Decisions, Decisions...

[Zero]

Gentlemen,

For quite some time now, I have found myself scouring over various website's, reading reviews and looking over various types of sub-woofers that may compliment my LSi 9 bookshelves. This seems like a delicate process as the LSi sound is very precise, punchy, yet musical. I am attempting to find a sub to compliment their sound within my set budget of 500-600 dollars. Not including tax, of course.

The sub's I have listened to and have discarded are:

All the Polk subs. Unless the psw808 turns out to be a real winner and stray from the rest....

All the Velodyne lower-end. Nice, but just not accurate enough, nor can they go very deep.

Anything at BestBuy - fuggitabout it.

Phase Technology - Quite decent for the price, but more for theater.

RBH - Its a possibility. I heard the SE1010 meshed with some 9's, wasnt all too thrilled...then again, the set up in the demo room was horrible.

ENERGY - Nope.

INFINITY - Nope

KLIPSCH ksw - Nope - though, I havent heard their "premium" line.

Essentially, everything I have heard so far has not been very promising. I am highly considering SVS, as I would love to have the head-room of deep extension - but I am concerned it will stand out like a sore thumb, sonically.... and not mesh well with the 9's.

For all you Sub-guys (Dr.Spec?), I am looking for leads that fall within the budget set fowarth above. This is a purchase that wont be made till Spring at the earliest.... Regardless, I would appreciate any leads, ideas, or simple suggestions.

Sean

[Frank Z]

Check this out, no it's not mine.

http://www.brandlocker.com/thx/productinformation.cfm?pid=1439&storecode=38

[polkatese]

Sean,
Occasionally, you can find rel strata III on Audiogon for $800, a bit more than your budget, but from now to spring you might be able to save a bit more. One unique quality of rel, as stated by Brian Bloom of Audiophile Audition (Oct 2001 as it relates to Storm):
"Rel recommends using the supplied speaker wire to connect directly to the back of the main amplifier. By taking the signal right off the amplifier and using this signal to derive a line signal to feed the internal subwoofer amp, it is possible to retain the characteristic sound of the main amplifier. Rel believes that you spent time finding a really good amp and either you found something incredibly neutral in which case the sound coming out of the Rel will be neutral, or you have an amp that delivers certain qualities that veer from neutrality, and by using this signal the Rel will have a similar sonic signature." which I found to be very useful in my quest in matching with LSi sonic qualities.....imo

Needless to say, I am very happy with my rel. If you have tweeter around your area, it is worthwhile to audition it

[Dr. Spec]

You are looking to compliment a world class speaker with ostensibly world class bass. Many enthusiasts recommend spending 50-100% of their entire speaker budget on a sub. I paid $1300 for all my Polks and $800 for my sub.

HSU VTF-3 - $850. Receives nothing but rave reviews - great sound quality, extension, and power. Be aware, though, several HTF members have owned both the VTF-3 and the SVS 20-39 PC+ or CS+ and they say sound quality and extension is nearly identical, but according to them "there is really no comparison" in terms of sheer clean output. The SVS wins hands down.

Or wait for the SVS box subs - coming very soon. The PB1-ISD will fit into your price range. The PB2-Plus will be nothing short of incredible. But out of your price range. It will have two "Plus" drivers and will perform just shy of a pair of PC Plus cylinders.

Other excellent choices:

Paradigm Servo-15

Paradigm PW-2200

Velodyne HGS-12 or 15

Klipsch RSW-12 or 15 (stunning sound quality and great output - deep extension is not good below 30 Hz)

[scottvamp]

Dr. Spec is right there may not be anything to your likeing for your budget. It's that simple.
Hope ya find something you like.

[Frank Z]

ATC,
The Sunfire I linked to retails for around $1600, so getting a pre-owned sub for 1/4 to 1/2 the original cost is a damn good deal.

[Zero]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your suggestions. Afraid I may be asking for a bit much for the given price range, but patience can be a virtue sometimes. I have seen some damn good deals out there but never had the cash to spend.

I am still keeping in mind subs from B&W, will have to take a trip back down to VA Beach to demo some of their lower end (ala -affordable) line's.

Will just keep on searching! But will glady accept more suggestions. I hear REL is one of THE accurate sub-woofers for a home system. Like everything else though, it comes with a hefty price.

Considering my budget is 1000.00 in upgrades this year, man, afraid I just cannot coin it.

[polkatese]

Sean,
watch out for this...you might be able to get one of this used within your budget range:

http://www.tweeter.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1163239&cp=&searchId=10263396261&keywords=rel&y=8&x=33&parentPage=search

good luck!

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by ATCVenom
Gentlemen,

I hear REL is one of THE accurate sub-woofers for a home system.

I will say up front I have never heard REL and I probably never will. I can only go by what I've read.

At the risk of incurring Mantis' wrath, I have read from several over at AVS who have heard REL and compared them to other high end subs. Also, check my other post on the in-room FR of the REL Storm III - the FR might be room induced but is not particularly impressive nevertheless.

Try and find an objective review of a REL sub with plotted FR, THD, extension, transient response, and SPL. You won't find one -I've looked high and low. What reviews do exists are invariably British and largely subjective in nature. What I have read from much more experienced listeners and enthusiasts is that the expensive REL mystique vaporizes under the harsh light of objectivity.

Subs are not complicated - they sound almost exactly as they measure. The key variables are overall frequency response, extension, distortion, transient response, dynamic stability, and SPL. Dynamic stability means the FR measures the same within the entire safe SPL operating range of the sub.

[Zero]

Polkatese,

Will keep my eye out for one!

Dr.Spec,

I see a Klipsch RSW10' for roughly 650.00 bucks off of acousticsounddesign.com

Not bad......

[Dr. Spec]

The Klipsch RSW-15 is exactly -15 dB (!!) at 20 Hz, as measured by both Brian Weatherhead and Tom Nousaine. Not exactly a bottom feeder.

As far as the SVS standing out like a sore thumb sonically, I'm not sure what you mean. This is the most neutral, uncolored, detailed, natural sounding, cleanest sub I have ever heard. A perfect compliment to the sound signature of the LSi-9.

Its in-room FR can almost be drawn with a ruler and it is hardly noticeable at all until the source material calls for it. In fact, MANY new SVS owners express initial disappointment because the sub it replaced had a boomy midrange and all of the sudden it's gone and they say - where's all the bass? Exactly. After a week or so of hearing what accurate, clean, deep bass is really supposed to sound like, they can never accept anything less. It has such low THD many reviewers double check their equipment to be sure they are measuring correctly.

Yes, it is capable of prodigious output, but it sounds equally good at all volumes. Even at very low volumes, its ability to dig deep and clean is often startling. The SVS plays what you feed it - no more, no less. Period. It is addicting and there is no substitute, and it was the best investment I ever made in my HT hi-fi system. It is truly a remarkable product.

You have a 45 day return policy - no questions asked. All you pay is return shipping. Take the plunge. If you buy an SVS 20-39PC+ or 16-46 PC+ and you aren't impressed as all get out after two weeks of music and HT demo - I'll pay your return shipping charge up to $35. That's how much I think of these subs.

Doc

[Dr. Spec]

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119016

Speakin of the devil.........sneak peeks of the new SVS PB-ISD.

[polkatese]

Dr. Spec,
just curious, there should be a tweeter around where you live that could audition rel, I am interested to hear your take, since you own svs sub...I never heard svs and was turned off by the physical appearance and not passing the waf test. But, do wonder about its performance.

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by polkatese
Dr. Spec,
just curious, there should be a tweeter around where you live that could audition rel, I am interested to hear your take, since you own svs sub...I never heard svs and was turned off by the physical appearance and not passing the waf test. But, do wonder about its performance.

Check the above link......better WAF? :cool:

Nada one Tweeter to be found in the area. I would like to hear REL in my own room. Auditions at the dealer are tough to get anything useful out of. I could bring the big black tube to the dealer, I suppose for a comparo, but there are no Tweeter's in upstate NY that I know of.

[polkatese]

now we are talking....a regular box. Thanks for the link, I'll watch this one, since I might need another sub for the bedroom...

[Zero]

Dr. Spec,

A very gracious offer you make, I will take you up on it. When I have the funds - I will get the PCi 16-46.

Taking into consideration the punch habits of the LSi-mid-range and mid-bass, I figure a foward, yet smooth deep extension sub will be the most appropriate choice.

Out of all my searching and reading of the reviews, SVS is my first on the list.

Thanks for the sneak peak, that little box looks great.

[RSTERN]

ATCVenom,

I to was in the same price range, but was looking for surrounds and a sub. Dr. Spec suggested the svs, little out of the price range, but l checked them out. I read reviews and post on other boards about this sub and not one unhappy person.

Saved a little exta money and the 20-39pc+ arrived friday. Went with the pc+ per svs recomendations on the size of my room.

After reading part of the manual fired it up and WOW!!! Even at low levels this things sounds great. Blends in great with my rt16s. Heard new sounds in movies that were not there with my old sub(kenwood). The part in monster inc., where they blow up the sock shook the house.

I really think it made my main speaker sound better with music. I listen to all kinds of music and this sub never sound out of place once.

Money well spent. Wish I could have 2 of them.

Rob Stern

[Dr. Spec]

Ahhh......another satisfied owner. ATC - get the Plus; for around $200 more, you get the better driver, the better amp, 70% more port area with tuning plugs, an adjustable SS filter, and infinitely variable phase control. It outperforms the PCi by nearly 6 dB of max output below 30 Hz. Above 30 Hz it's more like 4 dB.

[Zero]

RSTERN,

Glad to see you enjoy the sub. I hear it does wonders for cinema. Unfortunately I dont have the rig to operate a decent home theater system.

Dr. Spec,

We will just have to see how the cards fall. I truely intend on staying with my alotted one-thousand dollar budget. Truth be told, I now have 850 left since I purchased a Monster Power-Conditioning Unit.

To purchase the pc-plus would leave me with nothing more then perhaps 50 bucks for a good cd player. This is NOT including shipping and what not. I suppose going a few dollars over is not too bad, but I would like to prevent it as much as possible.

I am curious if the sheer out-put will be at the expense of accuracy. There is only one way to test, but I want to cover all my basis just for sanity sake.

I am going to attach two pics of my listening area (room). Its a smaller room, only 12x8 or so. I figure I wont need a beast to fill this area up... and it will be awhile until I own my own home (not - apartment).

[Zero]

The Chair

[joe logston]

all above mite be to much sub, if you can get to listen to the james, model emb-1000, there the best musical sub you can buy. i demo them at the 2003 ces. they sound awesome with them you get all the top end , sound stage, and have a great botten end. all i can say is there perfect. they have the best specs of any sub.

www.jamesloudspeaker.com

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by ATCVenom
I am curious if the sheer out-put will be at the expense of accuracy. There is only one way to test, but I want to cover all my basis just for sanity sake. Its a smaller room, only 12x8 or so. I figure I wont need a beast to fill this area up... and it will be awhile until I own my own home (not - apartment).

Wow! Nice digs. Who does your interior decorating?

As Matt Damon says in Oceans 11: "Well, yeah." That IS a small room. At least it's not square - that's tough on subs. You won't need a great deal of volume in that room to fill it, I agree.

If you end up in a larger HT room in your house, you will appreciate the Plus, that's all. I can't believe how much more features, output, and tuning/set-up flexibility they give you in the Plus line for only $200 more. It is without question the best value in the line-up.

Anway, as far as your accuracy question goes, the sonic signature of all like-sized SVS products is similar. For example, a 20-39 CS, 20-39 CS+, and a 20-39 Ultra will all sound similar with the same amp up to their respective max output levels.

There are three drivers in the SVS line-up. The CS and PCi line uses the Improved Standard Driver (ISD for short). The CS+ and PC+ line uses the dB-12 driver by famous woofer maker TC Sounds. The Ultra and the SS use the mammoth TV-12 driver also by TC Sounds. These are all proprietary drivers and cannot be purchased in other products or on-line.

Notice, I said "similar". While they are ALL extraordinarily good drivers with very low THD, each successively better driver has improved T/S parameters, a stronger motor and drive assembly which has better control over the cone motion, and less total harmonic distortion. Each model step-up will sound slightly cleaner and have better detail. I have heard the PCi vs. the PC+ and while it is not night and day, to the discriminating ear the difference in bass detail and clarity is noticeable. With the 9's in the line-up, I'd think maximum detail and clarity would be a priority for you - another good reason for the Plus dB-12 driver.

FWIW, I will be hearing an Ultra (TV-12 driver) in the next week with the Samson S1000 external amp, and I'll let you know how much better I think it sounds than the Plus line.

[Zero]

Dr. Spec

Thank you for all your suggestions and advice. It has been noted greatly.

Unless I happen to stumble across a deal or find a sub that falls within my budget, I will most likely either go with the PCi or the PC Plus - whatever the funds allow.

Because this rig will remain 2-channel and eventually end up as simply a study / bedroom / office rig in the future, I am not concerning myself with heavy expenses, whatever will pass until I can afford the true high-end. :)

Once again Dr. Thanks.

[gidrah]

Since you don't want to pick up a hand swa and tape measure I'd suggest any sub Dr. Spec suggests. It might be a little over your suggested price, but I think a CD player upgrade would show much less return for your money.

At $50 you can get a used Playstion. The top loading may not be convenient for rack use, but it sounds surprisingly good. Better than the PS2 IMHO. If you're not opposed to pinking up a soldering iron, there are tweaks for this or any budget player that can put them in the realm of much higher priced players.

P.S. As I've said, the most musical subs I've heard were rear horn loaded or transmission line. The t-lines can have a small footprint.

[faster100]

DR.spec...
Ok now i want one of these SVS's, with some tax money we will be getting soon, do i really really need the 850 sub instead of the 550.00 pci???????? I also have a small room i believe at 10x10 or 12 can't remember, and what does the shipping cost on these subs?? Thanks as always

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by faster100
DR.spec...
Ok now i want one of these SVS's, with some tax money we will be getting soon, do i really really need the 850 sub instead of the 550.00 pci???????? I also have a small room i believe at 10x10 or 12 can't remember, and what does the shipping cost on these subs?? Thanks as always

Any PCi (even a 16-46) will reach insane SPL in a 10x10 room. No need for the more powerful PC+, SPL-wise.

The Plus sounds a bit cleaner, though in a direct comparison, but they sound much more alike than they differ.

FR in a square room might suffer from room-induced peaks and nulls, but that's not the subs fault.

[faster100]

Thanks again