Warm receiver that will do SACD over HDMI in 5.1?

[sdschwendener]

Hey everyone,

I've been asking a ton of similar questions lately and for this I am sorry. I have one final, ultimate question concerning a receiver I must get advice about.

I have a SACD capable PS3. SACD wont do multichannel over optical so I must use HDMI. I am planning on getting a new receiver soon to go with my RTI setup and it must work with my PS3 for multichannel audio for SACD (If I bought the receiver convinced it was going to be surround and I got stereo.. I might have an aneurysm).

According to PS3SACD.com "any AV receiver with multichannel PCM input via HDMI will do."

The Marantz SR5002 is suggested on the site. However, I've read around some say this receiver has hdmi 1.3, some say its only 1.1. I'm guessing it infact is hdmi 1.3?

I would like a "warm" receiver with the watts if possible but I'll take any hints you can give me. I wanted a Denon but could not find an older one in the price range I was looking for that could do this.

I can spend up to 500 on a receiver. Any recommendations? If the marantz is a go I can get one refurbished for less than $400. Should I avoid a refurb like the plague (cause im seriously considering one & and I will accept any alternative recommendations).

Help all you greater Polkies! "Hooo!!!!"

[Kex]

... I would like a "warm" receiver with the watts if possible but I'll take any hints you can give me. I wanted a Denon but could not find an older one in the price range I was looking for that could do this.

I can spend up to 500 on a receiver. Any recommendations? If the marantz is a go I can get one refurbished for less than $400. Should I avoid a refurb like the plague (cause im seriously considering one & and I will accept any alternative recommendations). ...
I am not one of the greater Polkies that you requested, but I do my best! I have not used Marantz, but I have heard that they have a warmer sound also. The confusion surrounding the SR5002 seems to stem from the fact that the specifications list "HDMI v1.3a Switching/ v1.1 Repeating: 3-In/1-Out", Somebody else will have to explain the difference between switching and repeating correctly, but it looks to me like you might be good to go nonetheless: "Multi-channel (7.1) LPCM via HDMI capability". Otherwise, the SR5003 seems to have what you want.

SR5002: http://us.marantz.com/689.asp?category=AV&model=SR5002&go.x=15&go.y=9
SR5003: http://us.marantz.com/689.asp?category=AV&model=SR5003&go.x=13&go.y=6

The other brand that is frequently mentioned in this regard, and that fits right in your price range, is the harman/kardon AVR354. I love my h/k! I think it does a great job, and mine is just entry level. The 354 should do a lot more, especially since h/k power is measured "all channels driven", and by those standards, 75w/ch is a LOT. They also have exceeded the published ratings in any bench tests I have ever encountered ... by a large margin. The 354 is currently about $500 from amazon.com. Prices can vary widely in short periods of time though, so be careful about waiting too long if you think you like it.

http://www.harmankardon.com/product_detail.aspx?cat=REC&sType=&prod=AVR+354

[Igo]

PS3 is SACD??????

[sdschwendener]

PS3 is SACD??????


20 & 60 GB PS3 has SACD. Some 80s do also but not all.


Kex, thanks for the help bud! I check out those HK's

[Igo]

Holley candy bars. I have the 80GB 4 USB+SD card PS3. That puppy also plays 5.1 channel SACDs. I had no idea. Now I have 3 SACD players but the PS3 gives me the groovy orbital view of earth while I'm listening.
I'm so pleased.

[sdschwendener]

Well I pulled the trigger on the Marantz SR5003 for 600.. but I got 150 off from Microsoft's Cashback on ebay. I suppose I could do that whole wild turkey chase in the store for deals but this was convenient, effective, and legit.

Thanks for your help Polkies.

[F1nut]

"any AV receiver with multichannel PCM input via HDMI will do."


I'm really not sure, but that statement indicates to me that it is converting DSD (SACD) to PCM (redbook), which totally defeats the benefit of SACD.

[Igo]

I'm really not sure, but that statement indicates to me that it is converting DSD (SACD) to PCM (redbook), which totally defeats the benefit of SACD.
Yep. My Sony ES Sounds better than my PS3 for SACD playback

[mantis]

There are a few receivers that are warm but they might get out of your price range.

Pioneer ELite vsx01tx. It's a fantastic receiver for how much you pay vs what you get. It has tons of power and great dynamics. Perfect match for your Rti speakers. But you will have to save alittle more money. It would be well worth it.

Denon receivers are warm as well but not as detailed as the Pioneer Elites. But they are fully featured and you can get one at your price range. Still a pretty good match for Rti as they tend to be a bit bright.

Marantz receivers like Denon are still on the warm side but lack in features. They have most of what most people want, but dollar for dollar I believe no one can beat Pioneer ELite.

Sony Es receivers are nice,They have a little different setup then others but sound great. I have always liked ES receivers.

Stay clear of Integra/Onkyo and Yamaha . These receivers are not Warm at all. If anything they are bright. I'm not a fan of either. They do however offer a lot if you like how they sound. Integra is one of the very best custom receivers on the market. Easily integrated into many systems.
Maybe a bit more but again I feel a receiver is not the place to limit yourself to much, this is where you want to spend some money. I looked over your system and I really feel the Pioneer ELite vsx01tx is the right choice. You could however look used at a Pioneer ELite vsx92txh. This is a well balanced receiver and you probably can find one around 600.00 which in my opinion is a steal.

Good luck,

Dan

[Igo]

I just paid 700 for last years ES at Crutchfield. It started at 1300. Lovely sound.

[Face]

The Onkyo 706 decodes DSD, but as mentioned above, it's not very warm.

[Danny Tse]

I'm really not sure, but that statement indicates to me that it is converting DSD (SACD) to PCM (redbook), which totally defeats the benefit of SACD.

I'm quite sure this is correct.

[sdschwendener]

I'm quite sure this is correct.

I'm not sure about all of these things. I really could use clarification on PCM. What I do know is the Marantz I will be getting has hdmi 1.3a and straight from the company's website:
"And you’ll enjoy the latest high bit-rate audio formats such as Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD in both High Resolution and Master Audio implementations, as well as DSD (the data structure behind the SA-CD) and legacy formats such as Dolby Digital, etc. thanks to an advanced Texas Instruments microprocessor."

Furthermore, I know for sure the PS3 supports multichannel SACD playback over HDMI and but only stereo playback over optical.

Any thoughts?
**edit: I read a wikipedia entry on PCM and have some clarification but more confusion also.

Regardless.. my PS3 IS my SACD player.. and I wont be buying a different one.. so explain to me the downside here.. Is it just not going to have the lossless resolution?

[Danny Tse]

Dependent whether you're a "DSD purist" or not.

The PS3's HDMI output downconverts the DSD bitstream to PCM before outputting it thru the HDMI output. This is the same situation with the Oppo 970, a player famous for being the first to transmit SACD over a single HDMI cable. "DSD purist" wants the DSD bitstream converted to analog directly, whether it is done within the player or by a DSD-capable HT receiver via HDMI v1.3 connection. Even when a HT receiver is capable of accepting a HDMI v1.3 input, you need to ask wehther the HT receiver is able to decode DSD to analog directly since some of the converts the DSD bitstream to PCM as well.

With the above in mind, can you really hear the conversion from DSD to PCM? Oppo's 970/980 downconverts DSD to 88.2 PCM before outputting the signal thru their analog outputs, yet the general concensus is that they sound quite good despite the downconversion. The only judge will your ears.

[F1nut]

Thanks Danny, I thought that's what they were saying.




Regardless.. my PS3 IS my SACD player.. and I wont be buying a different one.. so explain to me the downside here.. Is it just not going to have the lossless resolution?

Any conversion to PCM will negate the benefits of DSD. I mean, why bother!?!

[sdschwendener]

Any conversion to PCM will negate the benefits of DSD. I mean, why bother!?!

I needed a receiver better than my 200 dollar Pioneer so that is the reason for the purchase. As for SACD over PS3.. I can. Thats why. Believe me.. I'm not planning on picking up another format. I like having mp3s and vinyl.. but I just want to try listening to 1 specific SACD in 5.1 rather than taking the stereo mp3 and having dolby output it in 5.1.

If I had the chance to purchase a multichannel SACD player for say 100 dollars I might go ahead and do it.. however, from what I've read SACD players are usually only stereo and cost several hundred dollars. So based on the fact that I'll have all capable hardware that can play multichannel sacd with the channels preserved how they were mastered.. why wouldn't I do it?

[Kex]

Well I pulled the trigger on the Marantz SR5003 for 600.. but I got 150 off from Microsoft's Cashback on ebay. I suppose I could do that whole wild turkey chase in the store for deals but this was convenient, effective, and legit.

Thanks for your help Polkies.
Congratulations on your new receiver! Yes, online is a lot less wild than those turkey chases in stores! We all expect a review after you've had time to discover it a bit.

[Kex]

I needed a receiver better than my 200 dollar Pioneer so that is the reason for the purchase. As for SACD over PS3.. I can. Thats why.

If I had the chance to purchase a multichannel SACD player for say 100 dollars I might go ahead and do it.. however, from what I've read SACD players are usually only stereo and cost several hundred dollars. So based on the fact that I'll have all capable hardware that can play multichannel sacd with the channels preserved how they were mastered.. why wouldn't I do it?
There is a Pioneer 48 something model that is exactly $100 right now (well $99 actually, IIRC), maybe from Vanns, but it probably includes shipping and tax. Search around here: there is a thread about it somewhere with very recent posts.

Found it! http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/486974189

[sdschwendener]

There is a Pioneer 48 something model that is exactly $100 right now (well $99 actually, IIRC), maybe from Vanns, but it probably includes shipping and tax. Search around here: there is a thread about it somewhere with very recent posts.




Kex,

That was insanely fast and you sir are a champ. I'm going to do much more reading about this player.

[reeltrouble1]

Any conversion to PCM will negate the benefits of DSD. I mean, why bother!?!

Sony's priority was not about providing the listener with a machine that would output optimum sound, just that they would buy the software. Very confusing and a result of the bean counters being fully in charge. I mean the whole point of SACD is increased sound quality, so why use an inferior machine.

RT1

[Danny Tse]

There is a Pioneer 48 something model that is exactly $100 right now (well $99 actually, IIRC), maybe from Vanns, but it probably includes shipping and tax. Search around here: there is a thread about it somewhere with very recent posts.

Found it! http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/486974189

And it will pass the native DSD bitsream thru HDMI v1.3

[Kex]

And it will pass the native DSD bitsream thru HDMI v1.3
Another player that will do this IIRC, and that is frequently mentioned as an entry level SACD & DVD-A player, is the Oppo 980, which is about $170 from amazon.com, and may be a little cheaper there (with shipping considered) than bought direct http://oppodigital.com/, but it does not upscale video as well as some of their other units for larger screens, according to Oppo. FWIW. I have the Oppo myself, but I suspect the Pioneer is as good, certainly better in some respects AFIK, so it looks like a real bargain in comparison right now.

[F1nut]

So based on the fact that I'll have all capable hardware that can play multichannel sacd with the channels preserved how they were mastered.. why wouldn't I do it?


Ummm......that's not the case. Once again, the conversion from DSD to PCM negates any benefit of the high resolution that DSD offers.

[WilliamM2]

Ummm......that's not the case. Once again, the conversion from DSD to PCM negates any benefit of the high resolution that DSD offers.


Unless you consider that most SACD's are mastered far better than CD's. He will still get that benefit.

[sdschwendener]

Unless you consider that most SACD's are mastered far better than CD's. He will still get that benefit.

Thank you

[F1nut]

I disagree.

[sdschwendener]

I disagree.

Regardless, with the PS3 I'm not having to pay more for another player to get 5.1 music. Still.. I am considering another player but my biggest concern is being able to connect all my hardware into the receiver at the same time. I have an apple tv, ps3 and a turntable already.

[F1nut]

Oki doki then.

[WilliamM2]

I disagree.


I'm shocked.

According to what he is saying though, he wants discreet multi channel sound. He can't get that with CD's.

Another factor to look at, if he goes pure DSD, either the player handles bass management, or the receiver/pre-pro will have to convert it to PCM in order to do any kind of bass management. In most cases the receiver/pre-pro will have far more flexibility in bass management.

[Igo]

I needed a receiver better than my 200 dollar Pioneer so that is the reason for the purchase. As for SACD over PS3.. I can. Thats why. Believe me.. I'm not planning on picking up another format. I like having mp3s and vinyl.. but I just want to try listening to 1 specific SACD in 5.1 rather than taking the stereo mp3 and having dolby output it in 5.1.

If I had the chance to purchase a multichannel SACD player for say 100 dollars I might go ahead and do it.. however, from what I've read SACD players are usually only stereo and cost several hundred dollars. So based on the fact that I'll have all capable hardware that can play multichannel sacd with the channels preserved how they were mastered.. why wouldn't I do it?

How's 'bout a $130 5.1 output SACD player that does what it suggests it does. Plays SACd's like it's supposed to. ($150 regular price)
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/AddToCart.aspx?i=158SCDC595&cc=07&callpage=%2fApp%2fProduct%2fItem%2fMain.aspx%3fi%3 d158SCDC595%26tp%3d197

[Igo]

Kex,

That was insanely fast and you sir are a champ. I'm going to do much more reading about this player.
Yepper, it is the real deal. $100