XPA-2 Protect mode

[mmadden28]

Not sure what the limits are, but I keep putting my Emotiva XPA-2 into protect mode.
Here's the setup:
Pioneer Elite DV-46AV (using as a CD/SACD player)
Dodd ELP pre
LSi9s

Simple enough right?

Using different source material, I can't get the Dodd's volume much more than 50% before the XPA's protection mode kicks in (scares the crap out of me everytime :eek:). Usually on the right channel. Normal listening can be had around 25-30%.
I also had this happen at least twice with an ipod as a source, but the Dodd was up at about 75% while the iPod was about 75% as well.

It's pretty loud, but I think it should be able to go louder, or have I reached the LSi9's limits somehow? I left my SPL meter at work-I'll bring it home and see if I can get a reading for when it craps out.

I've changed my ICs, my speaker wire, and the tubes-no relevant changes. The amp is directly connected to an outlet via a 14awg basic power cord.

When I hook the iPod directly to the XPA-2 (no pre), I can't get enough volume to kill it.

I used Carried Underwood - Wasted, and I think even Floyd - DSOTM.
Other than that, a hum, and a high noise floor-it sounds BEAUTIFUL!!

I also have an XPA-5 that I can test with, but initially at least, I'd rather not haul either beast up or down a flight of steps (again). ;)

Thanks for any feedback.

[george daniel]

impedence issue between the dodd and amp? and/or, are you overdriving the amp? I had an adcom 555go into "thermal protection" a couple of times,, but that was at extremely high volume, I'm guessing that might be the case,,just how loud is it? Oh,, what tubes are you using in the dodd,, 6dj8 or varient--yes.?

I went back and checked my elp's no hum,, the only thing that I hear at high volume,with nothing playing is some "tube rush",, have you tried using a two pronged cheater plug with the dodd? Good Luck.

[ben62670]

The 9's actually dip to 2ohms in the bass region.

[george daniel]

The 9's actually dip to 2ohms in the bass region.

LOL,, I guess that he needs to get an amp with MORE power/current,,, you know those adcoms go well with the dodd elp. :D

[mmadden28]

The 9's actually dip to 2ohms in the bass region.

I'd expect the XPA-2 to keep up with that--I think thay are built to handle 2 ohms, just not rated for it. I know I read that somewheer or perhaps heard it from Lonnie-I'll have to look for that.

I'm not discounting it-just wary.

[ben62670]

If it has load protection it may trip. I don't know that amp so I have no idea:(
Ben

[george daniel]

are you using a power conditioner to the amp?

[mmadden28]

impedence issue between the dodd and amp? and/or, are you overdriving the amp? I had an adcom 555go into "thermal protection" a couple of times,, but that was at extremely high volume, I'm guessing that might be the case,,just how loud is it? Oh,, what tubes are you using in the dodd,, 6dj8 or varient--yes.?

I went back and checked my elp's no hum,, the only thing that I hear at high volume,with nothing playing is some "tube rush",, have you tried using a two pronged cheater plug with the dodd? Good Luck.

What would cause an impedance issue? How would I troubleshoot that?

Overdriving? Hmm, not sure. The Dodd is just above 50% volume. the source is (assuming) line out from the SACD. What's the usual max?

I haven't tried a cheater plug yet for the hum-I'd imagine that Nick and SolidSqual, and Phuz already tried that-and since its a known issue with this and other stock ELPS.... I'll try it though for my hiss and to see if it helps reduce the hum--Actually I have a PS Audio power cable on the way with the removeable ground lug. I'll see if that cable helps, then I'll try removing the lug. I have wires everywhere-I might be getting some interference from the power lines. I'll try to pick them up..

Speaking of interference--at one point in the end of the last song on the DSOTM (SACD-2ch), when the man is speaking, I was able to get it up pretty loud, and the background noise was very evident. At first I doubted what I was hearingm, but my freind Q heard it as well. Almost sounded like some other mucis was playing, like classical or something. Almost like when you're playing a cassette tape and you can hear the other side or a previously recorded song....:confused: Anyway I definately thing that is picking up some interference from somewhere, unless PF put some hidden stuff in there ;)

[mmadden28]

are you using a power conditioner to the amp?

At one point I had it in a High Current jack on a conditioner, but right now its straight in the outlet with an upgraded (just still stock type) 14awg power cable. Better than the paltry 18awg cable provided.

Are you suggesting I try a conditioner or that it might be a limiting factor?

[VXR8]

Do you have the Emo plugged into a Power Conditioner? Emo recommend that you DON'T and plug it directly into the power point - just a thought.

Sorry - disregard - you replied as I was still typing

[george daniel]

I think that it's time to get the Dodd back to Gary. Then hum/noise issue should be resolved. You will be much more pleased when that happens.As for your amp cutting out/protection mode,,I think that is a current/power issue, Just how loud are you playing it? ;) with my dodd connected to Adcom mono's thru carver amazings, about 11' oclock is as loud as I can stand(on the dodd vol). I've followed this thread and hope that you do not get frustrated with the dodd,, it's a sweet little pre,,thats why I keep saying send it back to Gary. Anyhow,, have fun,,, I/ve gotta go to work :)

[mmadden28]

Appears it may be an impedance related issue--hmm or power---, would a good test be to bring my RTi12s (8ohms vs 4) down and try them. Or what about some RM-50Ts Or perhaps just one channel connected at a time??

[mmadden28]

...I've followed this thread and hope that you do not get frustrated with the dodd,, it's a sweet little pre,,thats why I keep saying send it back to Gary. Anyhow,, have fun,,, I/ve gotta go to work :)

Not at all, I'm highly optimistic :D. Actually I troubleshoot things for a living-I expect failure in electronics, but I also know enough to not lay blame (or jump to conclusions) to any one component until I know for sure. Obviously I have two sepaarte issues here-one a minor annoyance that can be resolved. The other an apparent issue with the amp-just what???.

By the way, I started using the Ei Elites 6DJ8E's, today I switched to JJ E8CC's--4:30a my time- time to hit the hay.

Thanks for all the feedback.

[ben62670]

RTI's 8ohms
LSI9's 2ohms. 2 4ohm woofers in parallel is 2ohms;) Why do you think so many receivers $hit a brick driving them.

[mmadden28]

RTI's 8ohms
LSI9's 2ohms. 2 4ohm woofers in parallel is 2ohms;) Why do you think so many receivers $hit a brick driving them.

I thought they were rated 4ohms?

[ben62670]

I thought they were rated 4ohms?

That's what they say. They are not 4 ohms in the lower regions. 2 4ohm woofers in parallel is 2ohms;) There are some inductors in the signal path that help, but they dip pretty low. The LSI7's are 4ohms. The LSIc drops to 2 ohms too. I have one apart right next to me. I just pulled the drivers, and measured them for you. 3.9ohms each. This means they dip to 2ohms around 200hz, and less.
http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/specs/individual/bookshelf/lsi9/

[george daniel]

so ,in my mind,, the amp is hitting the wall so to speak, and goes in to the protection mode? Is that correct?

[nikolas812]

OK. Heres my thoughts.

The hum is always going to be there until you have Gary fix it.

As for the high noise floor. I don't know where thats comeing from. Its not comeing from the ELP. Unless something happened during shipping.

As for the Emo going into protection. My gut tells me your overdriving the amp. The reason I say this is when I had a XPA-2 hooked up with the 9's and the ELP. At low listening levels, the power meters were maxing out on the amp. A LOT! And this was at low volume. I could only imagine what it would be trying to pull form the amp at high volumes. We never cranked it up so I don't know if the same thing would have happened or not.

The reason I think the high noise floor is comeing from some place else is because I pretty much had your exact system in my listening room at one time. Except for the source and wires. They were identical. And besides the hum the noise floor was dead silent. So maybe theres a issue with your amp or some kind of ground issue. I dunno.:confused: But I don't think its comeing from the ELP.

IMO since you have two amps and two sets of speakers. I would try them both. Maybe the load from the Lsi's are too much for the EMO. You should be able to find out by using the Rti's. If it doesn't go into protection mode with them then you'll know.

I would also try the other amp just to see what happens. It might be a bitch to haul it up and down the stairs. But it might be worth it in th long run.

I hope these problems don't have you discouraged. Once all the bugs are worked out and you find that synergy you are looking for. It will all be worth it.

Just my $0.02;)



Cheers


Nick

[Early B.]

The XPA-2 has enough juice to drive just about any set of speakers on the planet. Try another preamp and see what happens.

The noise floor issue could be a result of dirty power. I recently added a high quality power conditioner and the noise floor dropped like a ton of bricks.

[marvda1]

the dodd elp has quite a bit of gain, when i had mine my listening range was 9:00 to 11:00. sending the pre in to gary may not fix the hum. when i had mine icarried it to gary who couln't get rid of the hum so he gave me the last one that he had done the external transformers on. while the new elp sounded much better the hum was still there just not as loud. either way i could not hear it from my listening seat.

[SolidSqual]

The issue is not power. That's for sure. The 9's are power hungry, but not enough to throw the amp into submission. You have some other issue.

[ben62670]

My buddies LSI15's were driven by the Emo also with no problems.
Ben

[iskandam]

I drove a pair of LSi15, LSi7s and an LSiC with the XPA-5 and have never been able to drive it to protection mode. I'm afraid that my eardrums would explode long before that happens

[mmadden28]

Phew-I've been actually working today-just now catching up...I'll try to reply in one post.


..
The hum is always going to be there until you have Gary fix it....


Yeah, I know-I intend to do that-more just concerned about the high noise floor/hiss I'm hearing for now.


...
As for the Emo going into protection. My gut tells me your overdriving the amp. The reason I say this is when I had a XPA-2 hooked up with the 9's and the ELP. At low listening levels, the power meters were maxing out on the amp. A LOT! And this was at low volume. I could only imagine what it would be trying to pull form the amp at high volumes. We never cranked it up so I don't know if the same thing would have happened or not....


What was the highest position you ever went to on the ELP (with the LSi9s and the XPA-2)? This is happening to me at just above 50% (12 oclock). I'll have to recreate tonight to be sure.


..
...
IMO since you have two amps and two sets of speakers. I would try them both. Maybe the load from the Lsi's are too much for the EMO. You should be able to find out by using the Rti's. If it doesn't go into protection mode with them then you'll know.

I would also try the other amp just to see what happens. It might be a bitch to haul it up and down the stairs. But it might be worth it in the long run.
...


Yep, that was something I expect to try tonight--However I think I'll carry the ELP and the LSi9s upstairs instead of moving either amp (duh) :o. I have a pair of RM50Ts downstairs already I can try. I'll try out every possible combination of connections and speakers I can and report back on my findings. To many variables right now-I need to rule some out to get to the cause. I need to go eat a can of spinach. :D


..
I hope these problems don't have you discouraged. Once all the bugs are worked out and you find that synergy you are looking for. It will all be worth it.


..No I'm not discouraged-I'm enthusiastic-:)-so far the sound is better than I ever heard the system (as young as it is), so right now I am of the mindset that it WILL only get better-its just a matter of getting it all setup properly and knowing its limitations (wether fixed or self imposed). I never expected to have a complete 2 channel system (not that it is) or audio bliss so soon anyway-I expect it to take time-besides I don't even have a dedicated listening room yet-so its a work in progress anyway. Its a fun journey and I am learning lots on the way-so nothing is lost here.


The XPA-2 has enough juice to drive just about any set of speakers on the planet. Try another preamp and see what happens.

I figured that about the XPA-2--if it weren't the XPA-2 I would almost expect it, but...


The noise floor issue could be a result of dirty power. I recently added a high quality power conditioner and the noise floor dropped like a ton of bricks.

I'll have to try that again-I also have a PS Audio power cable on the way-we'll see if that does anything.


the dodd elp has quite a bit of gain, when i had mine my listening range was 9:00 to 11:00.

That was one of my thoughts, that perhaps it just has a lot of gain, but still I expected louder output before I hit max--I have to get an SPL reading since what's loud to might be way way to loud for others and beyond the limits of something....


sending the pre in to gary may not fix the hum. when i had mine icarried it to gary who couln't get rid of the hum so he gave me the last one that he had done the external transformers on. while the new elp sounded much better the hum was still there just not as loud. either way i could not hear it from my listening seat.
Yeah, I read the posts-I basically know what to expect--I don't expect dead silent-for that I guess I would have to have a battery powered pre. I just want to minimize as much as possible.


I drove a pair of LSi15, LSi7s and an LSiC with the XPA-5 and have never been able to drive it to protection mode. I'm afraid that my eardrums would explode long before that happens

I haven't put my XPA-5 into protection yet (using the Onk 805 as a pre). Perhaps I was too chicken to go higher :eek:
I definately got louder output from the RTi12s than the Lsi9-Of course I would expect that between a Floorstander and a Bookshelf.

Thansk again for the suggestions and feedback.

[mmadden28]

...I went back and checked my elp's no hum,, the only thing that I hear at high volume,with nothing playing is some "tube rush"....

Can you describe what 'tube rush' sounds like?

Thanks

[SolidSqual]

Nik and I had that ELP over half with my XPA-2s (since returned to Emotiva). The amp was not stressed.

[george daniel]

Can you describe what 'tube rush' sounds like?

Thanks

With nothing playing,,and the volume up on your pre,,it sounds like a faint low level hiss,, at least thats the best way I can describe it,,typically with better tubes,,the less the "hiss" in my limited experience.

[mmadden28]

OK family is about, and the kids are not behavin' so the wife is constantly looking to me for some discipline backup-(thereby interupting me and being quite noisy) Not to mention I can't crank it up with the boys inthe same room :(.

Anyway I will post some of the results of my testing as I go along..
First. I figured out exactly where I can get it to go into protect mode adn can reproduce it every time.
Playing Carrie Underwood, Wasted (redbook CD) via the Pio 46AV.
The ELP is in place and the volume is set at approximately 10 o'clock (That gain increases fast).
The part of the song is right at the beginning when the violins gear up. Now it is not bery loud at this point, I have gotten this setup to go louder, Perhaps its the highs? What frequencies are more likely to cause a dip in impedance??
Hers a pic of the ELP volume setting:
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/mmadden28/PolkAudio%20Forum/CIMG8128.jpg

Heres a vid of the event:
Note: It varies on the channel that goes into protect mode, could be right, left or both-depends on the song.
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/mmadden28/PolkAudio%20Forum/th_XPA2-Protectmode.jpg (http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/mmadden28/PolkAudio%20Forum/?action=view&current=XPA2-Protectmode.flv)

I'm going to swap the ICs out fromt he Silvers to the Monoprice next...

[nikolas812]

Just watched the video. You've got some issues!:eek:

I hope its not the ELP.......

Have you posted a question about your problem on the Emotiva Forum yet?

That seems like a pretty major problem. I don't have a clue as to what it would be. I guess its just a matter of process and elimination.

Hope you get it figured out,


Fyi. That was reference level when I had it. (75db)



Nick

[GV#27]

Is it only happenig on the right channel?Is that channel getting excessively hot in comparison to the other?If so switch the speakers to opposite sides and see if the problem fallows the right speaker.

[Early B.]

Try this -- swap out the interconnects to the amp. As you may know, the XPA-2 and XPA-5 are sensitive to cables for some reason.

[SolidSqual]

http://emotivalounge.proboards54.com/index.cgi?board=amps&action=display&thread=1882

[mmadden28]

Is it only happenig on the right channel?Is that channel getting excessively hot in comparison to the other?If so switch the speakers to opposite sides and see if the problem fallows the right speaker.

No-at first I thought so, but that was just a coincidence. Its happened no the right, left and both. In the video with that song-its consistently on the left.

[mmadden28]

Try this -- swap out the interconnects to the amp. As you may know, the XPA-2 and XPA-5 are sensitive to cables for some reason.

That was my next step--removed the Cyrotweak Silver ICs and put the Monoprice premiums back in - no change at all-still fails at the same spot at the same level.

[mmadden28]

OK, ruled out the ICs (note I replace both sets, between the CDP and the ELP, as well as between the ELP and the XPA.

Well next I swapped the speakers out--I put a pair of RM7300s, not quite the level of the LSis, but they are 8 ohm rated 89dB speakers, and guess what:

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/mmadden28/PolkAudio%20Forum/th_elp005.jpg (http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/mmadden28/PolkAudio%20Forum/?action=view&current=elp005.flv)

Disregard the poor sounding audio-it was simply too loud for the camera. :eek::D:eek:

It doesn't put the amp into protect mode!! :rolleyes: not sure if I should be happy or not.. Somethign I should note though is I was able to increase the ELP volume a couple hairs more-still didn't cause a fault, but I started to see the red leds on the XPA-I never saw them before-only full out red leds-I suppose this provides warning when you're approaching the limits. It also sounded like I might be pushing the speakers to thier brink so I quickly turned it down.

So is that position (~10:00 o'clk) on the ELP a normal max position? What on earth could you run that would enable the ELP to turn it up more? I suppose its amp dependent??
Or is there something wrong with my LSi's? Or perhaps the XPA?

I think I'll call the Emotiva guys to get thier take--I may bring the LSIs and the ELP upstairs to my XPA-5 and see if the same thing happens there. If its an impedance issue I suppose it would happen there too right?

First though, to tackle the noise floor/hiss issues. Its probably too late for me to crank it up in the Family room.

[mmadden28]

...

Fyi. That was reference level when I had it. (75db)



According to what, an SPL meter?

I forgot mine - i left it at work :o

[mmadden28]

It's odd that with the RM7300s where it actually plays thru-
the level meter on the XPA doesn't peak at the spot where the LSI's crap out-not until the drums do you see the meter close to peaking. I suppose the level meter is not looking at the highs???

[Face]

It may be looking at the highs(peaks). The way the EMO is designed, wattage is doubled when impedance is halved.

Your RM7300's are 8 ohms, correct?

LSi9's are 4 ohm and dip down to 2 ohms.

[mmadden28]

Here's another interesting thing-unrelated to the XPA-2 protect mode issue (or is it?), but more with my noise issue (interference?)..With the Dodd on and unmuted, but with the CD stopped, everytime I snapped a pic with a flash I could hear the pops-like static. It got louder when I held the camera closer to the Dodd. I obviously can't take a video of that.

[Face]

Have you tried the other tubes yet?

[mmadden28]

Have you tried the other tubes yet?

Aside from two already tried, no. I'll be tring that to figure out he noide floor isssue

[F1nut]

I can't get the Dodd's volume much more than 50% before the XPA's protection mode kicks in (scares the crap out of me everytime ). Usually on the right channel. Normal listening can be had around 25-30%.
I also had this happen at least twice with an ipod as a source, but the Dodd was up at about 75% while the iPod was about 75% as well.


In general, most amps start to clip when the volume level on the pre hits around 12 noon. If the Dodd is a high gain pre then you're going to hit that wall before 12 noon.

75%??? That's just plain 'ole abuse.

Of course, it could just be that the amp doesn't have the balls that others do.



Edit: Sounds like you might have some microphonic tubes.

[mmadden28]

In general, most amps start to clip when the volume level on the pre hits around 12 noon. If the Dodd is a high gain pre then you're going to hit that wall before 12 noon.

75%??? That's just plain 'ole abuse.

Of course, it could just be that the amp doesn't have the balls that others do.



Edit: Sounds like you might have some microphonic tubes.

I hear ya--to clarify the 75% on the Dodd was when using the iPod. Based ont he volume differences betwen the Pio CD Player, and the iPod, I don't think the iPod puts out as high a signal as the Pio. thus it won't amplify as much????

[fredv]

There have been many helps so far. So, I will throw in my 2 cents.
The position of the of volume dial is not any kind of indication of the amp's output. There are
3 things in the equation:
1. Source output, most of the CD or DVD player has 2V RMS output. However, some recording are louder and some are lower. That's why sometimes we need to adjust the volume control to maintain certain sound level.
2. Most of the line level preamps accept 2V RMS input and amplify it. I don't have the specs of the ELP. Since everyone says it has a lot of gain, and based on most of the 2 tube topologies and the 6922 tubes, my guess is a minimum of 20X, probably high 20's. That is a lot!!!!!
3. The input sensitivity of the amp, most of the amps will need just 2V RMS to be in full power. Anything more than that will drive the amp in overload.

As you can see, when the ELP is at slightly over 1X amplification, it can deliver more than 2V RMS in the output (2V RMS input x 1.X > 2V RMS) which can push your XPA to full power!!! That's why you don't need to turn the volume knob a lot. I don't think the ipod can deliver 2V RMS output. That's why it can't drive the amp to full power. The visual of 25% or 75% is deceiving. What it really counts is how much is pumped into the amp. I can be wrong. The XPA probably can handle 2 ohm load but not sustain this load at full power.

I hope this will help.

[george daniel]

this may help,, but I think it gonna' take a call to Gary or the emotiva folks



http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36517

[nikolas812]

According to what, an SPL meter?

I forgot mine - i left it at work :o


Yes.

I used a test tone CD and a SPL meter.


Now change those tubes!!!!! I forgot to tell you a couple pairs were microphonic. I just don't remember which ones.

I would suggest trying the Amperex's next. But its up to you. I know there not microphonic. Or shouldn't be anyway.


Nick

[mmadden28]

Yes.

I used a test tone CD and a SPL meter.


Now change those tubes!!!!! I forgot to tell you a couple pairs were microphonic. I just don't remember which ones.

I would suggest trying the Amperex's next. But its up to you. I know there not microphonic. Or shouldn't be anyway.


Nick

Microphonic?? Not sure what that is (yet)-would that explain why I hear the Flash of the camera? Or would that cause another issue? How do you determine if a tube is microphonic?

How far from the speakers should I take an SPL reading?

[Face]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphonics

[nikolas812]

Microphonic?? Not sure what that is (yet)-would that explain why I hear the Flash of the camera? Or would that cause another issue? How do you determine if a tube is microphonic?

How far from the speakers should I take an SPL reading?


I don't no if my advice is accurate. So take it for what its worth. But I would sit in my listing position when I took the reading.

As for microphoincs. That would explain the noise you here when you the flash goes off.

Its probably not recommended but you can tap on the tube when everything is turned on and you should hear some sort of feedback through your speakers. If you do the tubes are more than likely microphonic.

Try the Amperex tubes. They were one of my favorites.


Nick

[mmadden28]

this may help,, but I think it gonna' take a call to Gary or the emotiva folks



http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36517

Not sure (I'm not ruling it out), that its related to the pre to amp connection--when I changed the speakers the amp didn't fault at the same exact settings (and even higher) when I used different speakers. Am I thinking right there? Or are you thinking about the background noice issue?

I stil have some more testing/swapping to do and I'm just about to call Emotiva-Been busy all day again-darn work keeps getting in the way :rolleyes:

[mmadden28]

There have been many helps so far. So, I will throw in my 2 cents.
The position of the of volume dial is not any kind of indication of the amp's output. There are
3 things in the equation:
1. Source output, most of the CD or DVD player has 2V RMS output. However, some recording are louder and some are lower. That's why sometimes we need to adjust the volume control to maintain certain sound level.
2. Most of the line level preamps accept 2V RMS input and amplify it. I don't have the specs of the ELP. Since everyone says it has a lot of gain, and based on most of the 2 tube topologies and the 6922 tubes, my guess is a minimum of 20X, probably high 20's. That is a lot!!!!!
3. The input sensitivity of the amp, most of the amps will need just 2V RMS to be in full power. Anything more than that will drive the amp in overload.

As you can see, when the ELP is at slightly over 1X amplification, it can deliver more than 2V RMS in the output (2V RMS input x 1.X > 2V RMS) which can push your XPA to full power!!! That's why you don't need to turn the volume knob a lot. I don't think the ipod can deliver 2V RMS output. That's why it can't drive the amp to full power. The visual of 25% or 75% is deceiving. What it really counts is how much is pumped into the amp. I can be wrong. The XPA probably can handle 2 ohm load but not sustain this load at full power.

I hope this will help.

Good read thanks--It just doesn't sound like full power that should shut the amp down, but then again I'm not experienced enough to know what is-Odd thing is that I only changed the speakers (same cables, same pre, same source, same volume, and the amp didn't fault at the same pre level, I was actually able to increase the pre's output-so that should say something..Sounded much louder of course. Well I definately have to try this on more capable speakers (RTi12).
I'm leaning towards the impedance drop issue, but then again,...

Calling Emo now.....:D

[Music Joe]

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/polkaudio_lsi9/

Look at the Impedance curve/Electrical phase junction, tough load for sure and the level those meters were showing - wow - 5 indicators per side is most I've seen in use and thats plenty loud for me, I'm still a newby on this amp though.

I can't find it but...there was discussion of XPA2's 2 0hm stability but it's not 2 ohm rated. The Emotiva forum talks about how will sag a/c line to deliver at 2 0hms.
Maybe those new XP1 monoblocks are in your future. Maybe 20 amp lines...just throwin' a couple of things out there and I sure hope you find your answer... it's a powerhouse of an amp.

[SolidSqual]

Maybe your amp is effed and you need to call Emotiva. There's no way a little Lsi9 is killin those amps, and doesn't break a sweat with a pair of Magnepan 3.6s. Oh by the way, I was in the room when I saw your Dodd go above half-way on my XPA-2 with a pair of Lsi9s. No Red Lights.

Time to start ruling out some major components.

[mmadden28]

I spoke to Lonnie today. I have some homework to do and get back to him, but so far he's thinking it could be a combination of things; the particular frequency that the violin note is hitting just might be causing the LSi9's impedance to dip real low, at the same time requiring the amp to draw more power from the wall, and possibly get starved- - Or something like that. It may have something to do with some of the protection circuitry watching the AC side as well as the line in side and both of them seeing a problem and shutting the amp down. Anyway, I have to try a couple things, specifically putting a resistor inline with the speakers to see if that eliminates the problem (at the same level). I have a couple other tests to do as well including some I already had on my plate (swapping amps, pres, etc).

[mmadden28]

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/polkaudio_lsi9/

Look at the Impedance curve/Electrical phase junction, tough load for sure and the level those meters were showing - wow - 5 indicators per side is most I've seen in use and thats plenty loud for me, I'm still a newby on this amp though.

I can't find it but...there was discussion of XPA2's 2 0hm stability but it's not 2 ohm rated. The Emotiva forum talks about how will sag a/c line to deliver at 2 0hms.
Maybe those new XP1 monoblocks are in your future. Maybe 20 amp lines...just throwin' a couple of things out there and I sure hope you find your answer... it's a powerhouse of an amp.

I think I know what discussion you're referring to. I'm sure I posted in that one-power related. i think thats the same one where it was mentioned that using a 240VAC ciruit would half the current requirements (this easing the AC wire gauge requirements).

Thanks for the link. Lonnie had asked if I could get something like that from Polk-this saves some time. :) One peice of homework checked off ;)

[mmadden28]

Maybe your amp is effed and you need to call Emotiva. There's no way a little Lsi9 is killin those amps, and doesn't break a sweat with a pair of Magnepan 3.6s. Oh by the way, I was in the room when I saw your Dodd go above half-way on my XPA-2 with a pair of Lsi9s. No Red Lights.

Time to start ruling out some major components.

Another think learned in my discussion. The meter LEDs are actually tuned for an 8ohm load. So when using 4 ohm speakers the meters are not accurate. So when the lights are about half way-you're actually almost max.

[WilliamM2]

Another think learned in my discussion. The meter LEDs are actually tuned for an 8ohm load. So when using 4 ohm speakers the meters are not accurate. So when the lights are about half way-you're actually almost max.

That's odd. The amps I had with meters would go higher with a 4 ohm load. Which makes sense, since they are measuring output.

[mmadden28]

Well some more troubleshooting results so far:

I set the pre to the same level that caused the XPA to go into protect mode. Verified and reproduced the fault using the CD as a source with the same song. It's the left channel everytime with this song at this part.

I switched the channels into the pre (L is now R, and vice versa)
The fault followed/switched as well. So this tells me the Left speaker is not specifically to blame. Its the signal going out that channel into the amp.

Next test, I hooked the CD and Pre back up, but this time I set the CD options to set the speakers to small and to use a sub. There were no crossover freq options but the subwoofer was set to 80Hz not that I think that even made a difference-actually I don't think I even needed the sub hooked up.
With the Dodd at the same level that caused the fault last time, I played the CD again. this time it made it past the first big beat!! And I was actually able to push the Dodd at or just beyond the 12 oclock position. So this tells me the freq causing the fault is below whatever freq the Pio set the crossover (not sure what that freq is) since all those freqs would be sent to the sub. So that appears to put the LSi right into that low impedance area according to the chart referenced by Music Joe.

Next test, I put a resistor in line with the speakers, and the XPA no longer goes into fault. Lonnie will have to tell me what this means, but I think it means that the speakers impedance was dipping too low, triggering the fault. We'll see.

OK tried my iPod test again. Completely removed the Dodd pre, the Pio CD Player, and the interconnects from the equation.
Plugged the ipod directly into the amp-(as simple a config as you can get :rolleyes:) max volume on the iPod (and I do have the volume limited a bit as well)--I was able to reproduce the fault again. I'm not really sure why I wasn't able to do this before-maybe I didn't max the volume out?? So its not an issue with the pre output being too high or having too much gain, its not an issue with the ICs acting as AM antennas, its not an issue with a mismatch between the pre and the amp. It seems to simply be the impedance issue (again remains to be seen for sure).

One update, I said that the fault occurs at the time when the violin gears up thinking it was a higher frequency, however after getting my listening right-its actually at the same time as the first drum/bass beat, so its likely that lower freq, rather than the higher violin freq. But you might be able to see/hear that for yourself in the videos above.

Anyway-that just an update so far- I still need to reproduce this test with my other speakers, the Onkyo and the XPA-5, etc.-I'll do those in the morning.

[Face]

Time to unload it.

[george daniel]

^^^^^what he said^^^^^^

[WilliamM2]

The LSi's would only drop that low if that were the only frequency playing. That rarely happens in real music.

I think the XPA is defective.

[mmadden28]

Hopefully if I actually get time tonight and I can stay awake long enough-I'll try to reproduce this on my XPA-5-I just haven't had the time to finish my testing...

Anybody else out there have a pair of LSi9s, an iPod and an XPA-2, and the Carrie song, willing to try this? :D:rolleyes:

[Early B.]

Hopefully if I actually get time tonight and I can stay awake long enough-I'll try to reproduce this on my XPA-5-I just haven't had the time to finish my testing...

Anybody else out there have a pair of LSi9s, an iPod and an XPA-2, and the Carrie song, willing to try this? :D:rolleyes:

What have the folks at Emotiva said about this issue?

[mmadden28]

What have the folks at Emotiva said about this issue?

Nothing yet, I haven't had the chance to call Lonnie back-I really wanted to check the other things first (other XPA-5, etc) so I could just discuss all in one call and not pester him with little bits of info here and there.
Well, the wife is off getting her toes done and the kids are roaming around the house causing havok-hmmm no time like the present to do some testing :D

[mmadden28]

Tonights testing:
Using the same CD Player, song, Dodd ELP (same volume) into the XPA-5, and into the RTi12's--No Fault!!

Using the same CD Player, song, Dodd ELP (same volume) into the XPA-5, and into the LSi9's--No Fault!!

Tried using the Onkyo 805 as a pre, but since its such a different animal (not just a simple volume control), so no way for me to do a true comparison-but it did not fault! In the Onk the speakers are set SMALL (xo 80), and thus would'nt output a full range signal-I really didn't want to mess up my settings-I think I have the test results I need.

[LessisNevermore]

Tonights testing:
Using the same CD Player, song, Dodd ELP (same volume) into the XPA-5, and into the RTi12's--No Fault!!

Using the same CD Player, song, Dodd ELP (same volume) into the XPA-5, and into the LSi9's--No Fault!!

Tried using the Onkyo 805 as a pre, but since its such a different animal (not just a simple volume control), so no way for me to do a true comparison-but it did not fault! In the Onk the speakers are set SMALL (xo 80), and thus would'nt output a full range signal-I really didn't want to mess up my settings-I think I have the test results I need.

It sure sounds to me like there is a faulty component inside the XPA-2. If your fault condition is repeatable with the same piece of music, in the same spot of the song, yeah something's not right.

I have had my XPA-5 go into protect a few times with my 9's, but it was due to a "less than snug" IC. I put a gentle squeeze on the end of the cable, and no issues since.

I do remember (on the Emotiva board) someone having problems using silver wires, but it was more a shielding issue of the twisted IC's, more than the content of the wire. I know you swapped IC's, but that might be something to consider, as well.

It seems the XPA's might be a bit finicky with IC's.

Good luck, I'm confident Emotiva will make it right, if the amp is the problem.

[mmadden28]

OK did all my testing and spoke to Lonnie again today-based on the results there likely isn't anything wrong with any of the equipment and is likely just a combination of the freq of the music being played, the volume at which its played, the low impedance speakers (with an even lower imp. dip at certain frequencies), and the protection circuitry in the XPA-2 doing its designed job.

Why would the setup work fine on the XPA-5? It doesn't have the same current providing capacity as the XPA-2 and won't hit that critical current level that would trip the protection circuitry.

Why do I think the LSi9's didn't sound too loud when the XPA-2 goes into protect? Its likely my listening level needs to be higher than others-or it could be that I am used to the loudness of the RTi-12s, which are a more eff. speaker. I don't know, just a thought. Purely speculation and self observation there.

Well I have two options now (outside of leaving a 1/4ohm resistor in series)-I can send it in to get checked out, or I can leave well enough alone, and just be careful with volume.
Well OK, three---I could change my speakers :(.

Lonnie said he would be more than happy to take it and run it through its courses. His aim is my complete satisfaction with the amp. And maybe perhaps tweak the protection circuit a bit to let it go a tad bit farther. :cool::cool::cool:

I'll do both (not change the speakers-at least not right now)--For now I'm going to table sending it in since I would have to deal with shipping and shipping costs. So I am going to finish getting my 2 channel setup finished (is it ever?)and start enjoying some music. I am just too into it right now to take a vacation from the music. Later when I have somne downtime or will not be able to listen, I'll send it in to get a full workup (if for nothing else but to give me that warm and fuzzy feeling). Other than that issue, i am very happy so far with all the other aspects of my system, well at least as happy as I can be at the moment. I am sure it can get better with better cables, cleaner power, different tubes, but for now I'll enjoy.

If any brave soul out there has the chance, and has an LSI9, XPA-2 setup, try running an ipod, with the same song at almost max, into it and see if you can get it into protect mode. Remember I eliminated the other compnents as the cause so a simple easy to reproduce recipe assuming my stuff is 100% healthy.

Thanks for all the feedback.

[mmadden28]

...
Well I have two options now (outside of leaving a 1/4ohm resistor in series)-I can send it in to get checked out, or I can leave well enough alone, and just be careful with volume.
Well OK, three---I could change my speakers :(.

Actually I could also run my setup with the speakers set to small and use a sub, when using a CDP or other source. I do plan to eventually run with a sub and that may resolve my issue from ever happening again anyway since it was the lower frequencies that pushed the setup beyond its limits.. And it might actually allow more power to go to the higher freqs for yet more improvement---Hmmm :rolleyes:


-Madden

[Early B.]

Yo Mad --

What are you thinking? Now you got a good reason to upgrade your speakers, so do it! If not, at least jump on Ben's crossover mod for the 9's.

[Face]

Makes sense. Upgrade your speakers because your amp can't handle them.

[jerryj12]

I certainty don't know half as much about this as you guys, but I do own an XPa-2. The speakers Ben speaks of( Lsi 15's ), I melted the Xo's with that very amp. I have never even seen the red lights do what yours have done. Just my 2 cents.

[WilliamM2]

Well I have two options now (outside of leaving a 1/4ohm resistor in series)-I can send it in to get checked out, or I can leave well enough alone, and just be careful with volume.
Well OK, three---I could change my speakers .


You have four options. The 4th is to return that defective amp and get a refund. There is no reason it should shut down at anything less than earsplitting levels.

[mmadden28]

Yo Mad --

What are you thinking? Now you got a good reason to upgrade your speakers, so do it! If not, at least jump on Ben's crossover mod for the 9's.

Already on it--Have the parts on order. :D

A reason? Yeah-I can see explaining that to the wife-"Hey honey, you know that amp I just bought that you don't know about? Yeah, well I need to buy new speakers because the other 'extra speakers' are not up to the task. You don't mind right honeybunches?" Yeah that'll go over real well. ;)

[mmadden28]

You have four options. The 4th is to return that defective amp and get a refund. There is no reason it should shut down at anything less than earsplitting levels.

I plan to send it in to get checked out, but just not right now-I want to get setup first and wait for some downtime. It's not a rush with a 5 year warranty :cool: and it still functions--now if it were a doorstop...it'd be there next week. Now if it starts to give me crap while listing to Smetana or George Winston, well then we'll have a problem..:o

Until I get it in for diags, I won't know for sure, it could be a bad amp-or it could be the combination (amp, speakers, song)--sure would like to know if anybody else can try it. Heck it could even be an issue with the LSi9s.

[mmadden28]

Makes sense. Upgrade your speakers because your amp can't handle them.

Isn't that how it works here? :D :p

[mmadden28]

I certainty don't know half as much about this as you guys, but I do own an XPa-2. The speakers Ben speaks of( Lsi 15's ), I melted the Xo's with that very amp. I have never even seen the red lights do what yours have done. Just my 2 cents.

I followed what Lonnie was explaining to me, but just barely--he said (something like this) there are several protection mechanisms in the amp. one monitors the speaker output, and one monitors the AC power input (or somewhere in the AC/DC power input area). If the current draw (in either area) exceeds a predefined level, it goes into protect mode. If a current spke is caused by a very low impedance load occurs, it will usually pass it on by if its a short term / dynamic thing, but if that output circuit detects a spike at the same time as the input power surges too high and for too long, the amp will go into protect mode. Or something like that-I wasn't going to get into the engineering behind it adn ask him to make it super clear to me.

[mmadden28]

That's odd. The amps I had with meters would go higher with a 4 ohm load. Which makes sense, since they are measuring output.

I double checked with Lonnie on the meter thing to confirm I quoted him right-last thing I want to do is spread falsities. The meters are calibrated for an 8 ohm load. When the meters hit into the red, you're just about at max amp output capacity.
If you put a 4 ohm load on, max capacity is actually about 2/3 to 3/4 of the max poss meter reading. So you could hit the amps max rated output long before hitting the red (not talking protect mode here). It a logarithmic thing-hence why its not halved.

[Face]

Isn't that how it works here? :D :p
It's usually the opposite. ;)

[mmadden28]

It's usually the opposite. ;)

I knew dat :p I was just being sarcastic. (or whatever the proper word is) :)

[mikeflores]

I am researching the XPA-2 and ran across this thread. How are you liking your XPA-2 and XPA-5? Have you had any other problems? Thanks.

[mmadden28]

I am researching the XPA-2 and ran across this thread. How are you liking your XPA-2 and XPA-5? Have you had any other problems? Thanks.

So far I am very happy with them. I haven't had any other issues with them and they run cool-so no complaints. My HT rig has never sounded better.

I've considered buying another XPA-2 during this sale, to run each bridged as monoblocks, but, while I haven't seriously looked into it yet, something tells me when running bridged they won't handle the 4 (and less) ohm load of the LSi9's-I think running bridged they will only handle the 8ohm loads--but I'm not sure so dont' quote me on that. Anyway my reason for holding out is I may jump on a couple XPA-1 mono's when they come out. But I'm in no rush at this point-I'm happy with them for now.

As far as the XPA-2 issue I had/have with this thread--I haven't had the opportunity to send it in for a checkup yet, but I still intend to do so just for piece of mind or to get the protection circuit tuned to be a bit less sensitive and perhaps to have the meters calibrated for my 4 ohm load (they are calibrated for an 8 ohm load).

Good luck in your search.

P.S. Don't discount Emotiva because of the unfortunate recent customer service issue that's the topic of recent discussion. Every company has issues to overcome. They are a good company with good customer service in general.

[W WALDECKER]

Makes sense. Upgrade your speakers because your amp can't handle them. That sounds completely logical to me :cool: