Need soundproofing advice...

[rs159]

Ok, maybe not "off-topic", but this doesn't really fit anywhere else.
I will soon be moving all of my gear into the basement :) ,but there is a problem. The family room is directly above where the HT will be, and my family likes their tv LOUD!!!!! You can hear it all through the basement. :mad: The walls are very solid and soundproof, but that wretched ceiling.. UGH! Luckily, it's only a drop in ceiling so making changes should be easy. What material would work best to isolate the two environments without making everything to dead? Preferable material would be replacement 2'x4' ceiling tile just b/c my ass is lazy and I don't want anything that should be too much work. Also, a removeable ceiling should make wiring jobs rediculously easy. Also must be relatively cheap.

Suggestions? Anybody?

[Jstas]

Hang fiberglas insulation between the ceiling tiles and the floor above. You can hang it with wires and staples between the floor joists. It will deaden sound and keep the temperature in the two rooms much more stable.

[rs159]

Oh, I forgot to mention - there's allready insul in there (keeps temperature seperate but sound? no way) Perhaps it should be replaced?

[RuSsMaN]

Staying cheap, thats going to be hard.

A boatload of Dynamat would work, I have seen some spray-on dynamat-type stuff out there. I'll see if I can find a link.

Cheers,
Russ

[Ceruleance]

spray on? sounds like a gimic, you need mass to make good soundproofing

[Ceruleance]

hmm, seems to have a following on ebay, I withdraw my previous statement, if it works, it works

[rs159]

Dynamat - does it deaden the sound of a room too much? I use my system music/movies - 90/10, so I don't want to make the room sound overly dry and synthetic for music.

[dthomps]

Hey- along the lines of dynamat- for my old 240 volvo beast, dynamat makes kits to deaden road noise becasue there is virtually no soundproofing. I took the reccomendation from a volvo forum and used concrete roofing material- which is virtually identical to dynamat in look ( I dont know about functionality) and it works wonders. It is wayyyyyy cheaper too. The dynamat kit was something like 90$ and I did it myself for like 15 bucks.

[goingganzo]

we used a fire bat that is also a sound proofer. it is dencer than fiberglass and itches twice as bad but works great.

[Tour2ma]

Originally posted by rs159
Oh, I forgot to mention - there's allready insul in there (keeps temperature seperate but sound? no way) Perhaps it should be replaced?
If the existing insulation is between the fam room's floor and basement ceiling's drywall, then the sound goes right around it through the beams. (Sound actually loves the denser media).

If you have room, drop an Armstrong (or other) drop ceiling in the basement. The banding that holds it can't carry much, and the tiles and insulation will go far towards killing the sound, even if it’s only a 6" space. Acoustical tile stapled to the existing ceiling is a less effective option.

[madmax]

I've never really looked into this because I hate drop ceilings anyway but how about screwing a layer of drywall to the joists then putting the tiles back up? Some people screw on the drywall then add sand from the upper floor but that would be a real hassle and the sand is meant to help reduce bass energy. I have heard that higher freq such as from a tv can be muffled pretty easily with soft foam. Maybe some of those cheap foam bedding foams laying on top of the drop tiles?
madmax

[mantis]

Isn't dynamat a car product??
Anyway I'm going to use acoustiblox.I have installed it many times and the shit works well.It's heavy dense rubber.You can buy it in rolls.Expensive but well worth it.

www.acoustiblox.com

[rs159]

I really think anything that replaced, sit on top of, whatever... the tile ceiling would be more effective since very little of it would actually be touching the upper floor, so it transfers less energy. By the way, the tv has some midbass performance, and the system in the basement would certainly have a lot more low end punch and rumble, so bass damping is a must.

[madmax]

This morning on a home improvement radio talk show they were talking about little s shaped thingys that you used when putting up drywall which isolates vibration. I have no clue how they are used or what they look like but it might be worth checking into.
madmax

[Tour2ma]

rs, sorry to disagree, but the beams are the real issue here.

Yes, max... I remember these isolators now as well. Ones I have seen were not "S's", but more of a sponge rubber grommet. Basically anything that keeps the surface of the drywall from touching the beams will work...

One downside of the drop ceiling I did not mention earlier is that they can create "buzz and rattle" issues themselves. This is especially around light fixtures. So while they'd solve the upstairs issue, they can create listening room issues. Solvable, but pesky..

[rs159]

Actually, all of the light fixtures I will be taking out and instead using wall mounted lights. They will look better in the room I think. And did I make myself clear? The drop in ceiling allready exists, in time and space and in 3 dimensions. It works, kinda - even when the tv is on loud, words are hard to make out from in the basement, but there is definately a considerable amount of bass leakage. Think about it, if the little 5 inch speakers in the tv can be heard through the ceiling, what would an SVS 20-39 be like? That's why I'm worried about maximum bass damping between the two rooms.

[Tour2ma]

rs,
Sorry... somehow I got it my head that you had a solid ceiling affixed to the beams... re-read and clearly not the case... wasn’t you it was me... :rolleyes: So now that I am close to being on the right page, a couple more questions…

On the drop ceiling… How is its metal frame attached to the beams? Straps? Screwed? Other?

You say there is already insulation. Is it lying on the 12x24 ceiling panels? Stapled to the floor above? Other?

How big is the gap between the panels and the floor above and is the whole of it filled with insulation?

[rs159]

-The frame just hangs from the beams from wire looped thru the holes in the frame
-In insul is stapled to the beams
-I measured ~9 inches between the floor above and the bottom of the insul. The ceiling hangs ~2.5 - 3 inches below the insul

[Tour2ma]

Wow... I gotta get me some of those TV speakers... ;)

Little baffled at this point, but the combo of my raging sinus infection, sinus med's and about four large Amareto's and coffee aren't helping. Think I'll sleep on it.

There are some good suggestions above.

[rs159]

The tv is a floorstanding model (the tube is built into the cabinet, the woofers are in the cabinet about 6" from the ground, and the cabinet is real wood). So I wonder if just getting the tv up on something to dampen its low frequencies would help. It also makes me wonder if a subwoofer on a concrete floor in a room with cinderblock walls would transfer that much energy to the rest of the house. But then again, hearing "turn that damn thing down" makes me want to act violently and curse like a drunken sailor so...

[rs159]

I take back what I just said. I put the woofer in the basement 5 minutes ago and all I can say is :supermad: :supermad: :supermad: :supermad: :supermad: . After a little hap-hazard speaker placement, upstairs, anything that wasn't nailed down was rattling. AND THIS WAS WITH THE PSW202!!!!. My final setup will include two psw202s and an svs 20-39. Also, I didn't have any other speakers hooked up, and the crossover on the sub was set as high as it would go. The midrange, even from the sub, got through to the room above. It's gonna take some serious soundproofing to make this workable. :supermad: :supermad: :supermad: BTW, any modifications have to be made from in the basement. Going in from the floor above is something my family doesn't want to be inconvenienced by. :mad:

[rs159]

BTW, the ceiling tiles vibrate and make noise when the hit the frame. How do you stop that?

[rs159]

Originally posted by mantis
Isn't dynamat a car product??
Anyway I'm going to use acoustiblox.I have installed it many times and the shit works well.It's heavy dense rubber.You can buy it in rolls.Expensive but well worth it.

www.acoustiblox.com
the link doesn't work and i can't find anything on the web, but I'm beginning to think that might be the best option. Tell me more. How is it attatched? Does it prevent bass leakage? Is there anything else like it?

[Tour2ma]

Here's a bit that fell out of a search on acoustics I just did:

Here are two orgs that look promising:
http://www.acoustics.org/
http://asa.aip.org/acou_and_you.html

Here are two manf’s:
http://www.acousticsystems.com/
http://www.acousticsfirst.com/

Still way ill, but on antibiotics at least... hang in there...

[MxStYlEpOlKmAn]

y would u want to soundproof your walls or ceiling or nething? my neighbors came in my mom's store today saying they are tired of hearing this constant thump...I LOVE THIS JUNK MAN! THUMP D THUMP THUMP!

[rs159]

B/C my family isn't so tolerant. I want to listen at realistic volumes, and I don't want to hear "TURN THAT GODDAMN THING DOWN" every 15 minutes. It isn't for my neighbors or my family, it's for me.

[hoosier21]

RS

Man you have a real tough problem here. Stopping bass from transfering though the whole house is very hard, the room right above you is even harder to isolate. I can see the dampning material suggested above helping in the mid to high area, but stopping the bass will be nearly impossible. Think of the car driving by your house and how much of the bass energy from it makes it into your house. Now think of your SVS firing away in the basement, right below your family, oh man they are not only going to hear it but FEEL it.

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by hoosier21
Now think of your SVS firing away in the basement, right below your family, oh man they are not only going to hear it but FEEL it.

Yes, it's bad news - mine rattles stuff all over the house at high volumes. The floor above is especially bad - it vibrates heavily during strong passages. It has even cracked open drywall joints in other rooms, and once caused a light upstairs to unplug itself from the wall.

I think you're fighting a losing battle. I think you might need to call a truce with the family and agree to times the HT system is in use and times they can watch TV upstairs.

BTW - Hoosier - I put a care package in the mail this morning coming your way - something about the Boss and Charleston, SC ;)

Doc

[hoosier21]

Cool, I like packages :)

[rs159]

All I want is to listen at something more than 60db. I don't care if I can't hit 120db w/ the family in the house, I just don't want to be banned to the headphones.

[rs159]

Maybe bass shakers or butt kickers or whatever would make the system seem louder without actually turning it up that much? I know it can't compare to actually hearing a loud sound, but I need to be able to listen whenever I want. I can't stand listening to something and being interupted or not being able to listen when I want to so I need that kind of freedom.

[rs159]

Once my system is complete I will have an extra receiver that's 50watt rms at 8ohm and 105watt dynamic at 8 ohm both channels driven from 20hz - 20khz and it's 4 ohm stable and I dont know what to do with it so I could use it for the bass shaker amp if it has enough power. Or should I use a more powerfull amp? I'm not very familiar with bass shakers, all I know is it's just a linear electric motor that works like a passive sub only it's main purpose in life is to shake things. Advice? Suggestions?

[Tour2ma]

Check here...

http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7355

[rs159]

1000 watts? damn...

[RuSsMaN]

How about isolation?

Thick, solid slate or some such. No, it won't kill the bass volume, but maybe we should be looking at isolating the sub from the rest of the room, if the transfer through the room is the real issue.

Anyone? Bueller?

Cheers,
Rooster

[rs159]

The sub sits on solid concrete. 3 of the walls are part of the foundation and the other wall is wood and steel. I don't think a little piece of slate will help much.

[Tour2ma]

Originally posted by rs159
1000 watts? damn...
The deeper you go, the more omph it takes.
What did the earlier links I posted tell you?

[RuSsMaN]

Spike em'. I know I'm reaching here, but don't knock it 'till you've tried it. I hate to see you give up the goose, due to what appears to be a volume issue, not xfer (based on your crete floor).

Cheers,
Rooster

[rs159]

Originally posted by Tour2ma

The deeper you go, the more omph it takes.
What did the earlier links I posted tell you?

I know, I know. Bass takes more effort to create and more effort to stop it once it's created. Mother nature's a bitch, isn't she?

[HBombToo]

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Spike em'.
Cheers,
Rooster

How do you decouple base with spikes???

I'm not fireing from all cylinders here so help me out Russ.

Evil Twin

[rs159]

Russ, why spike on a hard floor? Sorry if that's a stupid question, but it just doesn't make sense.

[RuSsMaN]

C'mon guys, why spike on ANY floor? Back to basics, why spike any speaker? Isolation.

Like I said, I'm reaching at this point, but if the isolation 'base' (anyone seen my baseball?) is covered, the issue lies elsewhere.

Cheers,
Rooster

[rs159]

The issue is that houses are built like crap and anything louder than average conversation you can hear all thru the house. It's probably right up there on every audiphile's / ht enthusiast's / teenager's parent's top 10 list of what's wrong with where they live.

[RuSsMaN]

Not all houses Cochise. ;)

I can sit in my mancave and listen at 95+db peaks, and the wife can read in the bedroom, and not hear a peep. All in a 1960 ft sq abode.

These kind of issues can be addressed, it's just a matter of extent based on the surroundings. Not saying it can be 100% solved in your case, but some minor or major tweeks have got to yield *some* improvement.

Cheers,
Rooster

[Tour2ma]

Agree Russ, but is the bedroom adjacent to the “mancave”?

Also was reflecting on your earlier spike comment. I had never related their use to isolation before, but yeah, pointed tips minimize contact area and therefore vibration transmission. The ones my big Polks came with were recommended for use if the speakers are placed on carpet. Speaker stability was the purpose. In this case though I doubt spikes would help. The acoustic energy output of the sub, renders the mechanical energy (vibration) output negligible, at least it should...

rs,
Let me undo a little damage I may have done earlier on. My drop ceiling advice was clearly not the best. As others have said (and believe it or not, I know), bass is nearly impossible to kill through absorption. Mid’s and high’s --- easy. Bass --- tough, very, very tough. Clearly it’s passing through your existing ceiling like it wasn’t there.

I think it boils down to 3 choices: let it go (problem is that this is your problem), kill it (problem is you can’t), or reflect it. This is doable. Your walls and floors are doing it now (could be part of the problem). MDF or other dense materials may be needed for a new ceiling, possibly coupled with energy isolation “bushings” mentioned earlier in the thread.

RonP or some of the other HT room builders might be able to offer some materials suggestions. Also check out the links posted earlier and good luck…

I also still go back to the sand idea, which would also help. I keep going back for two different images:
1.) the sand “dancing” in the crawl space; and
2.) the sand leaking through cracks in the ceiling like a bad cave-in scene on “Bonanza”… :)

[rs159]

I don't really favor the sand idea b/c it just seems like way too much mess and matinence. I was thinking about it today (shoveling snow off a roof for 3 hours sure gives one a lot of time to think...) and I came to the conclusion that something really heavy and dense suspended in space with little contact to the floor above would work the best. All I need to figure out now is something to build it from and how to build it. Then this little adventure here will finally be over.