Framing out an Audio Room ?

[Lasareath]

Hello All,

In May I will start my New Audio room.

I was going to use two layers of sheet-rock with a layer of Green Glue between them.

But then last night I was thinking about my wall treatments and how they have little clips that get screwed into the wall. In my old Apartment it was Lat & Plaster, so if I used 2" screws I had a 95% chance of hitting wood and getting a good grip.

But in the new house I'm just going to have two layers of Sheet-Rock.

Would it be Bad if I did one layer in 3/4" Plywood and then the Green Glue and then 5/8" Sheet-Rock?

With this set up anything I hang on the walls will be very secure.

What do you guys think?

Sal

[george daniel]

I'm no carpenter,, more a nail driver,, it sounds pretty solid,, but would'nt two thicknesses of sheetrock be good enough? Matbe put the studs on 12-14 inch centers?

[Lasareath]

I'm no carpenter,, more a nail driver,, it sounds pretty solid,, but wouldn't two thicknesses of sheetrock be good enough? maybe put the studs on 12-14 inch centers?


I was actually thinking about doing 8" centers because I'm crazy like that.

[george daniel]

I was actually thinking about doing 8" centers because I'm crazy like that.


gonna be alot of studs,, are you using 2x4 or 2x6?

reason I ask,, I finished an upstairs, with 2x6 studs,,insulated, and the 7/8 sheetrock,IIRC, and it was solid.

[Face]

Those panels are light, you can get away with heavy duty picture frame hardware which consists of a small nail or two and a clip.

[tryrrthg]

drywall anchors like this will hold close to 100 pounds or more. I just saw it on DIY network last night

http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/inffastener/i/zipit1.jpg

http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/inffastener/infanchor/infanchor.html

[tcrossma]

Find a stud or use wall anchors. I think doing the whole room in plywood would be overkill, plus it would cause you future hassles if you decide you need to punch a hole in the wall, such as to add another plug or something -- much easier with just sheetrock. I suppose you could add a small sheet of plywood behind the areas you think you will need to hang your wall treatments, but it's really not necessary.

[janmike]

I use one of these for all home projects. Works for me.

Features

* Four-in-one tool contains laser level, estimator, stud finder and AC wire detector
* Hand held unit conveniently fits in your hands, eliminating the need for multiple tools
* Laser level rotates for multiple angles
* Comes with wall mounting bracket and 9V battery

[Ricardo]

drywall anchors like this will hold close to 100 pounds or more. I just saw it on DIY network last night

http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/inffastener/i/zipit1.jpg

http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/inffastener/infanchor/infanchor.html

That's what I use to hang the acoustic panels in my room (I have two 1/2" sheetrock with green glue). You won't need anything else.

[obieone]

If $$$ is no object, then do what AS did:eek::D

http://showroom.acousticsounds.com/

[disneyjoe7]

Sal, I guess going from lat & plaster to drywall walls is a bit scary at first. But drywall is stronger then it seems in hanging things, but some items like TVs need a stud behind them. I wouldn't add the plywood behind the drywall as any sound deadening would be lost. Also you don't need anything under a 16" center wall you could get away with 24" centers if you wish.

[Lasareath]

Thanks all for the suggestions.

Maybe a will notch out a groove 12" by 1/2" out of all the studs at the top and the bottom and insert some 12" strips of plywood, then wherever I screw in the mount it will grab plywood.

I gotta see how much time I have, I want to have my room ready for my Birthday Party on June 13th.

Sal

[John30_30]

8" centers is insane. If it was a good idea, it would be standard. Why are you doubling up the sheetrock in the 1st place? Sound-deadening? I'd use a layer of foam insulation under the drywall instead. And what are you going to hang from the wall?
Drywall is basically chalk- you don't want any load depending on it. Otoh, the studs holding it up are capable of holding a house up, so they'll carry whatever load you attach as long as you do it right. I wouldn't go with 1/2" plywood bracing just because 1/2" isn't as good as 3/4", but I don't know what you intend to hang from it.

[Retro152]

This is my Profession. Just frame the room standard 16 oc. You can add solid blocking in between the studs horizontally with 2x6, or even 2x8. Just make sure to document your layout with pictures, or a drawing before you close in everything for easy reference later. Woudnt advise skinning the room with plywood.


Pat.

[nadams]

Don't notch the studs, either. You're destroying the structural integrity of the wall. Albeit, it's not a load bearing wall, but you will want it as strong as possible to avoid vibrations.

Double drywall sounds like one heck of a hassle... With my luck, every screw I'd drive in on the 2nd sheet would hit one on the first sheet.

If I had unlimited budget, I'd score myself some QuietRock, and also use sound-deadening insulation all the way through.

[Lasareath]

Why are you doubling up the sheetrock in the 1st place? Sound-deadening?


Last picture in this post: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=617771&postcount=44




This is my Profession. Just frame the room standard 16 oc. You can add solid blocking in between the studs horizontally with 2x6, or even 2x8. Just make sure to document your layout with pictures, or a drawing before you close in everything for easy reference later. Woudnt advise skinning the room with plywood.


Pat.


Thanks Pat, That's a Great Idea!





If I had unlimited budget, I'd score myself some QuietRock, and also use sound-deadening insulation all the way through.


I'll have to look into that QuietRock and see what it costs.

Thanks

[reeltrouble1]

Sal,

If you are going to frame a room for sound you use 2x6 top and bottom plates, you put your studs on 16" centers, but you put one at the front then one 8" from it at the back of the floor/top plate, this gives you a weave effect with your sound bats. Then you get sound board, glue it to the front studs, then you put the two layers of drywall glued to each other with staggered seams.

You still have to treat the inside walls.

Good Luck.

Ted

[GV#27]

Seeing as you are starting from scratch and I assume have some flexability in the dimensions ,you may want to look into building it with the optimum dimensional ratios for the best bass modal distribution.Room size and shape have a big influence on bass response (a perfect square being the worst)so optimizing it from the start should prove to be a whorthwhile tweak.
Here are few links that may be useful.
http://www.cinemasource.com/articles/room_modes/modes.html
http://www.mcsquared.com/modecalc.htm
http://www.rpginc.com/news/library/roomsizer.pdf

[Hobbyguy]

We have cellulose in our walls. Works great for sound dampening and insulation (although insulation is not what you need for inside walls)

[Lasareath]

Sal,

If you are going to frame a room for sound you use 2x6 top and bottom plates, you put your studs on 16" centers, but you put one at the front then one 8" from it at the back of the floor/top plate, this gives you a weave effect with your sound bats. Then you get sound board, glue it to the front studs, then you put the two layers of drywall glued to each other with staggered seams.

You still have to treat the inside walls.

Good Luck.

Ted


That sounds like the way to do it. But maybe in my next house or if I win the big game :)

I wasn't planning on using any Bat insulation in the walls because of the concrete block walls, I don't want to create a temperature difference that will produce condensation.

[Lasareath]

I've Heard of this before.

My Biggest concern was to get a room big enough for my 1.2TL's

The main wall will be 22 Feet long and it should be around 13 Feet Deep

Should I make it a Trapezoid?


Seeing as you are starting from scratch and I assume have some flexability in the dimensions ,you may want to look into building it with the optimum dimensional ratios for the best bass modal distribution.Room size and shape have a big influence on bass response (a perfect square being the worst)so optimizing it from the start should prove to be a whorthwhile tweak.
Here are few links that may be useful.
http://www.cinemasource.com/articles/room_modes/modes.html
http://www.mcsquared.com/modecalc.htm
http://www.rpginc.com/news/library/roomsizer.pdf

[Face]

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=36&pagestring=Room+Setup+10

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=27&pagestring=Room+Setup

[Lasareath]

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=36&pagestring=Room+Setup+10

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=27&pagestring=Room+Setup


Thanks Face.


That's not happening unless I take out another Mortgage to dig out the basement 3 feet!

LOL

[Face]

You could always raise the ceiling. :D

[John30_30]

Don't notch the studs, either. You're destroying the structural integrity of the wall. Albeit, it's not a load bearing wall, but you will want it as strong as possible to avoid vibrations.

That's wrong. You've never framed a house. How do you think framers square up outer walls? Structural load-bearing walls, btw.



Double drywall sounds like one heck of a hassle....


Agreed, and seems pointless to me. But it's your party. Also that staggered stud idea looks cute, but I doubt you'll get more deadening from that than using 2 x 6 walls with 6" batting. It's like R32?
If you wanted to go truly ape, put 1" styrofoamboard over the studs, go on top of that with some of that latex, and then drywall it.

Or ask a contractor how he'd do it. Other people do build soundbooths.

[nooshinjohn]

if I was closer i would love to help you set this up...
My plan when I have a basement is to frame the entire room with 2x6 and 2x4, alternating between them, at 16" centers for the side walls. the ceiling will receive a similar treatment the back wall will be flat but have a 36" wide false back room to conseal the equipment such as a projector and components. I will have hidden panels that will conceal all my wiring at floor level and at sourrond speaker level. these panels will run all the way around the room, thus giving me the ability to upgrade or completely rearainge my system as needed. the spaces between studs will be fully insulated/soundproofed as much as possible. the finished walls will be designed from the start to reduce coloration and reflexion as much as possible, using soe architectural elements found in the design of smaller concert halls. I would suggest perhaps looking at using such elements when you start building and look into some of the things done by concert hall design masters as you bring this together

[disneyjoe7]

Staggering a wall like that so the ceiling and floor beams are 2x6 the wall being 2x4, both being 16" center walls. One is off by 8" for the other on the other side of wall, this does stop noise from traveling from one side to the other. Insulation helps also in this regard. Not a waste ask Ted. :)

[GV#27]

The main wall will be 22 Feet long and it should be around 13 Feet Deep

Great,assuming an 8' ceiling those dimensions are close to the optimum ratio for H x W x L =1x 1.6 x 2.33

[Hobbyguy]

http://www.internationalcellulose.com/news/arena-gets-acoustical-treatment.jsp

[nooshinjohn]

Staggering a wall like that so the ceiling and floor beams are 2x6 the wall being 2x4, both being 16" center walls. One is off by 8" for the other on the other side of wall, this does stop noise from traveling from one side to the other. Insulation helps also in this regard. Not a waste ask Ted. :)

the idea is to have 1 2x4 every 32" and 2x6 every 32" so that the walls are not a continuous flat surface on both sides.

[okiepolkie]

That sounds like the way to do it. But maybe in my next house or if I win the big game :)

I wasn't planning on using any Bat insulation in the walls because of the concrete block walls, I don't want to create a temperature difference that will produce condensation.

Even without the insulation, the staggered stud method would be my recommendation for an audio room. This has become my preferred method when I am brought into a project well in advance.

I agree that plywood is overkill. Two layers of sheetrock will be fine.

[Lasareath]

if I was closer i would love to help you set this up...
My plan when I have a basement is to frame the entire room with 2x6 and 2x4, alternating between them, at 16" centers for the side walls. the ceiling will receive a similar treatment the back wall will be flat but have a 36" wide false back room to conseal the equipment such as a projector and components. I will have hidden panels that will conceal all my wiring at floor level and at sourrond speaker level. these panels will run all the way around the room, thus giving me the ability to upgrade or completely rearainge my system as needed. the spaces between studs will be fully insulated/soundproofed as much as possible. the finished walls will be designed from the start to reduce coloration and reflexion as much as possible, using soe architectural elements found in the design of smaller concert halls. I would suggest perhaps looking at using such elements when you start building and look into some of the things done by concert hall design masters as you bring this together

Come on Down John!, Ben is coming to help me hook up the electricity!

[gdb]

Are you building 2 or 3 sections of wall/partitions and will the other sides of the walls need to be finished or will they be left rough/open ?? What percentage of your walls will receive the sound panels? If this is going to be a dedicated music room/mancave and you want it to be "dead", have you thought about carpeting the walls? To soundproof the ceiling/wall spaces you might want to have a low density polyurethane foam sprayed by a reputable installer/applicator, also if this space is "below grade" make sure to use treated lumber for your bottom plates and if you use drywall, use MR grade (moisture resistant). If you'd like, you could build curved walls and "laminate" them with either thin plywood, 1/4" drywall or both. It's really not as involved as it might seem, I know, after doing it in various commercial/professional settings through the years! If your basement has ANY CHANCE of flooding,I'd recommend multiple sump pumps be installed, and also elevating your gear off of the floor a little. Never heard of "green glue" around here but regular construction adhesive is a MUCH better choice than drywall adhesive,Liquid Nails or PL are good ones. One last tip....pre-drill studs for running wires, unless you've got an angle drill or an 18" auger bit, especially if you go with 12"OC spacing. Happy building !!:)

[Lorthos]

One other thing you should consider, if you have the room, is to have a room/space behind where all your audio/video equipment is.

I did that in my home theater area and it sure is nice to be able to open up a door, walk in, and do any cable work you have to do....

[nooshinjohn]

Come on Down John!, Ben is coming to help me hook up the electricity!

I wish I could my friend... Doing HT setup was a passion of mine before the economy in CA took a crap in 1991-93... Actually assisted on setups for some pretty big hollywood types, like the guy that did ET... but contractually I cannot name names...:D

[LessisNevermore]

That's wrong. You've never framed a house. How do you think framers square up outer walls? Structural load-bearing walls, btw.



Agreed, and seems pointless to me. But it's your party. Also that staggered stud idea looks cute, but I doubt you'll get more deadening from that than using 2 x 6 walls with 6" batting. It's like R32?
If you wanted to go truly ape, put 1" styrofoamboard over the studs, go on top of that with some of that latex, and then drywall it.

Or ask a contractor how he'd do it. Other people do build soundbooths.

A lot of these ideas (double drywall, staggered studs) come from recording studios. They are proven methods.

1" Styrofoam over the studs? :rolleyes:You'll suck every screw right through the drywall. If you do manage to keep it from falling off the wall, good luck taping and mudding it. The pros do it with thin rubber strips, or green glue.

[John30_30]

A lot of these ideas (double drywall, staggered studs) come from recording studios. They are proven methods.

1" Styrofoam over the studs? :rolleyes:You'll suck every screw right through the drywall. If you do manage to keep it from falling off the wall, good luck taping and mudding it. The pros do it with thin rubber strips, or green glue.

No, tack the foamboard the same way you do on an external wall- with plastic washer type nails. Then you go over the foamboard with your drywall.:rolleyes: Then bed & tape.
We did the bathrooms for an eccentric millionaire like that. The guy didn't want anyone else outside the bathroom hearing his....grunts and farts, I guess. :eek: Weird oilman.
Did a soundbooth for my ex-brother-in-law's recording studio with, iirc, thick carpet on the walls, which were masonite cladded. Can't swear to that, it was almost 30 years ago.
But, hey, if staggering studs does the job, great.

[dfranks]

I have been in the construction industry 20+ years now, My primary scope of work is in Drywall and steelstud framing. Or the technical term is "wall and ceiling" installer. Do your self a favour and go to some drywall manufacturer website's and they will give you the STC classifications on all listed Wall assemblies.
The short version is:
-Allways use Mineral wool insulation to fill the stud cavity ( it transfers sound energy to heat better than pink etc) it also deadens the Higher frequencies, Drywall etc takes care of the lower frequencies due to its mass.
-To frame a party wall (as you have specified above) make sure to use a separate plate for the studs top and bottom, (build 2 separate walls with a min 1" air space between them)
-Maybe try and use steel studs, they have a higher STC rating than wood due to being completely filled with insulation and they will not act like a "Guitar string" because of their mass.
- Adding a full layer of plywood is going to lower your STC rating substancially, so I recommend not doing it.
- Use 2 layers of drywall Glue apply the top layer with screw fasteners at the perimeter and joints only. Not only does it save on finishing for paint it will also raise the STC.
-Look into resilient channell ( the results are quite substancial)

Just my 2 cents....

Do your homework and have fun with your project.



Do some more homework you will find the results astounding.

[dfranks]

1" styrofoam is not Designed to deaden noise in anyway shape or form. This product is designed for its thermal properties only. For example, EIFS applications,(Exterior insulation finish systems)
As well as it is illegal (where I live) due to the product having such a terrible fire rating and Low Flashpoint to fire!.:eek:

It is probabaly one of the most hazardous products out there to be used inside a house.

Break your job down to 2 systems
1) Minimize the most amount of sound PASSING through your walls and ceilings.
2)Use soundpanels/baffles to TUNE the enviroment inside the room.

Keep it simple.

[reeltrouble1]

That's wrong. You've never framed a house. How do you think framers square up outer walls? Structural load-bearing walls, btw.



Agreed, and seems pointless to me. But it's your party. Also that staggered stud idea looks cute, but I doubt you'll get more deadening from that than using 2 x 6 walls with 6" batting. It's like R32?
If you wanted to go truly ape, put 1" styrofoamboard over the studs, go on top of that with some of that latex, and then drywall it.

Or ask a contractor how he'd do it. Other people do build soundbooths.

you are cute too but you dont know what your talking about.

RT1

[reeltrouble1]

Come on Down John!, Ben is coming to help me hook up the electricity!

yikes............be careful and make sure ben is operating at 100% capacity!!!!

RT1

[Lasareath]

One other thing you should consider, if you have the room, is to have a room/space behind where all your audio/video equipment is.

I did that in my home theater area and it sure is nice to be able to open up a door, walk in, and do any cable work you have to do....

I'd Love to do this but I'd have to flip the room 180 degrees and if I do that the main long wall will have a doorway and it will be behind of of my 1.2tl's :(




I wish I could my friend... Doing HT setup was a passion of mine before the economy in CA took a crap in 1991-93... Actually assisted on setups for some pretty big hollywood types, like the guy that did ET... but contractually I cannot name names...:D


Very Sweet!, Too bad you're not on the East Coast!




I have been in the construction industry 20+ years now, My primary scope of work is in Drywall and steelstud framing. Or the technical term is "wall and ceiling" installer. Do your self a favour and go to some drywall manufacturer website's and they will give you the STC classifications on all listed Wall assemblies.
The short version is:
-Allways use Mineral wool insulation to fill the stud cavity ( it transfers sound energy to heat better than pink etc) it also deadens the Higher frequencies, Drywall etc takes care of the lower frequencies due to its mass.
-To frame a party wall (as you have specified above) make sure to use a separate plate for the studs top and bottom, (build 2 separate walls with a min 1" air space between them)
-Maybe try and use steel studs, they have a higher STC rating than wood due to being completely filled with insulation and they will not act like a "Guitar string" because of their mass.
- Adding a full layer of plywood is going to lower your STC rating substancially, so I recommend not doing it.
- Use 2 layers of drywall Glue apply the top layer with screw fasteners at the perimeter and joints only. Not only does it save on finishing for paint it will also raise the STC.
-Look into resilient channell ( the results are quite substancial)

Just my 2 cents....

Do your homework and have fun with your project.



Do some more homework you will find the results astounding.


Thanks dfranks!, Lots of info to ingest.




1" styrofoam is not Designed to deaden noise in anyway shape or form. This product is designed for its thermal properties only. For example, EIFS applications,(Exterior insulation finish systems)
As well as it is illegal (where I live) due to the product having such a terrible fire rating and Low Flashpoint to fire!.:eek:

It is probabaly one of the most hazardous products out there to be used inside a house.

Break your job down to 2 systems
1) Minimize the most amount of sound PASSING through your walls and ceilings.
2)Use soundpanels/baffles to TUNE the enviroment inside the room.

Keep it simple.


Thanks Again!

Sal

[Lasareath]

you are cute too but you dont know what your talking about.

RT1

LOL!!!


Ted,

Do you have any issues of having your Amp in your Woodshed Rig located by your speakers and the rest of the gear on the adjacent wall?

I'm thinking of taking Lorthos's suggestion and putting all the gear except the amps inside a cabinet at the back wall of my new audio room. This way I would have access to the rear of the gear very easily. I also will be using a projector and this makes hooking it up very simple.

What do you Think?

Thanks,

Sal

[John30_30]

you are cute too but you dont know what your talking about.

RT1

It's possible, it's possible.:D

[SCompRacer]

Sal, I have dipoles so I don't know if it applies to you, but racks higher than a level or two between my speakers will interfere with my sound stage and also raise it. I’ve experienced that here with my three level rack.

Also, gear and the rack in between speakers can be subjected to higher resonance than on a side wall. You would notice the effects more with tube gear (Herbies tube dampers will help) and turntables (feedback at low SPL’s, requiring better isolation). At higher SPL’s, like 115dB, put your hand on the gear and you quickly understand why higher end components are made with thick panels. Avoiding symmetry with your speakers (equidistance from side walls flanked by corners) can also reduce room issues (even with acoustic treatment). Had that happen here too.

[reeltrouble1]

Sal,

Been away for a while but I see Rich got you, no, zero issues with the gear in the shed on the side wall, I actually prefer it there from when I had it between the speakers.

RT1

[Lasareath]

Sal, I have dipoles so I don't know if it applies to you, but racks higher than a level or two between my speakers will interfere with my sound stage and also raise it. I’ve experienced that here with my three level rack.

Also, gear and the rack in between speakers can be subjected to higher resonance than on a side wall. You would notice the effects more with tube gear (Herbies tube dampers will help) and turntables (feedback at low SPL’s, requiring better isolation). At higher SPL’s, like 115dB, put your hand on the gear and you quickly understand why higher end components are made with thick panels. Avoiding symmetry with your speakers (equidistance from side walls flanked by corners) can also reduce room issues (even with acoustic treatment). Had that happen here too.


Thanks for the information.



Sal,

Been away for a while but I see Rich got you, no, zero issues with the gear in the shed on the side wall, I actually prefer it there from when I had it between the speakers.

RT1


I'd love to put most of my gear on the back wall under my projector, maybe in cabinet built into the wall, then I can get to the back of all the gear from outside the audio room.

My only concern is the connection from my Pre-Amp / Receiver to my Amps, those cables are going to be like 25 to 30 feet long.

Most likely up front I will have 3 amps and a center channel speaker. And in the back I will have 2 more amps for the 4 surround speakers and the rest of the source equipment

[LessisNevermore]

-Maybe try and use steel studs, they have a higher STC rating than wood due to being completely filled with insulation and they will not act like a "Guitar string" because of their mass.


Are the steel studs one formed piece, or two welded pieces?

I agree, they would not resonate like a guitar string, but can still transmit vibration into the top and bottom studs, no? Wouldn't an undercoating product, applied to the steel studs, further dampen the sympathetic vibrations? (In addition to the insulation)

[disneyjoe7]

With steel you couldn't build an off-set studded wall, being 2x6 bottom and top plates with 2x4 facing both sides.

[gdb]

With steel you couldn't build an off-set studded wall, being 2x6 bottom and top plates with 2x4 facing both sides.

If you've got enough Hilti pins and loads, you could shoot down two tracks/plates and stagger that way. Better still, use 2 1/2" studs & tracks and put up two separate walls w/airspace between them for increased sound attenuation.;) Don't forget hearing protection when shooting the fasteners into the slab !:eek:

[Lasareath]

If you've got enough Hilti pins and loads, you could shoot down two tracks/plates and stagger that way. Better still, use 2 1/2" studs & tracks and put up two separate walls w/airspace between them for increased sound attenuation.;) Don't forget hearing protection when shooting the fasteners into the slab !:eek:


I was going to use some sort of concrete nail fired into the slab to attach the bottom sill to the basement floor. But I was also planning on using Construction Adhesive so there would be less air leakage.

[reeltrouble1]

Thanks for the information.





I'd love to put most of my gear on the back wall under my projector, maybe in cabinet built into the wall, then I can get to the back of all the gear from outside the audio room.

My only concern is the connection from my Pre-Amp / Receiver to my Amps, those cables are going to be like 25 to 30 feet long.

Most likely up front I will have 3 amps and a center channel speaker. And in the back I will have 2 more amps for the 4 surround speakers and the rest of the source equipment

Use balanced cables for your long runs, besides balanced is better, quit being cheap, just go charge somebody a fee or something when you do the next job.

Sal you need to use the soundboard over your staggered studs before the drywall, the stuff is cheap, like 10 bucks for a 4x8 sheet, then you can use a sound sealing caulk on all your seams. Even if you do not stagger studs, although not doing it is a mistake, you should use the sound board. You need to keep noises outside out and the HT sound in, just remember that.

RT1

[ShinAce]

I think you should do a frequency response measurement of the room/space and tackle the biggest issues only. Once you know where the most energy is being reflected and which room modes are 'standing' out, then you can treat the room without going overboard or missing a note, so to speak.

I do understand that you're building the walls, so it's not like these in-world measurements are easy.

[scottnbnj]

i don't know about stc or what they do to sound in the room, but steel studs are really nice for building basements.

aside from better performance than wood in regard to rot, mold and not changing shape and size with humidity changes, if there isn't a bilco door, they're lighter and stack in half the space. that makes them easier to wind though the house down to the basement and, maybe, work with.

for me, they're easier to work with once you get the hang of the process and have the right tools. they're sort of like a switch. it's on or it's off, it works or it doesn't. it's pretty easy to see, feel and test. wood takes some experience to predict beforehand what's going to go or be wrong with it while installing, later in the building process and/or after everything is finished. in short, the difference is the consistency of the product and predictability of the outcome. i think installation is also easier to learn than traditional wood framing if you're starting from zero.

also, i don't know if you're already considering firestop, but it might be a good idea on the tops of walls that create the dead space cavity near the foundation. it's probably code where you're at, it will be safer and it will lower sound transmission to upper levels.

which walls are you planning to stagger the studs on?

)

[dfranks]

2 separate walls This combination will give you around 59 STC

Under bottom track install 1" track tape gasket to concrete fasten using Hilt 3/4" concrete pins with green shot,shot every 16" ( wear safety glasses in case of spalling)

Top track to existing Drywall ceiling, 1" track tape gasket, fasten with screws.

2layers of 1/2 Type-X drywall, ( screw first layer 12" O/C in field and 8" at joints (should stand up fist layer if under 12') Caulk with acoustical caulking at top sides and bottom where drywall butts to a differnet surface. 2nd Layer, lay down sheets screw joints only at 12"O/C glue this layer in field with any pl 300 or better adhesive.

2 1/2" steel studs 24"O/C with 3/4' wall stiffener,cw 3" Mineral wool insul

1" air space Do not fasten walls to each other!

Continue with 2nd assembly working from bare studs forward to finish drywall.

When painting the finished wall stick to flat or porous paints, Semi or high gloss reflect the sound around the room like a gymnasium. Some cloth or woven wallpaper give the best results. I prefer flat paints for acoustics,you will have to paint a bit more often than the using the acrylic paints.

[dfranks]

one other thing.... If you have elictrical boxes in this assembly or openings... Seal behind openings with drywall inside the stud cavity. OR the best method is to not have any openings of any kind including electrical. Furr out wall in front of this one to carry this electrical if necessary. this wall would be just 1/2"standard board and studs to conceal electrical.

[Phil Dawson]

Slightly off topic but when we built our new house a couple of years ago I put in a bunch of flexible conduit with about 20-25 outlets. This lets me change the wiring when I wish (I've already done that a couple of times). You can get up to about 1" ID and then you are locked in with your pre-wiring and you don't have to look at a bunch of wires running all over the place.
Good luck, Phil

[rengnath]

For hanging heavy objects on walls, the plastic anchors like the ones below work well. They are a little pricey, not bad though, and can be picked up at any home depot or local hardware store. We have 2 40" LCD's in the house, both are hung with 8 anchors each. We werent fortunate enough to hit even 1 stud when hanging either of the tvs, but they are still hanging on the wall today so i guess that is a good sign. I want to say when the plastic anchor is drilled into 3/4" drywall, it is rated at 80lbs.


drywall anchors like this will hold close to 100 pounds or more. I just saw it on DIY network last night

http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/inffastener/i/zipit1.jpg

http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/inffastener/infanchor/infanchor.html

[Lasareath]

Use balanced cables for your long runs, besides balanced is better, quit being cheap, just go charge somebody a fee or something when you do the next job.

Sal you need to use the soundboard over your staggered studs before the drywall, the stuff is cheap, like 10 bucks for a 4x8 sheet, then you can use a sound sealing caulk on all your seams. Even if you do not stagger studs, although not doing it is a mistake, you should use the sound board. You need to keep noises outside out and the HT sound in, just remember that.

RT1


What do I do if my amps don't accept Balanced cables?

[nooshinjohn]

you can get adapters to bring them down to the rca type connectors

[GV#27]

you can get adapters to bring them down to the rca type connectors
Yes but then all the advantages of the balanced connection are lost unless both the send and recieve ends are true balanced differential inputs/outputs.With RCA's the best you can do is use a good shielded cable and keep it away from the AC wiring./power cords etc.

[nooshinjohn]

Yes but then all the advantages of the balanced connection are lost unless both the send and recieve ends are true balanced differential inputs/outputs.With RCA's the best you can do is use a good shielded cable and keep it away from the AC wiring./power cords etc.


I understand that... currently his gear uses rca type connections. If he runs balanced cables and uses balanced to rca adapters for now, when he upgrades gear then he will be ready and not have to rewire the system:D

[GV#27]

If he runs balanced cables and uses balanced to rca adapters for now, when he upgrades gear then he will be ready and not have to rewire the system:DThat wouldn't be a bad idea.;)

[reeltrouble1]

Sal you can turn loose of the dough or you can use your single ended on a 20 ft run, and lose a hair, besides we talking HT???

RT1

[Lasareath]

Sal you can turn loose of the dough or you can use your single ended on a 20 ft run, and lose a hair, besides we talking HT???

RT1


We're Talking HT & 2 Channel

[Lasareath]

you can get adapters to bring them down to the rca type connectors


Right now I am using Ben's custom made Silver Y's, the legs are 36" long and have locking RCAs

I guess I'll just have to order 30 foot Silver Y's from Ben, He's gonna kill me, His fingers will be numb for a week!

[Lasareath]

I'm going to start buying some 2 by 4's

I guess for the bottom sill I should use Pressure treated?

Also, should I do double bottom sill and double top plate?

Thanks,

Sal

[Ricardo]

No need of doubling; I used pressure treated for the bottom. Feels like the right thing.

[Lasareath]

No need of doubling; I used pressure treated for the bottom. Feels like the right thing.

Ricardo,

I saw on this old house, Tom Silva also framed a basement and for the bottom sill he used two 2x4's that were pressure treated. But the bottom one had 1" notches cut out of it every 12"

The reason he did this is just incase there is any water on the basement floor it will run under the sills and not be blocked off by the sill

I am planning on using the dri-core floor system as well

http://www.homedepot.ca/wcsstore/HomeDepotCanada/images/catalog/4c71e354-9647-4fc3-8ba0-a6ab8ea1e4f0_4.jpg

So I figured if any water needed to run off it would go under the Dri-Core panels.

[Lasareath]

you should read the articles on brissons law about building bass traps on the roof using the 1 inch thick fibreglass rolls .You can house them between 2 by 4s and this will give your music room sonic qualitys of a proffesional recording studio, no need for that dam 160 a piece sheet rock i head about people buying


On the Roof?

My audio room is going to be in the basement, I have a 5 level Split-Level house. The roof is really far away.

[ben62670]

You seal up that concrete like we talked about?

[Ricardo]

Well, I didn't build mine considering there would be water in my basement. If that ever happens, the walls will be the least of the problems.

[4406bbl]

Ricardo,

I saw on this old house, Tom Silva also framed a basement and for the bottom sill he used two 2x4's that were pressure treated. But the bottom one had 1" notches cut out of it every 12"

The reason he did this is just incase there is any water on the basement floor it will run under the sills and not be blocked off by the sill

I am planning on using the dri-core floor system as well

http://www.homedepot.ca/wcsstore/HomeDepotCanada/images/catalog/4c71e354-9647-4fc3-8ba0-a6ab8ea1e4f0_4.jpg

So I figured if any water needed to run off it would go under the Dri-Core panels.

If you notch the bottom plate you may need to double it, I set my walls on 4"x4" ceramic tiles so the plate is off the floor with no notches and the water can get out, cheaper and better.

[disneyjoe7]

If you have to worry about water and a double sill plate, I would worry about water wicking up water also. Make sure your drywall didn't hit the floor, where you base board hind it.

[Lasareath]

Well, I didn't build mine considering there would be water in my basement. If that ever happens, the walls will be the least of the problems.


Last week we had rain 4 days straight, So I checked the basement and there was around 1/2 gallon of water that came in through the basement wall.

This 1/2 a gallon found its way to the drain that was around 15 feet away.

The side of the basement with the water is not the side that my system will be in.


It's actually very strange, the 3 exterior basement walls were completely dry but the basement wall that is next to the garage is where the leak was.

There must be a collection of water under the garage slab that finds its way through the foundation wall.

The basement looks like it is covered with dri-lock already except for 3 small areas, and one of these areas is where this water comes in!

I was thinking I could drill a 2" hole through the basement slab to the level of where the water comes in and I can install a sump pump in the garage and whenever there is a collection of water under the Garage slab that I can just pump it off.

What you think?

Sal

[Lasareath]

If you have to worry about water and a double sill plate, I would worry about water wicking up water also. Make sure your drywall didn't hit the floor, where you base board hind it.

Yeah I have an architect friend and he said the same thing. He also said I could use Blueboard for the bottom half of the wall.

[ben62670]

Dude "I think it is dry-lock" isn't solid enough for me. You want to keep the moisture down as much as possible. Property and health reasons. You do not want mold to grow in there. Everything needs to be sealed, vented, and drained.

[Lasareath]

Dude "I think it is dry-lock" isn't solid enough for me. You want to keep the moisture down as much as possible. Property and health reasons. You do not want mold to grow in there. Everything needs to be sealed, vented, and drained.


Ben, I have no desire to scrap, sand and re-paint the basement because I'm not sure if it's dri-lock or not. Way Too much work for me.

The house is 47 years old and there's no mold, no mildew and no damp smell whatsoever.

[ben62670]

You think that is a lot of work. Redoing everything is a lot of work. It really isn't that bad to prep if it is not peeling. Also the surfaces are exposed now. If you cover them up they will retain the moisture that is evaporating away.

[disneyjoe7]

Sal, I also don't feel comfortable building anything down there knowing water can get there. Need to fix this first as a redo is really going to s&ck.

[Lasareath]

If I apply Dri-Lock to the wall where the water is coming in, what happens to the water?

I'm affraid that if i don't pump out that water then it will just find another weak point to inflitrate into the basement.

[Ricardo]

Sal,

As others said, fix the water issue first. You don't want water in your basement every time it rains, period.

[engtaz]

Dri-Lock the floor and walls not just where the water shows.

[Lasareath]

Sal,

As others said, fix the water issue first. You don't want water in your basement every time it rains, period.


Dri-Lock the floor and walls not just where the water shows.


With four days of rain I got a little trickle of water coming from the wall that is right next to the garage.

Alll of the gutters are piped to the street. I guess some water must get under the garage slab.

I'm going to put a sump hole and pump in the garage, I'm going to install it in the same area where the water comes into the basement.

After the sump is in I will dri-lock all the walls and basement floor.

Hopefully that will stop the water coming into the basement.

Thanks All!

Sal

[engtaz]

Better safe then sorry. Good luck.

[ben62670]

Dude you know I love ya, but even a little moisture can wreak havoc on dead air spaces. Dry lock the piss out of it. It is very cheap insurance. I can not stress enough the need for a moisture block. Concrete can withstand holding moisture. I did some bridge work also and the columns were never treated that were immersed in water, Damns...
As we spoke about dehumidify the room. Dry concrete will soak up the sealer very nicely. Sealers don't adhere to "wet" concrete well. You do not want the sealer to peel. I did a lot of work like this, and where the concrete wasn't very dry the sealer peeled and failed.

[Lasareath]

I think I found the issue. Two gutters on the side of my house where the leak is coming in must be clogged because the water does not go down the down spouts, it just pours off the sides.

I'm going to have them cleaned and then I will see if the water is still coming in.

[disneyjoe7]

Not sure if this has come up in this thread, but have you also checked the yard pitch. So if water is to pool outside, it needs to run away from house not to house.

[Lasareath]

Not sure if this has come up in this thread, but have you also checked the yard pitch. So if water is to pool outside, it needs to run away from house not to house.


Yeah the Yard pitches towards the house but years ago they connected all the down spouts and they run off to the street. I can see two 3" pipes coming out of the curb on either side of the house.

This must be why the 3 sides of the basement are completely dry and the other side with the clogged gutters has water coming in.

The good thing is that the water only comes in after 3 or 4 days of continous rain.

Hopefully I can just clean out the gutters with my hands and I don't need to snake the whole system because that is gonna suck!

[engtaz]

pics as you make progress please. Picture documentory would be cool.

[kevhed72]

Another vote for Dry-locking all walls and floor. I had a friend who spent $$$$$ on a custom basement job, but the contractor didn't dry-lock anything. (Then, use a plastic vapor barrier before you put down whatever type of floor). The result, the beautiful custom basement had that damp, grandmother's closet smell ALL THE TIME. Also, use adhesive and screws for all your drywall.

[disneyjoe7]

Yeah the Yard pitches towards the house but years ago they connected all the down spouts and they run off to the street. I can see two 3" pipes coming out of the curb on either side of the house.

This must be why the 3 sides of the basement are completely dry and the other side with the clogged gutters has water coming in.

The good thing is that the water only comes in after 3 or 4 days of continous rain.

Hopefully I can just clean out the gutters with my hands and I don't need to snake the whole system because that is gonna suck!


Sal,

This is your problem, if rain is heavy it can pool next to the house if the yard is pitch is too the house. The pitch needs to be from the house, you need to redo the yard adding dirt, redoing grass or whatever. Everything else is a band-aid not that it's not bad insurance, but its not the problem. IMHO :)

[Rocco1]

Sal you should just build a new structure in your back yard!
J/K
That would be sweet though. Sounds like you have tons of work in front of you. At least its all for a good thing.

[Stevenmbell]

I worked in a recording studio and the walls there were four sheets of 5/8 with one layer mdf 1/2in in the middle very good dampening

[Lasareath]

All the sheetrock in my house is two costs of 3/8" sheetrock. So 3/4", I guess that's how they did it in 1962 ?

[Rocco1]

I have heard of a lot of people using mdf board with sheet rock over it.
I havent been in any of them rooms so i couldnt say if they are good or not.
To me it sounds like a good way to do it.

[engtaz]

Sal, how is it going on your project? I hope all is well.

engtaz

[Lasareath]

Sal, how is it going on your project? I hope all is well.

engtaz


I had Ned Stevens came out and clean all my gutters and two of the leaders went into underground pipes that were clogged.

This morning my Uncle who is a plumber came with this huge snake and motor and he cranked the snake through the pipes until everything was cleared.

One of underground pipes was all covered with dirt and so I had to dig it out and install a new pipe and lay some concrete around it so it doesn't come apart again.

Now I should be good and this should take care of the water issue I was having in the basement. Gonna wait till a couple more showers and if I get no water in the basement then I will start framing.

Sal

[Lasareath]

It's currently raining outside and there's no water in the basement :)

I just checked the forecast and it says we will have rain for the next 9 days, so I guess if I get no water in the basement I will be safe to start the framing of my new audio room!

[jimmydep]

PM sent

[Lasareath]

I got a little trickle of water in the basement again :(

It comes in from the side where the garage is. the level at where it comes in is under the garage slab.

I may look into putting a sump pump in the garage.

what you guys think?

Sal

[bigaudiofanatic]

Here is crazy idea. Put up your drywall and than lay dynamat extreme over it works for a car may work for your room of corse it would become a silver room.

[tcrossma]

Check the grading of the lawn in that area and make sure water isn't flowing back toward the foundation. Most basements will leak if presented with enough water, so the real key is keeping the water away in the first place. Some dry-lock as a "last line of defense".

You could just go the sump-pump route, but I personally would rather try and eliminate the cause if at all possible.

I'm no expert, just a home-owner with some leaking-basement experience, so take my advice with a grain of salt. ;)