IOC officially investigating underage Chinese gymnast

[petrym]

The International Olympic Committee has ordered an investigation into mounting allegations that Chinese authorities covered up the true age of their gold-medal winning gymnastics star because she was too young to compete.

An IOC official told The Times that because of "discrepancies" that have come to light about the age of He Kexin, the host nation’s darling who won gold in both team and individual events, an official inquiry has been launched that could result in the gymnast being stripped of her medals.

The investigation was triggered as a US computer expert claimed today to have uncovered Chinese government documents that he says prove she is only 14 - making her ineligible to compete in the Olympics - rather than 16, as officials in Beijing insist is her age.

Mike Walker, a computer security expert, told The Times how he tracked down two documents that he says had been removed from a Chinese government website. The documents, he said, stated that He’s birth date was January 1 1994 - making her 14 - and not January 1 1992, which is printed in her passport.


Complete article here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/olympics/article4583174.ece)

[Demiurge]

The IOC can't do shit.

[obieone]

+1. Bunch of EUNUCHS! Like ANYone is gonna make China confess. LOL.

[Demiurge]

+1. Bunch of EUNUCHS! Like ANYone is gonna make China confess. LOL.

Yep, that's the amusing thing, it's CHINA, they can say how old anyone is. The Chinese government won't let the IOC get anywhere near any real information and they can make up whatever they want.

We've either got to accept they're a bunch of cheats or stop allowing communists to host the Olympics.

[Polk user]

Yep, that's the amusing thing, it's CHINA, they can say how old anyone is. The Chinese government won't let the IOC get anywhere near any real information and they can make up whatever they want.

We've either got to accept they're a bunch of cheats or stop allowing communists to host the Olympics.


I heard the IOC is gonna give the 2020 Olympics to Hezbollah in the West Bank. They are nothing but U.N. washouts.

[ttomp]

Communists shouldn't be allowed to host any international event , especially the chinese.

[Danny Tse]

The Chinese gov't can produce any document they want that can prove the real age of the gymnast. I don't see the IOC going anywhere with its investigation. Maybe if the IOC can waterboard the suspected gymnast into telling the truth....

Mr. "Loud Mouth" Bella Karolyi certainly had no problem coaching a 14 year old Nadia Comaneci, or "half woman" as he called them, to winning Olympic gold medals.

[hoosier21]

is this age limit for all events or just gymnastics?

[petrym]

Mr. "Loud Mouth" Bella Karolyi certainly had no problem coaching a 14 year old Nadia Comaneci, or "half woman" as he called them, to winning Olympic gold medals.

He coached a 14 year-old Nadia because that was the legal age limit back then. It went up to 15 and now it's 16 years old.



is this age limit for all events or just gymnastics?
Just for gymnastics right now.

[brettw22]

I heard the IOC is gonna give the 2020 Olympics to Hezbollah in the West Bank...LOL..........very nice........

[obieone]

For those that want to see the cause of the hubub

http://www.wretch.cc/blog/billypan101/11740056

[Face]

For those that want to see the cause of the hubub

http://www.wretch.cc/blog/billypan101/11740056

I'm not sure if many of us here could read that. :confused:

[seeclear]

I'm not sure if many of us here could read that. :confused:

There was an english-language article about halfway down the page.

[exalted512]

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news;_ylt=Aj.l_0Fg7h8KG3HaPwDTglXQ1Zl4?slug=ap-gym-underagechinese&prov=ap&type=lgns
-Cody

[mrbigbluelight]

For those that want to see the cause of the hubub

http://www.wretch.cc/blog/billypan101/11740056

That'll get you 5 to 10 in most states.

[Demiurge]

It will ultimately come down to whether the IOC will be able to accept internet cache evidence of information being deleted/changed on the Chinese government website (or not) as proof of these two girls being too young. If these medals are stripped, such an act will be unprecedented in the annals of Olympic crushing blows to cheaters (such as those doping in the past), and will heap global shame upon a government who supposedly considers "honor" their highest virtue.

I'd be floored if anything comes of it.

[obieone]

The IOC may strip the medals on paper, but I seriously DOUBT they'll get the ACTUAL medals back. Not unless they want to wade thru a couple of million ARMED soldiers:p

[shack]

NOTHING will happen. If necessary the Chinese govt. will provide as much "legal" documentation as necessary to prove the age of the gymnast in question. Does anybody really thing that the IOC will dispute the documentation given to them?

[Jstas]

I think they should cut her in half and count the rings. THEN they will know how old she is for sure!

[Demiurge]

I think they should cut her in half and count the rings. THEN they will know how old she is for sure!

I know she's younger than 16, but I don't think she's twee.

[ND13]

is this age limit for all events or just gymnastics?

Soccer has a max 23 yr old limit this Olympics, but they allowed each team to have up to three over age players.......SO WHY EVEN HAVE THE FRIGGIN RULE!!!:rolleyes:

[obieone]

I don't believe the Olympics is a good idea. Too much competition. What about the SELF-ESTEEM of the athletes that DON'T win?
I think they deserve a BIG HUG!:p

[VSchneider]

Ok, it's been done:


"The information we have received seems satisfactory in terms of the correct documentation — including birth certificates."

So there you go, they only look 14.

[Demiurge]

Ok, it's been done:


So there you go, they only look 14.

Who makes Chinese birth certificates? ;)

[VSchneider]

Funny you should ask, because Mr. Lu only knows the origin of the passport and the ID card.


Surely it's not possible that these documents are still not sufficient proof of her [He Kexin's] birthdate?... The passports were issued by the Chinese Foreign Ministry. The identity card was issued by China's Ministry of Public Security. If these valid documents are not enough to clarify this problem, then what will you believe?

[danger boy]

14 years old? she looks 12 to me :p

[doggie750]

14 or 16...........she's still good! Why challenge her ability? Congratulation to her.

[ND13]

Quote:
Originally Posted by China coach Lu Shanzan
Surely it's not possible that these documents are still not sufficient proof of her [He Kexin's] birthdate?... The passports were issued by the Chinese Foreign Ministry. The identity card was issued by China's Ministry of Public Security. If these valid documents are not enough to clarify this problem, then what will you believe?

Sure the hell not the Chinese gubment.

[Demiurge]

14 or 16...........she's still good! Why challenge her ability? Congratulation to her.

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

[sucks2beme]

Who really cares. Let me know when they stop putting lead in
all their toys and foodstuffs for export. Or stop making counterfeit
pills that cause countless deaths here in the U.S. I'm sure a little
fib about age is gonna keep anyone over there up at night.
I guess young gilrs in gymnastics is better than chaining them
to a sewing machine at the Levi's factory.

Damn I'm feeling angry today. That felt goooooood!

[BeRad]

Communists shouldn't be allowed to host any international event , especially the chinese.

But should they still be allowed to host the manufacture of the majority of the consumer goods (non food) that you buy?

China makes our lives more affordable! Let them do what they want. If anyone can cheat and get away with it, they deserve whatever they get, good or bad.

It's kind of like pulling of a successful bank robbery. Sure, its wrong, but you gotta respect the dedication and planning. :)

[haimoc]

14 or 16...........she's still good! Why challenge her ability? Congratulation to her.


I agree... :)

[devani]

But should they still be allowed to host the manufacture of the majority of the consumer goods (non food) that you buy?

China makes our lives more affordable! Let them do what they want. If anyone can cheat and get away with it, they deserve whatever they get, good or bad.

It's kind of like pulling of a successful bank robbery. Sure, its wrong, but you gotta respect the dedication and planning. :)

I am sure that you have one of these cars in your garage....holy :eek::eek: honestly are you a communist??

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/kitory/sceoB6_p75mv.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/kitory/sceo_p75mv_real-1.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/kitory/sceo_p75mv.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/kitory/cr-v.jpg

[BeRad]

I am sure that you have one of these cars in your garage....holy :eek::eek: honestly are you a communist??

No I haven't been able to export one yet ;) . Nothing beats Domestic for personal vehicles (except Japanese, Italian, German, British, Sweedish... well most of Europe I guess) lol

I am not a communist but I do believe in certain aspects of communism. Mainly, I have nothing against Communists or countries that currently use that system. I only hold negative feelings towards people who directly or indirectly affect me in a negative way, not simply because of where they live or what political system they like.

[Norm Apter]

And while it may be irrelevant to this discussion and a bit of a derail, there's really nothing "communist" about China these days except for the name of the party in control. Even the ideology of communism is more or less irrelevant, not even believed in by the party elite, ever since the end of the Cultural Revolution (1966-76) and the death of Mao in 1976.

One-party system, dictatorship, authoritarian regime... take your pick. But when I see the term "communist" I think of a party-state that owns all of the means of production, and thats hardly the case in China these days. Anyone who goes there for the first time might be shocked by the amount of entreprenurial activity going on, from the street vendor up to proprietors of luxurious goods and real estate agents. Not an exact replica of U.S. style capitalism, but much closer to it any pure form of communism would be.

Its kind of a messy system for which there is no blueprint. But to label it communist is to deny the great changes that have taken place over the past 30 years and made China the economic powerhouse that it is today.

[Demiurge]

It's the People's Republic of China and it's run by the Communist Party of China. Any kind of glossy spin you want to put on it, they're still communist. They are becoming more "westernized," to the dismay of the Chinese government. It's hard to control that many people once they start getting a taste of freedom.

Anyone claiming there isn't anything communist about China just needs to watch the way these olympics have been run and that's enough ammo to laugh that claim right out of the room. I'll give you that they're much more socialist than they are communist, either way neither give the people much freedom or individuality.

[Norm Apter]

I'm not "putting any spin on it"; nor am I making any excuses for the Chinese government. I've spent a fair amount of time there and I have pretty negative things to say about how the government treats the people.

My point is that "communism" defined as a economic system, in the original sense that Marx and Engels used it, is largely dead in China. As I said, if you're talking politics, it would be more appropriate to use the term authoritarian or single-party regime than communism or even socialism. If you're going to use the term communism to describe whats going on in China you need to go back to the 1950s, 60s and 70s. Thats all I'm saying.

[Demiurge]

If it's not socialism or communism, what is it...?

[Norm Apter]

If it's not socialism or communism, what is it...?

Thats actually a great question.

As I said in my first post, the party-state is following this historically unprecedented (to the best of my knowledge) path for which there is no blueprint. The state still has large control over key industries, but ever since the early 1980s, an ever increasing number of SOE (state-owned enterprises) have gone bankrupt and the government has not bailed them out or allowed them to continue running at a loss, as it would have in the past. In their place, has been a tremendous growth of private businesses.

The tricky thing about analyzing China, in my view, is that there isn't this clear line of demarcation between state and society that we tend to see in the European historical experience. While that line can be blurry even in the West (think of big business relationships to Western governments), in China the connections that overspread these two entities are even more central to how the whole economy works, at least on the top. But, at the same time, there is just this explosion of entreprenurial activity from all sectors (agricultural, industrial, service, technology) that is tremendously exciting and dynamic. Take a walk in the big cities and you might get the sense that they have the capitalist bug even more than Western countries that adhere officially and explicitly to a free-market system. The Communist Party, especially since the Tiananmen Square Massacre in 1989, is aware that communist ideology is completely bankrupt; in its place it has relied on stirring up nationalism and doing it best to ensure continuous economic growth. And thus it has taken great pains to give individuals ever more space to increase their material fortunes. There has been a tremendous growth in the amount of personal space and freedom of choice (the ability to switch jobs, relocate, purchase housing) since that point. Of course that freedom ends abruptly as soon as one chooses to challenge the state's right to rule, either directly or even indirectly.

Well, to get back to your question, I remember reading a book called China Wakes that was written by Nicolas Kristoff in 1994 or so. He proposed the term "Marxist-Capitalism" (as a play on market-capitalism) to illustrate the paradoxical nature of a sort of Leninist one-party model combined with a quasi-capitalist system. I'm not saying that this is the best term to describe whats going on, but it does get at the heart of the oxymoronic tendencies in China's political economy.

Norm

[Demiurge]

In a way it was really more of a rhetorical question. I don't bite on the cultural relativism and prefer to call a duck a duck. You see, Communism is not really a monolithic philosophy at all. The Chinese have refined Communism greatly over the past few decades, to the point of angering the now former Soviets. Hu Jintao has made open statements calling men like Mikhail Gorbachev betrayers of Socialism.

It's very unwise to assume that Chinese invitation of foreign investment, mainly for the purposes of bolstering Chinese infrastructure, is anything less than a distraction from their unquestionable Marxist goals as a government.

There are also plenty of wealthy Chinese businessmen, a point I don't dispute, however the income gap is artificially generated by the Chinese government. They still oversee who gets what.

Ultimately, China is a still a Communist nation at the government level. I don't believe that the Chinese people are all Communist.

[Norm Apter]

OK, Demi, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

I understand communism as Marx defined it: state ownership of both the means of production and the relations of production (i.e. labor) which does not exist or, at the most, exists only on a very limited scale in China today. The state does not own labor power as it did from the 1950s to the 1970s, evidenced by the fact that communes, collectives, and state-owned enterprises have been systematically dismantled since the onset of the Post-Mao Reform era. To me, thats a fundamental criterion of communism that is missing in China today.

Again, I'm not sure what you mean by the state's "Marxist goals." To the best of my knowledge, Lenin was the one who introduced the political component of communism such as "democratic centralism"; Marx's ideas were rather undefined on the form of the party-state. I would concur that the Leninist spirit of party control/supervision is very alive today, but to imply that China wants to push back to the days of Marxist ideological imperatives as seen in the economic organization of communes, collectives and state-owned enterprises seems mistaken.

I think a lot of us tend to assume that the Party has this big master plan and has master control over everything. I don't think so at all. Its not just that there are number of wealthy businessmen. There's this huge middle class (hundreds of millions) that has emerged over the past few decades. And most important, the state does not micro-manage the economy the way it used to. Yes, they retain ultimate control (for example if someone crosses the political line the government can easily step in and confiscate their wealth), but there is tremendous economic freedom (though not political freedom) for average people in China today. If you were to spend some time there, this economic activity, as I said, is really striking. You can really do pretty much whatever you like as long as you don't challenge the government.

As I see it, there's no such thing as a "communist nation at a government level" -- to me, without those essential components of communism (state ownership of the means of production and of the relations of production) we best call it an authoritarian regime or single-party regime. I do agree with you that the state has particular goals during the introduction of the economic reforms. I disagree with you though that it plans to adhere to or reintroduce Marxist goals -- its underlying goal is to preserve its own power, nothing more, nothing less. There's nothing Marxist about that. It a "statist" ideology.

Anyway, thats why I take issue with labeling it a communist state. But if you define communism or Marxism in a different way from me, it can be an open question. If you reject my definition of communism or Marxism, then I guess I just don't know how you are defining those terms. That seems to be the sticking point.

[shack]

All of this BS because of one little "alleged" underage gymnast :confused: :rolleyes: