Bad Recordings - The Meal Ticket of the HiFi Business [Archive]

Bass_Pedal

01-19-2009, 11:56 PM

First I should say, I'm sure I'm not the first person on the forum to think about this, but I felt compelled to share. Here is the scenario that all of us have lived through: You just finish making some upgrades to your system, you start some serious music listening (after burn-in if new) and you really start to dig what you're hearing. The sound stage is broad and deep, the highs are sweet, the bass is slamming yet tight and controlled. It's the momentary “Top of the Mountain” that is experienced occasionally that always brings us back for more. Then something happens, you put in a disc or drop the needle on a crap piece of badly mastered, horribly mixed or compressed music that sounds brutal (the first chink in the amour) Discounting the experience you justify it rightly by assuming it was a bad recording. Time goes by, you listen to some well recorded and some not so well recorded sources and finally comes the day when you hear something that puts you over the edge. “It's got to be my pre-amp!! it's just not musical enough!” or “I think it's time to look at better amplification, it's just not doing it for me anymore.” or better still “I got to overhaul this rig, everything sounds horrible!!” This is a phenomenon that I wasn't really conscience of until recently, but I'm quite wary of it now. I know it's no conspiracy, but sometimes it makes me wonder if that horribly produced CD from Sony Records prompts someone to purchase a new Sony CD player.... Hmmmm :)

F1nut

01-20-2009, 12:35 AM

nooshinjohn

01-20-2009, 01:35 AM

well said... I remember how good it was to listen to def leppard on my realistic all in one... then I thought def leppard sounded great on technics.... now def leppard, although great at what they do just does not have the musical depth and that technics/radio shack crap is where it belongs... landfill

mantis

01-20-2009, 06:00 AM

The better the gear, the worse the bad recordings sound. Sometimes I wish I had stuck with whatever crap I had when I was 14 as I can't remember anything sounding badly. Of course, I didn't know what true hifi sound was either.
This is so very true. I remember getting new cd's in the late 80's and loving every single one. Never even considered my gear or the cd to sound bad. Now it's a crap shoot.

comfortablycurt

01-20-2009, 06:11 AM

I've just recently started realizing how bad some of my CD's are since I got my Onk 606. Granted my speakers aren't very high end at the moment, but even just using a better receiver has made my sound quality a lot more revealing. I have a ton of Grateful Dead live bootlegs, and a lot of them I can barely stand to listen to anymore because the sound quality is so bad. I just never noticed it before I got my Onk...cuz everything sounded bad on my old Optimus receiver. They're gonna sound terrible once I'm running through some Polk RTi's...Oh well, at least I've got plenty of other stuff that doesn't have terrible SQ...at least not yet anyway.;)

Maybe I just shouldn't upgrade anymore...lol...that way I'll be able to keep listening to all of my current CD's....yeah right....upgradeitis has hit me like a freight train...:eek:

reeltrouble1

01-20-2009, 09:39 AM

You newer fella's need to grasp the concept of Limited Necessity.

Basically this involves developing an understanding that purchasing those items deemed necessary is in fact submission to forces exerted by external circumstances and a waste of good audio fundage.

Once you accept and free yourself from the burden of necessary items you will be amazed at the increase in the coinage available for those things that were not necessary. However, past experience has shown that it is important to spend copious amounts of your new found dollars on audio related gear lest it become mundane and heaven forbid deemed necessary.

RT1

Igo

01-20-2009, 09:48 AM

When I was 10, 1967 or 68, my father brought home a monster sized German made Telefunken. I can't say if it was top audio for the day or not but I knew darned well there was something very different about it. At 16 (early 70's) I bought a Craig PowerPlay (20Wx2) and two Jenson 6x9's with 80 oz magnets for my '66 Falcon. People migrated to hear my car stereo until I blew the tweeter cones off. I guess I've always known there was a difference though, to this day, I've still not been exposed to a modern high end set up. Probably a good thing.
In 1967 or so, my father bought me Beatles Rubber Soul and Beach Boys 20/20 because the lady in the record store told dad these were what the kids were listening to today. These probably shaped my musical taste and influence it to this day. But in 1972 Elton John did a song called Daniel and dad still had the Telefunken for me to play it on. At 14 I don't think I really realized there were bad recordings but I knew that in 1972 something happened to make a really good recording. Daniel was so modern and fluid and "listenable". It was a recording to try to pick out each instrument and put myself in the middle of.
I'm still on a never ending quest to find new music. On this forum just days ago I was introduced to a lady named Rebecca Pidgeon. I went to Amazon to find her music and I listened to some examples over my computer speakers. I liked the melodies and discovered one release was an SACD Hybrid. Thrilled I snatched it up. I listened to it in my car and just brought it into the house to check out the SACD section. Funny, another realization in music. This hybrid "SACD" is probably one of the worst redbook recordings I've ever heard. I'm almost afraid to listen to the SACD section for fear it will also burst my SACD bubble. LOL.
"Isn't life strange?"

steveinaz

01-20-2009, 10:11 AM

Alot of people are seriously disappointed when they upgrade into some fine equipment for these reasons. I have always felt that Redbook CD is perfectly capable of excellent sound---provided it's recorded well.

Fongolio

01-20-2009, 12:04 PM

mhardy6647

01-20-2009, 12:12 PM

The better the gear, the worse the bad recordings sound. Sometimes I wish I had stuck with whatever crap I had when I was 14 as I can't remember anything sounding badly. Of course, I didn't know what true hifi sound was either.

There is truth to this -- e.g., I cannot say I've ever heard the early Beatles LPs sound better than they did on a Magnavox mono record player (tabletop,not a console) in a friend's basement 'way back when.

I also think the first truism above ("the better the gear, the worse the... recordings sound") invites some comment :-) Some good equipment ('specially speakers) is ruthlessly sensitive to the quality of the program material and electronic chain -- Lowther fullrange loudspeaker drivers spring to mind, as do the Klipsch "Heritage" speaker systems :-)

Then again, there are "forgiving" components... the original Polk Monitors (7 and 10) and the British loudspeakers that inspired them are cogent examples, I would say. Among the most 'tolerant' loudspeakers I am aware of are the midline late-1970s ADS speakers (e.g., L-710, L-810). These are eminently listenable loudspeakers. I guess one must conclude that they're not extremely accurate (e.g., highly processed, multitrack 'pop' recordings may be palatable through L-710s, but drive one screaming from the room through Cornwalls), but they are extremely musical.

YMMV, of course.

EDIT: it's also probably worth mentioning that many great pop recordings were deliberately mastered using absolutely awful sounding monitors (Yamaha NS-10, Auratone "cubes") so that they'd sound right through the factory car radio speakers of their era.

EDIT^2: I should probably also mention the Quad electrostatic loudspeakers, or at least the original ESL-57. Within their operating range (which admittedly doesn't go too high nor too low) these push-pull ESL dipoles are said to be among the least-colored reproducers ever made... but they also have the capability to make virtually any recording sound good. A conundrum?

Bass_Pedal

01-20-2009, 01:04 PM

But the opposite can be true. When you find something (on vinyl in my case) that sounds totally unexpectedly amazing. The other day I put on an 80's LP that came in a box of others I got at a garage sale last summer. Rock and Hyde's Under the Volcano. I was only expecting a bit of nostalgia but what an amazing recording! Clean clear and dynamic. Punchy bass. I was blown away by how good it sounded. Not my favorite genre and certainly not my fav band but when the recording is good I can listen to almost anything.

Rock and Hyde!! Wow that's a blast from the past! I had a similar experience with an old Roger Waters LP I picked up last week. The Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking, friends of mine back in university always went on about how great the album was but I was never a big Waters fan so I skipped it. Found it in the discount bin for 4 bucks so I figured I’d give it a listen. Little did I know that I would be inviting Eric Clapton into my living room to put on a show!! I would love to know what techniques they used to record this album and why on earth they aren’t widely used in the industry. I still can't stand Waters' voice but that record is incredible.

Igo

01-20-2009, 09:45 PM

Early B.

01-20-2009, 11:20 PM

Music is the necessary evil of this hobby. The vast majority of it sucks, and plenty of the good stuff don't sound so good.

Here's my advice -- ditch the crappy CDs and LPs and limit yourself to buying only high quality recordings. This means you gotta throw away some of your favorite artists, but that's a small sacrifice to make. In the long run, you'll be glad you did. Otherwise, sell all of your gear, get yourself a really nice $99 boombox and find something else to throw your money away on.

Fongolio

01-20-2009, 11:28 PM

cnh

01-20-2009, 11:43 PM

I've heard that recent CDs are being engineered so as to PLAY LOUD which means that they're undergoing a kind of compression that affects the full sound range 20-20k. This to attract that listener of certain kinds of music.

Perhaps this is also a problem you are experiencing. I have an old vintage pair of JBL studio monitors and talk about 'revealing' bad mixes. Sheeesh! Don't get me started!

Also, have you noticed that a CD that sounds less than good on your home system sounds Good on your standard Toyota car 6 speaker CD system? Precisely because there is less resolution there!

That drives me bonkers.

cnh

rayslifecycle

01-21-2009, 04:07 PM

The shame of it is you can buy what is supposed to be a high quality recording like 180 gram vinyl that still sounds like crap. The biggest disappointment so far has been a 180 gram version of REM's Automatic For The People. Mediocre at best. I later bought the original 150 gram release. Way way better. Go figure. But, just this evening I listened to a 200 gram version of Peter Gabriel's Up. Unbelievable sound. Deep room rattling bass but every subltly and nuance in the music clear and musical and the widest soundstage I've ever heard on a recording. Very much like surround but with two speakers and with the sonic holography on my Carver pre-amp off.

How true - I recently had a little vinyl party with 2 friends. Each brought over a couple of albums and we played up to one side of each.
One of the records heard was a re-release of Beach Boys - Pet Sounds on 180gram vinyl. The vocals sounded like they were recorded beyond "peak" levels.....not sure how else to describe it.........it was awful, just awful.

On the other hand - I hate Justin Timberlake - but the HBO concert Futuresex/Lovemagic in Madison Square Garden sounded so good on HBOHD - that I bought it for my fiance (She loves him) and I don't mind when it is playing because it sounds so good......her mp3/cd versions of the same songs make me want to turn off the system..........they sound that bad

Igo

01-21-2009, 08:23 PM

Let me start a thread. "Well Engineered Recordings" and have folks list some things. I'm sure it's been done but not since I've been here so its been awahile.
Join us will you?

cokewithvanilla

01-23-2009, 09:45 PM

I was thinking the same thing. It would also be nice to have a thread of poor recordings... so that we can see if it's just the recording before we decide to take a shotgun to our speakers :/

organ

01-24-2009, 12:52 AM

So true. Now when I get the upgrade itch (usually starts with me thinking the system is not musical enough), I take out one of my reference cd's to remind myself how good the system actually sounds. Then the itch goes away. Don't let crappy recordings make you buy new gear.

Keiko

01-24-2009, 02:31 AM

EDIT: it's also probably worth mentioning that many great pop recordings were deliberately mastered using absolutely awful sounding monitors (Yamaha NS-10, Auratone "cubes") so that they'd sound right through the factory car radio speakers of their era.

I'll agree that a lot of really good recordings were mastered with these speakers. Which is why nowadays it's more difficult to find music that is I imagine. But I want to add that I own a pair of the NS10M's. If I have a crappy source on these speakers they are very revealing and it sounds terrible. On the other hand though, and this is just my subjective opinion, a well mastered CD/Lp. sounds very good on them. These speakers are very detailed and are unforgiving. The idea when using these as mastering tools for the studio engineers was if they could get a mix to sound good using them, then essentially the mix would sound good when played back on other equipment.

Hilbert

01-24-2009, 05:40 AM

There's a flip side---maybe this is what Igo is getting at, above---good recordings that sound bad on bad equipment, and come into their own following an upgrade.

My most recent example is Boston Baroque's recording of Bach's orchestral suites, which sounded very tinny and boomy on my monitor 50s with my yamaha 663's meager amp. Listened to it the other day, however, with 663 --> xpa 5 --> LSis, and it was close to musicians in the room.

So investing in audio gear doesn't invariably lead to hating your music more and throwing out a lot of CDs. :)

Igo

01-24-2009, 12:12 PM

There's a thread going asking what those reference CDs are. I sure wish we could hear from everybody here on that thread. Reference CD is what I'm looking for.

george daniel

01-24-2009, 12:58 PM

The better the gear, the worse the bad recordings sound. Sometimes I wish I had stuck with whatever crap I had when I was 14 as I can't remember anything sounding badly. Of course, I didn't know what true hifi sound was either.

Yep,, my listening library is much smaller now. A bad recording on a good system sounds embarrasingly horrible.

beardog03

01-24-2009, 02:33 PM

unfortunately I have a large library of crappy recordings

once you get gear that will let you here the difference between well recorded music, average recordings, and just plain crappy recordings, it makes some of the music you really like hard to listen to......

It also forced one to spend more $$ on better recorded music, and while searching, you end up with even more crappy music !!!

It`s a vicious circle sometimes

zombiemusic

01-30-2009, 02:38 PM

So I am still relativly new to the world of polk not only to the speakers (which have changed my addiction to music) but to the forum community as well. you have helped me with some things already. But I have to tell you this thread is the best one out here. Becasue I thought I was going insane hearing things that sounded bad or distortion on my speakers. Because sometimes i would here or sometimes i would not. And then when I would here it on my car or other systems it sounded fine. But because of this post I can relax that i am not truly insane and now realize that there are bad recordings! Its the wierded thing but its the truth. I feel better knowing that its not just me hearing things on recordings. Thank you once again club polk.

Igo

01-30-2009, 09:42 PM

I was 8 years old when I learned the difference and I didn't know I knew the difference. LOL. It doesn't always require some kind of a Master; trust your ears.

LessisNevermore

01-31-2009, 12:20 AM

I think a "Buyer Beware" thread might be good. Any recording with enough compression to produce a diamond qualifies.

To me, it's silly to toss out some of your favorite cd's/lp's, just because they have warts. At that point, it's more about listening to your system, than the music. That's the reason I got into this hobby - the MUSIC. ("funny, this disc used to kill through the Cerwins..."):D Maybe someday I'll toss all my favorites, and invest in music I don't like just because it sounds good on my stereo.:rolleyes:

Maybe there is some merit to having two setups, or find a compromise. Or maybe we just haven't found the recipe for a setup that allows everything to sound great. Or maybe those mega $$ speakers aren't up to snuff after all.

It's funny that we try so many alterations to achieve unaltered sound.

You may now resume chasing the mechanical rabbit.:p

TSWisla

01-31-2009, 09:42 PM

Early B.

01-31-2009, 11:22 PM

Let me add one thing to this. I have paid an arm and a leg for remastered 180g or 200g vinyl that sounded very poor. Then I go to a garage sale and buy Willie Nelson's Songwriter for $0.25 and it blows my mind. I just do not get it...

Yep, you get it. Price don't mean a damn thing in audio.:eek:

For music, it's hard to know what it's gonna sound like on your system until you buy it and play it. I probably reject 75% of the CDs I buy. Listening to on-line samples helps, but it can be very deceiving.

inspiredsports

02-01-2009, 01:21 AM

My belief is that there is such a high degree of variability in recording equipment and actual recording studio ambiance that it is hard for any one system to properly showcase every recording.

Most don't have equalizers anymore. While I typically do not use it, I'm fortunate that my vintage NAD gear has some simple, well thought out parametric setting where I can go + or - 6 db at 50, 150, 250, 3K, 6K and 12KHz. You can't believe how much difference this makes int breathing life back into some poorly mastered recordings.

I'm also fortunate to have 2 sets of tweaked Polks with different sound qualities side by side, each with their own preamp/amp, multiple CD/DVD players and Thorens turntables, and even a Blu-Ray in the mix in my dedicated listening room.

I have a basic setup that I consider "neutral" that I use to listen to 90% of my music, but I honestly have not found a recording within that other 10% that I can't get to sound great.

The bottom line is that if you are listening to multiple format music that has been recorded over the past 5 decades, there really is no one "end all, be all" system that is going to make you happy.

And before you say it costs too much, don't. Most of my equipment has come from shrewd buying on various forums and eBay. By asking a few questions to ascertain condition before I buy, and with nothing more than a little elbow grease and some basic mechanical skills, one man's trash has truly become another man's treasure!

powerestudio

04-14-2009, 08:43 PM

I´m looking to buy Lsi9
People with these speakers... crappy and bad recordings are showed with facility with Lsi9? so with good productions cd they sound amazingly and with bad cd´s they sing amazingly bad ?

so Lsi9 are very neutral and reveling speakers? because they show the truth..?

fatchowmein

04-15-2009, 01:47 AM

The truth hurts.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81444

Although, I do enjoy my LSi9's mated to my HK3485 but this setup wasn't for truth - just needed tunes in my home office.

scottnbnj

04-15-2009, 03:55 PM

last week my son was doing a sleep over and wanted his ps2 out of the system so he could bring it with him. some nasties have been creeping in lately, so i took the opportunity to re-route and reseat some cables, put the grilles on for company and move the tv back a few more inches. it's probably about a foot behind the front baffles now and is now a few more inches behind the plane of the front baffle's with slight toe-in.

so, i've been impressed with the results and have been happily going back through stuff i listened to before the clean-up. when stuff like this happens i usually pull out a few cd's that i've been unhappy with too because there are often pleasant surprises.

in particular i've had this old pressing of moody blues 'days of future passed' cd for several years that i bought used. it's poor performance has been a dissappointment since i remember the vinyl as outstanding. last night, the depth and width of this thing was just knocking my socks off, the stage was extending to the listening position with a solid floor effortlessly. it still doesn't make the upper echelon, but it does get some things very right now.

anyway, neat stuff.

)

George Grand

04-15-2009, 04:42 PM

But, just this evening I listened to a 200 gram version of Peter Gabriel's Up. Unbelievable sound. Deep room rattling bass but every subltly and nuance in the music clear and musical and the widest soundstage I've ever heard on a recording. Very much like surround but with two speakers and with the sonic holography on my Carver pre-amp off.

A great many arteests in the late 80's and 90's employed a recording technique called "Q" Sound. This was basically embedding a hologram onto the master tape, much like you could do at home with cassette or open reel and a C-9 Hologram Generator. Peter Gabriel, Madonna, and other people that had what appeared to be a passing interest in sound quality employed it.

shack

04-15-2009, 04:52 PM

A great many arteests in the late 80's and 90's employed a recording technique called "Q" Sound. This was basically embedding a hologram onto the master tape, much like you could do at home with cassette or open reel and a C-9 Hologram Generator. Peter Gabriel, Madonna, and other people that had what appeared to be a passing interest in sound quality employed it.

http://www.qsound.com/spotlight/users/recording-artists.htm

I have several Qsound CDs. Interesting recordings.

bikezappa

04-15-2009, 05:07 PM

Compressed recordings are shit. If the music has lost the dynamic range because an engineer is told to make the music sound hot the artist is the loser. Don't buy the recording of any misic that has been compressed.

I listen to a lot of FM and especially live uncompressed FM music. I'm lucky to have this option of WGBH and WHRB in Boston. These broadcasts are wonderful and have a wide dynamic range. If I like music that is played on FM, I then consider buying the CD. Very seldom will I now buy a CD without hearing some part of it on FM. Remasters are the worst in many cases. Shit in, is shit out regardless of the equipment.

ckphoto

04-15-2009, 05:07 PM

Let me add one thing to this. I have paid an arm and a leg for remastered 180g or 200g vinyl that sounded very poor. Then I go to a garage sale and buy Willie Nelson's Songwriter for $0.25 and it blows my mind. I just do not get it...
Easter Sunday I went into my Mom's attic and pulled my parents old record collection there were a few Willie Nelson albums and the sound is just amazing.

markmarc

04-15-2009, 05:41 PM

Let's remember, there is by necessity compression in 99.9% of recordings. The issue becomes how much. Unfortunately, in the past 10 years the level of compression has increased dramatically to abusive levels. The worst offenders are usually new acts that are desperate to get noticed, so the engineer will crank up the volume to make the song sound "better" in mp3 format.

What is sad is that some of the most powerful artists, i.e. Bruce Springsteen, Lenny Kravitz to name two, have allowed this to happen on their recordings.

One can hope with the end of DRM, the move to larger files size online recordings will help to reverse this trend. But ultimately, it is up to the artists and the recording engineers to stand up against the industry suits and say ENOUGH!

cnh

04-15-2009, 08:14 PM

+1 on that, I agree above. On another note, since all that vinyl was 'mastered' on TAPE, wouldn't that source be 'superior' to Vinyl? As it is the first generation recording? Didn't people in the 60s and 70s actually run high end reel-to-reel equipment for the best quality sound? Or am I missing something?

cnh

mhardy6647

04-15-2009, 08:56 PM

yup and yup, respectively.
A first-generation or 'safety' copy of a master tape on a good deck is a pretty amazing thing to listen to.

... and, by the way... some of us still do (listen to R2R), y'know? :-)

renowilliams

04-15-2009, 09:43 PM

This is definately the most interesting thread I have read so far IMO. I have felt the same as many of you about inferior recordings. My sister has a habit of pulling out my parents old vinyl at christmas time and playing them on their old turntable. Last year she picked out a Nat King Cole album (don't remember which one) and it sounded great. I think it would have sounded great on any system. One thing I did notice was that those records were in immaculate condition. I bet they were only ever played a handful of times.
Man I gotta get a turntable and get some vinyl.

mhardy6647

04-15-2009, 10:08 PM

This is definately the most interesting thread I have read so far IMO.

hoo-boy, you need to get out more!

;-)

GV#27

04-15-2009, 10:15 PM

Man I gotta get a turntable and get some vinyl.Does your Yammy reciever have a phono input?I have a working Technics SLD2 collecting dust thats free to a good home.

renowilliams

04-16-2009, 12:12 PM

Does your Yammy reciever have a phono input?I have a working Technics SLD2 collecting dust thats free to a good home.

It sure does have phono in and thanks would love to take it and give it a good home. I see your in Ontario, how far from Peterborough?

renowilliams

04-16-2009, 12:31 PM

hoo-boy, you need to get out more!

;-)

Your absolutley right. Talk to my wife and get permission for me....lol

GV#27

04-16-2009, 04:10 PM

It sure does have phono in and thanks would love to take it and give it a good home. I see your in Ontario, how far from Peterborough?I will only charge for gas if you live north of Lansdowne st.;)I wiil try to give you a call later this evening.

powerestudio

04-16-2009, 04:34 PM

markmarc

04-16-2009, 06:25 PM

what about my questions ? :)

In the overall picture from my experiences, YES BUT. Mid bass and bass are quite good, but the Vifa tweeter is way too restricted by way of the x-over. This tends to make vocals and high frequencies instruments sound like they are about a third of an octave lower.
Will you enjoy them, hell yes! Is modification worthwhile? If you bought them used absolutely.