Another iPod question.

[shack]

Let me start off with I do not intend to listen to music I've copied from my CDs on or through my computer or play the files through my 2 channel rig. This is strictly an iPod usage question. I obviously use it for travel and so forth. I have determined that I no longer want to deal with CDs in the car. I am upgrading my HU to one that has a direct iPod connection and controller. I am considering an Alpine digital media receiver like the one shown here that has no CD player at all (could add a changer later if I find I missed the CDs).

http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/products/2007/500/h500iDAX100-f_mt-1.jpeg

I have read up on lossless, EAC/FLAC etc. but feel that for what I intend to use it for that is overkill. I am probably going with AAC 192, 256 or 320 VBR kbps. I may play around with each to see if I can discern much of a difference. What about Apple lossless? Has anyone compared the higher bit rate AAC vs Apple Lossless. I'm working with an 80G Classic so I have quite a bit of room. Computer storage will be on a 160G WD My Book external HD so I have plenty of room there. I would like to get up to 300-400+ CDs copied to my iPod so I think something like EAC would take up too much space. I also don't want to spend all winter downloading CDs. Again there is no real need to use a format other than Apple's since it will be used directly on an iPod or through an iPod controler via a HU. Any thoughts or suggestions?

[zingo]

I use Apple Lossless on my iPod and like the format. It may not be as perfectly lossless as other formats, but it sounds good. They are decent size files, but not too big and I feel worth the size.

[shack]

Is there anything that tells me how an Apple Lossless file size compares to AAC. IE: is it about the same as or larger than an AAC 320 kbps?

[unc2701]

It may not be as perfectly lossless as other formats, but it sounds good.

Could you explain what you mean by that?

[unc2701]

Is there anything that tells me how an Apple Lossless file size compares to AAC. IE: is it about the same as or larger than an AAC 320 kbps?

AAC 320 winds up around 25-30% of the original wav size. Apple Lossless winds up around 40-60%

[shack]

AAC 320 winds up around 25-30% of the original wav size. Apple Lossless winds up around 40-60%

Thanks.

[Joe08867]

It also depends on the content. I have noticed songs that are quieter take less room to do lossless for a given amount of song length.

An easy listening album will take less room than a full blown orchestral album or albums that are hot sounding to begin with. You know the ones that sound like the loudness switch has been turned up to 11.

If your use is mostly in the car I would suggest that 320kbps is more than enough. In the car I have used 128, 196, 320 and lossless on the same album and 320 and lossless were almost identical. Of course the stereo in my car isn't very fancy so your results may be different.

[zingo]

Could you explain what you mean by that?

It is still technically a compressed file as it takes up about half the space of a truly uncompressed files, but is made to sound similar to an uncompressed file.

[John30_30]

It is still technically a compressed file as it takes up about half the space of a truly uncompressed files, but is made to sound similar to an uncompressed file.

Flac is technically compressed too. If Apple has got their lossless codec right, and I'd think so, it decompresses on the fly to == wav or aiff bit-for-bit during playback. In fact, all codecs do. Difference being lossless doesn't eliminate any data from the original track. The really good ones like aac eliminate white noise, very high and low freq's, stuff that won't be noticed.
You'd have to have really good ears and soundsystem in your car to discern a difference between 320k AAC and lossless. It'll be a difference of white noise missing, imho.

[audiobliss]

I played around with some file formats when I was first loading up my iPod, as well. I have the 80GB version, as well, and only about 200 CD's or so. There's NO way I could get them all on my iPod in Apple lossless. I started loading it first thing with Apple Lossless and quickly ran out of room. Right now they're all in MP3 320kbps VBR, and I'm only using about 30GB. So there's quite a difference between the two.

[Joe08867]

I played around with some file formats when I was first loading up my iPod, as well. I have the 80GB version, as well, and only about 200 CD's or so. There's NO way I could get them all on my iPod in Apple lossless. I started loading it first thing with Apple Lossless and quickly ran out of room. Right now they're all in MP3 320kbps VBR, and I'm only using about 30GB. So there's quite a difference between the two.

How do you think the sound is between the two? To me the difference is only noticeable on my home rig but then I really only use the original CD's and Albums on the home rig.

[audiobliss]

I really couldn't say, as I only use my iPod with headphones or in the car with NO critical listening intentions. I'm certainly happy with the MP3 @ 320kbps for that.

[markmarc]

Flat out, if you care about good sound, use Apple Lossless, anything less is throwing out parts of the overall sound thus limiting the musical experience. Granted, you won't hear everything due to car noise, but the amount of loss will be less.

[disneyjoe7]

I use Apple Lossless because I feel the source at that time could be everything.

[unc2701]

It is still technically a compressed file as it takes up about half the space of a truly uncompressed files, but is made to sound similar to an uncompressed file.

Um. It's made to sound identical to an uncompressed file. Someone noticed that WAV files are mathematically inefficient and came up with an algorithm to get the same data in a smaller format.

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about mathematical lossless compression (FLAC, apple lossless), lossy psychoacoustic compression (MP3, AAC) and dynamic range compression (loudness war). These are three very different things- the first has zero impact on the sound.

[shack]

Flat out, if you care about good sound, use Apple Lossless, anything less is throwing out parts of the overall sound thus limiting the musical experience. Granted, you won't hear everything due to car noise, but the amount of loss will be less.

I care about good sound, but that is what my home 2 channel rig is for. I am looking for a compromise between, SQ, file space and time. Given the applications (more background vs critical listening) I'm tempted to just go with AAC 256 or 320 kbps. Just for giggles I may make a copy of a GOOD album in ACC and ALAC and see if I can tell any difference. Haven't decided on the HU but we're talking just replacing the OEM unit (no external amp crossovers etc) and running it through 4 Polk DB series speakers (no sub). Not high end by any means.

[I-SIG]

If I remember Polk Paul's review of the different formats correctly, he noted minimal sound quality differences between AAC320 and ALE in the car, but ALE seemed to be less fatiguing, which I would consider to be a huge deal in the car on a long trip.

FWIW, I decided upfront to go ALE. The trade-off is that I don't have every single song in my library available, so I have to manage my playlists a bit closer to get most of what I want and still save space. I have over 1000 songs with about 50GB used on my 80GB. I need to start ripping some of my classic rock albums this fall and create some playlists for that stuff too.

I guess what I'm saying is go ALE upfront. I'm getting over Achilles surgery. If I had to change CD's for every song I wanted to listen to over the past 2 months my system would not have even been powered up. Plus the ALE is good enough for semi-serious listening, despite what the "golden" ear folks say.

Wes

[Fatbrando]

I use AIFF (apple's version of WAV). I figure you can convert it to anything else on down the sound/quality food chain at a later time. It is a pure uncompressed file. It sounds as close to original CD as you're gonna get. It takes roughly 1/2 gb per album, so 160 gb would equal well over 300 albums. You have the storage capacity, why do this more than once. If you're gonna upload it, do it right the first time!

The real taste test is upload one song at 320 and one at "AIFF/apple lossless/WAV" and listen for yourself. I find it a huge difference...'

FB

[reeltrouble1]

All I can say is it's sad day.

RT1

[shack]

All I can say is it's sad day.

RT1

Don't be sad Ted. If you are referring to my abandoning CDs in my car...no big deal, because I rarely listened to music in the car now. I view this as an opportunity to get away from the radio and back to music on the road.