B-stock 1646CS Plus @ SVS

[HBombToo]

Doc or anyone... What are your thoughts regarding B-Stock equipment. Is there something that I should be concerned about regarding performance?



Doc why did you go with the 2039 and not the 1646?
Thanks in advance.


HBomb

[Dr. Spec]

B-Stock is usually a return or such a minor cosmetic defect it cannot normally be noticed. Many B-Stock SVS owners TRY to find why it was B-Stock and cannot. Warranty is full. In short, I personally wouldn't hesitate to purchase any B-Stock SVS product. I would caution you however that they often sell almost immediately after being listed, especially the Plus line.

As you may know, the largest enclosure sacrifices a bit of output for the deep extension. The opposite is true for the smallest enclosure - it plays the loudest overall, but not the deepest. To put numbers to it, a 25-31 CS+ is capable of about 3 dB more maximum output above its tuning point of 25 Hz than the 16-46 CS+.

The 25-31 CS+ is capable of very very high volumes - it is a match for the Ultra above 25 Hz. The 16-46 CS+ is a bit more sedate overall, but man does it dig DEEP.

The 20-39 enclosure splits the difference between the two and seemed to me the best compromise. In my room, my 20-39PC+ with all three ports open has an F3 of 18 Hz. With one port plugged, it is flat to 11 Hz with no sign of roll-off.

A 16-46 CS+ with all ports open will have an in-room F3 of probably 13 Hz with more overall output than a 20-39 CS+ with one port plugged.

If you don't play really REALLY loud, and your room is reasonable in size (2000 ft3 or less) the 16-46 CS+ will provide ALL the volume you could ever ask for, and the deepest extension of just about any sub out there. In that size room, SPL peaks of 110 dB would be expected.

The CS+ requires a high current external amp capable of driving a 4 ohm load. I would not use anything less than 500 watts.

Also, any vented sub will "unload" below its tuning point. The 16-46 CS+ can be bottomed at very high volumes with frequencies below 15 Hz or so. If you are intending on pushing it very hard, a subsonic filter like the one integrated into the SVS01 bass box (see Gonzo's stuff he just bought in the Elctronics Forum) is a good idea to match up with the amp.

I guess that's why I went with the PC+ instead of the CS+. I have the SS filter and the infinitely variable phase built in, and you have to pay $160 for the SVS01 Bass Box in addition to the amp to get the same features. In short, the PC+ is a better value than a single CS+ and the SVS01 Bass Box and (for example) a 2 channel amp like the Samson S1000.

Of course if you are just set on one CS+, you can look at other sub plate amps that have the phase control and the SS filter built in and accomplish the same thing. In fact I recently recommended to SVS that they offer the unmounted 525 w Indigo BASH amp (that powers the PC+ series) with the CS+ subs - I think that combo would sell like crazy. In fact if you ask Ron Stimpson, he just might sell you one and you could mount it anywhere and essentially get a PC+ with a remote amp.

Hope this helps - if you provide more about your room dimensions, I might be able to get more specific on whether the 16-46 is for you.

[goingganzo]

they have great suport too. i had a problem at 10 pm last night i sent a email and got a responce not 20 min later. if i ever decide to add 2 more subs i will be getting my amp from svs agin.

[HBombToo]

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
I would caution you however that they often sell almost immediately after being listed, especially the Plus line.


Holy crapola! I just returned to the site after navigating the "WAF" and they are GONE.

I can't believe this. Snooze ya Lose I guess but oh well... I had to check with the wife first or I woulda been in some real deep kimchi.

I'll take ya up on the room dim though.

Thanks
HBomb

[Dr. Spec]

Bummer HBomb - sorry you missed it. Keep your eyes peeled and get ready to pull the trigger if another B-Stocker comes up. There was a 16-46PC+ on the other day that went in 15 minutes after being listed - poof!

[HBombToo]

The total room dims are 16 wide by 36 long.

I have my sweet spot around 14 feet from the fronts. The Fronts have 1 foot from the side walls and about 3 from the back.

After looking at it I think your right on taget with the 20-39 PC+ but thanks for looking at it prior to my purchase.

I have to make sure I'm happy with it because another big speaker purchase would bring the wrath from a 4' 11" dynamo. ;)

Thanks
HBomb

[RuSsMaN]

Just save the coin, and get it on man. You know you want to.

Think about how your Missourah cleft pallet will vibrate with the SVS.....

YES, I AM OFFICALLY H-BOMBED, and STRUTIN' like a ROOSTER.

Cheers,
Rooster

[HBombToo]

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Just save the coin, and get it on man. You know you want to.

Think about how your Missourah cleft pallet will vibrate with the SVS.....

YES, I AM OFFICALLY H-BOMBED, and STRUTIN' like a ROOSTER.

Cheers,
Rooster


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ya no it begun a kwiat nite but afterd dat I opened a BEAR...


:lol: :lol:

[Dr. Spec]

Henry, what are your listening preferences and volume preferences? Music, HT, organ, hip-hop, pop, rock, bass intensive DVDs, SPL peaks on playback, etc. - that kind of thing.

That is a very large room. Assuming an 8 foot ceiling, you are at nearly 5000 ft3. If you want loud and realistic playback on DVD that you can feel as well as hear, you will need twin subs.

Unless you really want to plumb the absolute deepest depths of music and DVD, in your size room, I'd probably opt for twin 20-39 sized enclosures; CS+, PC+, or Ultra. That enclosure size is the best compromise of output and extension.

The twin 16-46 CS+ or PC+ will certainly not wimp out in this room, but expect slightly less output than from twin 20-39's.

I'm at 1,800 ft3 and I can hit 112-114 dB peaks with my single PC+ at 10 feet from the sub. You'd be lucky to hit 110 dB peaks at 14 feet in a 4700 ft3 room with twins - that's a LOT of air to move.

After all, the dB-12 is only a single 12" driver - albeit a very powerful 12" driver. All subs have their limits in large rooms (except the B4 Plus).

What are you using now for subbage? What is your budget? Do you already have a suitable external amp for one or two CS+?

[RuSsMaN]

C'mon doc, no REAL need to get scientific with Henry, he's a simple man. Dual (any) SVS with a decent amp will do damn near ANY room justice in HT.

'Let's get it ON!!!!'

Cheers,
'Swimming in the amber current' Rooster

[HBombToo]

Currently I have the PSW350 but the daughter trashed it. She realized that there was this spring time thing that she could push on and it would bounce back right up until she tore it. Oh Well... I didn't think it would be prudent to file a warranty claim since it was no fault of Polk.

The ceilings are actually ~13 ft cathedral type which is as close as I can get then turns into a standard 8 through the Dining room. Its real close to 18 ft under the 13 ft and 18 ft under the 8.

I really like to listen to everything but if I'll guess we watch TV/DVD about 75% and Music the rest of the time. More music as the daughter grows up and enjoys dancing around.

I thought you would say twin but can I supe up the 350 to help out?

Thanks
HBomb

[Dr. Spec]

GO ROOOOOOOOOOOOSTER!!!!!!!!!

No, the 350 is out of its league. But if that's all you have right now, twin SVS will turn your shorts brown.

Here's my recommendations, in order of preference:

twin 20-39PC+
twin 20-39CS+ / Samson S1000 / SVS01 Bass Box
twin 20-39CS Ultra / Samson S1000 / SVS01 Bass Box

Only listed Ultra last because of $$$. If you are serious, let me know - might be able to swing a deal on twins for you, even the PC+.

Doc

[HBombToo]

Thanks Doc.

I have alot to chew on... I wonder how I should break the news to the wife?

HBomb

[fireshoes]

I think if you let them know you are looking for B stock they will email you when they have one. Could be wrong. Anyway, I will be listening for the subs soon, HBomb. :lol:

[goingganzo]

man if i wanted a svs sub i can drive there in 3 hours lol they are located in ohio. and olny cost me 20 bucks for shiping on my svs bassbox and the sampson s1000 with weighed over 50 lbs

[burdette]

Hey H-Bomb... um... whadda ya gonna do with that 350 cabinet?? Bein' the dang thangs all trashed and whotnot... could probably haul it away for you.

[scottvamp]

Originally posted by burdette
Hey H-Bomb... um... whadda ya gonna do with that 350 cabinet?? Bein' the dang thangs all trashed and whotnot... could probably haul it away for you.
Just what I was thinking. May be a little cash. Something for the kid.:D


Currently I have the PSW350 but the daughter trashed it. She realized that there was this spring time thing that she could push on and it would bounce back right up until she tore it.
Kids or A/V - time for a different hobbie H-Bomb. :eek:

[HBombToo]

Originally posted by burdette
Hey H-Bomb... um... whadda ya gonna do with that 350 cabinet??

I figured I would really TAX the Doc./Gonzo for ideas. I bet they could turn that 350 into something that could do damage. Doc. said 2 subs for my volume... Fine. I'll purchase the subs but I also want to experiment with the 350.

I'll fund a science fair project but I really want help.
post on
evil twin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HBomb

[mantis]

Nicely done Dr.spec on the B-stock question.
That holds true for almost all companies.B-stock is a really great way to save a buck.These B-stock items are checked over again by the people who made them.
I would buy B-stock anytime.
Didi I mention nice job??:)

[scottvamp]

So you don't want to get rid of it???????
I would just replace the driver with something a bit "heavyer" - not much else to do without "losing money".
Soooooo the kids destroy speakers and you see it as a project.
Pricey!!!!!:lol:
aka : chop liver

[HBombToo]

Originally posted by scottvamp

Soooooo the kids destroy speakers and you see it as a project.
Pricey!!!!!:lol:
aka : chop liver

Crazy BUT.... She trashes it and I'll fix IT.

I need HELP!

....she is doing good IMO.

HBomb:lol:

:confused:

[burdette]

Measure the internal volume. There aren't going to be that many 10" drivers that you'll have to sort through to find the best match for the box. I've got a lot of DIY subwoofer links if you're interested.

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by burdette
Measure the internal volume. There aren't going to be that many 10" drivers that you'll have to sort through to find the best match for the box. I've got a lot of DIY subwoofer links if you're interested.

Ditto - good advice. Oh and thanks for the props, Dan. :)

You want to get evil? First make a warranty claim on the woofer - Polk owes it to you. Tell them you simply blew it out on U-571.

Second, we'll install a set of external flared vents to lower the tune. It'll look like black drag pipes coming out the back. Just mount em right over the existing ports. :p

[HBombToo]

Originally posted by Dr. Spec


twin 20-39PC+
twin 20-39CS+ / Samson S1000 / SVS01 Bass Box
twin 20-39CS Ultra / Samson S1000 / SVS01 Bass Box

Only listed Ultra last because of $$$. If you are serious, let me know - might be able to swing a deal on twins for you, even the PC+.

Doc

Doc I have Credit Card in Hand but confused myself...

SVS has Sampson 1000 B Stock available. Question is I don't see a "dual" 20-39CS without the amp?

Which goes to Q2...
when you say twin does that imply dual as stated on the SV web site?

[Dr. Spec]

Yes, twin and dual are one in the same.

If you want the SVS01 Bass Box, you will need to run it this way:

1) AVR sub pre-out to SVS01 input

2) SVS01 "phased" output to S1000 Channel 1 input using RCA-1/4" interconnect

3) SVS01 SS filter set to 20 Hz

4) S1000 switch set to parallel

5) S1000 to dual CS+ via banana output connectors - the Better Cables speaker wire with the banana plugs and the spade connectors is a very nice addition here

Ask Ron Stimpson (or Erik K.) at SVS if they can swing a package deal with the following:

Dual 20-39CS+
Samson S1000 (B-Stock)
SVS01 Bass Box
Pro-Grade RCA-1/4" interconnect
Dual Better Cables 3M banana plug to spade speaker cables

Ask him to put his best price together on this package if he uses a B-Stock S1000 - tell him Ed Mullen recommended SVS to you. No promises, but if he offers $1700 or less, that would be a savings of almost $100 over what this package would normally cost.

Let me know how you make out. Nothing will prepare you for the change in your system - nothing. This is world class bass - depth, power, clarity, detail - everything.

[HBombToo]

Originally posted by Dr. Spec


Ask Ron Stimpson (or Erik K.) at SVS if they can swing a package deal with the following:

Dual 20-39CS+
Samson S1000 (B-Stock)
SVS01 Bass Box
Pro-Grade RCA-1/4" interconnect
Dual Better Cables 3M banana plug to spade speaker cables

Ask him to put his best price together on this package if he uses a B-Stock S1000 - tell him Ed Mullen recommended SVS to you. No promises, but if he offers $1700 or less, that would be a savings of almost $100 over what this package would normally cost.

Let me know how you make out. Nothing will prepare you for the change in your system - nothing. This is world class bass - depth, power, clarity, detail - everything.



Thanks Doc... I just ordered 1 sampson 1000 and 1 20 39 cs sub only since it was getting late. do you think it will be to late to adjust the order monday and try your contacts?

HBomb

[Dr. Spec]

Send them an email right now and ask for the package deal as described above and drop my name. Tell them you spoke with me and realized you were missing some items and wondered if they could amend the order and offer a package price:

rons@svsubwoofers.com
erik@svsubwoofers.com

I just noticed you only ordered a single CS sub - #1 I hope this was a CS PLUS and not a regular CS, and #2 you need dual dubs in this room, definitely.

Not to spend your money, but ordering the S1000 with only one sub is not the most cost effective approach. This passive sub with external amp only rivals the PC+ in value if you go with dual subs; otherwise the PC+ is a much better value as a single unit.

Doc

[HBombToo]

Doc... fyi for you
I wrote:

Sirs,
Mr. Ed Mullen recommended SV to me and after much thought and GREAT advice from Ed I decided to purchase a Subwoofer system from your company. The list of products below has been suggested by Ed and I'm curious regarding total package price would be? I believe I made an error in my onlineline orders, Number 8292 and 8293, and Hope we can resolve it easily. Order number 8292 is the Sampson Amp and 8293 is a 2039CS Plus.

Dual 20-39CS+
Samson S1000 (B-Stock)
SVS01 Bass Box
Pro-Grade RCA-1/4" interconnect
Dual Better Cables 3M banana plug to spade speaker cables

Best Regards
Henry Navaroli

[HBombToo]

Originally posted by Dr. Spec


I just noticed you only ordered a single CS sub - #1 I hope this was a CS PLUS and not a regular CS, and #2 you need dual dubs in this room, definitely.

Not to spend your money, but ordering the S1000 with only one sub is not the most cost effective approach. This passive sub with external amp only rivals the PC+ in value if you go with dual subs; otherwise the PC+ is a much better value as a single unit.

Doc

Doc... I really appreciate your time and advice regarding this matter. Also, I did order the SV20-39CS Plus but not dual I don't believe... I hope they can just add the additional harware and adjust my bill?

Regards
HBomb

[Dr. Spec]

Good work HBomb! They will fix the previous orders and consolidate them into one. If they ask, tell them you have a 6,000 ft3 room with cathedral ceilings and that's why I recommended dual subs.

Wow - big step, eh? You must be really excited! Hell - I'M excited for you! This is MOST excellent. Remember to co-locate the "twins" in a single corner for maximum benefit.

I'm gonna have a drink on you right now, Henry - you pounded this one clear out of the ballpark.

[HBombToo]

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
Good work HBomb! They will fix the previous orders and consolidate them into one. If they ask, tell them you have a 6,000 ft3 room with cathedral ceilings and that's why I recommended dual subs.

Wow - big step, eh? You must be really excited! Hell - I'M excited for you! This is MOST excellent. Remember to co-locate the "twins" in a single corner for maximum benefit.

I'm gonna have a drink on you right now, Henry - you pounded this one clear out of the ballpark.

Heres to ya my friend!!! I Owe ya 1 as I tip my glass of Merlot in recognician of your time and help...

Thanks a Bunch. Next step is calibrating and room response. I'll post the curves.

HBomb

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by HBombToo


Heres to ya my friend!!! I Owe ya 1 as I tip my glass of Merlot in recognician of your time and help...

Thanks a Bunch. Next step is calibrating and room response. I'll post the curves.

HBomb

If you haven't burned the CD yet, let me know and I'll send you one for the bass sweep. Also remember to use the RS correction factors. I can send you the custom Excel spreadsheet too, and even add a column for the RS correction factors so it includes it automatically. Let me know.

I'm hittin the sack - the Jim Beam just hit me.......I'll check this post in the a.m. and send you whatever you need either by snail mail or email.

[HBombToo]

Send them to hnavaroli@alamosapcs.com. My aol account cannot take the strain! I have received files as large as 5meg through our gateway so I'm sure it will pass.

Thanks
HBomb

[goingganzo]

hey dr spec is the cs or cs + have the driver like the stryke driver?

[Dr. Spec]

Henry:

I sent you a TON of stuff this morning. If you carefully read and study everything I sent, you will have no questions on set-up and calibration. It should go very smoothly. Stay in touch and keep me abreast of your order situation.

Ed

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by goingganzo
hey dr spec is the cs or cs + have the driver like the stryke driver?

The Styke AV12 driver is essentially the SVS Improved Standard Driver with the aluminum cone from the SVS Plus driver.

The SVS Plus driver (TC Sounds dB-12) is quite a bit more potent than the Stryke AV12 driver, in both xMax and Vd, and also the thermal power limits of the VC.

The dB12 is proprietary to SVS and cannot be purchased on the open market. A ton of R&D went into that driver. Below 30 Hz, it will outperform the AV12 by 5-6 dB in maximum output capability. The VC can handle almost 600 watts, and the Vd is around 2.7 liters.

This is not to say the AV12 is a bad driver - it's a GREAT driver, as is the SVS ISD.

Many companies companies use TC Sounds for their high performance woofers.

[goingganzo]

to bad svs dident make their new box sub front flirting. the cones on the av15 are sweet and the svs cones look similar and are real sweet when moveing. i just wish there was 2 things the bass box had was a on off switch and a on off light. i was told i can add one. but if i break it i have to pay for fixing it.

[faster100]

See that's what i'm talking about, a major purchase for Hbomb, Good going,
wow you better keep the young one from this setup.. that could cost a bit :)

I am glad my 4 year old never thought to be naughty with daddy's speakers :)

[faster100]

I still do like the Svs's,, Hey Spec so what's your discount after all these referrels to SVS :) they gotta be loving you!!!

That's ok keep up the good work, one day i may need the insider for a SVS sub, ah for my room maybe one of those mach mini display subs would work fine, 12x10x8 H' room.........

ya know like those mini camping tents they have for display purposes thats like 6" tall and 12" wide.... only in a svs sub

[HBombToo]

Originally posted by faster100

wow you better keep the young one from this setup.. that could cost a bit :)

I am glad my 4 year old never thought to be naughty with daddy's speakers :)

Good point and I figured at least the speakers are burried inside the tube... another reason to move away from the box design.

Thanks for the kind words and its going to take some time and effort to get it right.

a little over the original budget but I figure do the right thing now and I won't have regrets later. its kinda like expecting a Yugo to perform like a Benz....

HBomb

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by HBombToo


Good point and I figured at least the speakers are burried inside the tube... another reason to move away from the box design.

The bottom mounted downward firing woofer is accessible to prying fingers in the space between the baseplate the the tube bottom. According to SVS, the cone and surround are pretty durable, but it cannot be clearly inspected for damage unless you take the baseplate off. So keep the little one the heck out of that space.

Also, the top is protected with a removable grill, but obviously is open for the vents and spilled liquids can enter the sub and get all over the driver. So don't let anybody use them as drink holders at parties.

Did you hear back from SVS - Ron or Erik? Did they do $1700? I thought that was a fair price with the B-Stock amp.

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by faster100
I still do like the Svs's,, Hey Spec so what's your discount after all these referrels to SVS :) they gotta be loving you!!!

I just want to spread the good word. They definitely appreciate the referrals and the internet support, and they do give my referrals a break sometimes - but no guarantees. We trade emails at work and at home on occasion and they are SUPER guys over there at SVS.

Their singular mission in life is to impress the living hell out of every single customer and independent reviewer at the best possible price they can muster. The value of their products is unparalleled.

They didn't get into this business for the money - they got into it to raise the bar and spread their passion for world class bass - and they're succeeding. And I'm doing whatever I can to help because I believe so strongly in their products and their business ethic. Companies like SVS are EXCEEDINGLY rare.

[HBombToo]

Originally posted by Dr. Spec

Did you hear back from SVS - Ron or Erik? Did they do $1700? I thought that was a fair price with the B-Stock amp.


I have not heard anything yet... do they work the weekends?

HBomb

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by HBombToo


I have not heard anything yet... do they work the weekends?

HBomb

They work all the time. They are an e-company with employees living in different states. Ron lives in CO, Erik lives in NYC, and I suspect Tom V lives in Ohio where the subs are R&D'd and built.

People have reported getting reply emails from them at the oddest times due to the time zone changes, etc.

The stuff I sent you this morning crashed in your server I think - I got an error message. So I resent it without the zipped mp3 file. If you don't get the zipped file from the first attempt, let me know and I'll mail you a burned copy.

[HBombToo]

Ed, you are so right on this!!! Eric just called about 15 minutes ago and poof I had mail and it all worked out. The grand total came in at $1840 so not too far from what you thought but damn, what a company!!!!. If the subs work as good as you say with the support I have already received this is going to be 1 of the best purchases I have ever made.

I was in the office this morning and did not see an email or daemon so I'm not sure what happened. How big is the zipped file? We pass some really big stuff around but perhaps there a size limit from outside our company domain???

Thanks for all your help! BTW the black box is on back order but everything else should be shipped on Monday.

Regards
HBomb

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by HBombToo
Ed, you are so right on this!!! Eric just called about 15 minutes ago and poof I had mail and it all worked out. The grand total came in at $1840 so not too far from what you thought but damn, what a company!!!!. If the subs work as good as you say with the support I have already received this is going to be 1 of the best purchases I have ever made.

SVS has a well deserved reputation for unparalleled customer service. Erik just proved it - again.

I'm assuming that total includes shipping. I was not including shipping when I gave my estimate, and since they are shipping at least 3 separate heavy packages, I wouldn't be surprised if shipping was $100. If so, my guess was pretty close.

I will stake my reputation (FWIW) on the line: This WILL be the best purchase you have ever made.

Ed

[HBombToo]

Originally posted by Dr. Spec


I was not including shipping when I gave my estimate, and since they are shipping at least 3 separate heavy packages, I wouldn't be surprised if shipping was $100. If so, my guess was pretty close.

I will stake my reputation (FWIW) on the line: This WILL be the best purchase you have ever made.

Ed

Thats why I didn't even blink.

I'm stoked about this whole sub thing!

Thanks again.

Henry

[goingganzo]

i think when i got the amp and bass box/cabble shiped was about 22 bucks from ohio to detroit

to help you with the setup i have my gains on the recever set to -1 and the gain on the amp to 5/8 and the gain on the bass box to 4.

i first set the gain on the amp to 5/8 then i ajusted the bass box till i got referance. and the subs i run are 88.5 db hope this helps.

[Dr. Spec]

Bryan, you should be running the Samson at full gain. Reduce the bass box and/or LFE level in the AVR to compensate and recalibrate. The Samson is designed to be run at full gain.

[goingganzo]

i have allways ran power amps in my car at 3/4 gain and used the head to turn it up and down. but i will try it with the samson turned up. so i should use a less powerfull sigonal and let the amp do more work.

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by goingganzo
i have allways ran power amps in my car at 3/4 gain and used the head to turn it up and down. but i will try it with the samson turned up. so i should use a less powerfull sigonal and let the amp do more work.

Correct - the Samson owner's manual says it. This is a touring amp and the gain control is absolute, not relative. You cannot drive the Samson to it's full power output unless it is set at full gain.

This is not the case with the typical plate amp, so everyone else ignore this comment. This is only particular to the Samson S1000 amp.

[goingganzo]

thanks dr.