Nissan GT-R...

[Serendipity]

Apparently using certain features of the car voids your warranty :rolleyes:

http://www.fquick.com/blog/Launch_control_on_the_GT-R_voids_your_warranty_/2047

I can understand when they say "Racing voids your warranty," but pressing a user accessible button on the dash?

Next thing you know changing your own oil will void the warranty ;)

[heiney9]

Next thing you know changing your own oil will void the warranty ;)

Actually, BMW, MERCEDES, JAGUAR, AUDI, VOLKSWAGEN do not have dip sticks on the 2009 model cars. They want you to come to the dealership to have your oil checked and changed. You can, for an additional charge, buy a dip stick and unscrew a cap where you can insert it inside the engine compartment.

Dealerships apparently don't make enough money on repairs these days. :mad:

H9

[Serendipity]

Are you serious? They want to prevent you from changing your own oil?

Ridiculous...

[Demiurge]

Are you serious? They want to prevent you from changing your own oil?

Ridiculous...

Why?

[Serendipity]

Why?

Hmm, so the dealership can make more money?

[VSchneider]

Somehow I think people who will actually buy the $72K GT-R will not be too worried about this. The "automatic launch control" is a racing feature, and we already know that "Racing voids your warranty".

[unc2701]

I'm pretty sure driving off-road voids the warranty a lot of cars (per the manual), yet people still buy 4x4s. Nothing new here.

[bobman1235]

Discouraging changing your own oil is one thing. Removing the dipstick so you can't CHECK your own oil is stupid. These designers tend to only think of these crs as "new", neglecting the idea that some day they will have 100k miles on them and may burn oil and whatnot. So while it's no big deal to not have a dipstick on your 1-year old car with 25k miles on it when everything's working perfectly, it's still shortsighted.

[Demiurge]

Hmm, so the dealership can make more money?

No, I mean, why is it ridiculous? There's always the option of not buying the car and getting one that you can change your own oil on. If that's a big selling point for you....The manufacturers are only hurting themselves if this is a bad move.

With the exception of Volkswagen, the afforementioned manufacturers all make models that are considered luxury cars.

[heiney9]

Discouraging changing your own oil is one thing. Removing the dipstick so you can't CHECK your own oil is stupid. These designers tend to only think of these crs as "new", neglecting the idea that some day they will have 100k miles on them and may burn oil and whatnot. So while it's no big deal to not have a dipstick on your 1-year old car with 25k miles on it when everything's working perfectly, it's still shortsighted.

I agree. Atleast (and this is no excuse) you can purchase a dip stick to use. Next they will be taking the lug nuts off wheels so that is only a dealer serviceable item as well. I am a big fan or European cars but this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Only thing is these makes come with 3 years no cost maintenance......................but still. Can't wait to hear about the first lawsuit against the manufacturer because of a defect and oil starvation. The consumer just has to say "I had no way to check the oil level on a regular basis".

H9

[bobman1235]

Nissan's Japanese :)

[ND13]

A "VERY" well managed "FULL SERVICE"(sales, service, parts, body shop) new car dealership's profits margins aren't much better than a grocery store these days. In almost 20 years of being in the business, I've seen the margin drop virtually every year. They took from the dealer and put the difference into rebates. You folks out there that think a new car has several thousands of dollars of mark-up in them need to educate yourselves. A $20K car might have $1000-1600 of mark-up in it, depending on added options. A volume dealer will sometimes receive dealer incentives for reaching goals, but they will usually give up what little they have to play with in order to get to that goal(robbing Peter to pay Paul). Used cars CAN be a different story, but the banks put limits on how much can be financed(determined by credit rating, trade-in values, etc.)

[heiney9]

That is true Noel, but I also know that the service department IS the profit center for a dealership. To charge someone $75 to hook a computer up to a car and print out fault codes is ridiculous. It's $75 for the print out plus the labor just to tell you what's wrong.

Certainly it's worth something IF the consumer decides to take that information somewhere else, but if it you decide to have the car worked on there at that moment it's robbery IMO.

I don't have to put up with that because I have the latest tool and software and I can run my own diagnostic and then present the mechanic with my own print out. Perhaps I should charge them $75 so they don't have to waste their time doing it.

I realize cars are more and more complicated to work on and training and diagnostic equipment is expensive, but what they charge for basic maintenance is ridiculous.

Oh well, this has certainly jumped a little off topic and I don't begrudge any mechanic or repair center a fair profit. But it seems as margins decrease on the retail side the prices in the service dept. have skyrocketed off the chart.

VW's new "Carefree Maintenance" is a joke as they have extended the service intervals to 10K, 20K, and 30K during the 3yr/36K warranty. I don't wait more than 5K to change my oil so I would still be on the hook for anything in between their "recommended" service intervals. They took away the 4yr/50K warranty to offer the crappy 3yr/36K w/ carefree maintenance. On the surface it looks like you are getting something, but you're not.

/end rant/

H9

[Demiurge]

haha, oh man...

No wonder we're plunging towards Socialism here.

[ND13]

haha, oh man...

No wonder we're plunging towards Socialism here.

Seems like the whole friggin world is, lately. I've been an optimist most of my life, but recent events, both personally and not, have made me change. All I want is for my children to have full lives, but.......:(

[bobman1235]

You say how small the profit margins are at a dealership's service department, but how is it that they are, usually by quite a large margin, more expensive than some mom & pop garage for the same service, and the mom & pop has rent to pay and doesn't have some huge car conglomerate helping with the bills?

Something's fishy there. I take my car to Subaru for some stuff just cuz they do a nice job and I'm picky about who plays with my car, but for things like brakes they're usually 50% more than nearly everyone else, so screw that.

[ND13]

Re-read my post. Never said the service department. Said the dealership as a whole.

[bobman1235]

Re-read my post. Never said the service department. Said the dealership as a whole.

Ah, my bad, mis-read / mis-interpreted. So basically they're jacking up the service margins to make up for the lackluster sales margins.

[ND13]

That and most "dealership" body-shops lose money. That's why they are becoming more and more rare these days.

[treitz3]

A $20K car might have $1000-1600 of mark-up in it, depending on added options. A volume dealer will sometimes receive dealer incentives for reaching goals, but they will usually give up what little they have to play with in order to get to that goal(robbing Peter to pay Paul).Plus the 3% holdback, dealer incentives that dealers refuse to talk about and that bogus DOC fee or whatever the hell they call it nowadays.

Then they also have the back end, warrantee and dealer "add ons". Believe me, they are not as bad off as you think.

[Demiurge]

You say how small the profit margins are at a dealership's service department, but how is it that they are, usually by quite a large margin, more expensive than some mom & pop garage for the same service, and the mom & pop has rent to pay and doesn't have some huge car conglomerate helping with the bills?

Something's fishy there. I take my car to Subaru for some stuff just cuz they do a nice job and I'm picky about who plays with my car, but for things like brakes they're usually 50% more than nearly everyone else, so screw that.

They spend a lot more money on their service techs keeping them more up to speed than almost any private garage. They're almost forced to mostly because of dealing with leases alone.

I took my car to a local garage a while back and they wanted to do a valve job on my engine. I almost shit a brick when I heard that, because I knew it was wrong. I took it to a dealer and they diagnosed the problem correctly and it only cost me $300.

I don't mind paying more when it's done right.

[ND13]

Plus the 3% holdback, dealer incentives that dealers refuse to talk about and that bogus DOC fee or whatever the hell they call it nowadays.

Then they also have the back end, warrantee and dealer "add ons". Believe me, they are not as bad off as you think.

It's your choice to buy a new car...noone is twisting your arm.
Some of you think that we put guns to your heads and make you buy a car against your will.

Dude, you have NO CLUE what overhead at a nice dealership is.

Back end is the choice of the purchaser, PERIOD!!!

Dealerships are going out of business left and right.

I'm out.

[treitz3]

Why do you think I don't? I knew what else there is to know didn't I? The back end is definitely up to the buyer/purchaser. I'm not gonna argue that but I do know that when they sell you the "under carriage" protection for $800-$1000 that it only costs the dealership 2 bills. the DOC fee that they say is "required"? No it ain't. Read the damn Moroney sticker. All of what they "say" they have to pay for has already been included in the MSRP.

[ND13]

Everybody knows about the holdback....wooptee another $600 on a $20K investment. I had already mentioned the dealer incentives, too.

[treitz3]

Hey man, I didn't quote you to get into an argument. That was not my intention. All I'm saying is that I have been privy to the knowledge of how it all works. I have many friends who own, and work, manage, whatever various dealerships.

I was just saying that the profit margin is not what it seems. I have seen cars get sold before $200.00 under invoice and the sale had a before expenses profit of over 4K.

[ND13]

I'm just tired of the stigma that ALL dealers are just out to rip the public off. I've left high-paying management positions at the less scrupulous dealers before....guess what, most are out of business now.

[sucks2beme]

The new trend seems to be killing off self-maintenance. It's coming.
I'm sure California will outlaw driveway oil changes soon. It's
getting hard to find an oil recycling center here in North Texas as of
late.
I'm still a DIY guy. I've got a code reader out in the garage. Every F'ing
thing sets a check engine code now. Loose gas cap will set a code.
My wife completely freaked out and stopped her car, and called me in a panic. I ask
"Is it running ok? Does the temp, oil pressure, and charge look okay?
Then drive the damn thing home." And it turns out to be a gas cap?
They have a message display in the dash. Why can't they spend $10 more
to get it to show more info then CHECK ENGINE. It does do a oil change reminder.

[BeRad]

Here is what I have noticed with dealerships where I live. Situations could be different city to city, country to country:

The service departments have to use genuine parts where as private garages can use white box genero-brand parts. Dealers tend to pay more themselves for the genuine parts than anyone pays for aftermarket. Auto-companies also tend to screw the dealerships on labor rates for warranty work. The dealerships I have worked at or know people that work at (Dodge, Nissan, Acura, Chev, Ford, Volvo, and Kia) don't like doing warranty work because the car company pays them much less than the going labor rate. Throw unionized mechanics (usually higher paid that non-union) into the equation and they can actually end up loosing money on a warranty job if everything doesn't work out nice and quick.

If you are out of warranty, want Genuine parts installed by people who have probably seen that exact problem on that exact model of car before, then the extra money is worth it. Sometimes you can bring in your own parts to save some money. The cheaper garages are so, because they use aftermarket parts and pay their employees less. They also tend to do less reliable work (not non reliable, just less reliable than a dealership. Slightly higher frequency of post-work issues).

As for scanning. There are plenty of readers you can get for only a couple hundred dollars to get your own codes. The scanners the dealerships have cost up to 2500 dollars. Only the high end readers can give detailed readouts of ABS and airbag systems. The cost of the system and upgrades are why they charge for the scan. I see nothing wrong with charging something for any vehicle that gets driven into the shop regardless of what it is there for. Should be 20 dollars just to bring it in!

Interesting fact: Nissan Dealerships that want to get approved to sell and service the Nissan GT-R have to get a $100,000 dollar upgrade for training and equipment from Nissan. With the companies charging their own dealerships so much money for equipment, parts, and supplies, they have to make up the money somewhere since vehicle markup is so low.

[sucks2beme]

The going labor rate here in Texas isn't the problem.
I've never heard of unionized car mechanics, even up north.
It's the flat rate that's causing problems. Many jobs now are rated on a guess,
not a real tear down. And with the pressure of dealership managers
trying to stay afloat, the push is to get cars in and out quick.
My favorite quote from my son. "You don't get paid to diagnose,
you get paid to fix things." Translated: throw some parts at it and
get to the next car. That was from a manager at a big Lexus
dealership. $125 an hour labor rate. And it's not because they were paying
the mechanics very well. And if they gave away a service freeby,
the mechanic ate the job. He changed carreer fields.
Most of the good mechanics are leaving dealerships or the field
completely.

[Serendipity]

This statement may offend everyone...

I don't want to generalize and say ALL dealerships have bad service departments, but around here there are quite a few. The last one was just plain dishonest and wanted to "bill a part and then install it" even if it had nothing to do with the original problem. In addition, problems seemed to occur after they just fixed the car, like a CV joint leaking grease AFTER they had said the car was 100%. Seems like either they were plain incompetent or just never checked the car.

[sucks2beme]

I had a run in with the Dodge guys on a minivan transaxle.
After a week, they couldn't explain why the thing had dropped out of OD
at highway speed, and seems to be revving very high in 2nd gear.
The symptom seemed to point to an electronic failure, resulting in
"failsafe mode" (2nd gear for all engine/ground speeds).
I went to the mechanic who had a huge laundry list of maintenance items.
I ran through the diag chart with him. I then asked "what does anything on
your list have to do with this?" I then went through what he throught the problem was.
He said he took it for a test drive, and it didn't happen. I
then took my vehicle home without any of the "extra" work being done.
It did happen again. What had happened is, a mechanic doing some minor
work in an outside shop managed to somehow crack my battery case.
it was leaking like crazy, so I changed it out. The problem is, some of the
acid had gone under the battery holder, and into a connector for the
transaxle. When it got wet, the sensor connector would short out accross the battery crud,
and give the computor a wrong RPM reading. Bingo!
I decided right there to buy some better tools/diag equipment and
stop depending on morons to work on my car. I'm not all that great, but
I can handle my labor rate! I have a bunch of horror stories, but this is the
one that stopped me from letting paid help work on my cars.

[Serendipity]

That's exactly what I am talking about. If you need to bring your car to the mechanic more than 2 times in the same week...for the same problem...then I would suspect incompetence.

[audiobliss]

The scanners the dealerships have cost up to 2500 dollars.
Only $2500? There are some models, like the 'brick', that go for that cheap. But Dad sells scanners to mechanics that cost $8000, too.

[BeRad]

Only $2500? There are some models, like the 'brick', that go for that cheap. But Dad sells scanners to mechanics that cost $8000, too.

Whoa. Love to see the detailed print-outs from those things!

[shadowofnight]

Here is the page from the manual ( Pic below ) ....VDC is Vehicle Dynamic Control....its used for a lot more then just launch control .....it basically lets the driver take over full control of the throttle without ECU assist , as well as turning off any stabilty control from the ECU as well.

With stability control off, this lets you spin tires and drift or slide in any direction without the ECU applying brake power to specific wheels to control your vehicles attitude....as well as limiting engine power to stop spinning wheels when necessary.


A GTR owner wrote Nissan to ask why using a FEATURE ( Provided and touted on the production car available to the public ) on the car would void the warranty...here is Nissans response.....




" So this is the mail contents I have back from Nissan


Please see our current policy detail regarding your VDC (ESP) issue below. Please note however, this is still work in progress.

Tuning:
Malfunctions caused by operation performed at workshop other than NHPC or mount of parts other than Nissan genuine will not be covered by warranty.

Driving condition:
Malfunctions caused by severe driving (eg. driving at circuit) will not be covered by warranty.
Verification of travel distance with Vehicle Status Data Recorder (VSDR) and history of parts replacement may be conducted.

Special driving condition:
Launch mode needs to be set VDC off. When the customer set VDC off, then warranty is not covered as described in the Owner Manual (OM).
Customer should be checked and maintained in NHPC before and after driving racetrack to follow special racing service intervals in OM.
System failure on the vehicle during race driving on a circuit is non-warrantable. System failure on the vehicle during city driving related to having driven the vehicle on a race circuit is non-warrantable.

NB: Specific warranty booklet will be supplied to all RBUs for translation and distribution to local network

My understanding is that essentially, any car driven on track is out of warranty until re-checked by a certified NHPC which effectively re-sets the warranty.

Effectively, any time VDC OFF is engaged, the car is out of warranty while VDC OFF is engaged. "



So basically the VDC button is on the dash but you cannot use it :confused:



My Nissan also has a VDC button which ( Ever since I put on the traction bars and installed the limited slip differential) I use EVERY time I get in the vehicle. With the factory open diff and VDC OFF all you would do is light up the right rear tire...so I never used it. But now that I am able to put 100% of the engines horsepower to the pavement with both wheels I use VDC OFF 100% of the time .

It also allows me to spin both rear tires and change the trucks attitude while 4 wheeling...something you cant do with VDC on.


If Nissan says the warranty is voided turning the VDC off, then they shouldnt have provided a dash mounted button whose only function IS TURNING THE VDC OFF.

[Serendipity]

shadowofnight,

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of Nissan do you have?

[shadowofnight]

shadowofnight,

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of Nissan do you have?

Titan 4x4 ......I LOVE the truck...but, if after all of my mods I couldnt turn off the VDC with that little button on my dash...I would have sold it. That one button makes all the difference in the world.

[Serendipity]

That one button makes all the difference in the world.

Why?

Nice truck, BTW :)

[shadowofnight]

With it on ( Its default is on when you start the vehicle ) ....at the slightest hint of a spinning wheel the ecu tells the engine to lower its output to stop the wheel from spinning....it feels like someone took 2 of your cylinders away.

Now, when I press that VDC button....I am the one who is in control of the throttle...if I want a little wheelspin or a lot of wheelspin...its a touch of the throttle away. Now that I have the limited slip differential , I can use the throttle to steer the truck in any manner I want offroad ( Or even onroad if I want to act 18 again :) )

[Airplay355]

I thought the VDC would transfer power to the wheels that weren't slipping and let the ones that were slipping just roll. Is that true? I don't know much about car parts.

[shadowofnight]

I thought the VDC would transfer power to the wheels that weren't slipping and let the ones that were slipping just roll. Is that true? I don't know much about car parts.


No, thats the Active Brake Limited Slip ( ABLS ) system....basically a factory limited slip function. It clamps the brake caliper slowly on the spinning wheel...enabling the open diff to transfer power to the non slipping wheel.

Sounds good in theory, but with the brakes clamping on one wheel to send power to the other wheel you still end up with a lot less power to the ground for both wheels. Installing a real limited slip differential works much better.



Back to the GTR...
The thing with the GTR is , that it has so much horsepower AND 4 wheel drive in such a small vehicle that without the VDC system on the street or road course ( Using the launch control and turning off VDC for drag racing is a different matter ) it could be a real handful even to a lot of experienced drivers. They probably shouldnt have even made it a button on the dash....more like a button or lever in the trunk.

[Ron-P]

What a joke, first spending near $100k on a Nissan...a Nissan! Secondly, on a car built to race and for speed yet you cannot use it for the purpose it was designed for, wow, talk about stupid. I've never been impressed with anything Nissan; cars, trucks, suvs but stuff like this will keep me away from even considering Nissan for a future ride.

[sucks2beme]

It could be worse. Like buying the gauge pakage for your Ford F150, and
finding out oil pressure and charge are just idiot gauges(off or at preset).
WTF? I believe some of these guys in car company management need
to get out to the real world once in a while. No oil dipstick?
Non-functional gauges, buttons you can't push. Brake wear sensors that break
(when the sensor dies, time for new pads/rotors).
Or your compact truck being 95% the size of the full size.

[concealer404]

Or calling the GTR a small sports car.....

[Danny Tse]

....on a car built to race and for speed yet you cannot use it for the purpose it was designed for, wow, talk about stupid.

Mitsubishi had the same issue with people racing around in their EVO

[Ron-P]

But, did Mitsubishi have a factory installed option on their EVO's that if used would void the warranty?

[mark090852]

Actually, BMW, MERCEDES, JAGUAR, AUDI, VOLKSWAGEN do not have dip sticks on the 2009 model cars. They want you to come to the dealership to have your oil checked and changed. You can, for an additional charge, buy a dip stick and unscrew a cap where you can insert it inside the engine compartment.

Dealerships apparently don't make enough money on repairs these days. :mad:

H9

I have a BMW 530i. It's true that it doesn't have a dipstick but it has a very accurate electronic oil level sensor that can be checked through the electronic iDrive system. I only have to press a button and I can see the oil level displayed on the iDrive screen. All scheduled oil changes and maintenances are provided free of charge up to 50,000 miles. If I want to change the oil myself more frequently I can easily do that. A dipstick isn't necessary.

[bobman1235]

A dipstick isn't necessary.

Right, electronic meters never go bad, right?

[sucks2beme]

I have a BMW 530i. It's true that it doesn't have a dipstick but it has a very accurate electronic oil level sensor that can be checked through the electronic iDrive system. I only have to press a button and I can see the oil level displayed on the iDrive screen. All scheduled oil changes and maintenances are provided free of charge up to 50,000 miles. If I want to change the oil myself more frequently I can easily do that. A dipstick isn't necessary.

50k? I hope you're changing oil a LOT more often than that!

[Sami]

50k? I hope you're changing oil a LOT more often than that!

Free up to 50k miles, I think interval is about 15k (or could be 10k with 5-series).

[mark090852]

Free up to 50k miles, I think interval is about 15k (or could be 10k with 5-series).

Yes, the free maintenance is ALL the scheduled oil changes, etc. during the first 50,000 miles. The scheduled maintenances are at 15k, 30k, and 45k. That varies a little depending on how you drive. The onboard computer monitors different driving parameters and alerts the driver to the service intervals but they are usually close to every 15k miles.

And yes, electronic sensors can fail like anything else. My point was more to the fact that, at least with BMW, the lack of a dipstick isn't an attempt to force the owner to the dealership to have the oil level checked. I have to trust the electronics to alert me to a problem, just like I trust the electronics to alert me to an overheating engine. I wouldn't take it to the dealership to have its temperature taken. :)