XLR versus "good" analog interconnects

[BlueFox]

Anyone have experience with comparing XLR connections versus a good analog interconnect with RCA connectors?

Specifically, would an inexpensive XLR be equal to or better than an analog interconnect?

Also, are expensive XLR cables better than inexpensive XLR cables, or is this case more like HDMI cables where any differance between inexpensive and expensive is negligible.

[Hawkeye]

I'll give it a shot, since I recently traveled this road!

XLR-RCA: I was using Mogami Gold XLR ICs @ 1 meter. They ran me about $35 X 4 at Guitar Center. I thought they were a solid performer across the whole spectrum. They do not emphasize any particular area, very quiet and were a great wire to use as a baseline. I then moved to Mapleshades Excalibur Ribbons with RCAs. About $250 used for 2 pair @ 1 meter. I really liked these wires. They brought a bit of body to the mids which was what I was looking for while not disturbing the top and bottom. Very fragile and unconventional looking but they are behind the rack and I don't see them!
My system is fully balanced and can utilize the XLR to it's full benefit. The XLR was much quieter than the RCA which almost sounded rounder and fuller. If I had to choose one, it would have been the Mapleshades RCA.

XLR-XLR: I've tried three different companies in three price levels. Mogami @ $70 per pair, Signal cable @ $100 per pair and WireWorld @ $700 per pair. The build quality on the 2 inexpensive wires was OK with minor defects and would suit me. The expensive wire is much larger and has more heft to it, there is no visible defect and one can tell that some time and effort went into the construction. The Mogami is a copper wire and the Signal and WireWorld are silver. After trying the Signals I was a little leary of trying another silver wire. Fortunately, my dealer is allowing me to try the silvers for a month. There is an obvious difference to me in the Signal and WireWorld. I'm not certain I'm going to remain with silver, but I will remain with WireWorld even if I step back to copper. So the big question is was the price difference worth it? I'd say it depends on if your system is capable of showing the difference and to me, the WireWorlds are getting my system closer to what I desire and the cost was worth it.

Gordon

[hearingimpared]

Very nice write up Gordon.

[Ricardo]

I think the biggest difference is not in the cables, but in how your components perform as balanced/single ended, and if they are truly fully balanced. Normally components that are fully balanced will have different gain, different input impedance, and even work different internally when used as SE or balanced. This will have a greater impact on how they sound, than the cables you use in either configuration.

[heiney9]

Also to add to Ricardo's statement, some equipment is designed to run balanced and the single ended RCA connections are after thoughts to accommodate users who aren't capable of being fully balanced. Somewhere in the owners manual it should state this.

Many fully balanced designs have a slight performance loss when run un-balanced. These are usually your higher end equipment manufacturer's. Again if that's the case the manufacturer will usually mention it in their literature.

H9

[reeltrouble1]

A wise man once said Balanced trumps Unbalanced.

Blue I would get some decent Analog XLR cables, your best bet is to see if your gear has a fully balanced circuit, which would certainly seal the deal as to what you should do.

RT1

[heiney9]

Also keep in mind to get the full benefit, every component in the chain all the way to your speakers needs to be a fully balanced design.

H9

[Hawkeye]

Ricardo, I'm not putting words in your mouth but are you saying it is comparing apples to oranges? If not, sorry :D

I think comparing RCA to XLR is an apple to orange comparison. Different circuits being used for each will effect the sound to some degree. On the other hand, XLR to XLR is an apple to apple comparison, which in my case exhibited remarkable differences.

Gordon

[heiney9]

Ricardo, I'm not putting words in your mouth but are you saying it is comparing apples to oranges? If not, sorry :D

I think comparing RCA to XLR is an apple to orange comparison. Different circuits being used for each will effect the sound to some degree. On the other hand, XLR to XLR is an apple to apple comparison, which in my case exhibited remarkable differences.

Gordon

Except in the cases where XLR connections are offered but the component in question isn't a truely balanced design.......in that case RCA vs. XLR really goes out the window. No more apples to apples

Some lesser components are not truly balanced, but in order to offer XLR connections the 2 halves of the circuit are simply bridged.....not a true balanced config and really inferior to fully balanced topology.

H9

[Ricardo]

Right; RCA to XLR = Apples to Bananas (Didn't like your choice of words :D)

[Hawkeye]

H9, Yea, I guess I should have clearer on that.

Gordon

[BlueFox]

Also keep in mind to get the full benefit, every component in the chain all the way to your speakers needs to be a fully balanced design.

The balanced components I have are Benchmark Dac1 (in and out), Cambridge-Audio 840E preamp (in/out), two Cambridge-Audio 840W amps, and, on order, Sony 5400ES SACD player.

Currently I have moderately priced, around $100, XLRs between the Benchmark, 840E, 840W, and I was wondering if it would be worthwhile to go to expensive XLR, or buy Mapleshade analog ICs instead. I have a Mapeshade digital cable and speaker wire that really made a big differance in sound. Plus I love their unconventional approach to wire design.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Hawkeye]

BlueFox, Do you want to try the MS Excalibur RCAs before you buy them? I've 2 sets lying here and if your interested let me know. I'm not attempting to sell them to you, just offering them as a trial.

Gordon

[reeltrouble1]

This thread is going Banana's.

Apples Oranges and Pinapples as well.

Certainly enough fruit to bake a PIE

RT1

[TECHNOKID]

Anyone have experience with comparing XLR connections versus a good analog interconnect with RCA connectors? So what you are comparing is BALANCED versus UNBALANCED signal(s). XLR cabling is mainly used in the proffessional field. IE: we do conferences, meetings Interpretation systems, videoconferencing, webcasting... all of this must used XLR connections (balanced signals)...

Musicians also have requirement for such. The balance signal will compare the 2 signals electronically and trash unwanted noises. In order to be efficient, both INPUT(S) and OUTPUT(S) must be balanced (XLR) connections. If not, you are not achieving the end result. Therefore, are you personal speakers balanced or simply line level? Most of our home speakers are line level therefore UNBALANCED therefore, don't waiste the money!

However, some Home High End receivers and associated gear uses XLR/Balanced connections... If you can afford the gear, you can afford the connection ALL the way fro input to OUTPUT (speakers) the go for it!

Common use of XLR connections: Microphones through mixers out through balanced Powered Speakers... Musicians equipment will tie to mixing console and compressor(s) etc... etc... through balance XLR connections... Anything that is using line level (guitar or other electric equipments) will be interfaced through mixers, consoles in order to provide XLR/Balanced output.

Proffessional concerts will use such connections. Again, unless you have HIGH END GEAR and associated components, it is not viable/worthwhile using XLR connections. Also a fact, if you are providing audio signals through players, this balance connection is not as critical as microphones or any external devices that can pick-up external noise/sound.

As an example, I am concerned when using microphones but when simply playing music for our Xmas party, NO problem what so ever. However, I find that computers will be much better if I use a DI box which will convert the computer line level into balanced/XLR as otherwise I will pick-up noises.

Below, is a Polk discussion on the subject (2006). I haven't read it entirely but for what I've seen, seems to make sense.


http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-42977.html

Sorry for a scruffy post but just tried to explain best as possible but not that obvious!

Cheers :)

[heiney9]

If it makes no difference and is a waste in home audio please explain why designers like Nelson Pass (Pass Labs); BAT; Monarchy Audio; Classe; Threshold; Krell, Marsh, etc, etc, all state that for best performance (not lowest noise) use the balanced connections.

[Ricardo]

Therefore, are you personal speakers balanced or simply line level? Most of our home speakers are line level therefore UNBALANCED therefore, don't waiste the money!

Balanced or line level speakers? maybe you are talking about powered speakers? Most home speakers are passive, so the benefit of the balanced systems ends at the amplifier. Right?

[SolidSqual]

Wireworld makes excellent stuff!

[BlueFox]

Musicians also have requirement for such. The balance signal will compare the 2 signals electronically and trash unwanted noises. In order to be efficient, both INPUT(S) and OUTPUT(S) must be balanced (XLR) connections. If not, you are not achieving the end result. Therefore, are you personal speakers balanced or simply line level? Most of our home speakers are line level therefore UNBALANCED therefore, don't waiste the money!


So, you are saying that if you do not have balanced speakers then the XLR connections between components is not helpful?

Do balanced speakers also accept XLR connections? My amp has XLR outputs labeled "Loop outputs". Does that connect to a balanced speaker?


http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CA840W

[reeltrouble1]

thanks for stopping by and straightening us out TechnoKid, not sure where we would be without you.

RT1

[TECHNOKID]

Sorry for a scruffy post but just tried to explain best as possible but not that obvious!As pointed out above scruffy post! I wanted to chip in and being in a rush to leave that is the way in came out... not too hot!


If it makes no difference and is a waste in home audio please explain As I pointed out, quality of gear has to be there: Receivers, amplifiers speakers etc... IE: Compare to most people on this site, I have the "BABY stuff" Polk RM20 5-pack, surroundBar and my max is RM30 :o and a Yamaha receiver This is Polk gear and Yamaha, I consider good but I realize it would be silly to spend good money on XLR cables for such a set-up as it is simply entry level... This was my budget for gear at this point so of course out of question to go with cables that are made for higher end gear. Now, if we speak about some of the speakers some of you own (I looked at the Polk album) which are probably worth more than my humble gear above mentioned, NAD, ARCAM, Emotiva etc... then, we are talking about gear that is worht the PRO cabling.


Balanced or line level speakers? maybe you are talking about powered speakers? Most home speakers are passive, so the benefit of the balanced systems ends at the amplifier. Right? Right, as pointed out rushing a post and matter of fact most of the speakers we use are Powered therefore with built in amplifier. So, I stand corrected: mixing console (pre) to built in speakers which amp and speaker connected. So, in the situation of HT or stereo listening; Quality/High end gear: HT receiver (pre-out) => HIGH current amp => Polk speaker. I humbly stand corrected! Would you still allow me in (chip in, participate, learn, provide and worse make honest mistake in expressing my self!) Pleassse! I'm at home and little more relax. Since I basically been away from the home gear for a few years and basically see rental gear, I tend to think with what I work with but getting involved in forum helps me get back to the pace of today's technology. Still, the original goal was honest.

HA! this is another one: Cambridge is a good example; this simple amp alone is worth roughly the price of of ALL my speakers together!

Cheers :)

[TECHNOKID]

Here is some I was trying to explain when mentionning I/P and O/P has to be both balanced otherwise even if O/P is balanced while I/P isn't then, it could well be garbage in and even if O/P cctry is better quality, what went in as GARBAGE must come out as GARBAGE.

Allow me to use the rental gear to give some examples:

If I take the output of a laptop computer (or electric guitar etc...) and feed it straight (unbalanced 2 wires as it comes out of the computer or instrument) and feed it into a mixing console, I will have problems, potential noise (impedance mis-match) and my level (which is another thing) will be too high for the mixer. At times, there could be ground loop problem also. If I take the same signal and feed it into a DI BOX
A direct box is used to connect an electric instrument to a balanced XLR mic input, not a line input. That's because most direct boxes reduce the level of the input signal when they convert the signal from high-Z unbalanced to low-Z balanced. ( http://www.crownaudio.com/kb/entry/304/ ) which will isolate the line level and do the impedance matching and thus the good I/P will now provide GOOD XLR (balanced) pre-out of the the mixer which in turn will provide XLR (balanced) connections to the balanced amplifier.

Now, if we compare this to our home gear, an example of level I/P problem could be setting up a turn table and CD for example in the wrong I/P would create problem since the TT old technology doesn't have the same level as the newer gear (TD, CD, DVD etc...). Now, all of them are unbalanced signal and like the mixer, our HT receiver will provide built in matching impedance and levels.

Now, another area where I failed to explain properly, is the balance pre-out to the amplifier (not the speaker :o ): The mixing console again is balanced going to my amp otherwise, it will cause a problem (noise etc...) As example, I was providing a known/proven GOOD voice signal for webcasting purpose. A soon as the IT technician plug to his equipment, he came to me and complained of having a bad and noisy signal. I knew my signal was good therefore, I asked him where he was plugged in and how. He turned my XLR connection into 2 RCA connectors to connect to is gear. I told him this was the problem since the signal wasn't balanced anymore. He then interface with his own small mixer and of course it solved the problem.

Now, let's do similar with our home gear. I am providing you with my entry level Yamaha receiver to connect to your nice HIGH END balanced amplifier. We try to connect my RCA pre-out (unbalanced) to your balanced I/P of your amplifier guess what, I create a problem similar to the above mixer => webcasting. In order to get this set-up working properly, we must interface my unbalanced entry level receiver with your HIGH END balanced amplifier. Of course we will be able to make it work but it isn't the best conditions. The best conditions would be to use gear of similar quality and properties (balanced). I hope this isn't all goofed-up again but ratter makes sense as this is what I was trying to explain while stumbling.

Cheers :)

[mantis]

Whats cool about balanced is that different brands and higher end cables don't make as much as difference like single ended. It's so hard to hear differences in balanced where as single ended sound very different.

I have compared high end single ended to balanced and the balanced sounded more consistant. If you use higher end single ended and lower end balanced, I perfer the balanced cables as they tend to have a lower noise floor and a silence about them that the single ended cables do not have.

If you can go balanced, go balanced. It's a better way to go. I was not a beleiver until I did it for myself.

Dan

[TECHNOKID]

I think the biggest difference is not in the cables, but in how your components perform as balanced/single ended, and if they are truly fully balanced. Normally components that are fully balanced will have different gain, different input impedance, and even work different internally when used as SE or balanced. This will have a greater impact on how they sound, than the cables you use in either configuration.I wish I could originally have a simple but concise explanation like this. I fully agree with your post.

BlueFox nails it in his comment:


Also, are expensive XLR cables better than inexpensive XLR cables, or is this case more like HDMI cables where any differance between inexpensive and expensive is negligible. You don't want to use $$ store cable but you do not need to use MON$$TER priced cables! Again, as tests has proven for shorter distances with HDMI cables, the same applies with XLR cables.

[mwaarna]

I recently upgraded to a New EQ Cinenova Amplifier...

I am using my old Blue Jean Cable RCA's(20 bucks a pop) to connect to my Onkyo 885.

I have XLR Ouputs on the pre-amp and now I have XLR inputs on the amplifier...

It was mentioned that the quality of XLR cables will not make that big of a difference...

Blue Jeans has XLR cables for about 30 bucks for a 4ft cable..

Where else do you guys suggest to look at to purchase XLR Cables?

Monoprice has some cheap XLR cables, but its odd I did not see Male to Male Cables...

[Barefoot]

My balanced signal cbl II's perform great. As for balanced vs unbalanced, I can't hear that much of a difference. But since the NAD gives me that option, I might as well take advantage.

[Face]

I would not recommend Monoprice interconnects. I found them very veiled.

[reeltrouble1]

balanced trumps unbalanced, everytime.

RT1

[Face]

Usually I'd agree, but not when comparing a mediocre unbalanced cable to a pos balanced cable.

[reeltrouble1]

meant for the yak faceman, yak crap, don't talk back, there is a rap in there somewhere. shame is some unsuspected soul steps in it.

OK single ended trumps a broken balanced cable.

Tubes Rule.

RT1

[mwaarna]

I would not recommend Monoprice interconnects. I found them very veiled.

How would you Rate Blue Jean Cable XLR interconnects?
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/balancedaudio/index.htm

BJC cables are about 5x more expensive VS the monoprice cables...

I was mistaken in my post above, after looking at pictures of the back of my pre-amp it has binding posts for female connections(i was looking at the 2 channel earlier...)

My Onkyo Rear End:
http://www.avmagazine.it/immagini/onkyo1_21_07_08.jpg
Cinenova Rear End:
http://www.earthquakesound.com/IMAGEJP/HOME/AMPLIFIERS/5CHANN~1/new_b.gif

[Face]

I only have experience with BJC and Monoprice single ended cables. BJC are good cables for the money and wouldn't hesitate to choose their analog cables over Monoprice.

[TECHNOKID]

Where else do you guys suggest to look at to purchase XLR Cables?
Digiflex is a good brand, most of our short cables and tailored made cables are from them. Not too expensive and they have 10 years warranty! I am convinced they must be providers in the US.

http://www.digiflexcables.com/EN/series.htm

RockCable is also a good brand at affordable pricing!

http://www.rock-cable.com/

I found the best way to make sure th cable is of good quality, I look for a good flexible rubber cable and the connector is of most importance such like neutrik etc... When possible, I like to open the connector and look at the quality of the soldering.

[Ricardo]

Monoprice has some cheap XLR cables, but its odd I did not see Male to Male Cables...

Why do you need male to male? As far as I know, outputs require male and inputs require female (or the other way around...too lazy to go look).

[Hawkeye]

Looking at the links you provided, you need a male/female XLR. I used Mogami Gold Neutric XLR available at The Guitar Center for about $35 each. Not the best in the world, but not the worst either.

Gordon

[BlueFox]

I started this thread wondering if the 1 meter Kimber Kable "Hero" XLR cables I had previously purchased for my new SACD player would be a waste of money. According to UPS, the SACD player is due to arrive 2/27, and I cannot wait to hook it up with the XLRs and find out. Yabba Dabba Do!!!!

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=KKHEBAL

[mwaarna]

Why do you need male to male? As far as I know, outputs require male and inputs require female (or the other way around...too lazy to go look).



I was mistaken in my post above, after looking at pictures of the back of my pre-amp it has binding posts for female connections(i was looking at the 2 channel earlier...)


When i looked at the back of my pre-amp I first saw the 2 XLR Inputs on the far left....
http://www.avmagazine.it/immagini/onkyo1_21_07_08.jpg

But any way.. I am debating on swapping to XLR cables....

[heiney9]

Hate to break it to you...............but the pre-outs for your receiver to be used as a pre amp are RCA not XLR............so it's a moot point.

[Hawkeye]

H9, I must need new bifocals! Those XLRs must be outs to amps or do I need trifocals?

Gordon

[heiney9]

H9, I must need new bifocals! Those XLRs must be outs to amps or do I need trifocals?

Gordon

Perhaps I'm the one that needs them........I admit I am not well versed with HT receivers and the plethora of input/outputs. I didn't see XLR outs to amps, but then again I'm going just by the photo and the small writing is hard to read.

I'm a 2 channel guy and all those connections on the HT receiver make me dizzy :p.

H9

[Ricardo]

The 8 right most balanced connections are pre-outs (as it reads :))

[BlueFox]

Okay. UPS just delivered the SACD player. I sure hope it works!!! It looks and feels solid, and weighs 23 lbs. Tonight I have give this thing a 1, maybe 2, bottle of good wine checkout/review. It sure is nice getting this on a Friday that I have off.

One thing I do want to do is compare the XLR output of a regular CD straight to the pre-amp versus the digital output to the Dac1 then to the pre-amp. This should be a simple A/B comparison using the remote for the pre-amp and SACD/CD player.

[mwaarna]

Okay. UPS just delivered the SACD player. I sure hope it works!!! It looks and feels solid, and weighs 23 lbs. Tonight I have give this thing a 1, maybe 2, bottle of good wine checkout/review. It sure is nice getting this on a Friday that I have off.

One thing I do want to do is compare the XLR output of a regular CD straight to the pre-amp versus the digital output to the Dac1 then to the pre-amp. This should be a simple A/B comparison using the remote for the pre-amp and SACD/CD player.

Ever do the comparison?

I am still on the fence whether I should swap to XLR or not...

[BlueFox]

Ever do the comparison?

I am still on the fence whether I should swap to XLR or not...

For SACD, the XLRs are great. There is zero noise between tracks, or in quiet passages, and the SACDs sound great. However, the Dac1 still wins for regular CDs. While CDs do not sound bad, the Dac1 audio is smoother, for lack of a better word.

[LarryK]

To add more fuel to the fire... I guess it goes without saying, if you have an underpowered Denon receiver with LSi series (15's) using RCA I/C then you go to (let's say) MAC seperates (monoblock, multi-channel, proc) with mid priced balanced from start to finish the 15's will come alive for the first time in their lives. Right? Or is that overkill?

[LarryK]

To add more fuel to the fire... I guess it goes without saying, if you have an underpowered Denon receiver with LSi series (15's) using RCA I/C then you go to (let's say) MAC seperates (monoblock, multi-channel, proc) with mid priced balanced from start to finish the 15's will come alive for the first time in their lives. Right? Or is that overkill?

[Hawkeye]

To add more fuel to the fire... I guess it goes without saying, if you have an underpowered Denon receiver with LSi series (15's) using RCA I/C then you go to (let's say) MAC seperates (monoblock, multi-channel, proc) with mid priced balanced from start to finish the 15's will come alive for the first time in their lives. Right? Or is that overkill?

Hi Larry, No such thing as over kill! I firmly believe that most, not all, people give up on speakers before they pushed them to their limits with front end gear. Frankly, I'd love to hear some 15's hooked up to my rig.

I've just finished using a fairly higher end balanced silver IC. They ran $1400 for 4 1 meter XLR cables. They stank! So just because they are expensive does not make them the best. I put my cheap Mogami $35 pieces back in while I await a copper wire from my dealer. These Mogami wires would not even be considered mid fi and they are some wonderful pieces which I use as my baseline reference. The new copper wires from my dealer will be 1K for the 4 and I do not have high expectations.

Gordon

[mantis]

Go balanced or go home.

Dan

[megasat16]

I have balanced amps and preamp in the past (rotel stuff) as well as single ended amps and preamps from many makers. I don't know rotel stuff are truly fully balanced or not. In my rig, I don't hear any difference but my speakers are not that efficient. I think the balance stuff will speak for itself when it comes to power the more efficient speakers above 94db or more. For now, I am happy with my single ended stuff.

[comfortablycurt]

Would there be any real benefit to using balanced cables in a HT setup? A lot of pre-pro's and multi-ch. power amps have the option of using balanced cables.

From everything I've read though, in order to really receive the benefits of them, every component in the chain must be balanced. I've yet to see a DVD/Blu-ray player, or a multi-ch. SACD player with balanced outputs for each channel.

The benefits would be had by using a balanced digital out I'd imagine...but the majority of players don't even offer that option.

Plus, with Blu-ray, in order to get the lossless soundtracks, you have to use HDMI. Are HDMI cables considered balanced, or does that negate the affects of using balanced cables in between the pre-pro/power amp?

[Hawkeye]

I can't answer your question about balanced in HT, it is not my thing. I did find that unless ALL of the components are balanced from from to rear, I found a better sound from my gear using RCA as a "tone" control. Now that my system is totally balanced, cables are still a tone control but the added benefit of a lower noise floor and superb channel seperation trumps the tone control.

Unfortunately, I believe a lot of manufacturers are giving the option of using an XLR wire without having a true balanced configuration.

Gordon

[disneyjoe7]

Interesting subject here, as I own Parasound's Halo A23 amps which can be balanced or not input. I used them as not, ok so is this amp like balance input or not? On my short list a Cary SLP-98L or 98P pre amp it doesn't do balance output. So even if you have this pre amp I can't due balance cables, so why doesn't a high level pre amp do balance out? Is it worth it?

[megasat16]

I doubt a lot of high end gears (transport, DAC, Pre, amp, etc.) don't have balance outputs and don't need to have balance outputs because a good single ended design will yield very low noise floor with very high SNR + THD to even consider using balance outputs.

For instance, Bob Carver amps have THD+N is 0.5% and it's the highest I've seen for any amps. Most people will not hear THD+N up to 1% so single ended designs works fine for most people even for high end gears. But for Pro Audio, it's different. Balancing signal with ground is preferrable for many reasons. Pro Audio uses a lot higher voltage rating and balance cables are better suited for longer length and noise rejection. The connectors for balance cables are designed to withstand abuse and for long term reliability.

For home audio, where outputs from preamps, DAC or CD players are in the region of 1-2V RMS and cables are usually run for short distances such as 1M or so, the many advantages offer by the balance technology doesn't seem to apply much. Besides, you need to have truly balance design in each components and you need to have all components to have true balance inputs and outputs to take advantage of such gears.

[megasat16]

Would there be any real benefit to using balanced cables in a HT setup? A lot of pre-pro's and multi-ch. power amps have the option of using balanced cables.

From everything I've read though, in order to really receive the benefits of them, every component in the chain must be balanced. I've yet to see a DVD/Blu-ray player, or a multi-ch. SACD player with balanced outputs for each channel.

The benefits would be had by using a balanced digital out I'd imagine...but the majority of players don't even offer that option.

Plus, with Blu-ray, in order to get the lossless soundtracks, you have to use HDMI. Are HDMI cables considered balanced, or does that negate the affects of using balanced cables in between the pre-pro/power amp?

I don't think you'll get a real advantage in using balance inputs and outputs for HT. I've tried that with Adcom and Rotel stuff and I don't see any real advantages except they are a little bit quieter when using balance outputs for rotel or adcom but they needs to crank more volume to reach a certain SPL when RCA connections can reach an equal SPL with less cranking in the volume.

I also found out with other better amps and preamps, they are just as quiet and even more quieter than balance design in the Rotel and Adcom equipments. So, for me, no real advantages for HT gears.

But for music, balance may be a little better with Rotel and Adcom gears but well, there are other good single ended stuff that far surpass rotel and adcom balance designs.

One more thing - balance is usually associated with Analog part of Audio and not with Digital part of audio. For Digital outputs, there is no balancing in the design. I haven't read the white paper for the HDMI pin assignment but I doubt it's balance design also. It might be differential signal design for high speed data transfer but it's not the same design or principles as balance circuits in the analog audio.

[disneyjoe7]

Gee I don't know Parasound Halo A23 cost about $900 new, a Cary SLP-98P pre amp cost about $4000 new. The Halo A23 as balance input the Cary SLP-98P doesn't, must home equipment does do balance. Now on the other hand must pro equipment amps, and pre amps have balance inputs / outputs. Balance is better when equipment is many feet between each other, but is it really needed in home, and if it is really needed why most home equipment doesn't have it?

[megasat16]

Well, the older stuff (high end or not) doesn't have balance outputs or inputs. But the balance trends started in the late 90s and I guess it's a way for manufacturer to make more money on the same stuff. :D

Do you need balance for home audio? NO!

Do you want balance feature? Yes, why not if it comes free with your purchase. It's even better if it comes with both balance connectors and RCA connectors (most do).

What happened if it's not truly balanced design? Well, you don't get to hear the benefits of true balance design but again, if your speakers are 90db or less efficient, you'll not very likely to hear any good advantages of the true balance design either.

Audiophiles and alike said True Balance is the way to go? Yeah, may be. So, if they have their hearing checked and they can hear 0.1THD, they may hear the difference. :D

[Hawkeye]

As one gentleman here says, "tubes rule" which I agree to a point, I must say a completely balanced system "rules". The only thing better is is tubes and balanced.

Gordon

[mwaarna]

SO I think I will make the switch to XLR cables..

Sold my Outlaw Audio amp today...

I am looking to Order the BJC XLR cables...

Which cables from BJC should I get, since they offer two different types of XLR Cables..

Belden 1800F Balanced Audio Cable
(AES/EBU, low-capacitance, high-flex cable)
NOTE: pricing is per cable; if you need pairs, you must order two.

Canare L-4E6S Star Quad Balanced Audio Cable
(Higher noise rejection, but with higher capacitance)
NOTE: pricing is per cable; if you need pairs, you must order two.

Canare cables are about 4 dollars more per cable..

[disneyjoe7]

I'm a fan of Belden wire, so I think that's the way I would go.

[mwaarna]

I have a SVS Subwoofer... which does not have an XLR Input..

I need to get a XRL to RCA converter..

Where do you guys recommend I get one of those?

I want to use the same output for all my speakers, so the Line Level out is using the same levels...

[mwaarna]

Ended Up ordering Belden Cables:

8 foot Belden 1800F Balanced Audio Cable
Item# ,
Connectors: XLR Male/XLR Female
Each $32.75 USD 5
Total $163.75 USD

[disneyjoe7]

I think you will be pleased with them, and down the road if you choose to change them out you should get a fair price for them.

[gzm51]

Hello,
I am trying to connect a Behringer UB802 mixer to a Kenwood KR7060 A/V receiver. I have connected cables from the mixer main out to the receiver Pre-out, but no luck. Have also tried the video in as well as tape play in to no avail. Nothing labeled "audio in" is available on the back of the receiver. Have confirmed the cables are good. The receiver works just fine otherwise. Any suggestions? Thanks for your help.

[txcoastal1]

Also keep in mind to get the full benefit, every component in the chain all the way to your speakers needs to be a fully balanced design.

H9

Understand all except "all the way to your speakers"....how do you get balanced speaker connection....just a question or is it component related

Thanks Ron

[BlueFox]

Also, are expensive XLR cables better than inexpensive XLR cables, or is this case more like HDMI cables where any differance between inexpensive and expensive is negligible.

Thanks for dragging this thread up from the past. After the experience in cables I have had over the last year, I can answer my own question. Without a doubt, at least for me, the expensive XLR cables beat the less expensive XLRs cables. This was a hands-down, knockout victory.

I had Kimber Kable Hero XLR ICs between all my gear, and replaced them with MIT Shotgun S1.3 balanced ICs. What a difference. While I thought everything was fine with the Kimbers, the MITs really opened my ears. The soundstage expanded in front of me with a wider presentation. Additionally, the imaging became even more precise, along with a quieter background, and overall sound quality improvement. This was not a subtle change as I was very familiar with the Kimber sound. After switching the cables, the difference was very apparent.

However, I have no idea how the balanced MITs would fare against their RCA sisters.