Tubes Still Rule.............

[reeltrouble1]

However,

The need for Power can be cruel.

Was it only 6 months ago that I was smiling down the corridors of this bunny hole? Dodging left or right to avoid the occasional snare, just enough light to see any big problems coming well in advance, hopping over them with a small tweak. Overall, life was pretty good, the sickness had lain more or less dormant or at least satisfied for over a year, the library of choices growing, yes, Life is Suck, but Sucking is a very dependant term.

I cannot really recall the exact time or even day the whispering started. Although faint, still undeniable and quite insatiable, to borrow from King "A Needfull Thing". The tale is long and this place is short with the long. So a step was taken which did bloom and all was still good Suck, but certainly different, at least the sine angle had changed, calling for another step into it where its liquid may be sweet bliss.

So the leap was trusted to a path not yet taken, darker here, with just enough light remaining to see the crumbs leading back, but there in front two doors. Each calling to be opened, would stepping through forever close the way back? And if so which to choose? One dark the other light. All in for this or for that?

I dunno. But the calling to find out burns both ways.

RT1

[zombie boy 2000]

Finally decided to go with Ice Power?

[Ricardo]

Ted, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Maybe if you try Spanish?

[heiney9]

Spanglish................maybe.

[dkg999]

I think I might even understand a small but important part of Ted's magnificantly worded post :cool: You can only get so much juice out of a bottle, and sometimes you just want more :)

[Ricardo]

I get it. All those words just to avoid openly recognizing that tubes really don't rule.;)

[reeltrouble1]

Set adrift between the seas of audio torture and torment, I now realize this all began with a gift of Rum from a brother on his own path's journey along with a worm from Azteca. I am only this because my brothers are that.

Well that along with a very comfortable new listening chair I snatched from Tweeter.

RT1

[heiney9]

Sounds like an enviable journey and resting spot

[dkg999]

So the "power" thing was just to throw me off course! Tubes and a new comfy chair, now that's audio nirvana :D

[reeltrouble1]

I get it. All those words just to avoid openly recognizing that tubes really don't rule.;)

Not exactly for what is upstream is in fact the essence of what is downstream, until such time as dilution tilts the whole thing causing the canoe to capsize.

Doug you are essentially correct in your initial assesment, Antony Michaelson may hold a key, but is it valuable metal or fools gold? Door #1.

RT1

[george daniel]

The force Ted,, feel the force within you,,don't give in to the darkside,,let the force be your guiding light,through the deep dark cavernous path,that awaits. May your feet always embrace solid ground.:)

[Lsi9]

Nicely written RT1, almost poetic but I am still on the fence about good SS vs. Tube, in other words what u talkin' bout willis?

[pearsall001]

Long live McIntosh!!! :)

[Zero]

Seek what is woven finely into the tapestry, for its the faint embers which illuminate the message with no words - the true passion that lay hidden within the silence and space of the moment. Nay too forthright or recluse, carved of glass to recreate the spirit of that moment. Without which, we become separated, detached, and lost, leaving the message absent from our senses.

*belches than scratches ass*

[Mike Reeter]

There is an awfull lota BS goin' on round here...tell me more

[GV#27]

Finally decided to go with Ice Power?Na,probably just one of these.


Antony Michaelson may hold a key http://www.musicdirect.com/product/80249

[treitz3]

I dunno. But the calling to find out burns both ways.Man, if I didn't know any better, I'd say it sounds like you are on some of the real good stuff that was available in the 70's. Decipher I must. If I read between the lines correctly, I feel the force on both sides of the fence. That's why I have an SS/tube hybrid rig and I'm building an all tube rig. Best of both worlds and now I will be able to enjoy what genre sounds best on whichever one sounds best.

Tubes do rule. :D

TREX, out.

[GV#27]

Na,probably just one of these.

Make that two.

[Ricardo]

Paypal also rules!!!!!!!!

[reeltrouble1]

WoW--Ricardo is totally speechless..........now that took some doing fella's.

hehehehehe

OK, so over the weekend I opened door #1, inside I found some very pleasent looking vertical mono-blocks, which as you very smart guys realized were the MFKw-550 supercharger, lets face it, nothing like 30 day trial periods. And Tom my fine young friend, what do you know about substances from the 70's??????????..........

I had always been suspect of these mono-blocks from the day they showed up on the cover of the audio mags, I believe there are no gimmicks in audio and tend to believe in big speakers, big power, big tubes, big sound, and most importantly proven audio methodology from proven audio companies, anyway, my first misgiving was the weight of 27lb each, not much for 550W claiming 250 amps pk to pk., but they would fit the bill of allowing the amplifier driving them (speaker level) to see a nice and easy 50k input. And yes although my BAT Tube amps are quite powerful this new Woodshed Rig is quite the challenge for any tube amps.

So what is important to understand is that in using the speaker level inputs on the MF550 you will not really be able to play your preamp at a higher gain setting, what they do is increase the headroom for transients by about 10db (which is good) they also bring out further micro-dynamics throughout the frequencies but I especially noted the bass and breath in the vocals within the range they operated in. Alas though, they are not up to the 2 ohm challenge the Sound Labs present and I was able to drive them into either protect mode through clipping or thermal shutdown on extended use. For the most part they could only take the Sound Labs to around 92db, although I did get them to briefly hit 104db on a hot track with a very powerful vocal before one went into thermal shutdown. However, I would say that if you are using efficient speakers that dont dip to 2 ohms for the 2500.00 bucks they are a steal, just not for me or better said not for this rig, I would like to keep them for another project, but one thing at a time. Just do not get this wrong they sounded very good and displayed excellent performance when used within their limits, they do run very hot, I am talking egg frying, bacon cooking, with hashbrowns hot. I could not keep my hand on top of them for more than 10 seconds after 30 minutes of use.

So then what next, well, the worst thing to do is panic, especially inside the rabbit hole as you will run hither and nither and lose your way entirely, go ask Alice, I may peek in on door #2 soon, but nothing with haste or the resultant waste, the road back continues to dim with moldy bread crumbs, the sickness, well, it whispers now, not pounding, but persistant, and it says.......feed me.

When all is said and done I will document this journey with some pics.

RT1

[Face]

Mac or Pass would laugh at 2 ohms and keep pushing till a dead short.

[reeltrouble1]

yes Mike, There are a great many SS options to go to, this was tried to see if I could keep the magic of the tube sound, so it worked, but not to the gain I want. Now 90 db in the Shed is loud and will make your Wood stand on end, but I want more. I suspect the 750kw supercharger would do the trick, but not worth 10 large to me.

RT1

[Ricardo]

Ted, read between the lines ;)

[heiney9]

Great info Ted, can't wait to hear more. Why did they run so hot? They aren't (to my knowledge) running heavily in class A. Perhaps it has something to do with the line-level config?

H9

[reeltrouble1]

They are AB, well, to start with I really dont think the heat sinks have enough area, but running in B for 20-30 minutes at power is a problem for their design. At least that is what I read.

linky http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/907mf/index4.html

RT1

[treitz3]

And Tom my fine young friend, what do you know about substances from the 70's??????????..........I know nothing, saw nothing and did nothing. Nobody saw it. You can't prove a thing.

Have you considered an autoformer?

[tonyb]

I know you can use those super chargers two different ways,all by their lonesome,or hooked up to your existing amp.Did you have the Bat's in line or do it as stand alone mono's ? Nothin' like raw juice to bring out your speakers capabilities eh.I've seen those on the 'gon as low as 2 g's and that's a friggin steal.Still got an eye out for that tri-vista 300 though.Guess I have to wait until Joe or Jessie gets hit by a turnip truck.;)

[F1nut]

Tom's idea is seriously worth looking into.


Tony, sorry I no longer own one.

[reeltrouble1]

Sooooooo,

Who has used an autoformer??

Tony--either line level or speaker level the 550K cannot handle the Sound Labs and go into shutdown they need more sensitive speakers.

RT1

[Hawkeye]

I initially had a MC352 with autoformers with ML Vantage. While I thought it was a good amp, it ran out of gas and on some peaks hit the power guard and everything would roll off. It did not matter which tap I used. I liked the 4 Ohm. I could reach 92 db for giggles but never stayed there too long. It never got hot, could always place my hand on the sinks.

The 501's are also on the 4 Ohm tap and you could almost chill your favorite drink on them. I've had them on for 5-6 hours at 80-85 db and they have never broken a sweat. This morning, after reading your posts, I was able to measure 96 db at my listening spot which is 11 ft from the front of the panel. I stopped there because it was too much for me. OK, I'm a wimp.

Spires dip to .7 Ohms and the autoformers handle them with ease. I would have thought that your panels would have dropped lower than 2 but you would know better than I since I'm not that familiar with Sound Labs.

From my readings, Pass, Sanders and if I recall Blue Circle make some very fine amps for ESL's.

I've seen the outboard autoformers but I've had no direct experience with them.

Gordon

[Face]

Sooooooo,

Who has used an autoformer??
Hmmm...tubes and autoformers.

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/images/products/mc2301-front_poweramps-l_rdax_782x400.jpg

[reeltrouble1]

kinda reminds me of Wall-E, but I will add it to the list.

I meant an outboard autoformer, which reminds of the autobots. Hooking all this stuff up seems like bad juju. More cords, more wire, more connections, uggg........so if someone has done it maybe they have a point of view.

RT1

[reeltrouble1]

now we're talking................Tubes Rule

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1239094187&/VTL-MB-1250-Wotan-giant-tube-m

say ooh la la, ooh la la

and I can heat the whole house if I cut a hole in the shed roof.

RT1

[heiney9]

Ted.................you have to have those!!!!!

[shack]

Tubes Still Rule........................

http://www.thetubes.com/disco/tubes.jpg

Wow! Didn't realize you were such a fan. They had a few nice cuts like "She's a Beauty", "Talk To Ya Later" and "White Punks on Dope"....

but to say They Rule...I dunno?

[reeltrouble1]

Nice Cover ShackDaddy.........wouldn't mind that lass scratching me in a few places.

So I guess nobody??? has ever used an outboard autoformer???, well I am not so sure about being Captain Kirk on this one.

RT1

[Face]

http://www.zeroimpedance.com/box.html

You're already 1/3 of the way to a amp with built in autoformers.

[reeltrouble1]

Well after some conversation with Victor Khomenko in whom I implicitly trust (well for audio) the outboard autoformer could be used however it would change the sound in unpredictable ways, therefore, I will not be Captain Kirk on this one. Kinda figured that one, gimmicks rarely work.

I believe I may just do nothing amp wise for a bit, use the BAT's which do sound oh so sweet at moderate levels and enjoy the music. The best course of action for me is to keep my beloved tubes for a future Rig with some Wilson Sophia's I just have to own and then purchase another beast SS from BAT for the Sound Labs.

After sometime has passed and the Sound Lab ESL new panels and electronic's are broken in I will put some thoughts up.

RT1

[george daniel]

You are so full of shit and yourself that your eyeballs float. I didn't know anyone could type and do the other thing at the same time. What an ass.

Who are you talking to/about? I know it can't be Ted, because you have obviuosly not heard his rig.Or,,did I misunderstand something?

[F1nut]

You are so full of shit and yourself that your eyeballs float. I didn't know anyone could type and do the other thing at the same time. What an ass.

Someone's ship just sunk. :rolleyes:

[Igo]

His rig and his ego probably cost the same money....to the penny.

[shack]

His rig and his ego probably cost the same money....to the penny.

You are out of line....

[dkg999]

Totally out of line!

At least his user name is appropriate for the situation ....... I Go

I need to go outside and see if there is a full moon.

[F1nut]

His rig and his ego probably cost the same money....to the penny.

Out of line and no longer welcome here.

[dkg999]

out of line and no longer welcome here.

+1000

[shack]

I have no idea what caused this personal attack. As I said it is totally out of line and unwarranted.

[dkg999]

I'm just guessing here, but maybe when he sobers up he'll regret this :confused:

[megasat16]

Perhaps, Drunken and Typin' ;)

Otherwise, why would you say such things? I am sorry but I failed to see any correlation to what you said in this thread. :o:confused:

[dudeinaroom]

Igo, <you do that

[Ricardo]

I am trying to make some sense out of Igo's post, But I can't. Less than three months here, obviously knows nothing about the forum or its members, and brings this uncalled attack on Ted, who has done nothing but help build what we have here.

Sad. I really hope Ted is in a good mood today.

[Face]

Someone obviously forgot their meds.

[treitz3]

Ted, I have read [but unfortunately not experienced] about the autoformer over at the ML forum. Many members there have high praise and many speak of it not changing the signal. Sorry I haven't gotten back with you sooner. It was just an idea that came to mind after reading your ramblings. I figured that it was worth a shot since this is what they have already located within many high $$$ amps that can do a hard to drive speaker justice.

Forgive me if it wasn't the best of ideas. I just thought that I would throw it out there at'cha.

[heiney9]

WOW.........somebody needs to get laid, big time!!

Igo if you have nothing constructive to say.......or coherent for that matter, STFU!

[tonyb]

WOW.........somebody needs to get laid, big time!!

Igo if you have nothing constructive to say.......or coherent for that matter, STFU!


Now...that is some damn good advice kid....Take it!

[SCompRacer]

the outboard autoformer could be used however...




Roger Sanders told me the same thing when I was going to try some on my Eros/tube amp combo. OTOH, a fellow that bought a pair of my Eros MK II's used them and said they worked swell. I went the SS amp route and never looked back.

[fredv]

I didn't know anyone could type and do the other thing at the same time.
Now I know .....


Sad. I really hope Ted is in a good mood today.
Ted has a much better manner.

[Zero]

Yep. Tubes DO rule.

I have a revised version of my favorite affordable tube amp in the digs.. a $950 E34L (not EL34) based integrated amp from Vista Audio. Man, I tell you, this little thing is killer. Its having zero problems hanging toe to toe with my McIntosh MA7000 integrated ($8000). Hell, it's not ashamed to share the same space with the mighty Karan KA I-180 ($10,500). It may not be as good, but it wasn't meant to be. Good shtuff I tell ya.

I always love gettin down to some good glass love.

[sucks2beme]

Big power, reasonable cost, cool running. Not the description
of a tube amp. You go glass, you are gonna half to make
some hard choices. Or budget big and get additional air conditioning
capacity. Or surrender to the sand.
I'm testing my options right now. 2nd choice in speakers with tubes,
or 1st choice in speakers with SS. Or I could tell son #2 to quit college
and join the Marines. That would cover those big AR tube monos!

[reeltrouble1]

What an ass.

Why Thank You. I owe it all to Buns of Steel, advanced second version.;)

Five more points for RT1 towards the Rooster Award.

Now then.

Back down inside the Rabbit Hole. The air conditioner is awesome in the Shed, it was the only place HI could stop his own personal water works during the Georgia Fest. So my bottles might be hot but the air is cool and the music flows. As Rich noted the SS can handle ELS loads and hold a key, there is tube power (Tubes Rule) that would work from others besides BAT but if I keep the pre and amp in the family the risk of an impedance abboration of sound is limited, their gear just has great synergy, too bad the MF 550 supercharger does not have the juice as they would of been a great solution. For now I will just keep the VK-120's and use them within their limits, still very sweet.

So I suppose its door #2, I have my eyes on something, nothing quite like sweet anticipation.

RT1

[dkg999]

But Ted, what's behind door #3 might be a better prize :D

[sucks2beme]

And do you have a hot blond to wave her hand towards
each of the available doors? That always helps with selection.

[reeltrouble1]

There are certain things and activities in the WoodShed about which it would be prudent to remain totally silent. Even I do not venture through certain twists down its rabbit hole corridors lest I totally lose my mind trapped in a room with Tour listening to D-lite on a tape loop.

RT1

[Ricardo]

I remember Bruce playing D-lite on my 1.2's when he was here picking up some amps. I bought one of their CD's after that. :o

Haven't seen him around lately.

[reeltrouble1]

Last report he was spotted on an uncharted Caribbean island located off the coast of the Dominican Republic. He was seen sipping a liquor on the beach with a straw through an umbrella filled glass served to him by topless native girls with breasts that tilt upward.

They call him poppa dadu itoto, which roughly translates into, unshaven man with hairy pits.

God Bless him, as a side note, D-lite sales have certainy dipped in the U.S.

RT1

[Mike21]

One: Tubes do rule for me even though I can't afford them anymore.:(
Two: I have never read language on any forum as inapproprate as Iago's.:eek:
Three: Someone posted a suggestion about getting laid - if I was 20 years younger, I would take that suggestion.;)
Four: In summary, tubes do rule if you like the tube sound. :p

Mike21

[hearingimpared]

Supercalifragilisticexpealidocious.

[reeltrouble1]

Good Morning Joe, watching TV again I see.

Dont worry about that guy, I got alligator like skin, the kind that scrapes you and leaves the wound septic so your arm rots off.

RT1

[hearingimpared]

The needle is in the haystack but does not prick at all.


Good afternoon Big Brother.

[shack]

Last report he was spotted on an uncharted Caribbean island located off the coast of the Dominican Republic. He was seen sipping a liquor on the beach with a straw through an umbrella filled glass served to him by topless native girls with breasts that tilt upward.

They call him poppa dadu itoto, which roughly translates into, unshaven man with hairy pits.


I NEVER thought there would be a day where I might say "I envy Bruce"...NO WAY IN HELL...NADA...NOT HAPPENING...

HOWEVER...if what you say is true...I may have to rethink my position...

[tonyb]

Supercalifragilisticexpealidocious.

....and Joe wins the spelling bee contest for the day:)

[hearingimpared]

It's simply spelled like it sounds.:D:p

[reeltrouble1]

I NEVER thought there would be a day where I might say "I envy Bruce"...NO WAY IN HELL...NADA...NOT HAPPENING...

HOWEVER...if what you say is true...I may have to rethink my position...

ShackDaddy,

The real story is how he ended up on the island.

RT1

[shack]

ShackDaddy,

The real story is how he ended up on the island.

RT1

I'm guessing he was sold on the black market as a BOY TOY SEX SLAVE...

But I could be wrong about that...

[hearingimpared]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[reeltrouble1]

well, it involves a rogue traveling Lousiana Carnival, the Mad Mouse rollercoaster ride, a hurricane and a female sea turtle, my understanding is Jack Sparrow has got nothing on this tale. Anyway the Carnie's are willing to pay for information about him, apparently he severly jilted the bearded lady and there was something about an illegal act performed in public with a wee man look-a-like.

BTW--for the record.

Tubes Rule.

RT1

[reeltrouble1]

so here are some shots of my most recent musical musing's so far in the Shed
with the Sound Lab Millenium ElectroStats and various combinations of power, the gear is listed in the signature.

the best sounding so far---no suprise but not really fair, the BAT Tube Amps into the MF Supercharger is excellent, the depth and texture of the soundstage and instruments did in fact take my breath away and make the hairs stand on end, so much so I have shaved my entire body.:D

On a scale of 100

The B&K Sand Amp did about 90%, the proverbial good for most hobbyiest sound you get with a quality amplifier and nice electronics decent speaker, this sound wets the appetite for those taking the full journey, however, this speaker demands more to reach its potential, The VK-120 Tube amps alone about 95% (entering magic territory) the big difference here is the 6C33C power tubes, suggest research on this tube for those interested, too say it sounds better is not it, you are now fully involved with the music, you will notice changes in yourself, you dont want to read anything, look at anything, simply let the sound wash over you, the VK-120 with the MF 550k SuperCharger 96% (diminishing return point sets in) but its the gates of sonic heaven, you might listen to a single perfectly pitched tone for hours and not get tired. This sound brought ole RT1 an emotional level of pure joy.

The way to move forward is with more refined power on this Rig, simply to allow transients meant to be heard over 100db (symphony levels) to play at full gain. Once this is achieved (100% is not really attainable) that is it, then it will be time to change the gear again. So I will search for power for now.

And a hole new path down the hole to explore.

Damm I love this stuff.

RT1

[redneck2009]

Anyone know where I can get some tubes for an old RCA radio I am trying to get working? This thing is about 4.5 feet tall made out of solid mahogany 3/4" thick and has a 18" speaker and a 6" speaker.

Bob

[Face]

Anyone know where I can get some tubes for an old RCA radio I am trying to get working? This thing is about 4.5 feet tall made out of solid mahogany 3/4" thick and has a 18" speaker and a 6" speaker.

Bob
These people may be able to help you.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16

[redneck2009]

Excellent link! Thank you very much. I know this thing is old and it still comes on and I get some static out of the speakers. I just put an external antennae on it and I am getting some sounds . The tubes are probably weak and maybe with new ones I can get it back to new again. I got it from dad and he got it from his dad. So I know it is very old. Thanks again.

Bob

[Face]

Excellent link! Thank you very much. I know this thing is old and it still comes on and I get some static out of the speakers. I just put an external antennae on it and I am getting some sounds . The tubes are probably weak and maybe with new ones I can get it back to new again. I got it from dad and he got it from his dad. So I know it is very old. Thanks again.

BobBe careful, if you have all original capacitors, it can be a fire hazard. I have a few old Philco radios and never plug in the units that haven't been serviced in the last 20 years.

[redneck2009]

Thanks I will unplug and get a repairman to check things out. I sure don't want to burn down the house.

Bob

[reeltrouble1]

what the hell is that incessant buzzing I am hearing around my tower....................

RT1

[hearingimpared]

so here are some shots of my most recent musical musing's so far in the Shed
with the Sound Lab Millenium ElectroStats and various combinations of power, the gear is listed in the signature.

the best sounding so far---no suprise but not really fair, the BAT Tube Amps into the MF Supercharger is excellent, the depth and texture of the soundstage and instruments did in fact take my breath away and make the hairs stand on end, so much so I have shaved my entire body.:D

On a scale of 100

The B&K Sand Amp did about 90%, the proverbial good for most hobbyiest sound you get with a quality amplifier and nice electronics decent speaker, this sound wets the appetite for those taking the full journey, however, this speaker demands more to reach its potential, The VK-120 Tube amps alone about 95% (entering magic territory) the big difference here is the 6C33C power tubes, suggest research on this tube for those interested, too say it sounds better is not it, you are now fully involved with the music, you will notice changes in yourself, you dont want to read anything, look at anything, simply let the sound wash over you, the VK-120 with the MF 550k SuperCharger 96% (diminishing return point sets in) but its the gates of sonic heaven, you might listen to a single perfectly pitched tone for hours and not get tired. This sound brought ole RT1 an emotional level of pure joy.

The way to move forward is with more refined power on this Rig, simply to allow transients meant to be heard over 100db (symphony levels) to play at full gain. Once this is achieved (100% is not really attainable) that is it, then it will be time to change the gear again. So I will search for power for now.

And a hole new path down the hole to explore.

Damm I love this stuff.

RT1

Excellent Big Brother! I can't wait for another trip to the Woodshed.

[Face]

what the hell is that incessant buzzing I am hearing around my tower....................

RT1I aways put one in the chamber when I hear something buzzing around the tower.

[reeltrouble1]

I am old school, mine uses two.

RT1

[tonyb]

Nice write up there RT.I might add that if your looking to move forward with good transients at 100 db's,you may have to move up to horns,but then,that opens a whole nutha can of worms for tube amps.How would you compare the new speaks to say,the Carvers?

[reeltrouble1]

Tony,

The Sound Labs are a pure acoustical line source, the clarity, detail and transparency of their di-pole pattern produced by a large mylar panel cannot be matched by the Amazings, the Carvers can dig deeper with their four woofers, however the SL do play down to 30hz. The SL is a more technically advanced speaker system, it is a bit more finicky than the Amazing, requires more power to operate, is more susceptable to humidity and environmental changes, it takes a bit to get the bias charge on the panel adjusted properly as it is a manual adjustment, of course speaker placement is crucial but that held true for the Amazing's as well. The Carvers had no trouble in the Shed hitting db levels over 100, however, I am finding that reducing the gain a bit has its own reward.

RT1