DTS True-HD

[Lowell_M]

I've got my PS3 connected via the Toslink to my H/K AVR-635.

When a Bluray disc lists the only English soundtrack as DTS True-HD, what does the AVR actually decode? The front of the AVR says "DTS" and the sound is unbelievably detailed and dynamic.

We watched Mr. Brooks last weekend, which isn't really an action movie, but during the scenes where Mr. Brooks shoots the couples (I had the volume at about -20) the gunshots were so dynamic and impactful that I don't think an actual gunshot in my basement would have been more realistic. The realism made my wife cry and I curled up into a ball to hide. (for real :o)

The dynamic range of the Blurays seems much wider than standard DVD's with a DTS track. I don't know that my AVR is capable of processing anything other than a standard DTS track, though.

Anybody set me straight or notice similar stuff?

[Keiko]

I think the HD audio can only be passed through HDMI. Toslink and coax don't have the bandwidth. If this is incorrect, someone please set me straight also.

[millerman 3732]

Not to correct you, but its DTS HD Master Audio, or DTS HD MA, not DTS True HD

And no your only getting the DTS 1.5Mbs core from the DTS HD MA track, which is pretty good.

[Lowell_M]

Not to correct you, but its DTS HD Master Audio, or DTS HD MA, not DTS True HD

And no your only getting the DTS 1.5Mbs core from the DTS HD MA track, which is pretty good.

Ok. Thanks. Great memory I've got. Is the other format Dolby True Digital or something like that?

Would be nice if I had the HDMI capabilities, but I'm pretty darn happy with what I've got for now. The PS3 is damn impressive regarding video. I think my only close range HT tweak would be a better sub at this point.

[leroyjr1]

I watched Mr Brooks yesterday and noticed those gun shots were loud as hell compared to what I had the volume at. DTS HD MA ,and Dolby True HD sounds fantastics well worth the upgrade.

[Keiko]

DTS 1.5Mbs core...Is this the same lossy DTS that is on some SD DVD's millerman? Or is this lossless?

[Lowell_M]

I watched Mr Brooks yesterday and noticed those gun shots were loud as hell compared to what I had the volume at. Sounded great.

Hell... I thought I got shot.

[cheddar]

Every DTS-HD MA track includes a DTS core. The core is not lossless, only the full DTS-HD MA decode will produce a lossless reconstruction of the original signal. However, SD-DVD DTS is often only half the bitrate of the 1.5Mbps eventhough it can theoretically be higher. So compared to most SD-DVD DTS tracks, the 1.5Mbps may sound better than those on SD-DVDs. Also, blu-rays may have audio remasters that improve upon the original source used for SD-DVDs. Same for DD tracks as the blu-rays are at the full 640kbps instead of the lower bitrates usually used for SD DVDs.

[cheddar]

Ok. Thanks. Great memory I've got. Is the other format Dolby True Digital or something like that?


The three lossless options are DTS-HD MA, Dolby TrueHD, and Uncompressed PCM. The first two are licensed compression schemes for compressing the original PCM and require less space on the disk. Otherwise they should all be pretty much equivalent to each other.

[millerman 3732]

DTS 1.5Mbs core...Is this the same lossy DTS that is on some SD DVD's millerman? Or is this lossless?

I don't think so, and some one correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the standard DTS track on SD DVD is only 768 kbs, where the DTS core on BD's are 1.5 Mbs

[Lowell_M]

Every DTS-HD MA track includes a DTS core. The core is not lossless, only the full DTS-HD MA decode will produce a lossless reconstruction of the original signal. However, SD-DVD DTS is often only half the bitrate of the 1.5Mbps eventhough it can theoretically be higher. So compared to most SD-DVD DTS tracks, the 1.5Mbps may sound better than those on SD-DVDs. Also, blu-rays may have audio remasters that improve upon the original source used for SD-DVDs. Same for DD tracks as the blu-rays are at the full 640kbps instead of the lower bitrates usually used for SD DVDs.

Thanks! My ears would tend to agree with this.

[Keiko]

cheddar...you the man. Sorry if my ?'s sound dumb on this issue. I'm just trying to gain some information on these new audio formats and round out my knowledge. Thanks :)

Found this linky also...

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59448

[Lowell_M]

Maybe I'll at least referr to them correctly after this. I've definately been hearing a difference, but couldn't understand why. I just thought my mind was screwing with me.

Thanks for the edumacation

[cheddar]

cheddar...you the man. Sorry if my ?'s sound dumb on this issue. I'm just trying to gain some information on these new audio formats and round out my knowledge. Thanks :)

Found this linky also...

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59448

No problem. I've spent way too many hours on forums digging up this info. With BR's 50GB disks, they could have saved us all the trouble and just used uncompressed PCM and saved the licensing fees. But that would have been too easy...;).

[Keiko]

So if I understand this correctly DTS core is double the bitrate vs the DTS audio track on a SD DVD? I'm considering buying a PS3. My receiver doesn't have HDMI inputs, but does have digital. Armed with this information, DTS core would be an improvement over what SD offers. Great! All I have to do now
is convince her. :p :D

[cheddar]

You've got it correct. In many cases you'll hear a difference, but how much that differences is worth to you...ymmv. It's been my experience that the beautiful picture of a Planet Earth usually trumps the awesome rumble of a Transformers...for the other half, that is. Unless you were lucky enough to get together with an audiophile...;).

[Keiko]

LoL! I consider myself lucky. But she's hardly an audiophile. Seems like I'm always getting my ear bent from the other side..."Turn it down!" :o

One more question. Do the newer PS3's have built in decoders for DD, DTS?

[cheddar]

The only thing you have to watch out for in the newer ps3s is differing backwards compatibility with ps2 games. 40gig=none 80gig<60gig.

Otherwise they all do blu-ray pretty much the same as blu-ray playback isn't really that taxing on the system compared to games. They all internally decode TrueHD, DTS-HD MA (via firmware upgrade, very easy if you have home internet) as well as DD and DTS. Uncompressed PCM doesn't need to be 'decoded' as it's already uncompressed. The ps3 will also bitstream DD and DTS to a receiver via optical or hdmi.

[Keiko]

The only thing you have to watch out for in the newer ps3s is differing backwards compatibility with ps2 games. 40gig=none 80gig<60gig.
amazon has the 80gigs for 399.00 and the description claims they are backwards compatible. User reviews say otherwise. (Per my post in the Toshiba thread.) All the conflicting info gets tiresome.

[cheddar]

amazon has the 80gigs for 399.00 and the description claims they are backwards compatible. User reviews say otherwise. You probably saw my post in the Toshiba thread about this. All the conflicting info gets tiresome.

It looks like they finally released the 'new' 80GB version to replace the 40GB. From what I've read elsewhere, I think the big upgrade was to put an 80GB drive in the old 40GB configuration. So it's not backwards compatible just like the 40GB. Looks like the Metal Gear Solid 80GB is still backwards compatible if you can still find it. And MGS4 is a great game too. But it looks like they're finally phasing out the backwards compatibility on currently available models...

Edit: They also took out SACD compatibility in the 40GB. So it might be something else missing from the new 80GB version.

[Keiko]

I have a PS2, although it would be nice to have a 3 that's bw's compatible. Less the mess with one machine. Thanks for all the good info cheddar.

[John K.]

AM, the excellent sound that you described without knowing at first that it was "only" the core DTS track isn't really surprising. Many Blu-rays have fine sound quality regardless of the particular audio format being listened to at the time. Last month's issue of Home Entertainment Magazine described some most interesting results( http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby_TrueHD_DTS-MA_versus_Uncompressed_PCM) from listening tests, blind and otherwise, on the various sound options available.

[Erik Tracy]

AM, the excellent sound that you described without knowing at first that it was "only" the core DTS track isn't really surprising. Many Blu-rays have fine sound quality regardless of the particular audio format being listened to at the time. Last month's issue of Home Entertainment Magazine described some most interesting results( http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby_TrueHD_DTS-MA_versus_Uncompressed_PCM) from listening tests, blind and otherwise, on the various sound options available.

So, this article seems to confirm (as I suspected) that from a bit level perspective, uncompressed DTS-MA & uncompressed TrueHD = PCM (because that is what you start with to get to DTS-MA and TrueHD is the 'original' PCM track).

And from the correctly controlled A/B listening scenario the same is true from an auditory comparison - and that claims to the otherwise are to be doubted.

The only exception would be IF a TrueHD or DTS-MA track were made from a different master track than the 'original' PCM (and from reading avsforum with an 'insider' who does actual movie audio track mixing - this would be an exception for having multiple 'master' tracks as being too cost prohibitive).

OR, if a particular codec were somehow bit manipulating during decompression (but then, they should not be 'certified' as compliant with the different Labs for licensing their products).

Claimed differences could also be due to level mis-matches in gear, but should not be attributed to differences in actual SQ.

There - did I hit the beehive hard enough?? :D

[Lowell_M]

AM, the excellent sound that you described without knowing at first that it was "only" the core DTS track isn't really surprising. Many Blu-rays have fine sound quality regardless of the particular audio format being listened to at the time. Last month's issue of Home Entertainment Magazine described some most interesting results( http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby_TrueHD_DTS-MA_versus_Uncompressed_PCM) from listening tests, blind and otherwise, on the various sound options available.

Good stuff. Thanks.

[Lowell_M]

The only thing you have to watch out for in the newer ps3s is differing backwards compatibility with ps2 games. 40gig=none 80gig<60gig.

Otherwise they all do blu-ray pretty much the same as blu-ray playback isn't really that taxing on the system compared to games. They all internally decode TrueHD, DTS-HD MA (via firmware upgrade, very easy if you have home internet) as well as DD and DTS. Uncompressed PCM doesn't need to be 'decoded' as it's already uncompressed. The ps3 will also bitstream DD and DTS to a receiver via optical or hdmi.

Cheddar, Does the PS3 only output th decoded DTS-HD MA via HDMI, or is there a special connector you can use on the back the splits out into 6 IC's that you coudl connect to a direct 6 channel input on a receiver?

[cheddar]

Cheddar, Does the PS3 only output th decoded DTS-HD MA via HDMI, or is there a special connector you can use on the back the splits out into 6 IC's that you coudl connect to a direct 6 channel input on a receiver?

There is no ps3 analog out except for the L/R connector dongle that you usually see for legacy connections on game consoles. You need at least an hdmi receiver/pre to get at the lossless audio. I used optical for the non-lossless options, and they do sound great. But I finally just broke down and got an hdmi pre and have been very happy with the results.

[TG Meat]

I think I would like to have the ability for analog out, but the PS3 does a good job for me.