Carver vs. ADCOM: Polk 5JR= judge

[zuul]

so a while back i got rid of some klh floor standing 3 way monitor series speakers and got a set of polk 5JR speakers... the polks sound a lot better but still i felt like something was wrong...

my amp was a carver m 1.0t which is the amp that was written up in the carver challenge article in stereophile as being the sonic equivalent of a pair of conrad johnson monoblocks blah blah blah...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/ghostozuul/carver.jpg

i've had the amp about 2 years and it replaced a carver m 0.5t and have had nothing but great things to say about both of them... however... at a conservative 200 wpc i felt like i was never really using the full range of the amp and that at low level it sounded great and at higher volume it sounded great but there was almost no in between...

i decided i needed another amp... i put an ad on craigslist to sell or trade my amp... $300 firm. within 24 hours i got a call offering me an adcom gpa 5300 and $80 cash. A friend in college had adcom gear and i always thought it sounded and looked great but never had any personal experience. I figure if i could get a comparable amp and cash that was a good deal. so now i'm the proud owner of this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/ghostozuul/adcom.jpg

What stands out immediately is how good my speakers are... it reveals the differences between the two amps perfectly and i feel provide a pretty good sonic reference point to compare the two amps...

the adcom seems the be a lot more generous with midrange than the carver while the bass isn't as strong as the carver... the sound stage is totally different, and the separation is slightly more narrow... i don't feel like any of these are negatives as my room is more suited for the smaller and more "realistic" sound stage. I always felt like the carver was a bit exaggerated. the carver was more dynamic than the adcom is and had a more aggressive attack in louder passages but the overall sound of the adcom is warmer and more realistic and not as spacey sounding. maybe saying the adcom is tighter would be more descriptive. a bit of loss of bass and highs is balanced by better midrange and subsequently a more even and flatter sound. the carver was almost too bright...

even more interesting is the power supply situation. of course the carver used that crazy magnetic field power supply which never got hot and used almost no power to produce a lot of sound... the adcom is mosfet and you know it's working b/c the chassis gets warm but never hot. The carver didn't have 5 way binding posts so i had to use pin style connectors on my inner connects and the adcom has 5 way binding posts so i can just use banana jacks so that's convenient...

overall i think the adcom a slightly lesser piece of equipment than the adcom that actually is better suited for my room and my system... although it's not quite got the dollar value of the other amp... or the history and folklore... getting cash back plus the adcom makes a really good deal for me and something i can live with at least until i decide i need to replace it and finally dive into the world of tube amps... but that's another post for another day...

[RuSsMaN]

Synergy in a system is what 'good' sound is all about. It has little to do with folklore or $.

Cheers,
Russ

[daboyz]

Try a GFA545 and then get back to us. I liked this amp a lot more than the M1.5t I had.

[lakesailor]

Even though Bob Carver was more of an engineering type by nature he was also one hell of a good marketer. I spent thousand upon thousands on Carver gear back in the 80’s and fought my Adcom loving buddies like crazy.

In the end while the Carver gear was definitely sexier I had to concede that the Adcom gear outperformed it in most every way. Sonics. Reliability. Value. You name it; Adcom made some pretty good stuff back in those days.

The early MOSFET GFA series like your 5300 was very good. I still prefer the original bi-polar designs like the GFA 545 and GFA 555 however I don’t think you can ever go wrong with those generation Adcom amps.

For the money the GFA 5300 is one of the best amps you can find.

[Schurkey]

Even though Bob Carver was more of an engineering type by nature he was also one hell of a good marketer.
To me, Carver has three "talents"; areas of expertise that really stand out:
1. He could come up with wonderful, sexy, powerful names for more-or-less ordinary items--circuitry, function, whatever. "Sonic Holography", "Magnetic Field Power Supplies", "Tracking Downconverters", etc. A power supply that has variable rail voltage was nothing new, Carver didn't invent the wheel here, but Soundcraftsmen and Hitachi didn't attach the sex and hype to market it like Carver did.

2. He could think "outside the box". The Carver Amazing loudspeakers were a most interesting design. Underdampened woofers in a tapered baffle so the peaky resonance of the drivers is offset by the acoustic leakage of the speaker shape--genius.

3. He has a solid engineering background; he DOES understand circuitry, he DOES "get" how equipment should function. And figuring out that an amplifier with an ohm of output impedance sounds just like a tube amp AND having the courage to prove it--yep, the guy has smarts AND stones. (But the real genius was to describe the process as "Transfer Function Modification" instead of marketing it as "we installed a fifteen-cent resistor ahead of the output terminals!)

That said, I've thought that his products were over-hyped and under-built. Premium performance at a discount price was the goal, but I sometimes thought that the product suffered because of excessive penny-pinching when he specified low-grade parts in his circuits. Almost every one of his pretty-named "inventions" is a cost-cutting measure--variable rail voltage lets him get by with little heat-sinking and fewer output transistors, for instance. The tapered-baffle of the Amazing allowed him to use the cheapest bass drivers on Earth.

Have you noticed that every company he's created has gone Tango Uniform just after he leaves?

Overall--No thanks, I'll take old Aragon amps, thank you.

[RuSsMaN]

Schurkey,

Not commenting on your comments, just commenting on your comment.

Do it.

More often.

You've been here two and a half years with only 35 posts. CP needs more blokes like you with opinions - opinions that are actually posted in a tactful and READABLE manner.

///My opinion on Carver? It's hard to stay on the cutting edge, and not go over to the bleeding edge. He's a certified audio genius (nut?), and no matter which side of the love/hate (carver) fence you fall on, you have to respect the man. He has, and hopefully will continue to keep it interesting.///


Kudos, looking forward to more. That is all.

-Rooster

[zuul]

///My opinion on Carver? It's hard to stay on the cutting edge, and not go over to the bleeding edge. He's a certified audio genius (nut?), and no matter which side of the love/hate (carver) fence you fall on, you have to respect the man. He has, and hopefully will continue to keep it interesting.//

-Rooster

rumors here in the great pacific northwest are that bob carver is getting involved again with audio source in some capacity...

[motorstereo]

I'll go against the general consensus as I've had just the opposite experience. I upgraded from an adcom gfa 555II to a carver zr 1600 to power my 2.3s. Granted the carver has 150 watts more power but it just does everything so much better than the adcom. Soundstage, vocals, clarity, bass slam all got mucho better with the carver even at low listening levels. Different strokes for different folks I'm sure; but I really like my carver polk combo.

[Jonesy]

Interesting read Zuul, thanks. I'm currently running an Adcom pre through a Carver pro amp and am very happy. However I do keep struggling with the notion of going with a 555 to match the Pre.

[ben62670]

I did an Adcom vrs sunfire. I was all hyped up about getting some Carver gear. I so wanted it to sound good. Tons of power, less weight, less heat, less currant draw.... It took all of 20 minutes before I packed it back up and resold it. I was so turned off by it that I don't even want to try any other carver gear. The sound was just fake.

[heiney9]

Not turn this into Carver bashing because I do respect the man and the "legend" he has created. But, I've never found a Carver piece that I enjoyed. At one of our local gatherings we had a 1.5T and a piece of Sunfire gear and they just didn't float my boat like the 555. The real gem of the meet was the Marsh A200.

Different strokes.......system synergy.......etc.,etc.

H9

[zuul]

thanks everyone for their responses....

after a weekend with the adcom i've realized it's lacking in some areas but it's more "livable" than the carver was...

just like i feel like i'll never get to drive all the cars i'd like to... i feel the same way about 2 channel gear... like cars... i've had so many amps and preamps and receivers and speakers over the years... and as my tastes refine and mature (i'm almost 40! yikes!) my need for tons of bottom and shredding highs has waned

i'm very fortunate in that there's a great shop here in portland where they are very enthusiastic about high quality gear and have no problem loaning out a piece of you're interested in testing it. not only that but they're very friendly and knowledgeable. as an audiophile on a budget, it's really frustrating and depressing to constantly be talked down to and ignored at higher end stereo shops so it's nice to know that they're not all like that...
most of the tube stuff i hear i like is WAY out of my price range... some of the "affordable" stuff sounds ok but nothing i'd write home about... the proprietor suggested i take home a linn lk85 to listen to... and i had planned to until i got the adcom... and still might... but i don't test drive cars i'll never buy anymore... and i hate teasing myself w stuff out of my price range...

i've never soldered anything in my life or i'd explore a kit of some kind just to pass some time and pursue my interest that way.... furthermore i'd probably attempt some of the crossover updates on my 5JR's... but i've tried to soldier before and it's just not gone well... fumble fingers... (like jimmy page)

some people have suggested that i might like a tube preamp/solid state amp set up better than a tube amp but again that's cost prohibitive at this juncture in my life so in the meantime i have to make the best of what i can...

[lakesailor]

To me, Carver has three "talents"; areas of expertise that really stand out:
1. He could come up with wonderful, sexy, powerful names for more-or-less ordinary items--circuitry, function, whatever. "Sonic Holography", "Magnetic Field Power Supplies", "Tracking Downconverters", etc. A power supply that has variable rail voltage was nothing new, Carver didn't invent the wheel here, but Soundcraftsmen and Hitachi didn't attach the sex and hype to market it like Carver did.

2. He could think "outside the box". The Carver Amazing loudspeakers were a most interesting design. Underdampened woofers in a tapered baffle so the peaky resonance of the drivers is offset by the acoustic leakage of the speaker shape--genius.

3. He has a solid engineering background; he DOES understand circuitry, he DOES "get" how equipment should function. And figuring out that an amplifier with an ohm of output impedance sounds just like a tube amp AND having the courage to prove it--yep, the guy has smarts AND stones. (But the real genius was to describe the process as "Transfer Function Modification" instead of marketing it as "we installed a fifteen-cent resistor ahead of the output terminals!)

That said, I've thought that his products were over-hyped and under-built. Premium performance at a discount price was the goal, but I sometimes thought that the product suffered because of excessive penny-pinching when he specified low-grade parts in his circuits. Almost every one of his pretty-named "inventions" is a cost-cutting measure--variable rail voltage lets him get by with little heat-sinking and fewer output transistors, for instance. The tapered-baffle of the Amazing allowed him to use the cheapest bass drivers on Earth.

Have you noticed that every company he's created has gone Tango Uniform just after he leaves?

Overall--No thanks, I'll take old Aragon amps, thank you.


Schurkey, I also agree with Russman - that was a great post and really accurately sums up my views on Carver as well.

I would also add that some of Carver’s products were more hit and miss than others. You mentioned the Carver Amazing loudspeakers and I would agree; that was probably one of Carver’s greatest achievements of all his components. They were truly great speakers and very innovative

While I always admired his willingness to think outside of the box and try new ideas; as you correctly pointed out execution (build quality) was often far below par and some of his ideas were downright stinkers; from my experience I would submit the magnetic field amplifiers (having gone through three of them)

Having said all of that; Carver was definitely the highlight of the audio world in the 80’s and really made an impact on the marketplace. I expect we will see more of him again at some point in the future and I see that as a positive.

It’s worth noting that Adcom has really gone downhill as well. They may still be alive (barely) but the new gear is not anywhere near where the old gear was at. They used to be able to hire Nelson Pass to fix things for them (and Nelson did an amazing job for them); however now that he has his own company (Pass Labs) I doubt he is unlikely to moonlight for Adcom anytime soon.

[zuul]

update...

wow. has it been almost 2 years?

so i'm still using the same system as before... adcom gfp-555II (preamp) and an adcom gfa5300 (amp) musical hall mmf2.2 (turntable) with my polk 5jrs series II. since my last post i've added some audioquest interconnects and speaker wire and a 8" polk sub from an rms6000 system... as far as i can tell the sub is the same as the polk psw111... i hardly have it turned up but just enough to fill the bottom end the 5jr's can't hit.... the best thing about the sub... it was FREE.... we have a free table in the basement of my apartment building and it was just sitting there one day... sadly... it's silver, not black... it clashes with the rest of my gear but beggars can't be choosers...

i also added an adcom gft555II tuner just so i can listen to "car talk" and "little steven's underground garage"

lastly... i now have a linux box going into one of the tape loops for recording vinyl and playback of flac and mp3 files...

i've got to say... i'm thoroughly pleased with the system and can't see changing it anytime soon... i'd have to say... for an apartment dweller such as myself it's perfect. i tried a parasound and a naim amp in my system just for comparison sake and neither sounded as warm or natural as the adcom. as i've mentioned before i've had everything from luxman to carver to an old school pioneer sx1280 in here and nothing so far has sounded as good as the adcom and the 5jrs. i get compliments all the time from people who i consider to be knowledgeable about such things...

anyway... i realized i've been lurking for a long time and figured i would update this post for posterity...

thanks!

[Wade Spradley]

Impressive setup! Thanks for the update. I've been running my setup with a Marantz 2325 Receiver, picked up at GoodWill for $15 bills in 2003. I took the chance that it did not work, even with some of the lights blown (since then replaced) it worked. Plays well since I have cleaned it up. Definitely has no problems playing my M7S2's or the M10b's. My original set of 5Jr's are in storage. Currently I have upgraded the tweets in the M7S2's. More work to do on the crossovers eventually.

Enjoy.

[zuul]

Impressive setup! Thanks for the update. I've been running my setup with a Marantz 2325 Receiver, picked up at GoodWill for $15 bills in 2003. I took the chance that it did not work, even with some of the lights blown (since then replaced) it worked. Plays well since I have cleaned it up. Definitely has no problems playing my M7S2's or the M10b's. My original set of 5Jr's are in storage. Currently I have upgraded the tweets in the M7S2's. More work to do on the crossovers eventually.

Enjoy.

i love old marantz gear. i used to have a 2238b that i used as a pre-amp into a luxman m120a power amp that was powering my polk rta 8t's. i think that amp was underrated however b/c it was never enough power for the polks or at least... the polks didn't like the power it was getting from the luxman... i don't think i ever had an amp suitable for those speakers... but i also had no idea what i was doing then and tended towards gear that looked cool w/out knowing if it was compatible with the rest of my system...

i blew lots of tweeters underpowering those speakers and became a life long polk fan b/c whenever i had a blown tweeter or woofer in those 8t's i just put them in a box and got new ones back in the mail. no questions asked.

[snow]

It is always interesting and somtimes funny what people will write about one brand of gear versus another. Personally I think that it is very hard now to compare gear that is 15-20 years old or even oder accurately due to the decomposition of electrolytic caps at different levels on different models of gear. You can actually take 2 of the same brand and model of amp and hear two distinctly different sounds from each.

I have owned several different models of Adcom Carver and Sunfire gear and sometimes I preferred one over the other. I guess its all about finding the right amp for you and the synergy that is present and remember that the tinny highs grainy mids weak bass that you may hear may be just what the doctor ordered for another persons ears.



REGARDS SNOW

[Wade Spradley]

Replacing the caps is one thing I have been considering in rebuilding the Marantz 2325. This website, has got me thinking about it,

http://www.irebuildmarantz.com/restoration/2325.html

Currently I am not quite ready to fund it, maybe in the next year or so. Or I could take the money and purchase a different setup to run my Polks. But for some reason I like the sound of the older style Marantz receivers. As a DIY project, it may be a little more than I want to get into at this time. So for now, I'll enjoy it as it is.

[reeltrouble1]

an examination of that which is now decomposed demonstrates what is is what was and what will be, accordingly, everything is what everything was.

RT1

[zuul]

and remember that the tinny highs grainy mids weak bass that you may hear may be just what the doctor ordered for another persons ears.



REGARDS SNOW

lol.

[thsmith]

an examination of that which is now decomposed demonstrates what is is what was and what will be, accordingly, everything is what everything was.

RT1

RT1, you ever heard of Brother Dave Gardner ?

The above sounds like something he would say.

Rejoice Dear Hearts

[erniejade]

"little steven's underground garage"


I listen to that on WXRT LOL good show!

[dorokusai]

Adcom.

[leftwinger57]

It does seem like Carver is builing indy amps again. On E-bay just the other day there was this clean but very industrial looking .I believed it is called the KT-88amp mono blocks. Ther's a picture of him or his partner hand reeling a xfmr. The last bid I saw was for $4200 and change. This looked great but I'll stay w/ my Adcomm-gfa555 w/ the handles.