Turntables - what makes the biggest difference?

[dkg999]

OK, I'm ready to take the turntable plunge! I'm looking at something fairly entry level, and looking at Pro-Ject as both audio dealers I trust and do business with carry that line.

Is it better to go with the Pro-Ject Debut III entry level table and spend money to upgrade to a better Grado cartridge, get the speed box controller, and a better phone pre

-or-

go with the Pro-Ject Expression with the better bearings, platter, and tonearm (and cartridge), the speed box controller, and spend less on a phone pre?

Looking to stay around $1000 for the set up.

What say the Polk Audio experts?

The rest of the system is Rogue Audio 66 Magnum pre, vertically bi-amped Magnepan 1.6QR with Parasound HCA-1500A amps, SVS SB12+ sub.

[ben62670]

The most important thing is setup. Isolation is key. I went with the project II, and it is one of the better upgradeable tables out there. You do need the acrylic platter from what I hear, and a new cartridge. Here is a link that another fellow Polkie sent me. I hope it is helpful. To be honest my cheapo Technics was about 95% of my Project III, but I don't have a very high end Phono Pre for now. I should be done with that within the week;) I didn't reaserch the Expression because it was out of my price range.
Ben

[Ricardo]

From the options you mention, I would go with the Expression and spend the balance in the best phono pre you can get; I don't think the speed controller will have as big as an impact as a better phono pre.

[strider]

If I was doing it over, instead of buying the Debut like I did, I would get the Expression. Figure you get the Debut for $300, you spend +/- $100 on a cartridge, the acrylic platters another $100, your within $100 of the Expression. You're still stuck with a much lower quality tonearm with very little adjustment ability, not to mention the differences in the plinth and bearings between the two.

[mhardy6647]

IMNSHO... you need absolute speed stability (i.e., precision) and as low a noise floor as you can get. Isolation you can do 'aftermarket' if need be. You want a very good platter bearing and a well made, "true", dense, uniform, and heavy platter. MDF? Fuggetaboutit. Again IMNSHO.

Absolute speed accuracy actually may be something you could live without, unless you have absolute pitch (a fair number of folks do -- not me) or if it's so far off as to be obvious.

For an arm you need something rigid and stable with minimal play in the bearings and vanishingly small friction.

Dollar for dollar, the Rega family of arms seems tough to beat. They turn up as OEMs on some very expensive turntables. No, I don't have one :-)

FWIW, this is my current vinyl mule.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/mhardy6647/DSCN5296.jpg

[billbillw]

There is a fine balance between table quality, tonearm, cartridge, and phono pre. If your table is too cheap, then a better cartridge will be a waste. A good phono pre is a waste on a low end cartridge. A fine table is a waste with a lousey tonearm. Likewise, a bad cartridge or phono pre on a high end table/tonearm will bring the entire setup down.

That said, I think the single biggest variable is the cartridge. I'd spend at least 1/4 of your budget on the cartridge.

For 1K, I would buy a slightly used midrange table/tonearm for around $500 and spend the rest on a cartridge and phono pre, split pretty evenly.

Just make sure to buy the table from a trusted Audiogon seller (or a local listing if available), and only if they have the original packaging if shipping is needed.

Buy the cartridge new, but a used phono pre is usually a safe bet.

[AndyGwis]

I just got a Music Hall MMF-5 off Agon. Hooked it up this morning by didn't have time to adjust and/or play anything. I'll let you know how it sounds once I get something spinning.

But, just from build quality, looks, etc. it should be a much better table than my admirably lil MMF-2.1.

[mhardy6647]

Cartridge and arm must mate. This is not really black magic; the compliance of the cartridge/cantilever/suspension system must complement the moving mass of the arm so that the resonance of the resulting system is not too high nor too low. The cartridge needs to be appropriately aligned in all three planes and tracked at the 'right' mass for the arm/cartridge system (towards the high end of the cartridge mfgr's 'recommended VTF range' is typically better).

Subjectively, the sound of the cartridge is extremely important and we really cannot offer much advice there ('cept to tell you what we like). I like the Grado sound; although I am using a Clearaudio MM at the moment. YMMV.


If your table is too cheap, then a better cartridge will be a waste. A good phono pre is a waste on a low end cartridge. A fine table is a waste with a lousey tonearm.
FIWIW, I would disagree with these as generalizations. A lousy arm is only a problem if it mistracks the cartridge you want to use (e.g., lots of sloppy play in the bearings). A lousy arm is better than none! A good phono pre won't make a 'low end cartridge' sound worse (as long as the preamp provides the correct loading for the cartridge), and the pre can be a good long term investment. A better cartridge on a cheap tt is only a waste if the tt's arm actively causes said cartridge to mistrack; you'll never get the potential of a fine cartridge on a crummy arm, but it might still satisfy you, and you can always upgrade later. Case in point. the very-low output, low-compliance Denon moving coil cartridges (e.g., the classic DL-103) mate really well with the mass-produced , heavy, chrome-plated, "S-shaped" tonearms of the 1970s Japanese massmarket tables.

Finally:

Remember: all generalizations are false... including this one.




:-)

[awe-d-o-file]

Match arm and cart (compliance)
Match cart and phono pre (gain/impedance)
Isolate the hell out of the table and properly set it up with a protractor. Make sure VTA is good as well.

I got out of vinyl because my Thorens 125/Rabco SL-8E/Grado Master (4.0mv) to Concerto Plus pre (3-12AX7 w/6X4 regulator, 4 passive EQ settings) wasn't close enough to my CDP in image, soundstage and dynamics. It was still superior in delivering more realisitic HF. That and the lack of new release on vinyl made me take a rest......until I get tons of money and can buy a first class setup.

[stuwee]

There is a fine balance between table quality, tonearm, cartridge, and phono pre. If your table is too cheap, then a better cartridge will be a waste. A good phono pre is a waste on a low end cartridge. A fine table is a waste with a lousey tonearm. Likewise, a bad cartridge or phono pre on a high end table/tonearm will bring the entire setup down.

That said, I think the single biggest variable is the cartridge. I'd spend at least 1/4 of your budget on the cartridge.

For 1K, I would buy a slightly used midrange table/tonearm for around $500 and spend the rest on a cartridge and phono pre, split pretty evenly.

Just make sure to buy the table from a trusted Audiogon seller (or a local listing if available), and only if they have the original packaging if shipping is needed.

Buy the cartridge new, but a used phono pre is usually a safe bet.

While I can agree with all the above posts, I agree with this one from billbillw the most, but Hey, I got lucky with my set up bought 30+ years ago, a tweak here and there, many, many carts later, still the heart of my main rig. The two best carts I've owned sound wise were trade offs of one form or another. I even had the Thorens on a cheap sub in NYC (space limitaions) and not a bass related issue reared it's ugly head once, (levels were at apt friendly levels) those are extreme examples btw. YMMV, get it right, and you'll be very happy, get it wrong and, I can't think of anything more hair pulling worthy. :( I know. I'll think good thoughts, vinyl is a blessing sound wise, some of my favorite music to show off a system with are $2 finds
Craig

[TroyD]

If 1K is your budget, hmmmmm, I'd look at going with buying the most table you can afford. Honestly, at that pricepoint, I'm thinking the Rega P3 is probably a pretty strong contender. If you were looking at 500, sure, I think that Music Hall and Project pretty much rule that pricepoint. At the 1K level, I dunno.....anyway, there are WAY too many variables to say this is more important that that. Vibration is the bane of vinyl playback and there are different schools of thought, suspended tables, mass loaded...etc etc, it just depends on what is right for you.

my .02

BDT

[SCompRacer]

Moving up in mass has always been a plus for me, both sonically and for vibration tolerance. Buy the best table you can, or one with an upgrade path. Do not skimp on the phono pre. Your dealer most likely has a trade up policy.

I read posts where Pro-Ject owners claim the speed control helped. Consistent speed with the needle in the groove is the key.

What type of floor is under the room your table will be in? I have the worst, hardwood with a rack that sits on it. In regards to isolation, I am extremely pleased with a used Gingko Cloud 11. I like it much better than the sandbox I tried. (I read some folks are making Gingko knockoffs using MDF and handballs as they are pricey new). A wall mounted shelf for a TT is not an option for me, but it might be for you.

[RutgersFTW]

This forum is (logically) a gearhead haven, but if by "taking the turntable plunge" it means you have no or very few LPs, I think enjoying the stock Pro-Ject Debut III and blowing $500 at record stores, yard sales, Goodwill, etc would get you much more excitement out of your TT.

No matter how nice of a turntable you have, it's useless without the software. As Ben sagely put it above, his "Technics was 95% of the Pro-Ject." Buy records, listen and love.

[Face]

$500 at yard sales and thrift stores around here would net you over 1,000 records.

[hearingimpared]

Doug, I'd go with option two. The better platter and bearings (a biggy with TTs) alone make big sonic improvements add in a better tonearm and cartridge and this becomes a no brainer.

Isolation is a big plus too and don't forget the most important thing . . . a REFLEX CLAMP! If the TT doesn't come with one haggle with the salesman to throw one in.

[hearingimpared]

This forum is (logically) a gearhead haven, but if by "taking the turntable plunge" it means you have no or very few LPs, I think enjoying the stock Pro-Ject Debut III and blowing $500 at record stores, yard sales, Goodwill, etc would get you much more excitement out of your TT.

No matter how nice of a turntable you have, it's useless without the software. As Ben sagely put it above, his "Technics was 95% of the Pro-Ject." Buy records, listen and love.

Software is the disappearing item. However at this juncture they (LPs) are pretty much easy to come by therefore, I would invest in at least a turntable that can do justice to the better software (audiophile grade) that will inevitably purchased down the line.

Plus, the better the hardware, the better even shitty or abused LPs sound.

[candyliquor35m]

wait for one to show up here and save your money until that happens

[RutgersFTW]

$500 at yard sales and thrift stores around here would net you over 1,000 records.
... which is one of the main reasons I love vinyl so much, but yard sale vinyl requires great diligence. My .10 find of last week (Steely Dan's Aja, unopened!) was come by through five hard milk crates of Time/Life Classics, Disney Sings, Olivia Newton John, and so forth. At my decent record store VG+ LPs run ~ $1.99 for common stuff to $7-20 for classics/sought after/etc (not including the $50+ Audiophile pressings). Though the thrill of the hunt isn't as palpable as in a neighbors front yard, my chance of leaving with two baskets full of records is greatly increased.

I just think the proportions are out of whack when I imagine a beautiful brand new Rega or equivalent with a glass platter and like, 15 records off to the side.

First the music, then the gear. I guess I'll never be an audiophile at this rate. :(

[hearingimpared]

Edit to post #16.

The last sentance of the first paragraph should read, "that will inevitably be purchased down the line."

[hearingimpared]

... which is one of the main reasons I love vinyl so much, but yard sale vinyl requires great diligence. My .10 find of last week (Steely Dan's Aja, unopened!) was come by through five hard milk crates of Time/Life Classics, Disney Sings, Olivia Newton John, and so forth. At my decent record store VG+ LPs run ~ $1.99 for common stuff to $7-20 for classics/sought after/etc (not including the $50+ Audiophile pressings). Though the thrill of the hunt isn't as palpable as in a neighbors front yard, my chance of leaving with two baskets full of records is greatly increased.

I just think the proportions are out of whack when I imagine a beautiful brand new Rega or equivalent with a glass platter and like, 15 records off to the side.

First the music, then the gear. I guess I'll never be an audiophile at this rate. :(

You are correct in your advice there Bro but once Doug or anyone gets that new TT I guarantee he'll go from 15 LPs to 500 in no time.

[RutgersFTW]

Software is the disappearing item. However at this juncture they (LPs) are pretty much easy to come by therefore, I would invest in at least a turntable that can do justice to the better software (audiophile grade) that will inevitably purchased down the line.

Plus, the better the hardware, the better even shitty or abused LPs sound.
I'll probably buy the Pro-Ject table he's looking at when (and if) my Dual goes tits up. My rig is very basic (Dual 1229, AT95E/Shure M97/Pickering XV15 carts, and a Nad PP1 pre), but I listen to it for several hours a day and am continually hearing new things in my favorite recordings.

[RutgersFTW]

You are correct in your advice there Bro but once Doug or anyone gets that new TT I guarantee he'll go from 15 LPs to 500 in no time.
:) That's good to know.

[Face]

Nothing wrong with a Rega P1 or P2 with a glass platter. NAD also sold some re-badged Rega models, the 533(Rega P1) and the 555(Rega P2). You can usually find them used in the $200-300 range.

[hearingimpared]

Nothing wrong with a Rega P1 or P2 with a glass platter. NAD also sold some re-badged Rega models, the 533(Rega P1) and the 555(Rega P2). You can usually find them used in the $200-300 range.

Just my opinion here, stay away from glass platters unless it is heavily leaded glass. I think acrylic/delrin or acrylic/delrin composite platters are the best.

[dkg999]

Thanks for all the advice, it is much appreciated. I'm going with the Pro-ject Expression, the speed box, and then start looking for a used good quality phono pre. I will be getting a clamp/puck thingy of some sort. I may pick up a few used LP's, but mainly interested in new releases.

At one time I had over 1000 LP's. Never again. I'm going to be pretty selective now.

And of course if I like it, I can upgrade it, right :D No sense analyzing it to death is there :o

[TroyD]

Just my .02, the speed controller, I've tried them on two ocaissions via VPI and haven't found them worth the cash. Money can be better spent elsewhere, IMO. An isolated motor, however, is worth it's weight in gold (or oil at this point).

BDT

[hearingimpared]

Just my .02, the speed controller, I've tried them on two ocaissions via VPI and haven't found them worth the cash.
BDT

Gotta disagree with you here Bro, my speed controller is worth it's weight in gold, without it the pitch would be so far off that it would be audibly unlistenable. Then again I only paid $200 for the used VPI PLC/Speed Controller.

[Dennis Gardner]

Gotta disagree with you here Bro, my speed controller is worth it's weight in gold, without it the pitch would be so far off that it would be audibly unlistenable. Then again I only paid $200 for the used VPI PLC/Speed Controller.


If it was that unlistenable, then isn't your turntable vendor using inferior regulated motors/power supplies? I would suspect the speed control is simply for tweakers, as most are within tolerances. The application itself requires better speed control than say my bathroom fan...............

[dkg999]

The speed box also lets you instantly change between 33 and 45's. It would also be nice if it would do 78's. I do have several hundred 78's from my grand parents on both sides that I am guessing you are not going to find some of that music anywhere else. I'm not sure if you need a different cartridge setup for 78's, but they look to be the same physical size (except much thicker!) as a normal LP. I also have a friend who has several thousand brand new 45's that were originally made for juke boxes. It might be fun to play some of those also. So in addition to the better power regulation (hey, cables do make a difference don't they!), I was also keying on the easy speed switch capabilities.

[hearingimpared]

If it was that unlistenable, then isn't your turntable vendor using inferior regulated motors/power supplies? I would suspect the speed control is simply for tweakers, as most are within tolerances. The application itself requires better speed control than say my bathroom fan...............

You know when you buy something that you add to your rig and it makes an improvment then you get used to listening to it . . . then you go back to the original configuration and the sonics sound way off? This is what I have experienced with and without the PLC/Pitch Adjustment piece.

VPI makes quality products. It could be that my SAMA motor is getting old and rickity and the pitch needs to be adjusted more but that is besides the point. I think anyone with a turntable whether they are a tweaker or not would benifit sonically from having the pitch set dead on however, I wouldn't pay $1000 for one.

BTW
The application itself requires better speed control than say my bathroom fan...............

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA:D

[Dennis Gardner]

I believe the turntable design lends itself to so many tweaks that result in miniscule improvements that the market has become saturated with gadgets that tweak the pocket of the seller/inventor/marketer way more than it improves the sound.

I know from experience that proper setup is almost as much voodoo as science......and my wallet is a thin as an '80s A&M pressing to prove it!!:D

[hearingimpared]

Well I think just like a 2 ch or HT rig improvements are cumulative it's the same with a TT. There are some tweaks on a TT that make dramatic differences/improvements; e.g. VTA/SRA, azimuth & zenith adjustments; just to name a few.

But that voodoo that I do can also be called do-do.:D

[mhardy6647]

... There are some tweaks on a TT that make dramatic differences/improvements; e.g. VTA/SRA, azimuth & zenith adjustments; just to name a few.


Yeah, but those are freebies!

[hearingimpared]

Yeah, but those are freebies!

Not necessarily.;)

[RutgersFTW]

I'm trying to figure out what it is you're discussing and what it costs - what's the purpose of this speed controller? Isn't that what a strobe/pitch control setting is for?

[strider]

I'm trying to figure out what it is you're discussing and what it costs - what's the purpose of this speed controller? Isn't that what a strobe/pitch control setting is for?

Pro-ject makes a speed control box called the Speed Box, one version costs about $129 and the upgraded one is around $500, IIRC. The two tables mentioned don't have captive power cords, but a wall wart power supply. When you use the Speed Box, it plugs in between the 'table and the wall wart, regulating the power supply to the table. Neither of the 2 Pro-ject 'tables have a strobe/pitch control.

[hearingimpared]

what's the purpose of this speed controller? Isn't that what a strobe/pitch control setting is for?

The purpose of the speed controller is to set the speed at exactly 33 1/3 or 45 rpm so that the pitch of the music is just right.

Most tables except some the '80s tables like Technics don't have a strobe on them. Some do come with a pitch control but you have to have your own strobe wheel to do the adjustment. There are several companies that make after market strobe wheels and testers. VPI & KAB are two that come to mind.

[billbillw]

Technically, these speed controllers are only used with turntables that have AC synchronous motors. That means the motor runs off 60Hz (50Hz in Europe) AC power. The speed of the motor is determined by the frequency of the AC. In North America, there is very little fluctuation of that 60Hz frequency, so turntable motors (the AC sync type anyway) are pretty darn close to the right speed without any speed control whatsoever. They spin at whatever RPM their design was for (600 RPM is common) and the pulleys are sized to give you 33.5 RPM at the platter. These type turntables usually have a separate pulley for 45RPM playback.

Most Tables that you see with speed/pitch controls built into the table are using DC motors, which are a totally different design.

Now, enter the external speed controller. It basically uses a circuit to recreate an adjustable AC frequency output to feed the motor. If your turntable is running a little slow (maybe from a slipping belt), then you can up the frequency to say 60.5Hz or whatever it takes to give you 33.5 RPM at the platter. You can also up the speed of the motor to do 45RPM without changing the belt to the second pulley.

Some swear by them, others say the improvement is marginal. It probably depends on the stability of the AC frequency in your area.

[hearingimpared]

Technically, these speed controllers are only used with turntables that have AC synchronous motors. That means the motor runs off 60Hz (50Hz in Europe) AC power. The speed of the motor is determined by the frequency of the AC. In North America, there is very little fluctuation of that 60Hz frequency, so turntable motors (the AC sync type anyway) are pretty darn close to the right speed without any speed control whatsoever. They spin at whatever RPM their design was for (600 RPM is common) and the pulleys are sized to give you 33.5 RPM at the platter. These type turntables usually have a separate pulley for 45RPM playback.

Most Tables that you see with speed/pitch controls built into the table are using DC motors, which are a totally different design.

Now, enter the external speed controller. It basically uses a circuit to recreate an adjustable AC frequency output to feed the motor. If your turntable is running a little slow (maybe from a slipping belt), then you can up the frequency to say 60.5Hz or whatever it takes to give you 33.5 RPM at the platter. You can also up the speed of the motor to do 45RPM without changing the belt to the second pulley.

Some swear by them, others say the improvement is marginal. It probably depends on the stability of the AC frequency in your area.

Great explaination Bill. That is why mine is called a "Power Line Conditioner" and it has two pots; one for 33 1/2 and one for 45 rpms. I swear by mine as just not a tweak.

[billbillw]

Great explaination Bill. That is why mine is called a "Power Line Conditioner" and it has two pots; one for 33 1/2 and one for 45 rpms. I swear by mine as just not a tweak.

IMHO, it takes a high end setup like yours to really benefit from these speed controllers. Its that last piece of the puzzle so to speak.

I still need to step up to the SAMA on mine, but with the almost negligible use my VPI has seen in the last year, its not a priority right now. Someday though, when I can setup my system properly again...

[RutgersFTW]

Technically, these speed controllers are only used with turntables that have AC synchronous motors. That means the motor runs off 60Hz (50Hz in Europe) AC power. The speed of the motor is determined by the frequency of the AC. In North America, there is very little fluctuation of that 60Hz frequency, so turntable motors (the AC sync type anyway) are pretty darn close to the right speed without any speed control whatsoever. They spin at whatever RPM their design was for (600 RPM is common) and the pulleys are sized to give you 33.5 RPM at the platter. These type turntables usually have a separate pulley for 45RPM playback.

Most Tables that you see with speed/pitch controls built into the table are using DC motors, which are a totally different design.

Now, enter the external speed controller. It basically uses a circuit to recreate an adjustable AC frequency output to feed the motor. If your turntable is running a little slow (maybe from a slipping belt), then you can up the frequency to say 60.5Hz or whatever it takes to give you 33.5 RPM at the platter. You can also up the speed of the motor to do 45RPM without changing the belt to the second pulley.

Some swear by them, others say the improvement is marginal. It probably depends on the stability of the AC frequency in your area.
That's a great answer. Thanks!

[SCompRacer]

That is why mine is called a "Power Line Conditioner" and it has two pots; one for 33 1/2 and one for 45 rpms. I swear by mine as just not a tweak.


I got one just in case your in the 'hood someday and stop in. ;) Mine has only one knob though. I gotta change the belt groove for 45. OK, it does help or I would have got rid of it.

I snagged a used KAB Speedstrobe over a year ago and highly recommend it.

[dkg999]

I just want to listen to music, on the hi-fi ;)

I'm trying to make this turntable thing as simple as possible! The reason I am going with Pro-ject is that both dealers I have a long relationship with will take care of any setup, check-ups on setup, change a cartridge for me and re-setup the table/tonearm, etc! I wish I had time to learn all about the setup and adjustments, get the tools to do it myself, etc, but I don't.

But I have to admit, this thread has provided a great education! My thanks to all!

[shack]

I just want to listen to music, on the hi-fi ;)

I'm trying to make this turntable thing as simple as possible! The reason I am going with Pro-ject is that both dealers I have a long relationship with will take care of any setup, check-ups on setup, change a cartridge for me and re-setup the table/tonearm, etc! I wish I had time to learn all about the setup and adjustments, get the tools to do it myself, etc, but I don't.

But I have to admit, this thread has provided a great education! My thanks to all!

I think you will be just fine. I'm currently using an entry level Goldring TT with a "better than the price would indicate' tone arm and cartridge. As I understand they are worth more that what the entire table sold for.

I don't have to tweek it at all. I clean the LP if it needs it, a quick sweep with the CF brush, drop the arm and enjoy. I am enjoying the hell out of it. Simplicity at its best (at least in vinyl circles).

[reeltrouble1]

, a quick sweep with the CF brush, drop the arm and enjoy.

I utilized this technique with great success during many high school dates.;)

If you don't think playing records is about sex then you have not had enough therapy.

RT1

[shack]

I utilized this technique with great success during many high school dates.;)

And since the the high school days....your technique is......?

[reeltrouble1]

same thing, never mess with anything that works..........

RT1

[shack]

So getting them to "loosen up" with some PGA punch in the back seat of the Galaxie parked on a dead end road should still work....:D

[dkg999]

The 1970 Torino fastback had the best back seat! A Bread 8 track tape in the deck, drop the arm, and you're in :D

[shack]

The 1970 Torino fastback had the best back seat!

Better than a 1965 Ford Galaxie 4 door? I don't think so. Slide the front seat all the way forward...well...lets just say there was ample room to "stretch out" and "recline". ;)

[hearingimpared]

Sorry guys but you are wrong. The '72 Riviera's back seat area was so large there was an echo back there.:eek:

[billbillw]

I can fold down the rear seats in our minivan and inflate a double size airbed...beat that ;)

[rayslifecycle]

Great Explanations by all in this post - quite an enjoyable read.........

but I have to say that the Volvo 240 wagon with the back seat down makes a 6'3"long flat deck.....fits the air mattress, gets better fuel economy then the minivan when driving to make-out point, has lots of room to "drop the arm" - and nothing says sexy like borrowing moms station wagon.....

[SCompRacer]

Better than a 1965 Ford Galaxie 4 door?

I had a '68 Galaxie 4 door! (The guy ordered it with a front bench seat, 390 and a 4 speed. My hand could slip while getting 2nd and 4th.:D) More room in the back, much better than my '68 Mustang fastback!!!!

[SCompRacer]

I'm trying to make this turntable thing as simple as possible!

Me too. Really! I don't have best VTA setting written on all my LP's like Joe.:D