How to tune the SR's

[MacLeod]

After 4 years with my beloved SR's and 3 years competing in SQ competitions with both the SR5250 and 6500, Ive learned a lot about them and thought Id share some of the tidbits Ive come across in the way of tuning these beauties......plus Im bored and this will kill a good 20 minutes.

If youre going to separate the tweeter from the mid, wire them out of phase. In both my truck and my car, they blended in and the image pulled up higher a ton with them out of phase. Having them wired in phase with each other also caused some cancellation at the crossover point.

The SR5250's will play well passed 5 KHz at 90 degrees off axis but I found 5 K to be the best crossover point for them with the mids low and the tweeters high in the car. Any higher than 5 and things thinned out a little too much. I also found using shallow slopes like 12 db worked well. I found a 12 db cutoff slope on both mid and tweet made them blend in very well and kept my stage nice and high.

The SR6500's will play sky high for a 6.5. They dont start rolling off til passed 6.5 KHz @ 90 degrees off axis but they dont "play well" higher than 4. For these speakers I believe 4 KHz is the best crossover point. This was the case in my big Dodge Ram and in my little Honda Accord. 3.2 KHz got a little "thicker" and 5 KHz got too "thin" but 4 KHz was the most realistic. However, unlike the 5250's Ive found a steeper slope works better here. Ive got mine cutoff at 24 db/octave. I tried them at 12 db like the 5.25's but it gave the midrange a little too much "reverby" sound and I never could dial it out.

As sweet as the ring radiator tweeters are, theyre a BITCH to tune in a car. Theyre very directional and can give you fits cause theyll play some frequencies louder on one side of the car than the other. For instance, 10 KHz is 4 db louder from the left tweeter but 12 KHz is 3 db louder from the right tweeter and so on. This doesnt necessarily affect the SQ from them but does wreak havoc on your imaging. The upside is that once theyre dialed in they sound awesome! Very clean and smooth. They dont play down low very well so forget about crossing them over anywhere near 2.5 K or even 3. While theyll get that low, they wont play with enough balls to blend in properly with the mids.

Since the tweeters are so directional, the best place to mount them is up high. The A pillars are my favorite, but you can also use the dash. These tweeters are very smooth and even firing off the windshield, they wont be harsh so long as theyre attenuated.

Speaking of which, turn em down! If you dont have a crossover with a level on it then use the one on the passive crossover and cut em the full 3 db. Mine are at -8 right now.

The SR5250's have excellent midbass for a speaker as small as they are. I never got dinged for weak midbass when I ran them in '07. That being said, dont run them too low. 50 Hz is the absolute lowest I would go. They will play much lower but they wont sound good. They get sloppy below 50.

The 6500's have weird midbass. They have a lot of energy but they dont have great "punch". They seem to dip around 63 Hz which is where the punch is. However, they are pretty boomy at 80 Hz so youll want to cut that frequency a bit especially if youre listening to jazz or music with a stand up bass guitar in it.

The 6500's have a double edged sword thing going on with their low end response. While theyll play down to 40 Hz all day long AND sound good doing it, frequencies below 63 Hz will cause them to bottom out pretty quick if you crank em up too much. If you listen to your music at a fairly low to moderate level then cut them puppies off at 40 Hz and enjoy all that wonderful up front bass. But if you listen at pretty stout volumes then youre gonna want to cut em at 63 Hz and let the sub handle everything below that.

As for midrange, both the 6500 and 5250 are near perfect at it. All youre gonna have to do is cut whatever frequencies the car's interior is causing to peak and then let the SR's do the rest. This is a huge benefit in tuning cause getting a realistic midrange dialed in aint easy. Luckily the Polk engineers did all the legwork.

The SR mids are just stupid off axis. Impressive enough the 6500 will do 5 KHz while still being able to hit 40 Hz but the 5250 will play up to 8 freaking-KHz at 90 degrees off axis before rolling off and that is just insane! It also means that you can mount these babies pretty much anywhere and not have to worry about getting them on axis which makes them easier to mount in the kicks if you want to and not have to worry about taking up leg room.

I have noticed the 6500s have a little peak around 800 Hz. The 5250s didnt have this but the 6500's do both in my old Ram and in my Accord so youre gonna want to doctor this frequency range up some.

The 6500's are gonna give you some problems in focusing up the imaging. For some reason the midrange focus in the 630-1200 Hz range seems to want to smear to the right. This was true in my Ram and Accord. I cant get it figured out. I do know that seating position affects it. With my seat leaned way back, this problem is gone - with it in a driving position, its there so when installing yours, take that into consideration. The 5250's didnt have this problem.

Dont enclose the SR's! They work best in free air.

Well thats all I can think of off the top of my head. If I think of any other wonderful tidbits Ill pass em on.

[killerb]

hey mac, did you balance both sides? meaning if the right side was 3db higher @ 5khz did you cut the right side by 3db? i used my rta to take a measurement of the right side alone and then the left side alone. then i balanced both side so i was getting equal energy at all frequencies. this seemed to help keep the image stable. any other tips you can give us? thanks for the info.

[MacLeod]

Yup. I cant afford an RTA so I do it the old fashioned way. I use a Radio Shack SPL meter and 1/3 octave filtered pink noise. Play each frequency once on left channel then on right channel, measure and adjust til theyre both equal.

[Eric W]

After 4 years with my beloved SR's and 3 years competing in SQ competitions with both the SR5250 and 6500, Ive learned a lot about them and thought Id share some of the tidbits Ive come across in the way of tuning these beauties......plus Im bored and this will kill a good 20 minutes.

If youre going to separate the tweeter from the mid, wire them out of phase. In both my truck and my car, they blended in and the image pulled up higher a ton with them out of phase. Having them wired in phase with each other also caused some cancellation at the crossover point.

The SR5250's will play well passed 5 KHz at 90 degrees off axis but I found 5 K to be the best crossover point for them with the mids low and the tweeters high in the car. Any higher than 5 and things thinned out a little too much. I also found using shallow slopes like 12 db worked well. I found a 12 db cutoff slope on both mid and tweet made them blend in very well and kept my stage nice and high.

The SR6500's will play sky high for a 6.5. They dont start rolling off til passed 6.5 KHz @ 90 degrees off axis but they dont "play well" higher than 4. For these speakers I believe 4 KHz is the best crossover point. This was the case in my big Dodge Ram and in my little Honda Accord. 3.2 KHz got a little "thicker" and 5 KHz got too "thin" but 4 KHz was the most realistic. However, unlike the 5250's Ive found a steeper slope works better here. Ive got mine cutoff at 24 db/octave. I tried them at 12 db like the 5.25's but it gave the midrange a little too much "reverby" sound and I never could dial it out.

As sweet as the ring radiator tweeters are, theyre a BITCH to tune in a car. Theyre very directional and can give you fits cause theyll play some frequencies louder on one side of the car than the other. For instance, 10 KHz is 4 db louder from the left tweeter but 12 KHz is 3 db louder from the right tweeter and so on. This doesnt necessarily affect the SQ from them but does wreak havoc on your imaging. The upside is that once theyre dialed in they sound awesome! Very clean and smooth. They dont play down low very well so forget about crossing them over anywhere near 2.5 K or even 3. While theyll get that low, they wont play with enough balls to blend in properly with the mids.

Since the tweeters are so directional, the best place to mount them is up high. The A pillars are my favorite, but you can also use the dash. These tweeters are very smooth and even firing off the windshield, they wont be harsh so long as theyre attenuated.

Speaking of which, turn em down! If you dont have a crossover with a level on it then use the one on the passive crossover and cut em the full 3 db. Mine are at -8 right now.

The SR5250's have excellent midbass for a speaker as small as they are. I never got dinged for weak midbass when I ran them in '07. That being said, dont run them too low. 50 Hz is the absolute lowest I would go. They will play much lower but they wont sound good. They get sloppy below 50.

The 6500's have weird midbass. They have a lot of energy but they dont have great "punch". They seem to dip around 63 Hz which is where the punch is. However, they are pretty boomy at 80 Hz so youll want to cut that frequency a bit especially if youre listening to jazz or music with a stand up bass guitar in it.

The 6500's have a double edged sword thing going on with their low end response. While theyll play down to 40 Hz all day long AND sound good doing it, frequencies below 63 Hz will cause them to bottom out pretty quick if you crank em up too much. If you listen to your music at a fairly low to moderate level then cut them puppies off at 40 Hz and enjoy all that wonderful up front bass. But if you listen at pretty stout volumes then youre gonna want to cut em at 63 Hz and let the sub handle everything below that.

As for midrange, both the 6500 and 5250 are near perfect at it. All youre gonna have to do is cut whatever frequencies the car's interior is causing to peak and then let the SR's do the rest. This is a huge benefit in tuning cause getting a realistic midrange dialed in aint easy. Luckily the Polk engineers did all the legwork.

The SR mids are just stupid off axis. Impressive enough the 6500 will do 5 KHz while still being able to hit 40 Hz but the 5250 will play up to 8 freaking-KHz at 90 degrees off axis before rolling off and that is just insane! It also means that you can mount these babies pretty much anywhere and not have to worry about getting them on axis which makes them easier to mount in the kicks if you want to and not have to worry about taking up leg room.

I have noticed the 6500s have a little peak around 800 Hz. The 5250s didnt have this but the 6500's do both in my old Ram and in my Accord so youre gonna want to doctor this frequency range up some.

The 6500's are gonna give you some problems in focusing up the imaging. For some reason the midrange focus in the 630-1200 Hz range seems to want to smear to the right. This was true in my Ram and Accord. I cant get it figured out. I do know that seating position affects it. With my seat leaned way back, this problem is gone - with it in a driving position, its there so when installing yours, take that into consideration. The 5250's didnt have this problem.

Dont enclose the SR's! They work best in free air.

Well thats all I can think of off the top of my head. If I think of any other wonderful tidbits Ill pass em on.
I too have played around with the SR6500 and your observations are spot on. I've tuned mine with a RTA and you're right there is a tiny peak at 800 Hz. I also crossover my system at 63 Hz. Great minds think alike! :)

[Jstas]

I too have played around with the SR6500 and your observations are spot on. I've tuned mine with a RTA and you're right there is a tiny peak at 800 Hz. I also crossover my system at 63 Hz. Great minds think alike! :)

Don't patronize him, he just likes to see himself type.

It probably took him a solid week to get all that out.

[eloplayspolo]

lol :p

[black magic]

Thanks for all that info, mac. When I eventually get a processor I will definitely be referring to this thread again. I agree with what you said about the tweeter being louder on one side. Its really annoying me and there isn't much I can do about it except play with the fader... but that doesn't work very well since it fades the drivers as well.

[Topper]

Excellent write-up bud :). What about the SR subs - any tuning thoughts on those?

[MacLeod]

Thanks for all that info, mac. When I eventually get a processor I will definitely be referring to this thread again. I agree with what you said about the tweeter being louder on one side. Its really annoying me and there isn't much I can do about it except play with the fader... but that doesn't work very well since it fades the drivers as well.

Its weird. Its not necessarily that one tweeter is playing louder, its only playing some frequencies louder. If I remember right, 2, 2.5 and 3 are louder on the left side but 4 and 5 are the same then 8 and 10 are louder on the right, then 12 is louder on the left but 16 is louder on the right.


Excellent write-up bud :). What about the SR subs - any tuning thoughts on those?

Ya dont really need much. These things play damn near ruler flat. Basically all youre going to have to do with these is level match them with the front stage.

[Kinetic]

woow thanks a lot, this is very very helpful

[Installer4life]

I have heard of amplifiers playing louder on one side but not speakers. In fact that one of the advantages of buying a better amp is you don't have that difference in volume.
Anyway I love my SR components but my 6.5's cause my door panels to rattle. Its an old truck with plastic door panels so for now I run my 5250's down to 80hz and I have turned the 6.5 SR6501's off.

[black magic]

yeah, my door panels vibrate too. you can hear buzzing when I turn it up.

[MacLeod]

Its not really that the speaker is playing louder on one side, but rather the frequencies interacting with the car. If I were to sit in the middle of the car everything would be equal. All my comments were based on what the speakers are doing in my car with me sitting in the drivers seat.

[tk421]

excellent post. i noted you chose full active over the supplied (expensive, impressive) x-overs. that's a thing a LOT of SQ fans do. keep it up man.

[Kinetic]

Mac

i did have that problem, that some times it feels like the right tweet is higher, but just in some songs.

but i have the Imprint processor, do you know how can i tune it with this processor?

also, is it a good idea to buy the PXA-H701 ? or I should stick to the Imprint.
i have good results with the imprint, and i can say im happy with it.

also if i buy the PXA-H701, how can i tune it with out buying a RUX-C701, or a IVA head unit?

[black magic]

also if i buy the PXA-H701, how can i tune it with out buying a RUX-C701, or a IVA head unit?

If you want the H701 processor you will either need the control unit for it (the RUX-C701) or you'll need an alpine head unit that has control over the processor via the Ai-NET cable such as the DVA-9861. Not all of Alpine's headunits have the ability to control that processor.

[MacLeod]

Mac

i did have that problem, that some times it feels like the right tweet is higher, but just in some songs.

but i have the Imprint processor, do you know how can i tune it with this processor?

also, is it a good idea to buy the PXA-H701 ? or I should stick to the Imprint.
i have good results with the imprint, and i can say im happy with it.

also if i buy the PXA-H701, how can i tune it with out buying a RUX-C701, or a IVA head unit?

The best way to use the 701 is with the remote. It is SO much easier to tune with.

As for ditching the Imprint, if youre happy with it, then stay with it. If it aint broke, dont break it.

[Kinetic]

If it aint broke, dont break it.

you are absolutley right, and also i dont know how to tune the H701, and im getting close to the perfection on tuning the Imprint module, and Alpine tech guys have been so nice making a data base on tuning the imprint.

its such a nice processor, if you tune it right.


also how much RMS, can the woofers and tweeters can handle

i have right now my bi amping with 50-70RMS on the tweets and 75-100RMS on the woofers aprox

[dirthog]

Thanks MacLeod, I have had my 6500 for over 2yrs now and I hope you don't mind if I give some of my opinions here.




If youre going to separate the tweeter from the mid, wire them out of phase. In both my truck and my car, they blended in and the image pulled up higher a ton with them out of phase. Having them wired in phase with each other also caused some cancellation at the crossover point.

Depends on vehicle. I have tried them in the sails, corner of the dash and currently above the mids in the door, just under the dash. I do agree try them out of phase but I have also found good results other ways.

Try just one of the tweeters out of phase to see what sounds best. If it sounds better with one tweeter out of phase switch both tweeters so the other is now out of phase to see if there is an improvement.



Since the tweeters are so directional, the best place to mount them is up high. The A pillars are my favorite, but you can also use the dash. These tweeters are very smooth and even firing off the windshield, they wont be harsh so long as theyre attenuated.

The best location I have found is above the mid just under the dash. I have not lost stage height and everything else improved imaging, tonality etc.

In the other locations I just couldn't get to where I'm at now. Each location was on axis and I tuned for over six months every time.

Speaking of which, turn em down! If you dont have a crossover with a level on it then use the one on the passive crossover and cut em the full 3 db. Mine are at -8 right now.

Agree, but again experiment to see what sounds best.


The 6500's have weird midbass. They have a lot of energy but they dont have great "punch". They seem to dip around 63 Hz which is where the punch is. However, they are pretty boomy at 80 Hz so youll want to cut that frequency a bit especially if youre listening to jazz or music with a stand up bass guitar in it.

The 6500's have a double edged sword thing going on with their low end response. While theyll play down to 40 Hz all day long AND sound good doing it, frequencies below 63 Hz will cause them to bottom out pretty quick if you crank em up too much. If you listen to your music at a fairly low to moderate level then cut them puppies off at 40 Hz and enjoy all that wonderful up front bass. But if you listen at pretty stout volumes then youre gonna want to cut em at 63 Hz and let the sub handle everything below that.

IMO 40 is way too low and 63 is pushing it. I have had the best results with 80. For me lower than 80 I couldn't crank up the volume and the doors started to rattle. (I have sealed and deadened my doors) The 6500 just sounded like it was loosing clarity. No sense in having your sub only play a small portion of the frequency range.



I have noticed the 6500s have a little peak around 800 Hz. The 5250s didnt have this but the 6500's do both in my old Ram and in my Accord so youre gonna want to doctor this frequency range up some.

When using test tones as a crude RTA I thought 800 was a bit peaky too. Just don't cut it too much like I first did. After listening I had to raise it up some.

[MacLeod]

Thanks MacLeod, I have had my 6500 for over 2yrs now and I hope you don't mind if I give some of my opinions here.

.....IMO 40 is way too low and 63 is pushing it. I have had the best results with 80. For me lower than 80 I couldn't crank up the volume and the doors started to rattle. (I have sealed and deadened my doors) The 6500 just sounded like it was loosing clarity. No sense in having your sub only play a small portion of the frequency range.

I agree that the sub does a much better job of reproducing sub bass than a midrange speaker can, but Im coming from the perspective of achieving the most accurate soundstage that I can reproduce and since my sub is in the rear as is the case for most people, having it play as low as possible is the best way to keep everything front and center as anything much above 63 Hz starts to become much easier to localize. If you dont care about an accurate soundstage and just want the best tonality possible then youre right on the money by having the sub crossed over higher. But you still have to be careful because anything much over 80 Hz and the sub can become way too boomy and unrealistic.


Depends on vehicle. I have tried them in the sails, corner of the dash and currently above the mids in the door, just under the dash. I do agree try them out of phase but I have also found good results other ways.

Try just one of the tweeters out of phase to see what sounds best. If it sounds better with one tweeter out of phase switch both tweeters so the other is now out of phase to see if there is an improvement.

I dunno bro. Ive had them in 2 different cars (full size truck and mid size sedan) and in 2 different locations in each car and in every instance, they worked better wired out of phase.

[exalted512]

Maybe I missed it, but what do you have the tweeters crossed over at?
-Cody

(btw, have you got a chance to send that tweeter mount yet?)

[MacLeod]

4 KHz @ 24db/octave

[dirthog]

Maybe I missed it, but what do you have the tweeters crossed over at?
-Cody

(btw, have you got a chance to send that tweeter mount yet?)

I have mine at 4 KHz @ 12 slope.

Mid lowpass at 3.1 KHz @ 18 slope. At 4 KHz its too full for me and sibilance starts to be a bit much.

Mid highpass at 80 Hz @ 12 slope.


I agree that the sub does a much better job of reproducing sub bass than a midrange speaker can, but I'm coming from the perspective of achieving the most accurate soundstage that I can reproduce and since my sub is in the rear as is the case for most people, having it play as low as possible is the best way to keep everything front and center as anything much above 63 Hz starts to become much easier to localize. If you dont care about an accurate soundstage and just want the best tonality possible then youre right on the money by having the sub crossed over higher. But you still have to be careful because anything much over 80 Hz and the sub can become way too boomy and unrealistic.

For me the best soundstage is with the mids crossed at 80 Hz. Lower than that and it starts to get muddy and depth is lost. I don't have an eq for 63 Hz (50Hz & 80Hz) so I use the crossover instead.

The SR sub definitely starts to get boomy around 80 Hz, but I think I need a bigger box. I currently have it cross at 50 Hz @ 18. Above that and it gets too boomy for me and again loose depth.




I dunno bro. Ive had them in 2 different cars (full size truck and mid size sedan) and in 2 different locations in each car and in every instance, they worked better wired out of phase.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. That maybe the best sounding in both of your cases but that doesn't mean it will for all others.

I tried both out of phase when the tweeters where in the sails and it sounded better than in phase. I then tried just one tweeter out of phase and got better results.

What I'm really saying is try everything to see what works best, every install, car application is different.

I like talking "SR" because some of the other sites I'm on not too many people have them.

[jalilig35]

i have 2 sr 124 dvc i want this to bang hard!! what do u guys recommend? sealed or ported? how much airspace for both ported and sealed?

[black magic]

i have 2 sr 124 dvc i want this to bang hard!! what do u guys recommend? sealed or ported? how much airspace for both ported and sealed?

I don't recommend that you buy those subs if you're going to use them for SPL.

[dirthog]

I don't recommend that you buy those subs if you're going to use them for SPL.

Agreed, but it sounds like you already have them. Sealed they aren't recommended for ported.

[black magic]

Agreed, but it sounds like you already have them. Sealed they aren't recommended for ported.

Yep. if you already have them, just throw them in a sealed enclosure at 1.2 sqaure ft per chamber and you'll be happy with the way these woofers reproduce low frequencies. :)

[Eric W]

Agreed, but it sounds like you already have them. Sealed they aren't recommended for ported.
You can use them ported. They just need a relatively large box with a large slot vent.

http://www.polkaudio.com/caraudio/subbox/subbox_plan.php?id=98&mesurements=standard

You're right though- if max SPL is the goal, there's better choices out there. SR's main goal was SQ, not SPL.

[keith89]

Are the SR6500's better on or off axis? I'm designing my door panels and would like to set this up properly. i assume they are better on axis and currently have them in the stock locations off axis in the doors. Based on the first post, I'm wondering how different they will be on axis.

[black magic]

Are the SR6500's better on or off axis? I'm designing my door panels and would like to set this up properly. i assume they are better on axis and currently have them in the stock locations off axis in the doors. Based on the first post, I'm wondering how different they will be on axis.

I can see why you'd think that the SR's would be better on-axis as most components are, but the truth is that the SR's have amazing off-axis response as well! ...just make sure you wire the tweeters out of phase if you set them up off axis as recommended. If possible, I would still think that it would be better to have the components set up on axis, but that can be difficult to do in a car.

In any case, good luck and let us know how it goes.

[keith89]

I can see why you'd think that the SR's would be better on-axis as most components are, but the truth is that the SR's have amazing off-axis response as well! ...just make sure you wire the tweeters out of phase if you set them up off axis as recommended. If possible, I would still think that it would be better to have the components set up on axis, but that can be difficult to do in a car.

In any case, good luck and let us know how it goes.


Thanks for the response. I plan on making door pods, so I will probably design them so i can aim them more on axis. I'll be making them from fiberglass, so I can always make 2 different door pods. Its just extra time and effort.

[MacLeod]

I suggest making them on axis if possible. The SR's do have great off axis response BUT they dont equalize that well. Ive always had a lot of problems getting voices, especially female voices to focus up properly. The problem lies in the 1200-3200 Hz range and its VERY hard to tune out. If you can get them both on axis to you then that should help out a lot.

[keith89]

I suggest making them on axis if possible. The SR's do have great off axis response BUT they dont equalize that well. Ive always had a lot of problems getting voices, especially female voices to focus up properly. The problem lies in the 1200-3200 Hz range and its VERY hard to tune out. If you can get them both on axis to you then that should help out a lot.

I agree that certain frequency ranges are hard to focus when they are off axis as I currently have them set up. This will be my winter project as I am working on an amp rack for my zapco dc reference amps as well as well as some other performance related upgrades.

[black magic]

Sounds like you have a fun project lying ahead! What car is this going into?

[Kinetic]

I suggest making them on axis if possible. The SR's do have great off axis response BUT they dont equalize that well. Ive always had a lot of problems getting voices, especially female voices to focus up properly. The problem lies in the 1200-3200 Hz range and its VERY hard to tune out. If you can get them both on axis to you then that should help out a lot.

but if the tuning is not an issue, do the sound better off axis?

i put them off axis, but i have the Alpine Imprint processor, so it does all the job, actually i love the sound of them, but if i put them on axis, could they be better?

also i have them bi-amped, and now i can send more power to the woofer, in compare to the tweeter, and it sound a lot better, than all at the same power, that was a nice trick i learn from you.

[keith89]

Sounds like you have a fun project lying ahead! What car is this going into?

2003 cobra. I was having a return fuel system installed with a few other mods over the summer so I had to take everything out of my trunk.

[black magic]

Nice ride!

Post up some pics when you're all done :)

[keith89]

Nice ride!

Post up some pics when you're all done :)

Thanks. Here are some pics to get you started. The sub and amp setup are temporary. I'm going to sell those Alpine PDX amps or put them in my Focus. I got a pair of Zapco DC reference amps to replace them. I'm planning to do a fiberglass enclosure for the SR124 subwoofer, or possibly downsize to a single 10" or pair of 8" soundsplinters. Haven't decided yet. The SR124 and box from fishercustoms weighs about 50lbs! Need to shed some weight. I of course take everything out when racing.

The SR6500's are in the doors behind that dark rectangle panel. I plan to cut out this rectangle and make fiberglass speaker pods to put them more on axis. The pod will be the same rectangular shape and painted silver to match the door trim and the SR logo on the speaker grill.

[black magic]

Looks good... especially under the hood :). Those newer Alpine amps are TINY!

[exalted512]

Looks great, why didnt you go with a double din?
-Cody

[keith89]

Looks great, why didnt you go with a double din?
-Cody

I was always planning on upgrading to Zapco DC reference amps, so I was planning to get their single din in dash programmer as well. I plan on redoing the interior next year, so I may upgrade to a double din unit. I got a great deal on the AVIC N3 when I was looking for an indash system. I like the resolution of Pioneer's new F series units, but want a larger screen. I'll wait to see what Pioneer comes out with next.

[dirthog]

Just curious, what size box do you have for the sub?

[black magic]

Just curious, what size box do you have for the sub?

If your goal is SQ, around 1.2 sq ft should be what you aim for.

[dirthog]

If your goal is SQ, around 1.2 sq ft should be what you aim for.

That is my goal and I had mine in a 1.2sp ft box but didn't like it. Now it's in 1.4sq ft much better.

So, do you have it in a 1.2?

[keith89]

I have mine in 1.2 after driver displacement.

[black magic]

I believe they recommend from 1.2 to 1.5 sq ft depending on what you're looking for. the lower end of the spectrum will be boomy and the bigger you go, the more low end bass you'll have.

Mine is a bit under 1.2 sq ft but I'll be building a bigger box when I find some time.

[MacLeod]

Mine is 1.25 before driver placement and its perfect. Virtually ruler flat from 20-40 Hz.

[tk421]

i plotted this many times on bass box pro (cheap and ver good software)

the SR6500 woofer looks best in a VENTED 1.0 cu ft enclosure, using a 2" port and tuned to 45 Hz. it's relatively flat all the way down to 50Hz and at that point u can set your cross-over with a steep slope.

i have to be honest. I've not calculated or considered port noise from such a small port. there is a formula/method to do so but it slips my mind now. gotta go back to old training notes.

[MacLeod]

Big difference between looking best and sounding best. I can vouch for the fact that in a 1.27 ft3 sealed box in the trunk of an Accord, it will play flat from 20-40 Hz. My EQ is set to totally flat on my sub. I cant imagine it performing any better than that.

[tk421]

^oops.. in my last post i was refering to the SR6500's 6" mid-bass woofer.

Apparently the thread moved on to subs... my bad.

[MacLeod]

Well obviously I wasnt paying attention either. You plainly state "the SR6500 woofer".

Interesting tho - but a 1 ft3 box for a midrange? Not sure that would fit inside a door panel! :D

[audiofiend]

Could you possibly fix the midrange by adjusting the 63 and 125 fundamental frequencies?

Would parametric eq's help with these freqs or not?

[MacLeod]

The more I mess with this, the more I think its a simple phasing issue as its smearing only to the right side. When I play with time alignment I can get things to focus up pretty good but the center image is over the steering wheel instead of the middle of the dash. So Im coming to the conclusion that the fix for this could be in speaker placement by getting them both on axis to the listener.

[tk421]

^^ my earlier pods were focused with the far speaker being on-axis to the listener. the near speaker was on-axis to the other listener. this is a common approach. it leaves the near speaker 30degress off axis which reduces the intensity, hence putting the image oer the center of the dash. of course, it takes a lot of measuring and listening to get this.

the horrible problem (which is why i scrapped the pods) is that they really change the stock apprearence of the vehicle. i drive a 2-door and they were so intrusive that my foot kept hitting it on entering/exiting the vehicle. as it's a daily driver AND i have a strong personal prefernce to stay with a stock appearance, i decided to go with the stock (flat mounted on the doors) option. i used time alignment to compensate. the center is now center on the dash and at about eye level. it changes slightly with frequency. my tweets are on the a-pillars, crossfiring and out of phase with the 6" woofer. i'm still not happy.

next step is to revie class notes and re-read the articles in CA&E on these topics. thinking of dash mounted pods using the tweet and a 2" or 3" home mid-range.

SQ guys are rarely satisfied :-(

[keith89]

I'm experiencing the same thing in terms of getting the stage focused in the center of the car. I will be making door pods to focus towards the opposite side occupant to try to get things to even out a bit. I will tune the rest with my zapco DC reference amps.

[tk421]

^^ even when i used TA to centre the image, it is a bit too low... pointing to poor speaker angles.

the stage is also non-uniform across the dash (instrument panel to blame). AND the centre focus changes with freq. (i suspect that separating the tweet from the woofer may cause this)

[MacLeod]

That is where a 31 band EQ for each driver is needed. Since each speaker is a different distance from you and has different obstacles between you and it and are at different angles, their output isnt going to be uniform. For instance, 200-400 is much hotter on the left by as much as 6 db. But 160 is 6 db hotter on the right. And this goes on all the way up the spectrum.

[Greg Peters]

The SR5250's will play well passed 5 KHz at 90 degrees off axis but I found 5 K to be the best crossover point for them with the mids low and the tweeters high in the car. Any higher than 5 and things thinned out a little too much. I also found using shallow slopes like 12 db worked well. I found a 12 db cutoff slope on both mid and tweet made them blend in very well and kept my stage nice and high.



When my PXA H701 goes in, I'll probably forgo the passives and bi-amp.

So when I take my SR5250s active you recommend 5khz with a 12db/octave slope?

[tk421]

That is where a 31 band EQ for each driver is needed. Since each speaker is a different distance from you and has different obstacles between you and it and are at different angles, their output isnt going to be uniform. For instance, 200-400 is much hotter on the left by as much as 6 db. But 160 is 6 db hotter on the right. And this goes on all the way up the spectrum.

ohhh... right.... damn.. i should get the alpine thinga-majig that auto-EQs the system... but i hear they add a bit of hiss... (CA&E review)

[Kinetic]

ohhh... right.... damn.. i should get the alpine thinga-majig that auto-EQs the system... but i hear they add a bit of hiss... (CA&E review)

ive got it, but a part from that, its awesome

just follow the alpine tech recomendations, not the manual, to run it.

if you need help, tell me..

[MacLeod]

When my PXA H701 goes in, I'll probably forgo the passives and bi-amp.

So when I take my SR5250s active you recommend 5khz with a 12db/octave slope?

Im a firm believer in having as many octaves as possible coming from a single source and if you can get the mids to play up to 5 KHz, then that leaves only 2 octaves coming from the tweeters and 6-8 coming from the mids (depending how low you play them). So I recommend at least starting with that setting and then tweak from there according to your own personal taste. Even now with my ST6500's Ive got them up to 5 KHz. They dont play that high as easy as the 5250's so I had to do a little tweaking to get them to work. I also have the mids rolling off at 24 db but the tweets at 12 db like before.

I also had good results with both crossed over at 4 KHz. 12 db slopes worked ok but I liked 24 db slopes on both when set at 4 K. Just seemed to focus up better.

[Greg Peters]

Im a firm believer in having as many octaves as possible coming from a single source and if you can get the mids to play up to 5 KHz, then that leaves only 2 octaves coming from the tweeters and 6-8 coming from the mids (depending how low you play them). So I recommend at least starting with that setting and then tweak from there according to your own personal taste. Even now with my ST6500's Ive got them up to 5 KHz. They dont play that high as easy as the 5250's so I had to do a little tweaking to get them to work. I also have the mids rolling off at 24 db but the tweets at 12 db like before.

I also had good results with both crossed over at 4 KHz. 12 db slopes worked ok but I liked 24 db slopes on both when set at 4 K. Just seemed to focus up better.

Thanks, Mac...when the PXA H701 comes in (hopefully this week) I'll start planning going active. Appreciate the guidelines and insight.

[donkeypunch22]

I am so glad I was directed to this site from dirthog, I've learned so much so thanks to MacLeod and to dirthog!

MacLeod, so far I see these crossover points, slopes, attenuation, and phase settings from you:

Tweeter:
highpass= 4KHz @24db
attenuation= -8db
phase= 180 degrees

Midrange:
lowpass= 4KHz @24bd
highpass= 40Hz to 63Hz (pending volume tastes) @????
attenuation= ????
phase= 0

MacLeod, would you please fill in the "????" areas? Thanks for your time!
PS-Actually, anyone please feel free to answer the question also, especially if you run these in an Audi S4!

[MacLeod]

I leave my mids at -0 db. They carry the bulk of the frequency so I tune everything to match up with them.

The slopes for the high pass on my mids is usually 24 db/octacve.

Just so ya know - these arent meant to be the perfect settings. Ive actually since moved my crossover up to 5 KHz with the tweets at 12 db/octave and the mids at 24 db/octave. But this setting took a little tweaking to get it to work just right. The 4 @ 24db/octave I feel is the best "plug and play" setting which is best for somebody that doesnt have that extensive an EQ.

Same goes for the level settings. I had mine at -8. With my current tune, theyre at -4 because Im using the tweeters to carry some upper midrange - but again this took some work to get it together. The tweeter attenuation will depend on your musical tastes, where theyre mounted and the interior of your car. Regardless of all that tho, I feel pretty safe in saying youll have them at least -3.

Also, wiring the tweeters out of phase works if you dont have time alignement. I found that in my car 1.15 ms delay was spot on in blending the mids and tweets and it was no longer necessary for me to run them out of phase. So if you have TA, work with it some and see if you cant get things to blend without changing the polarity.

[donkeypunch22]

For all those wanting to know what MacLeod's settings are without reading through every post, here you go. Thanks MacLeod!

So far I he's given these crossover points, slopes, attenuation, and phase settings:

Tweeter:
highpass= 4KHz@24db(most common) to 5KHz@12db
attenuation= -4 to -8db
phase= 0 to 180 degrees pending driver separation and use of time alignment

Midrange:
lowpass= 4KHz@24bd(most common) to 5KHz@24db
highpass= 40Hz to 63Hz (pending volume tastes) @24db
attenuation= 0
phase= 0

Note: MacLeod uses extensive EQ to dial these settings in.

Hey perhaps, MacLeod, you could give us some of the common EQ settings you have used on the SR6500 given that you had them in two different cars and at many different cross settings ect. Again, thanks!

[dirthog]

Hey perhaps, MacLeod, you could give us some of the common EQ settings you have used on the SR6500 given that you had them in two different cars and at many different cross settings ect. Again, thanks!

Didn't he do that in the first post?

General eq settings are good to know but ultimately you need to find out what works for your car and your taste.

[MacLeod]

Let me say again - the 5 KHz cut off for the tweeters probably wont work very well unless you have a 31 band EQ per channel to crank on things. The 4 KHz cutoff point is the best. It offers the best tonality and imaging with the least amount of work.

The reason Im using 5 instead of 4 is simply because of imaging. Using 5 and the shallow slope gave a little more "air-iness" to the vocal and created a slightly more 3 dimensional image. Again, this took some time to dial in so if you dont have the processing power, youre probably not going to get it to work hence - 4 KHz @ 24 db/oct

[shawnberry45]

so run then in out of phase if you are using them as componants?

[MacLeod]

Run them out of phase if you have them mounted away from the mid's. This helps blend the tweeters and mids together so theyre working together and hitting your ears at the same time.

[dirthog]

so run then in out of phase if you are using them as componants?


Try both to see what sounds better and also try just one or the other out of phase. Use a recording without a lot of bass and isn't too busy so you can hear the crossover point better.

[Greg Peters]

Spam has been reported- spammer feel free to go now ;).

[MacLeod]

Was working on my car last night getting ready for the 09 season and wanted to see how high I could run the SR6500 mids and still sound good. 6.3 KHz. Yup. A 6.5" driver capable of playing 40 Hz with authority can play up to 6.3 KHz before rolling off.

If I remember right, 3.2 was 91 db, 4 was 89 db, 5 was 90 db, 6.3 was 90 db then 8 was 84 and then it started rolling off at about 6 db per frequency which came to about an 18 db slope.

At first I couldnt get them to blend well with the tweeters cut off that high and was about to think 5 was as high as they would go but managed to get it by using a 12 db slope on the tweeters and 12 db slope on the mids. I also bumped up 5-8 on the tweeters a couple db's and it seems to be working.

Its hard to tell for sure because I dont have another car to compare to and when you sit and tune for hours, you can easily convince yourself youve struck gold only to get your ass handed to you at the next show.

The benefits of this is that you can have essentially a coaxial speaker from a single speaker. Having the mid play this high helps cut down on a lot of phase and other issues. The more octaves youve got coming from a single driver the better it will sound so Ive got 7 octaves coming from the mids and only 2 coming from the tweeters.

Granted there will be a point where you can go too high and your stage will be down in the floor but 6.3 is high enough that you can keep your imaging cues up above the dash. Thats where the 12 db slope came in and I added some more delay to the tweeters. Im up to 2.5 ms now and 95% of my stage is halfway up the windshield.

These SR's never stop impressing.

[donkeypunch22]

Thanks for the added input, MacLeod!

[sgesang]

So your setting will be:

Crossover:
Tweeter:
highpass= 6.3KHz@12db
attenuation= -8db
phase= 0

Midrange:
lowpass= 6.3KHz@12db
highpass= 40Hz@24db
attenuation= 0
phase= 0

TA settings:
Left Tweeter -7.15 Right Tweeter -6
Left mid -4.65 Right Mid -3.50
Sub -0

[Kinetic]

thanks a lot, i already try it, and sounds better, the only difference is that i didnt attenuate the tweets, since i already attenuate them on the amp

[MacLeod]

Actually I think my tweeter level is only -6 on the left and -7 on the right.

[arun1963]

Also, wiring the tweeters out of phase works if you dont have time alignement


Run them out of phase if you have them mounted away from the mid's. This helps blend the tweeters and mids together so theyre working together and hitting your ears at the same time.


Try both to see what sounds better and also try just one or the other out of phase. Use a recording without a lot of bass and isn't too busy so you can hear the crossover point better.

Does this mean reversing the polarity of the tweets at the amp? If so is it as simple as;

1. Unscrew and remove amp cover
2. Reverse polarity on the tweets
3. Replace amp cover.

While I do the above, the HU would be off and the front channels (where the tweets are connected) would be disabled. But the cap would still be connected to the amp. Basically want to ensure I dont get a nasty shock!!

Actual distance between mids and tweeters is 14" I am currently using TA I'm assuming the TA settings would also have to be rejigged.

Dan, as a first step if I only reverse polarity on one tweet, whcih one should I do first, the near side or far side?

How much sweeter will David Grey sound?
:)

[MacLeod]

You can either flip the wires at the amp or the tweeter itself. Whichever is easiest for you. Just turn the car off and do it - no need to disconnect anything else.

If you only switch the phase on one, it wont matter which side.

If you have time alignment, you wont need to flip the polarity most of the time. Time alignment affects phase so you can fix the blending issue with TA instead. Using TA will also be a more accurate fix.

[cadenceclipse]

sounds like one of the points of this thread is that "preference" in tuning is a bunch of bs and each speaker is made to be tuned to a certain setting rather than differences in hearing(ear), car acoustics, music genre, etc...no?

[MacLeod]

Umm. No.

Its absolutely about preference and the style of music you listen to.

Jazz needs a more realistic sound in the bass and midbass or else any stand up bass guitar is going to be horribly loud.

Rock and metal have very little sub bass and midbass and due to the screeching guitars you cant turn them up loud enough to get the good bass so you need to tune your system bass heavy.

For rap you may want more sparkle or sizzle in your high end.

For rock and metal too much heat in the high end will sound very shrill and harsh.

My intent in making this thread was NOT to be saying "this is the only way to tune the SR's". My intent was to share what has worked best for me, in my car, for my music and what I am wanting out of it and for everybody else to use a kind of a jumping off point for their own sound.

[arun1963]

If you have time alignment, you wont need to flip the polarity most of the time.

Simple logic, if it ain't broken dont fix it. If TA is giving me better results will stick with that.


Umm. No.

Its absolutely about preference and the style of music you listen to.

Jazz needs a more realistic sound in the bass and midbass or else any stand up bass guitar is going to be horribly loud.

Rock and metal have very little sub bass and midbass and due to the screeching guitars you cant turn them up loud enough to get the good bass so you need to tune your system bass heavy.

For rap you may want more sparkle or sizzle in your high end.

For rock and metal too much heat in the high end will sound very shrill and harsh.

My intent in making this thread was NOT to be saying "this is the only way to tune the SR's". My intent was to share what has worked best for me, in my car, for my music and what I am wanting out of it and for everybody else to use a kind of a jumping off point for their own sound.

Each genre of music requires a different setting as explained by mac. Further within a genre, different cd are recorded differently and it is possible to tweak the setting for each CD to make it sound "best". For me tuning is THE ESSENCE.

When I tune, I divide the sound into five sections,

Subsonic bass : You dont hear this you feel it typically 15-30hz (approx)
Sub Bass : 30-60 hz
Mid bass : 60-200
Mids: 200-3khz
Highs: 3khz-20khz (as a stand alone you can barely hear 12.5 and 20khz is beyond audible reach. however in conjunction with the other high frequencies you can hear the effects of 12.5 and 20khz)

I try to hear each section seperately. I also try and build visual cues. I will typically try to visualise the outline of a man and divide this outline into 4-5 sections. So from the top the head to the nose would be the highs, from the nose to the chest would be the mids, from the chest to the waist is the bid bass and so on. By tuning I want these sections perfectly aligned and the outline itself should be sharp. I believe candence is a glass painter. When I can see the outline done in a medium-fine brush and all the sections aligned, my soundstage and imaging are right. I hope this made some sense.


My objectives while tuning are

1. The mid bass should start at the top of the dash and the highs should go up to the top of the windscreen.

2. The width of the stage should be centred at half the width of the windscreen. All all mid bass upwards frequencies should come from this area. You dont want the stage getting to close to either side speaker. If you close your eyes you should not be able to tell where the speakers are. The sound should come in one channel from front and each frequency should have its own identity and all the frequencies should blend well to form the sharp outline.




I find that using both auditory and visual cues to tune the sound works best for me. This is what works for me

[sgesang]

Does this mean reversing the polarity of the tweets at the amp? If so is it as simple as;

1. Unscrew and remove amp cover
2. Reverse polarity on the tweets
3. Replace amp cover.

While I do the above, the HU would be off and the front channels (where the tweets are connected) would be disabled. But the cap would still be connected to the amp. Basically want to ensure I dont get a nasty shock!!

Actual distance between mids and tweeters is 14" I am currently using TA I'm assuming the TA settings would also have to be rejigged.

Dan, as a first step if I only reverse polarity on one tweet, whcih one should I do first, the near side or far side?

How much sweeter will David Grey sound?
:)

After setting TA, try to listen L & R channels separately (adjust the balance control from your HU all the way back to L or R). Start with either L or R channel, while listen to it, pay attention to where is the sound coming from. if you hear the sound is "barking" directly from the speaker, flip the tweeter phase. If you hear the illusion of soundstage is wider / higher and the sound seems not coming from the speaker, keep the setting and adjust the other side as well. After you have adjusted both tweeter phases, put both channels back in center and listen carefully if soundstage is much better. If you hear the sound shift off center, you need to do minor adjustment of your TA only from the driver's side. I hope this help about adjusting the tweeter phase.

[arun1963]

Tks sgesang. Yes I do what you mention as pat of my tuning routine.

Need to appologise to candence and mac for my last post. Content and context out of line. Just got my knickers twisted by the suggestion that tuning was pointless. Jeez that is my reason for existance. :o

With that out of the way, I have two questions, the first is directed at Mac and the second is for all who read this thread:

1. How would the sr's sound bi-amped thru two 2 ch tube amps?

2. What % of listening time to your car rigs is devoted to tweaking and % devoted to pure listening and enjoying the sound?

[MacLeod]

1. How would the sr's sound bi-amped thru two 2 ch tube amps?

Tubes? Yeck. I dont use tubes for the same reason I dont use wagon wheels. Radials are so much better. But if you wanted to spend $4000 on a tube amp then they would sound warmer......because tubes dont have a flat frequency response. They roll off at the top end. So you could spend $4000 on a tube amp or you could spend $200 on a solid state amp, tune the high end down and have the same sound.


2. What % of listening time to your car rigs is devoted to tweaking and % devoted to pure listening and enjoying the sound?

In the height of competition season and especially a couple months out from finals I easily spend 10-12 hours a week sitting in my car tuning.

[arun1963]

The more I mess with this, the more I think its a simple phasing issue as its smearing only to the right side. When I play with time alignment I can get things to focus up pretty good but the center image is over the steering wheel instead of the middle of the dash. So Im coming to the conclusion that the fix for this could be in speaker placement by getting them both on axis to the listener.

I have sacrificed a bit of stage width and tiny amt on focus to get the centre image in the middle of the windscreen. I looked at the image centre as the outline of a man. I needed to move this outline to the left ie from over the wheel to the centre of the windshield. So I divided the outline into sections and then moved each section to the left. For each frequency that I can tune, I first recorded an equal level from my tuning cd and then boosted most on the left a bit. That moved the image to the left. We have right hand drive here.


So now I have the centre image dead centre on the windshield but I traded a bit of focus and width. Currently I'm tuning to increase the width and chisel down the xover freq 50-80hz. Mids are crossed at 6hz. Prob would not work from a competitive standpoint, but for a general listener like me its working..........so far :-)

[arun1963]

Last post was not about trying to tell you something you didnt know (may be dumb but am not stupid ;) ).....would really appreciate if you could validate the below:

I think the reason the above works for me is that I sit on the right side. Hence the frequencies that are brighter on the left are now less so because of greater distance. Simmilarly the frequencies that are brighter on the right are now much brighter becoz I'm nearer. The right side mid is at 32" and the left at 46". Could this be the reason? I don't have a meter to check, but using the tuning cd also gives more or less the same result. If this is correct then playing the tuning cd and measuring left and right side should give different results sitting in the left seat vs right seat. Is this true?

200-400 which is supposed to be much brighter on the left works this way for me:

200: -5 L / -4 R.
315: -2 L / -2 R

2khz : -2 L / -5 R

3.15khz : -5 L / -3 or -4 R

8, 12.5 and 20khz are just as you mention. 8 brighter on the right, 12.5 on the left and 20 brighter on the right.

This focuses the sound at the centre of the windshield, with the female vocalist just to the left of the male vocalist. The music starts and fades out from the centre of the sound image.

Good luck with the competition season.

[MacLeod]

Nothing to validate bro. First off, each car, speaker system and amp power is going to be different so I what is whacked in my car may be perfectly fine in yours.

Second, its yo' world my brother. If you like the center image slapped all the way to the passenger side, thats fine and dandy. Youre the one paying for it and youre the one listening to it so as long as youre not worried about impressing a SQ judge, your opinion is all that matters. ;)

[arun1963]

Its not that I prefer the sound image
slapped all the way to the passenger side

Based on my understanding from the various threads, (an oxymoron for sure ;) ), the image centre needs to be centre of windshield (center of the windshield width) at eye level. That point, is to my left as I sit.

If on the other hand centre of windshield means half way up the windscreen but directly in front of me, then obviously what I'm doing is technically wrong

Want to know what is technically correct from an SQ standpoint.

Cant help being a PITA noob. :)

[MacLeod]

First off, there is no set point for where the center should be. Not like at your mirror or whatever. The center image should be in the center of your sound stage. so if your stage goes from just inside the left a pillar to outside the right a pillar then the center should be to the right of the rear view mirror.

The stage height should be just above eye level You should feel like youre slightly looking up at it. All of the stage should be at least above the dash. Lower frequency stuff should not drop down to the doors at all.

Depth should be as deep as possible but youre not going to get it beyond the windhsield really without moving the speakers out there.

Width should be outside the a pillars in a perfect world. You will likely be able to achieve this on the drivers side with some frequencies but not all and itll be a lot harder to do on the passenger side.

[arun1963]

Took me about 8hrs over two days, to finally get close to what you described. My sound stage at this point is like a large air cushion of sound that floats over the dash and goes to the top of the windshield. What I love about it, is the palpable depth. It feels 3d. It stretches from about 10" inside the right a pillar to about the left a pillar (right hand drive). This needs tweaking.

To get here, I had to first understand what you were saying, then follow the tuning basics that you mention here and as well as the general trends from your competition sheets that you posted on the sq thread.

The challenge I'm struggling with now, is to focus up the different elements on the stage. The bass, the percussions, the vocals are better off than the instruments, but they could also use some sharpening. Accoustic guitars are a big problem. The pluck is fine but middle and top drift sharply to the right side. Some other instruments also do this. Dirthog had sent me a sheet that gives key frequencies for various instruments, I finally understand its relevance and am going to use it.

The eq settings I have now are as under.

20hz : 0 L&R
31.5 : -1 L&R
50hz : -3 L&R
80hz : -5 L / -4 R mid xover is at 63 but I cant control 63 from hu.
125hz : -4 L / -3 R
200hz : -6 L / -5 R
315hz : -3 L / -1 R
500hz : -3 L / -4 R candaddy was right that the momo mids have a spike here
800hz : -1 L&R
1.25khz : -3 L & R. I havent figured this one out fully.
2khz : -5 L / -4 R
3.15khz : -4 L / -3 R
5khz: -3 L / -3 R
8khz : -3 L / -5 R
12.5khz : -5 L / -4 R
20khz : 0 L / -1 R

Thanks bro. :) ;)

[MacLeod]

Go to Radio Shack and buy one of their SPL meters. Its about $50 and worth every penny if youre wanting to get the best out of your system. Walmart has one for a little over $20 but its not as good.

Next get some filtered pink noise test tones at 1/3 octave. Dont use test tones use filtered pink noise. Test tones are ok up to about 800 Hz then they start bouncing around everywhere and not only will be hard to tune but will also make you see stars. The Autosound 2000 disc #3 (http://www.crutchfield.com/p_503CD103/Autosound-2000-Disc-Three.html?search=autosound+2000&tp=556&tab=detailed_info) has this.

Now play the tracks and fade left to right reading the output on the SPL meter. Adjust til theyre even. Let your ears be the final judge. If the SPL meter sayd 1000 Hz is hotter on the left side but you obviously hear it hotter on the right, believe your ears.

[MacLeod]

Also, dont be afraid to play with different crossover settings. Xover settings can be more important than EQ settings. Ive sat in my car for HOURS tuning trying to make something work with no luck then mess around with some different x-over points and BOOM! Things fall into place.

The last couple nights Ive been playing around with staggered x-over points. I tried it a while back setting the mid at 2 KHz and the tweet at 4 KHz and some other variations but couldnt get it to work so I gave up. But since I havent been to a competition since finals in November Ive had plenty of time to play around and decided to give it another whack.

I figure that since the passive crossover that comes with speakers uses different x-over points for the mid and tweet, why shouldnt I? Besides, there was always a "brassy" sound in female voices I could never quite get out. So up til now Ive been having pretty good luck with the mids at 3.2 KHZ @ 18 db/oct and the tweeters at 5 KHZ @ 18 db/oct. The "brassiness" is gone and there is a lot more warmth to the female vocals. I still havent got the male vocal just right yet but Im still working on it.

Im planning on hitting my first show of the year next Sunday (4/8) and Im 99% sure Im going to take this new approach to the show and get it in front of some judges and see how it goes.

[arun1963]

Go to Radio Shack and buy one of their SPL meters

No RS here yet. Govt yet to open this sector to foreign players. Stand alone brands can operate here but chainstores have to be domestic. So while we have a gap and a benetton no Macys, JCP or RS.

Checked with a couple of companies that sell this stuff to companies for noise level compliance. One quoted $ 2,600 and the other was at 3K. One guy asked what I wanted the spl meter for and when I explained he burst out laughing. :o Will have to figure out another way to get the meter and disc. Till then its about sticking to the basics and tuning around the basics.


Also, dont be afraid to play with different crossover settings

Gold. While my set up does not allow me to seperate the mids and tweets (Stock momo passive xover, pa amp and hu) I seperated the sub and mids a bit. Sub now LPF at 50 and mids at 63. WOW the blending is so much better and the bass is so much cleaner. Have kept 50hz slightly higher than 80, as raising 80 gives the mid location. I wish I could do the same for the mids and tweets. It would clear up the 3-5 range. Going active is another project. Have been listening to it like this for the past couple of days. :)

The thing about 'stage' is its beauty and fragility. There is only so much bass that it can handle, before it comes crashing down to my knees. (The mids are at knee level stock location). It seems to me that to really enjoy the stage your sub bass has to be really good and tight and I think this is going to be my next project.

My sub setup is a momo 12" svc, in a ported 1.3 cuft box amped to pa 400.1. The sub is rated at 300rms and the amp is 200rms. I assume that the ported needs to change to sealed, first, before looking at the power aspect. True?

Another linked issue could be that both amps (pa500.4 and 400.1) aren't getting enough volts. The battery is connected to a 1 farad cap. The cap shows 13.4-13.6 when the engine is running and 12.8v when the engine is off. I raise this point cause with most frequencies heavily attenuated, my normal listening volume has gone up to 48-50 on max of 62. Even this, at times is not enough. Hence I'm either going deaf :eek: or the amps arent getting enough juice. True?

I am 'tweaking' much less now, but still enough that I have to re-set the stage frequently. This typically happens becoz I overload the 50-315hz range, while tweaking :rolleyes:

To re-set the stage, I cut the sub and attenuate the mid bass, fade to hearing the mids only and set the TA. I then tune the mids, next I add the sub and do the blending. This causes the stage to fall a bit and I go back and set the TA (add delay to the mids) once the stage height is set, I add the tweets, TA tweets and then tune tweets from the eq. I also fade forwards so that I'm hearing much more of the tweets and then do the final touch up on the 3khz+ frequencies. Is this process correct?


Besides, there was always a "brassy" sound in female voices

Is this like a breathy sound on the female vocals?


Im planning on hitting my first show of the year next Sunday (4/8)

Here's hoping and wishing that this is your year. Do you approach the initial rounds as testing ground for 2-3 new ideas that you have, in order to shortlist and tweak the one you carry to finals?

[MacLeod]

Yeah, I dont worry about individual shows much anymore - I look at it as an entire season. Im working toward a few key events. Hi-Fi Buys Nationals in July, Elite Summer Nationals in August, TN and AL State Finals in September then World Finals in October. The local shows in between are simply practice runs.

The "brassy" sound is in the upper midrange most noticeable in the female voice. The Rebecca Pigeon and Sarah Kay tracks on the Chesky disck (the MECA SQ disc) are the ones this is most prominent on.

[arun1963]

Im planning on hitting my first show of the year next Sunday (4/8) and Im 99% sure Im going to take this new approach to the show and get it in front of some judges and see how it goes.

Good luck with the show. Would be interested to know the judges response to seperating the mids and tweets, if you do present that.

[donkeypunch22]

Hey MacLeod,
Do you know what the impedance is of the tweeter and the 6.5 mid individually (I'm speaking of the SR series of course - but if you happen to know the MM6501 impedance numbers I'd like to know that, too)? I'm going active and want to know the load the amps are going to see. Thanks!

[MacLeod]

I dont know the exact loads per driver but if youre going to be bi-amping it wont matter. Theyre not below 4 ohms for sure.

[donkeypunch22]

Thanks for your response.

[cliff257]

Can you guys tell me what you are using as far as x-overs and eq's for an active setup.

[MacLeod]

Alpine H700

[cliff257]

With the h700 you are capable of tuning a low pass and high pass crossover for the midrange? What others have these capabilities or is that common?
Thanks

[MacLeod]

Thats pretty common in higher end gear. The Alpine 9887 has an excellent 3 way crossover as well as time alignment and a 5 band parametric EQ.

The upper end Eclipse and Pioneer head units have these features as well.

The only thing they dont have that high end processors have is a 6 channel, 31 band EQ.

[cliff257]

I would be pming you macleod but not enough posts.This is your thread so i am going to continue to ask.

I plan on purchasing the new top end pioneer head unit and i believe it has all the crossover points and a 16 band eq. Do you know anything about this unit? Will it do everything i need it to do to run these speakers active?

I dont compete, I would just like to have the system tuned properly with the knowledge I have gained recently. Do i really need an eq with 31 bands vs 16?

Thanks for the help!!

[cliff257]

In the line of processors the h700 and h701 are not available any more. Is there anything new that you would purchase besides the bit one(assuming you would purchase this unit)?

[Toxis]

Rockford 360.2 v2... love it... Great flexibility and sounds great.

[cadenceclipse]

audiocontrol

[MacLeod]

If youre not competing, a 16 band eq will be plenty for you to play with and you should be able to dial in some pretty good sound quality.

[cliff257]

Macleod I am from South Carolina. The only local shop in my area is Elite Audio. I talked to one of the guys there and he competes and says he knows you. He says you sound comp guys are a close knit group and once you get in this group you find all kinds of things from help to hardware.

Wondering if you guys can find me a h701. I was told they're out there I just need to talk to the right people.

Also what are you guys using to control these processors? Presently I am using a dva-9861 for one vehicle and just got the deh-p800 for another. I want the h701 for the alpine headunit. Does anyone know if the headunit will control all the functions on the h701?

Again thanks for help
Cliff

[MacLeod]

Big guy with a 2 foot long bear? That would be Matt Roberts. He is one of the best SQ competitors in the world! Took best of show at finals last year. His truck is awesome!

I also use the 9861 and while its a great head unit for competition with its optical out, it wont control the 700 or 701. The best way is to get the remote controller for them. Makes it 10 times easier to tune.

[cliff257]

I didnt mention his name because wasnt sure about you guys relationship. But yes ole matt schooled me today!!! Talked with him for about 3 hours. Told me to go to the show this weekend and meet as many people as I can to get advise and see the setups. I mean he got 10 grand in two pieces of equipment!!!

What are you guys using for power. I told matt i was using jl he laughed at me. Hurt my feelings:( So it sounds like time to upgrade power and was leaning toward audison. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[MacLeod]

LOL! He is the man! His truck is one of maybe 5 systems in the WORLD that has reached that most coveted point to where it sounds closer to a home audio system than a car audio system. Listen when he talks. ;)

Im of a different mind set on amps than Matt I reckon. To me, a watt is a watt. A JL Audio watt will sound just like a Zapco watt. So long as the amps are well built, free of noise and make the power you need cleanly (which JL's do) thats all that matters.

I ran Crossfire amps my fist 2 years of competition and Im running the Polk PA amps now and have been getting good results.

Now there is nothing wrong with going with an Audison, Zapco or Genesis setup if you can afford it but if you cant, you can get just as far with a JL setup.

[cliff257]

Yes thanks for the advise on the amps. I figured there was power and there was clean power and the jl's are about the bottom of the clean power chart.

Oh i listened to him like i listen to you guys!! What PA amps are you running for the front stage? I believe I will always have the jl sub with the jl amp I think its as good as I want. But thinking about upgrading for the door speakers. No to bring down the pa amps down but i believe i wont be moving up to much if i get those vs jl. With that is the audison, zapco and genesis what you would recommend?

Macleod will you be a this show in SC tomorrow? I believe I am gonna go from car to car asking 50 questions!!

[MacLeod]

No. Ive been to the last 2 Elite Summer Nationals and had a blast but me and the wife just had a kid a few weeks ago so money and time are a little tight right now. It sucks too cause I love this show!

Look for Kirk Proffitt and ask to listen to his Acura. Its another one thats closer to a home system than car system.

Im running the PA500.4 bi-amped to my SR6500's up front then running the PA1200.1 to a single SR124DVC.

[arun1963]

me and the wife just had a kid a few weeks ago

Congrats Mac!! My little girl who read the post with me is asking me if its a baby boy or a baby girl.

[MacLeod]

Baby boy! Which if fine with me cause it means in 5 years or so, I wont have to do yard work anymore! :D

[arun1963]

Nah!! U'll be a tough on the outside and a softie inside, kinda dad. The best kind. :)

[Greg Peters]

Wondering if you guys can find me a h701. I was told they're out there I just need to talk to the right people.

Also what are you guys using to control these processors? Presently I am using a dva-9861 for one vehicle and just got the deh-p800 for another. I want the h701 for the alpine headunit. Does anyone know if the headunit will control all the functions on the h701?

Again thanks for help
Cliff

If you want a new one, they're officially discontinued but there may still be select Alpine distributors with one sitting on the shelf. They show up NIB and used on eBay from time to time, and there were a few examples here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/

The RUX-c701 controller is what you'll need to run it from the dash, unless you happen have select Alpine double-DIN head units or one of a few more rare single DIN DVD units...they might even be worth tracking down if you want to run your signal via optical to the H701 processor.

[pushkanak]

This thread has been most helpful for me, considering that I'm about to install the SR6500 into a Jeep Liberty, and the Venezuelan car audio installers are very pathetic.. they only know how to throw in some kicker subs and some low end 5-way speakers without regards to how and where they install it. There are no SQ car audio shows whatsoever either. So I'm really needing a lot of help regarding quality SQ installation of this set of comps:

1) I'm still not sure what is on-axis tweeter placement. I understood from this thread that it means to place the tweeters on the A-Pillars facing to the center of the car. But where exactly is such center? See, I uploaded a picture (see attached) of the vehicle's interior, to help you help me find an on-axis placement. In the picture, I found two locations, labeled as 1 and 2. In 1, it would be on the car tweeters' stock location, firing towards the windshield, while in 2 it would be in a pod on the A-Pillars, firing to [**please indicate here where exactly should it point to**]. However, this location would not be above the dash level since there is an obstruction in the A-Pillars (signaled by the red arrow), unless I install it above such obstruction, but I think it would be too high then. Please help me find a good on-axis install for the tweeters in the picture, defining also where should the tweeters face.

2) Should the mids be on-axis too? I ask since it was mentioned in this thread that the mids should be on-axis. I'm thinking on installing them in the Jeep's front door 6.5'' stock location, but it is under knee level, and it would not be firing towards the driver's seat, but to my lower legs.

3) It was also mentioned that the drivers should not be enclosed, since they work better on free air. But how can I do this? I'm thinking that if I install the tweeters in some pods on the A-Pillars, it would then be enclosed. How could they be on free air?

4) My head unit will be the Pioneer PRS800, having TA capabilities, as well as xovers and 32 band equalizer for the right and left sides separately (right?). It was mentioned that if someone has TA, then out of phase setup for tweeters would not be necessary. But it was also mentioned that if the tweeters are installed distantly from the mids, then out of phase is necessary. So I don't know if I should do this. If I should, then please link me to some web that explains this since I can't find any info about this.

5) According to post #65, McLeod has (or had) this crossover setup:

Tweeter:
highpass= 4KHz@24db(most common) to 5KHz@12db
attenuation= -4 to -8db
phase= 0 to 180 degrees pending driver separation and use of time alignment

Midrange:
lowpass= 4KHz@24bd(most common) to 5KHz@24db
highpass= 40Hz to 63Hz (pending volume tastes) @24db
attenuation= 0
phase= 0

Now, would that be active of passive crossover? The amp I will use to power the SR6500 is the pa500.4, and I don't know whether if I should achieve that crossover setup with the amp's crossovers, the SR6500's crossover, or with the head unit crossover. Or should that be done with them altogether? (I don't think I will try to do the tweeter highpass at 5khz since it was said that it's harder)

6) You also suggested this crossover setup so as to achieve more octaves from a single driver:

Crossover:
Tweeter:
highpass= 6.3KHz@12db
attenuation= -8db
phase= 0

Midrange:
lowpass= 6.3KHz@12db
highpass= 40Hz@24db
attenuation= 0
phase= 0

TA settings:
Left Tweeter -6 Right Tweeter -7
Left mid -4.65 Right Mid -3.50
Sub -0

Would that sound better than the crossover setup described in the previous point? Is it as easy to achieve this one as it was with the previous one?

I'm sorry if this post was long, but its longitude is a mere reflection of the amount of knowledge I still got to learn about this topic.

[MacLeod]

1) I'm still not sure what is on-axis tweeter placement. I understood from this thread that it means to place the tweeters on the A-Pillars facing to the center of the car. But where exactly is such center? See, I uploaded a picture (see attached) of the vehicle's interior, to help you help me find an on-axis placement. In the picture, I found two locations, labeled as 1 and 2. In 1, it would be on the car tweeters' stock location, firing towards the windshield, while in 2 it would be in a pod on the A-Pillars, firing to [**please indicate here where exactly should it point to**]. However, this location would not be above the dash level since there is an obstruction in the A-Pillars (signaled by the red arrow), unless I install it above such obstruction, but I think it would be too high then. Please help me find a good on-axis install for the tweeters in the picture, defining also where should the tweeters face.

On axis means facing you. Say if youre sitting in the driver seat looking at the windshield and the tweeters is in the A pillar pointing at the opposite A pillar then its 90 degress off axis.

I wouldnt use #1 as theyre too far inside. #2 would be the better spot esepcially if you could aim them towards the opposite side head rest.


2) Should the mids be on-axis too? I ask since it was mentioned in this thread that the mids should be on-axis. I'm thinking on installing them in the Jeep's front door 6.5'' stock location, but it is under knee level, and it would not be firing towards the driver's seat, but to my lower legs.

If possible, it is best to have the mids firing in as much as possible however the more you turn them towards you, the more narrow your stage becomes. If you can angle them in some that would be best. If not, dont sweat it as the SR mids have outstanding off axis performance.


3) It was also mentioned that the drivers should not be enclosed, since they work better on free air. But how can I do this? I'm thinking that if I install the tweeters in some pods on the A-Pillars, it would then be enclosed. How could they be on free air?

The tweeters are already enclosed. Its the mids that you want to keep free air.


4) My head unit will be the Pioneer PRS800, having TA capabilities, as well as xovers and 32 band equalizer for the right and left sides separately (right?). It was mentioned that if someone has TA, then out of phase setup for tweeters would not be necessary. But it was also mentioned that if the tweeters are installed distantly from the mids, then out of phase is necessary. So I don't know if I should do this. If I should, then please link me to some web that explains this since I can't find any info about this.

Play with them and see what sounds best. Try tuning the time alignment first and then play with them out of phase and see if they sound better.


5) According to post #65, McLeod has (or had) this crossover setup:

Tweeter:
highpass= 4KHz@24db(most common) to 5KHz@12db
attenuation= -4 to -8db
phase= 0 to 180 degrees pending driver separation and use of time alignment

Midrange:
lowpass= 4KHz@24bd(most common) to 5KHz@24db
highpass= 40Hz to 63Hz (pending volume tastes) @24db
attenuation= 0
phase= 0

Now, would that be active of passive crossover? The amp I will use to power the SR6500 is the pa500.4, and I don't know whether if I should achieve that crossover setup with the amp's crossovers, the SR6500's crossover, or with the head unit crossover. Or should that be done with them altogether? (I don't think I will try to do the tweeter highpass at 5khz since it was said that it's harder)

That is with an Alpine H700 processor. Neither the SR passive crossovers or the PA amp has the crossover to get those numbers.


6) You also suggested this crossover setup so as to achieve more octaves from a single driver:

Crossover:
Tweeter:
highpass= 6.3KHz@12db
attenuation= -8db
phase= 0

Midrange:
lowpass= 6.3KHz@12db
highpass= 40Hz@24db
attenuation= 0
phase= 0

TA settings:
Left Tweeter -6 Right Tweeter -7
Left mid -4.65 Right Mid -3.50
Sub -0

Would that sound better than the crossover setup described in the previous point? Is it as easy to achieve this one as it was with the previous one?

6.3 is really too high for the SR6500 mid. It will play that high even off axis (the more off axis you get, the less intense higher frequencies become) but rolls off sharply after that point so it wont blend well at all with the tweeters. 4 KHz is the sweet spot to start with. Not saying its the ultimate crossover point, but its the best one to begin your tuning with.

[pushkanak]

Thanks a lot MacLeod, for your valuable insights. Now:



The tweeters are already enclosed. Its the mids that you want to keep free air.

And how exactly can I keep the mids on free air? If I install them on the 6.5'' stock location from the car's front doors, would the be enclosed or free air? If enclosed is the case, then how can I go free air?



That is with an Alpine H700 processor. Neither the SR passive crossovers or the PA amp has the crossover to get those numbers.

And does the Pioneer 800PRS has the capacity to get those numbers, as the Alpine H700 does?

[MacLeod]

And how exactly can I keep the mids on free air? If I install them on the 6.5'' stock location from the car's front doors, would the be enclosed or free air? If enclosed is the case, then how can I go free air?

The inside of a door is free air.


And does the Pioneer 800PRS has the capacity to get those numbers, as the Alpine H700 does?

Honestly Im not familiar with that CD player so I cant say for sure.

[arun1963]

4) My head unit will be the Pioneer PRS800, having TA capabilities, as well as xovers and 32 band equalizer for the right and left sides separately (right?). It was mentioned that if someone has TA, then out of phase setup for tweeters would not be necessary. But it was also mentioned that if the tweeters are installed distantly from the mids, then out of phase is necessary. So I don't know if I should do this. If I should, then please link me to some web that explains this since I can't find any info about this.



And does the Pioneer 800PRS has the capacity to get those numbers, as the Alpine H700 does?

I run the p-880. I like the hu, because in a 1din unit I get both a decent hu and a mini processor. The 800 has the same features but has an all copper chassis, I believe. Normally, to get this kind of tuning features, one would have to buy a hu and a seperate processor. HU + good processor would always give better sound. A 30 band eq gives you an additional 10-15frequencies that you can tune. The other difference is in the way these frequencies are adjusted. On the 800/880, you can tune each frequency for +/- 6. Each step (+/-1) is a 2db (in terms of loudness) adjustment. So +/-6 gives you +/- 12db adjustment. On a processor the +/- 6 steps could be 12. Hence each step would correct for +/- 1db thereby giveving better accuracy. So you control more frequencies and you control each frequency more accurately. Ofcourse this option would be more expensive.

The 800/880 gives independent l/r control over 16 frequencies. 32 frequencies is marketing jargon (16x2).

I reverse the tweeter phase to raise my stage height. I lose a bit of coherence and sweetness in the highs when I do this. I am forced to do this as my tweets are mounted in the sail panels, firing at each other with tons of dash features that act as obstructions and reflection points. Don't get too fussed with distances and numbers for reversing the tweet phase.

It's relevant to know that the higher frequencies are more linear / directional and these frequencies set your stage height. That is why its recomended to mount the tweets on the a pillars so that they are 4-5" higher than the highest obstruction point. You would set them in xfiring mode (near side tweet aimed at passenger headrest and vice versa), like Mac mentioned. When the tweets are mounted higher, it will pull the entire sound stage higher. Thats the way your brain processes sound.

I use Mac's numbers as a guideline rather than for absolute value. Mac's numbers are based on his cars interiors, the location and way his drivers are mounted, his equipment etc. So e.g. if in Mac's car, 315hz is louder on the left side by 6db, it would be louder on the left in your car and my car as well. But maybe in your car its hotter by 5db and in mine by 4db. The same would apply to all tuning features like TA, xover points etc. I'm just trying to illustrate a point. At the end of the day you will have to tune your setup based on your install/cars accoustics.

With the pio HU yes you can set the mid/high xover at 6.3khz if you so wish. Again, like mac said this may be too high. Normal passive xovers split the signal at between 2-3khz. By crossing higher, the sound is cleaner and has a bit more 'airy' feel to it, however if you set this too high you would hit the physical limitation of your driver.

[pushkanak]

Thanks arun1963! Let me see if I understood you well. If the 800PRS can give me a max of +/- 12db, then does that mean that I can't achieve the tweeter highpass MacLeod recommends of 4KHz@24db? Because that's 24db of adjustment.. If I can't get to 24db, can I at least get to the 4khz signal split with this head unit?

The same goes with the midrange area. I see I would not be able to achieve the lowpass of 4KHz@24db, I'm thinking the closest I could do with the 800PRS is 4KHz@12db, is this correct? Would this make much difference?

Thanks for comparing sail panel mount vs. a-pillar mount, I was about to ask this too. So A-Pillar seems to be the best location for me! at xfiring mode like was explained.

Lastly, If I do the mid/high xover at 6.3khz, I'm guessing that since the mids would be managing more higher frequencies here, then the off-axis install that I will do would with the mids would interfere with the sound quality. I'm thinking I would better do the xover at 4khz so the tweeters would do the rest, and since they would be in-axis, those higher frequencies would sound better than if managed by the off-axis mids. Is this logic correct?

[dirthog]

Thanks arun1963! Let me see if I understood you well. If the 800PRS can give me a max of +/- 12db, then does that mean that I can't achieve the tweeter highpass MacLeod recommends of 4KHz@24db? Because that's 24db of adjustment.. If I can't get to 24db, can I at least get to the 4khz signal split with this head unit?

You can highpass the tweeter at 4khz/24 slope.

The same goes with the midrange area. I see I would not be able to achieve the lowpass of 4KHz@24db, I'm thinking the closest I could do with the 800PRS is 4KHz@12db, is this correct? Would this make much difference?

You can lowpass the mid at 4khz/24 slope.

Thanks for comparing sail panel mount vs. a-pillar mount, I was about to ask this too. So A-Pillar seems to be the best location for me! at xfiring mode like was explained.

Lastly, If I do the mid/high xover at 6.3khz, I'm guessing that since the mids would be managing more higher frequencies here, then the off-axis install that I will do would with the mids would interfere with the sound quality. I'm thinking I would better do the xover at 4khz so the tweeters would do the rest, and since they would be in-axis, those higher frequencies would sound better than if managed by the off-axis mids. Is this logic correct?

For the most part you are correct, but like every car install you have to experiment with different install options to see what yields the best results.


I hope this helps

[pushkanak]

Yes it helped, it's good to know that with the 800PRS head unit I can highpass and lowpass at the 24db adjustment. So, since I would tune my system with all those crossover settings suggested by MacLeod, I should only be using the crossovers from the headunits in an active way, right?

In other words, the crossovers that come with the Sr6500 and the pa500.4 amp would be without use right? (sorry if this was too newbie, this is too new for me)

[arun1963]

...I had a feeling that my earlier post would over load you. I should have taken smaller steps.

1. When I mentioned +/- 12db I was talking about the equaliser. This is where a single frequency can be adjusted for +/- 12db. With the hu you can adjust 16 frequencies.

2. Mac's comment of 24db at xover point, means a slope of 24db/octave. The audible range of 20-20khz is roughly divided into 10 octaves. From any frequency say 200hz, 1 octave up is double i.e. 400hz and one octave down is half of 200 i.e. 100hz. Hence, If you select 4khz as your xover point for the mid and select a slope of 24db/octave, your mid will play 8khz, 24db lower than 4khz. If on the other hand you selected 4khz at a 6db slope, 8khz would play 6db's lower than 4 on your mid. So a range of frequencies between 4-8khz is getting attenuated. The higher the slope# the steeper is the slope.

1 & 2 are two different things. Your hu has seperate controls for both. For the xover slopes, your hu will allow you to select from 6db-36db/oct for the sub and 6db-24db for your mids and tweets.

One last thing. Sound is processed on the right side of the brain. This half processes backwards i.e. from the 'whole' downwards to the smallest bit. It does this intuitively. Numbers are a left brain strength. The left brain processes from the small bit up to try and complete the whole. The bits are built up based on logic, pattern, etc.

Numbers are important to start with, while you're building, bit upwards. Btw, It's also important to know which number are relevent. If your try and surf to learn more, you will come across tons of information and numbers. Very few are really relevent. So, numbers will take you to a certain point, thereafter you will have to transfer the listening / tuning process to the right side, to take you the least few miles. The right side does'nt need the numbers.

The only numbers you should always remember are those that define your equipments limits and to stay well within that range.

[pushkanak]

Good explanation regarding the functioning of both brain hemispheres. I will certainly commence my setup with the numbers recommended from MacLeod, and from there I would tune with my right brain side as my commander, since as was said, every car has different acoustics.

Considering that the PRS800 has enough capabilities for achieving MacLeod's recommendations and further tuning with my ears, does this mean that the SR6500's and pa500.4's crossovers would be left without use? Or do they provide functions other than achieving those crossover numbers? (for instance, maybe if I also connect the tweeters to the SR6500's crossovers it would avoid them damaging because of high gains or something? But I don't know if I can connect to HU's crossovers and SR6500's crossovers at the same time?)

[TakeTheTime]

If youre going to separate the tweeter from the mid, wire them out of phase. In both my truck and my car, they blended in and the image pulled up higher a ton with them out of phase. Having them wired in phase with each other also caused some cancellation at the crossover point

Hey Mac, nice tuning advices! A question about this,
to "wire out of phase" means switch the tweeters + and - ?
Should I do this? I think they sound pretty darn good with correct though...

[MacLeod]

Yes, wiring the tweeters out of phase would mean switching the + and -. Its worth trying. You may not notice a difference but you wont know til you try.

[TakeTheTime]

I did it today, and yes, I THINK I can hear a difference. It's slightly better! ;)
Now I've got my Alpine 9855r, so I'm gonna follow the 1st post to tune the SR's.
Or should I wait 'til the speakers are fully broken in. They've gotten around 50 hours...

[TakeTheTime]

I would go steeper than 12 db on the mids. At that shallow a slope, 40 Hz is only cut by 4 db.

Hey, I respond to this one here to avoid more OT in the other thread. What about 18db/octave? :)

[TakeTheTime]

About the tuning, you say I should wire them out of phase? I did it today, and it works very well!
But I have to ask: What do you mean when you say that it helps them "blend" better?
(Btw I'm from Norwegian and don't speak Norway very well ;):D)

[MacLeod]

Blending means both drivers working together so you don't hear stuff coming from 2 different locations. Ideally you'll hear everything coming from the tweeters general area instead of some stuff up high and some stuff down low.

[TakeTheTime]

Blending means both drivers working together so you don't hear stuff coming from 2 different locations. Ideally you'll hear everything coming from the tweeters general area instead of some stuff up high and some stuff down low.

I see. ;) Yeah, I've reconnected to active crossover now by the way. Oh, should the tweeters be out of phase only with the passive!?

Gonna meet some car-audio people tomorrow and get some help with tuning and setting TA from my new headunit. It's gonna be great! :D I've tried a couple of different crossover's with the SR5250"-woofers and 1"-tweeters, the one's I remember trying was at 4khz with 24db/octave (both) and 5khz with 12db/octave (both) - I definately like the 5khz-cross the most! I'll try 6.3khz later on I think.

And HPF on the midbass is set to 50hz with 24db/octave - you've said this is the absolute lowest, right? I tried 40hz too but I didn't hear any different. As for the sub, it's set to 40hz with 24db's steep slope (I'm an SQ-guy and I definately like this the most in order to get everything upfront, I could even go with 31.5hz if my midbass could go lower! :D). And speaking of which, in my ears, the bass and midbass sounds great now... :)

[DSkip]

Phase is more of a location issue and not a crossover issue. Passive or active, whatever sounds best at that location and angle is what you should go with.

My tweets are at 3.15k right now, and thats pretty close to the passive point IIRC. I would recommend lowering the power they get a little bit and trying it at this point as it really helps pull the stage up more.

[MacLeod]

The passive SR crossover actually cuts the tweeters off pretty high, something like 6K but within 18 db slope.

[arun1963]

That is high!!! Like Skip, even I thought it was around 3khz. It puts paid to my idea of running the momo's, with the sr xovers, in the yet to be bought car. No I'm not replacing the Ford :). Wifes car needs a change.

For some reason I could never make reversed phases work. Every time I tried it, I came back to normal phase. For the benefit it gives, I could never tune back the balance and tonality. But yes, reversing one tweet lifts the stage and doing it to the sub pushes the the stage further away from you and gives the perception of greater depth.

Your tweets and the frequencies they play, are lifting about 80% of your stage height. So for a start, the tweets need to be at dash level or higher. If you're running the sr's, the tweets need to be more on axis than normal. Since its the tweets doing the lifting, there is a limit to the mass they can lift. Hence there is a cap on how heavy you make the sound. Read sub bass and lower mid bass. If you break up sound into five ranges, sub, mid bass, midrange, upper mids and highs, each range needs to be connected securely to to the ones before and after it. Level matching and balance.

Think of a chain that has five links of equal length. The link at one end is thick and heavy and the mass of the links reduce as you move to the other end. The last link being delicate and light. You have to lift the chain from the delicate end without snapping it.

So its good to start with the first couple of links a little lighter and once you have it lifted, then add proportionately to the mass of each chain. Stopping short of the breaking point.

Running a 50hz low end at a 36db slope is one way of filling in the lower end. A crossover of 50hz actually pushes up the stage from 40hz. If you dont have the slopes its not going to work. Increasing the delay between your sub and mids also pushes the sub presentation higher. So you get the pull from the tweet and a bit of a push from the sub. This works well too.

Somewhat subjective post, but this is how I see it.

[TakeTheTime]

Ey, thanks for great replies (especially yours Arun).
Today I did some tuning, got some help to do the TA too.
We tried different crossovers, and also used the Parametric EQ. :)

After this, I got HUGE improvement in my car. Competed in EMMA (European Mobile Media Association) today.
My first time ever, and was in a class called "Experienced". I achieved second place with install 79 and sound 208 points. :D
The guy who won got 211 points in the sound-part, but he had much better 'install' than me (90 points...)

The sound of the SR's were;

23/30 points for the midbass,
26/30 points for midrange
22/30 points for tweeters.

Also, the "width" was good the judge said, it was a little 'outside' of the car,
high were pretty good too (could be higher, he said up to his shoulders),
but the 'focus' or 'position' of the stage were a little too close...

This was before a guy (he was also a judge in EMMA) helped me with more tuning.
He set the TA correctly for me, and we agreed that there was some better crossovers.
Sub/low were set to 50hz (24db/o), midbass set down to 40hz (18db/o), mids high up to
3.1khz (24db/o) and the highs set down to 3.1khz with 12 db's pr octave. I know it's a little
low for the SR's, but this worked great - got better 'punchy' bass and greater midbass response.
And also a little low for the tweeters maybe? But this gave higher stage and more stuff were pulled up high...

As for the EQ's, we did some adjusting with this too,
but I don't remember excactly now. Can check later... ;)

[arun1963]

but the 'focus' or 'position' of the stage were a little too close...

Pinch down a bit at 5khz.

[QUOTE=TakeTheTime;1326753] highs set down to 3.1khz with 12 db's pr octave.... But this gave higher stage and more stuff were pulled up high...[QUOTE]

Bring the tweets more on axis and cross higher around 4-5khz. Height cues are 2khz and upwards and you don't want the tweets playing much lower than this. You should hear 2-4khz from both the tweets and the mids and 5khz and above from the tweets.

Your upper mids are the transition from your mid to tweet. At 5khz on a 12db slope, 1.25khz is 24db lower. At 3.15 khz, 24db lower is at 750hz. That's low for the ring radiator. While the ring radiators have great extension in the higher frequencies and play 5-30khz ruler flat, they struggle more than normal soft domes below 2khz.

That said, boosting a bit at 800hz will give you the perception of a slightly higher stage. Thats because 800 will impact 1.5 & 2khz and that is what is bumping up the stage height. ;)

[TakeTheTime]

Thanks for the reply. But do you think 3.1khz with 12db/octave is too low for the tweeters,
like it will struggle with it when I crank the volume? I think it sounds great, and the guy that
did it said it was no problem at all to cross that 'low'. But I'll try those frequencies you talked about...

[TakeTheTime]

Remember how I've mounted these babies.
I know the woofers are great off-axis, but...

http://i918.photobucket.com/albums/ad28/Simen777/Mitsubishi%20Carisma%202003%20Lydanlegg%20prosjekt/DSC01178.jpg
http://i918.photobucket.com/albums/ad28/Simen777/Mitsubishi%20Carisma%202003%20Lydanlegg%20prosjekt/DSC01176.jpg

Especially the drivers woofer is very off-axis.
Maybe I should angle them a little upwards?

[arun1963]

The far side tweet looks fine. If the near one is also angled like that, get it a bit more on axis to you. Although, doing this would make the car a single seater for the best sound.

The mid bass is fine where it is. You actually have a good location. You don't need to bring them on axis and angle them upwards. The frequencies that the mids play are more prone to phase issues and they don't carry height cues except at the top. Here your tweets are taking over in any case.

I've tried 3.15khz in my car and it didn't work for me. the 500-5khz range just got too bright, the sound got really tight and lost its openness and balance. The stage height actually fell a bit.

With the tweet at 3.15 on a 12db slope you'd hear like 800hz, 24 db lower than you'd hear 3 khz from your tweet. Of course this range would be louder from your mid-bass but you'd start to get the tweets presence from around 1.25 khz. The sr tweets are made to play 25-30khz well. They will struggle around the 800-2khz mark. You don't want to hear this in your sound. ;)

[TakeTheTime]

http://i918.photobucket.com/albums/ad28/Simen777/Mitsubishi%20Carisma%202003%20Lydanlegg%20prosjekt/DSC01046.jpg

^ Yeah, the tweeter are placed like this on my side too. I think I'll just leave it like this right now,
I think the tweeter on my side is on-axis "enough" - I hear it pretty much as much as the other...

[TakeTheTime]

Oh by the way, it's 3.2khz that is the crossover now, with 24db/octave and 12db/octave. :)