Separate amps for mains and center channel.

[nellis8166]

hello people,
general question about amps and receivers. right now my entire system runs off my HK AVR525. the HK has pre-amp outs for all channels. i'm new at this, but could i get separate a separate amp or amps to run my LSI9's and LSIC??? Would I just have to run rca type cables from the hk's pre-amp outs to the separate amps. I assume I would then just run the speaker wire from the separate amps to speaks???
I love my HK, but I like to listen to things very loud and I have to push the HK hard, it's never failed or broke a sweat for that matter but how long can it keep that up??? I imagine the LSI's would sound better with more power as well???
what should i run for wattage into the LSI's???
Has anybody done something similar to this???
One more question, what are good power amps that will not cost me an arm and a leg, if there is such a thing.
Sorry to ask so many questions, I really appreciate everybody's help!!!

regards,
nat

[phuz]

Hi, I've done pretty much exactly what you are talking about for 2ch audio. I still use my HK AVR-510 to drive my center and rear speakers, but I use a seperate Rotel amp to drive my mains, and yes it is an improvment in my opinion.

You've got the right idea. A seperate amp or amps will feed your LSi's a healthy diet of good clean high current power. Your receiver is spec'd out to do handle 4 ohm loads moderately, but if you like to crank it, the LSi's have been known to dip down to 2ohms which could damage your receiver or speakers.

If you are looking for an upgrade path, a seperate amp and nice interconnects would be a nice step in the right direction in my opinion.

There are lots of recent posts about power amps that are good on a budget. Don't be affraid to get used stuff, as long as it works. Check into Carver, Rotel, Adcom, B&K, Parasound, and more. Search the forums and you'll find a wealth of information. ;)

Good luck and let us know what you decide on!

[RuSsMaN]

Yeah, what he said.

Cheers,
Rooster

[nellis8166]

Phuz,
thanks for the ideas, I just spent the last hour and a half on ebay looking at amps. i think i would lean to getting a three channel amp that will produce at least 200 watts of high current power for the LSI's. I like multi-channel music almost as much as I like plain old 2 channel stereo. sacds are amazing and becoming more readily available. thus the reason for a 3 channel amp. i'm not real good at this stuff, but wouldn't it make sense to run the lsi's from from the same high current power source for multi-channel music???
adcom's have the best reviews, sound like nice amps. one problem, way out of my budget. any slightly cheaper specific model suggestions???
anybody have any ideas the max amout of power i can run into the lsi's without blowing them???
don't mind going used, think i might hit some local pawn shops this weekend, funny what you will find in them sometimes.

regards,
nat

[RuSsMaN]

Phuz does use his Rotel amp for everything, HT, 2ch, it powers his LSi regardless of source material.

Max power? Hard to say really. As long as its unclipped power, I'm sure you can far exceed the 'recommended' ratings.

Adcom is affordable, you just need to be patient. 200wpc, thats a ton of power, and may not be needed for your application. I'm not saying don't go for it, but hopefully you have some friends (or a dealer) in your area, and you can demo some good amps with different power ratings. 60wpc and 200wpc aren't as far apart as you might think (relatively speaking).

New York? Surely we have some members in your local, for a test drive of seperates.

Cheers,
Rooster

[phuz]

3 channel amps can be a dream, if you can find them. They are tough to come by these days. Remember that if you see an amp labled as 200wpc, that is most likely the 8ohm rating. The lsi line is 4 ohm, so you need to add roughly 60-100% on TOP of that rating for true wattage. For example my rotel is advertized as 200wpc, but at 4ohms it's 330wpc!

If you listen to multichannel stuff as much as you say you do, then it would make sense to have amps for all 5 speakers. That is my long term goal, but I'm happy right now with a killer 2ch setup and it still sounds good in 5ch with the H/K pushing my center and rear speakers.

Ok back to the subject. Pawn shops and hi-fi shops that sell used/consignment gear are great places to get good deals. remember that you can do a ton of different combinations for a 5ch setup so even if you can't find a 3ch amp you have many more options.

I've found that the best thing to do is be patient, and look every day or at least every week online and at local shops. You'll find some killer deals that way.

Adcom is nice, and used ones usually aren't that expensive. What is your budget? Search around for details on the Parasound HCA-855a - it's a 5ch amp rated at 85wpc at 8 ohms and roughly 160wpc at 4ohms - thats *all channels driven at the same time* - so it's a really good amount of good clean power. You can find them for $350 or so used and $450 or so brand new (if you can find them).

Also remember, if you get a 2ch amp for your mains - you are taking a good sized load off of your receiver. So your receiver should be able to drive your center and rear speakers better than if it were pushing all 5. Theoretically at least. ;)

[phuz]

Russman has some good points. 200wpc is a lot of power. Try looking at current instead of watts. A 30amp current would be sufficient, right Russ?

BTW, the Rotel is used to push my LSi15s 100% of the time and nothing else. I feel ok for now letting my H/K handle the center and rear speakers.

[RuSsMaN]

Agreed Phuz.

Hey, give this guy some hope, tell him what you paid for your Rotel. Under 50 cents/watt if I remember correctly.

Cheers,
Rooster

[nellis8166]

phuz,
my intentions, like you, are to have separates for all five channels in time. my main goal right now is to take care of the mains and the center. Do you notice any difference when watching a movie with so much more power going to the mains???
Could either you or rooster explain the difference between wpc and current??? i guess i just don't understand how there may not be much difference between 60 and 200 wpc.
any ideas on good quality interconnects???
im going to look around for a parasound.
thanks for all your help guys, look forward to more of your ideas.

regards,
nat

[nellis8166]

oh yeah,
and phuz, if you don't mind me asking, what did you pay for your rotel???

[Zen Dragon]

Current is a component of watts. Watts is the accepted measurement of power. Power is derived by taking the voltage in a system, and multiplying it by the current in a system. Current is the rate at which voltage flows.
So as a real world example, if you are plugged into you home wall outlet with 110 Volts, and your device you have plugged in is drawing 5 amps of current, the power being used by the device is 550 Watts 110 Volts x 5 Amps = 550 watts. This is just an example to illustrate what watts is, your stereo obviously is not driving 60Hz wall electricity to the speakers.
As to how much power you need, it does not necessarily make sense, but 100watts from a high quality amp, is much louder than 100 watts from a multi-function rcvr, and 100 watts from a tube amp....well that can make your ears bleed :p
You'd be surprised the volume you will get out of a high quality 100 Watt seperate amp, and as mentioned before, most amps are rated into 8 ohms. The LSi's, being 4 ohms will draw more current, and thus more power. So be sure to look at the rating into 4 ohms.
HTH

[phuz]

Good stuff Zen Dragon. Thanks.

nellis8166 - I paid a whopping $150 for my Rotel amp. It was at a local hi-fi shop in their "b-stock" room. Turns out one of their customers had traded it on on some new equipment, and they didn't sell Rotel and didn't have much of a clue as to what it was.

I got lucky. :)

[nellis8166]

phuz,
i would say that you got lucky and then some. do you notice any difference in home theater with so much more power running to your mains???

regards,
nat

[gidrah]

Then again, phuz hooked up on a HELL of a deal. You're looking in the right direction though. I will also agree with used Carver, Parasound, Adcom, etc. For a 4 ohm load; with the exemption of Carver, check the weight. Big transformers are needed and are heavy.

[phuz]

Originally posted by nellis8166
phuz,
do you notice any difference in home theater with so much more power running to your mains???


Yeah, it sounds really good and really loud. ;)

It's tough for me to say because I've made so many changes to my system in the last year or so. I can tell you that you should at least expect better dynamic response, balance, and an overall fuller, more even spectrum of sound. With the channels powered by a seperate amp that is. My center channel still sounds a little hollow and "tin can'ish" being powered by my receiver.

I haven't heard the AVR-525 so I really can't tell you what to expect. I know of several hi-fi shops around here that will let you take home an amp for 3-7 days to see if you like it. Maybe you have the same option localy and can give it a try? See if the difference is important to you. In the long run I think it will be.

[nellis8166]

phuz,
there is only one really high end audio shops around here that would have the kind of stuff that i am looking for so i am going to hit that this weekend along with the pawn shops.

one more thing, what are you using for interconnects??? could you, or any other person for that matter make some suggestions???
appreciate all the help.

regards,
nat

[phuz]

nellis: check any mid-fi and home theater place in your area. Where in New York are you?

I'm using Monster Interlink Reference cables like the ones pictured here:

http://www.monstercable.com/productPage.asp?pin=129

Not sure if this is the case everywhere, but Circuit City stores where I am has 1m pairs for $69 :) ($99 regular)

[nellis8166]

Phuz,
i am in upstate, Buffalo...you know the land of ice and snow.
here we go, another question, what is the difference between mono and stereo operation in a power amp???
does this mean that you can turn the a two channel amp into a more powerful one channel amp to run one speak??? can all power amps do this or no??? I came accross a couple of Hafler amps cheap. i was thinking that i could a 280 power my mains and a smaller 220 in mono(if possible) to run my center????
I also saw an Acurus 3 channel amp that was in my price range. Any input on either of these???
Thanks for the link to the monster sight.

regards,
nat

[phuz]

There has to be more than just one place in Buffalo to check out! Thats a pretty good sized city isn't it?

Yes most if not all 2ch amps can be bridged into a single, more powerful, mono channel. 6ch amps can be configured as 3, 4, 5 or 6 channels I think. This is what I mean earlier when I said there are many different ways to do this.

Hafler is good stuff from what I've heard. I've never heard of Acurus 3 but I'm sure there is some info out on the web. Check audioreview.com or just search google.com for the brand and any details/reviews should come up.

[nellis8166]

Phuz,
Found a couple of Parasound HCA855a's for $400 new.Can you operate these running only three channels, or do all five channels have to be run for the unit to operate???

Checked out the reviews on the Acurus unit and it has almost a perfect score. Just by reviews and price i would really like to demo these two units. buffalo is a good sized town, just going to have to dig a little deeper.

Another thing I am contimplating is if i was to go with a parasound i think that i would use it just to run the power hungry LSI's if you can run it on three channel operation. I would use the HK to run my surrounds and rears. I'm just afrain in home theater the surrounds would be drowned out by the front and mains. so many choices, it makes my head spin. what do you think???

[RuSsMaN]

I'd use all 5 channels on your 3 mains, if you wanted to. Bi-amp the mains, use the 5th channel on the center.

I've heard good things about Acurus, I think Madmax and Joe Logston own some of those amps.

Cheers,
Russ

[phuz]

Russman is correct. I think you can bridge the Parasound to = 3 channels for your mains and center. If not bi-amping would be the way to go.

Don't worry about the front drowning out the rear. When you calibrate your system you will set the levels so that they all match.

I still want one of those HCA855a's! (gotta get a job first though heheh)

[inspire]

oh...oh...Time to get Preamp.!!
adding a power amp to the A/V receiver doesn't really improve the sound quality. I've tried #### of different setups.
It will just play LOUDER by adding a power amp. One important thing ..Manufacturer don't really spend $ on pre-outs.
If you think by adding a nice power amp to the Preout from your AV receiver, think again.
Audiopiles will always go for dedicated pre/pro.

[MxStYlEpOlKmAn]

Originally posted by inspire
Audiopiles will always go for dedicated pre/pro.

Well i guess im an exception - im an Audio Enthusiest

[phuz]

Originally posted by inspire
oh...oh...Time to get Preamp.!!
adding a power amp to the A/V receiver doesn't really improve the sound quality.

I beg to differ, and I believe 9 out of 10 audio enthusiasts will agree with me. ;)

Especially when dealing with low impedance speakers like the LSi line.

[wlrandall]

I noticed a huge difference when I biamped my mains. Not wanting to "color" the sound I went with an amp from the same manufacturer. In addition, the power output of my receiver and the aux amp are almost equal, didn't have to do anything to balance the two. The H/K PA2000 can be had for $400 if you shop around.

Wally

[Ron-P]

but could i get separate a separate amp or amps to run my LSI9's and LSIC???
I run 4 Adcom stereo amps off my Marantz. 3 bi-amp my mains and center while the 4th runs the surrounds.


adding a power amp to the A/V receiver doesn't really improve the sound quality.
This statement could not be more wrong. Huge sound quality improvement over just a receiver.


Peace Out~:D

[carvinman1]

Adding an Aragon amp to my Outlaw 1050 receiver to power my mains was a big improvement. The Outlaw sounded good, but the amp really made my RT800i's come to life.

Danny

[inspire]

how many people here prefer
1. A/V receiver + amp
2.Dedicated pre amp + amp

I'm tell you guyz. Lots of people think they r makin huge difference cuz its Playing louder than before...I'm taking bout the detailed sound. but if u like the new sound, what can i say. everyone has different teste.

[phuz]

We're talking about detail and dynamics, and probably much more as well.

Nobody said a receiver+amp was better than a pre/pro+amp, we're saying that a receiver+amp is better than just a receiver. Especially when dealing with speakers that demand a lot.

[inspire]

but seriously how many people play louder than the Reference Volume level??!! I'm talking about average receiver that is capable of 100watts Per channels. I think it's an overkill.
oh and I also can't understand people who has cheap receiver and trying to hook up with 3x the cost of the receiver alone. y would they do that?? there r ### of quality preamps out there, which doesn't cost alot.

[danger boy]

I have to agree.. i think still the pre-pro-amp is the way to go.. but not all of us have that kind of set up. I hope to in the next couple of years to get away from my receiver and go that route.

As for what i prefer. yeah prefer pre-pro-amp. but what I have and can afford is, receiver with external amps.

[danger boy]

Originally posted by inspire

oh and I also can't understand people who has cheap receiver and trying to hook up with 3x the cost of the receiver alone. y would they do that?? there r ### of quality preamps out there, which doesn't cost alot.

Inspire, welcome.

I guess not all of us can afford a system with seperate pre-pro-amps units. yeah i dont' think anyone here will disagree that they are better. some of us go the receiver route.. for 1 it's less expensive. 2 that's what we prefer, 3 it's less hassle setting things up than with seperates. 4 I think more people have receivers in their homes than have seperates. there again, not debating you on this point. just stating a point.

[danger boy]

Inspire what costs a small amount to you.. could be a huge amount of $$ to someone else. My total system costs me about $2800 that does not include a TV. that was for all 6 Polk speakers, a Marantz receiver, Toshiba DVD player and two Marantz mono block amps. that's a big amount of $ to me. some others on here... that may be pocket change.

I'm sure no one on here would turn down buying Krell or Mark Levinson amps if they could afford em.

[danger boy]

Ok, i'm done ranting for one night. i've got a party to go to.. and alcohol to consume.. :p

[MxStYlEpOlKmAn]

Originally posted by inspire
but seriously how many people play louder than the Reference Volume level??!! I'm talking about average receiver that is capable of 100watts Per channels. I think it's an overkill.
oh and I also can't understand people who has cheap receiver and trying to hook up with 3x the cost of the receiver alone. y would they do that?? there r ### of quality preamps out there, which doesn't cost alot.

Let me ask u this - Just because U walk down a road of gold, does that mean ur happy? - that being said, many guys are happy with a cheapo receiver, and sometimes that cheapo receiver mated with cheapo amps, and low-mid class speakers, i mean this system to them like me and many others is their respect, it may not of cost alot to others, but they respect it because they worked for it, and bought it with their own money! That being said, I am buying seperate amps, although, I am not going to buy a pre/pro - why? Because I dont have the cash, and Personally - I dont see the point. Newayz, I am just rambling

oh yeah, if i could play reference volume right now, id be on it - when u pay for something, why not get its all? lol

[MxStYlEpOlKmAn]

Originally posted by inspire
how many people here prefer
1. A/V receiver + amp
2.Dedicated pre amp + amp

I'm tell you guyz. Lots of people think they r makin huge difference cuz its Playing louder than before...I'm taking bout the detailed sound. but if u like the new sound, what can i say. everyone has different teste.

I totally disagree, lol! If I buy a sherwood 100 dollar receiver, and then I buy (3) 500 wat 2 channel amps to hook up to it, will the sound only be louder, and not better - I DO NOT THINK SO! there is no way that u can say the sound will not be better, im not trying to get flamed, im just spreading an opinion - either that or i need sleep! LOL! I wish my receiver played louder, btw - thats why I bought the adcom, but now I gotta sale the receiver and get the next line up receiver...ohh well!

[MxStYlEpOlKmAn]

To end it all - the only thing I have noticed about alot of preamps is how the new ones are so fastly out of date, but cost so much! outlaw's is 1000 i think, and the video is out of date, so is alot of adcom's - I mean why spend cash on a new out of date product? But w/e...jus spreadin my 2 cents worth of change

[MxStYlEpOlKmAn]

Originally posted by danger boy
Ok, i'm done ranting for one night. i've got a party to go to.. and alcohol to consume.. :p

Polk to fry, drivers to blow, and tweeters to kill...muahahha, as long as their not urs right? party on! everyone go over to dangers!

BTW - INSPIRE...I want ur pre/pro and amp...argh! lol! B&K is some nice junk! *looks at adcom*...ohh well...lol

[inspire]

the point is not the $!
I used to own onkyo 787 and sony receiver(can't even remember its model name cuz it's old and gave to my brother.) They were all great receiver.
ok now. without the power amp. I used volume level between 50-60 for comfortable sound mostly during movie.
oh and yea. I also thought about adding a nice power amp to improve sound but the receiver can do so much.(spec wise)
so its like choice of buying a better receiver or pre/pro.
Can't justify buying Expensive amp to cheap receiver. I just can't.
I would just buy Better receiver!
oh and by the way. what was the reason you guyz bought seprate amps for your receivers???! Wanted play further than reference level or the speakers are like Martin Logans???

[RuSsMaN]

Ok, so some like it, some don't.

Quit typing the same **** over and over until you FORCE your opinion on someone, or feel some trivial sense of victory, and go listen to those killer rigs.

[scottvamp]

Ya - you tell tell'em Russman. Stop typing and go listen to your killer systems. Losers!!!!:lol:

[inspire]

hey that's not nice to say "****" for my replies.
I'm pretty sure there are lot's folks who wants to know by adding a power amp to their receiver will make huge differences. I know I was. when I only had receiver alone. so it's important issue that we should talk bout before some1 buy expensive amp and later regret buying it cuz they only heard good stuffs through online.
some1 should point out negatives also.

[inspire]

I ain't here to offend no1, I just want to talk bout the reason of adding power amp to the receiver. that's all~

[phuz]

Originally posted by inspire
I just want to talk bout the reason of adding power amp to the receiver. that's all~

Because it often sounds better than just a recevier, especially when using speakers that are 4ohms or lower.

Because it's a midway point in an upgrade path.

Because it looks cool.

Because you want to.

[inspire]

that is a good answer i cannot disagree..haha

[scottvamp]

Funny - when I added a 2ch power amp to my center channel there was no love. The power amp was made especially for my reciever. An a few people own this reciever. You know were just kidding. But the $hit gets pretty deep in here sometimes.;)

[nellis8166]

who is right??? i am now having second thoughts on buying a separate amp to bi-amp my LSI9s and LSIC. after all this debate i think i am just going to have to demo some amps and see if it is worth it to me.
as far as the receiver vs. dedicated pre-amp subject, i would love to use that kind of set-up, IF i could afford it. my biggest issue is getting the most bang for my buck. i've put about 3k into my home theater in the last couple of months. it sounds great, but as we all know the LSI's are very power hungry. they need more power to really shine. Would i like a separate preamp and amp, yes, do i have the money,no. next best thing, buy a power amp now that i can afford and upgrade as time goes on. that's my plan.
going to look at a HK Signature 2.1 today, classified add in the paper, guy wants $400 for it. anybody had any expereiance with this amp???
regards,
nat

[inspire]

oh no. the amp will sound differently on different application.
I don't recommend blind buying on audio equipment. Specially if u can't return it.! It may sound great on some1's ear might sound too bright, too muddy, or no bass improvement at all to u.

[TroyD]

Talk about a subject that we have beaten to death.

I use my receiver as a preamp for my mains and center. It sounds better to me, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

BDT

[inspire]

my previous set up was onkyo787 + marantz mm9000 amp.
Sure played Louder than before, but I couldn't find any sound quality improvement. I also tried to biamp my CS400i center from reciever and power amp. no difference noticed. My local HFshop told me about the issue of using Preout from receiver and Manufacture will not focus on preouts sound quality. I was like Heck with it but later realize what he meant. He told me that "if u want to buy amp for your receiver simply it's not loud enough, u can buy. but don't expect it will sound better than what your receiver's spec can handle.

[MxStYlEpOlKmAn]

Originally posted by inspire
my previous set up was onkyo787 + marantz mm9000 amp.
Sure played Louder than before, but I couldn't find any sound quality improvement. I also tried to biamp my CS400i center from reciever and power amp. no difference noticed. My local HFshop told me about the issue of using Preout from receiver and Manufacture will not focus on preouts sound quality. I was like Heck with it but later realize what he meant. He told me that "if u want to buy amp for your receiver simply it's not loud enough, u can buy. but don't expect it will sound better than what your receiver's spec can handle.

DO WAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ur local hifi shop - so if cc tells me that subwoofers dont make a difference....do they?

[nellis8166]

yikes,
can't quite figure out how a simple question turned into all this. very confused at this point. think that some might take this a little too far. you have to remember that i am relatively new at this, any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
regards,
nat

[TroyD]

Nat, here is what you do. Go to a local shop and have them hook up amps to a receiver and do an a/b test. If you like what you hear than go with it.

Opinions are like *******s, everybody has one but in the end, it's your ears, your money and your rig. The last thing you want to worry about is what someone else thinks of your rig, if you dig the way it sounds then go with it.

BDT

[nellis8166]

Well said Troy, couldn't have said it better myself. I went to a local hifi shop today and listened to various amps all through a HK pre-amp. By far the best that i heard in my price range was a Adcom GFA7400. They have a brand new one that was used as a demo for cheap. Going to get it tomorrow and they are going to let me test it with my set-up for a week. Really looking forward to it.
Regards,
Nat