[Help Needed] Pioneer 1018 vs ice amp sc-05/07 [Archive]

polkapolka

03-31-2009, 11:07 AM

I was thinking to upgrade from the Pioneer 1018 to the SC-07/05
I was wondering would it be a better sound to upgrade to a 5 channel amp?
or go to the SC-07 I keep hearing the 1018 is the same as the elite -01
so all your help is greatly apreaciated
Thanks

I am also looking for information on this. It is one thing to look at the specs, but another to get the scoop from those in the know.

Thanks for asking this question, as I look forward to hearing on this as well.

Matt

Pedler

03-31-2009, 11:10 AM

Maybe the guru's will give us the lowdown:D

Marty913

03-31-2009, 11:27 AM

Welcome to the Club Pedler. I think it's an interesting question on where to put your money. You will probably get a lot of opinions (buy the ICE will be popular) but ultimately it may boil down to what problem you are trying to solve or what goal you are trying to accomplish.

Realistically the SC05 will cost you about $900 - $1000 and you may be able to sell the 1018 for $300 (they are going for $380 new). So what does $600 - $700 buy you? It certainly buys you a decent start on a separate amp. I guess the question is whether the 1018 is under-powered for your speaker, or whether you don't like the sound of the 1018.

I suspect the sound of the 1018 when used as a pre-amp is similar to the SC05/07 so if you don't like the sound now, you may not like it later - although with an outboard amp the sound will change somewhat.

If the issue is power but you like the sound, then the SC05/07 may solve that problem. Of course if you really like the sound, then an outboard amp may be the better choice. Tough call really and probably only definitively answered by someone who has a 1018 (or similar). There are a few of the members that are moving from the 10xx series to the SC series so maybe they can shed some light.

"Better sound" is a pretty individual thing. My vote would be that IF you like the sound of the 1018 and the issue is power, spend the money on a separate amp and go separates. The 1018 has a lot of the features of the SC series. It's not like the 1018 is an outdated receiver - it just came out last June and gets good reviews.

If you prefer the single-package approach but would like a little more power and a few more features like Media Gallery, then go with the SC05 (or 07). You didn't mention what type of speakers you are driving or what your environment is (movies, 2-channel, etc.).

Anyway, I think it's a good question and one that a lot of people with entry-level receivers might be asking themselves. I'm not sure there's a one-size-fits-all answer.

Falcon01

03-31-2009, 11:50 AM

When I purchased my VSX-01 a couple of days ago I asked this same question. There is a slight difference here in Toronto whereas the VSX-01 costs $700 plus tax (best price I could get by far) and the cheapest I could get the SC-05 was $1700 plus tax. A $1000 price difference for me.

I was thinking of buying the SC-05 because of some very positive reviews but the sales rep at my local electronics store (a high end store, not a Bestbuy) told me I would be better off getting the VSX-01 and spending the extra cash on an external amp. He was certain I would get better sound this way than going with the SC-05. Of course it depends in WHICH external amp I got but let me tell you...for $1000 I can buy some pretty good 5 channel and even 7 channel amps on the used market.

It depends on what u want like others have mentioned but I would definitely entertain looking at used amps in your area and see what prices they can be had for.

metal83

03-31-2009, 01:21 PM

Realistically the SC05 will cost you about $900 - $1000 and you may be able to sell the 1018 for $300 (they are going for $380 new).

Just an FYI.....

The SC-05 can be had brand new from an Authorized Dealer for $699.
http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?rcvr71ch&1243353132

The SC-07 was going for $899 through the same company when I bought mine a couple weeks ago, but it seems they raised the price to $999 now.
http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?rcvr71ch&1243354552

The company posting these Videogon adds is Hi-Fi Heaven in Green Bay, WI.
You can also look them up on the Pioneer website to confirm they are an authorized dealer.

Anyway, to the OP, good luck in whatever you choose to do.

Marty913

03-31-2009, 02:15 PM

Just an FYI.....
The SC-05 can be had brand new from an Authorized Dealer for $699.
http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?rcvr71ch&1243353132
The SC-07 was going for $899 through the same company when I bought mine a couple weeks ago, but it seems they raised the price to $999 now.
http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?rcvr71ch&1243354552
The company posting these Videogon adds is Hi-Fi Heaven in Green Bay, WI.
You can also look them up on the Pioneer website to confirm they are an authorized dealer.

I had heard this ends today because the Pioneer mfg rebate to dealers was ending - plus I was wondering whether this company will ship anywhere in the US or whether the 200 miles from the dealer would come into play ??? Just curious and hated to quote that price without knowing.

metal83

03-31-2009, 02:24 PM

I had heard this ends today because the Pioneer mfg rebate to dealers was ending - plus I was wondering whether this company will ship anywhere in the US or whether the 200 miles from the dealer would come into play ??? Just curious and hated to quote that price without knowing.

I haven't heard anything about it ending today, but then again I already have one so I haven't really been paying much attention to the sales.

I'm quite a bit farther than 200 miles from them, and they shipped to me with no problem or hesitation. Quite a few other people I've talked to have ordered from them as well from various parts of the country.

leroyjr1

03-31-2009, 02:29 PM

I was lucky enough to only live an hour away. I didn't have to pay shipping but I did have to pay sales tax. Give them a call and ask for Will.

Marty913

03-31-2009, 02:52 PM

I haven't heard anything about it ending today, but then again I already have one so I haven't really been paying much attention to the sales.

I'm quite a bit farther than 200 miles from them, and they shipped to me with no problem or hesitation. Quite a few other people I've talked to have ordered from them as well from various parts of the country.

I don't know for sure either but have seen it mentioned in other forums. I don't want to start any panics because I have no idea whether it's true or not. I do know that Pioneer has a huge dealer rebate on some products that started Feb 1st and ends Mar. 31st. I have no idea whether the receiver line is involved. I guess we'll find out tomorrow.

Thanks for answering the 200 mile question. I had wondered about that since I don't have an Elite dealer locally.

apphd

03-31-2009, 03:52 PM

Welcome to the Club Pedler. I think it's an interesting question on where to put your money. You will probably get a lot of opinions (buy the ICE will be popular) but ultimately it may boil down to what problem you are trying to solve or what goal you are trying to accomplish. ..........."Better sound" is a pretty individual thing. .........
+1

I think the only way to answer this would be to determine what your goal is as Marty has said, then go listen to an ICE unit. Also to be fair I would try to borrow an amp and hook it up to my 1018 to see what that sounds like.

It's always a tough call when looking at an AVR lineup, to determine if the step up in price is for features, power, or design that may improve SQ. IMHO for most manufactures 3 or 4 models will share the same topography and components in design and as you step up you get features and questionably more power. For power it is at least a higher stated output, but many times it is only 10 or so amps and is accomplished with the same identical amp/power supply, so you really are not getting much there.

But as you move up there usually is a point where you cross over to better grade components and design that can improve SQ, but depending on the weakest link in the rest of your system may not be noticeable.

It is good to ask for opinions (which this is all I am giving) you may even get some from someone that has had, or listened to both. But that was their ears and probably a different set up than yours, so it still comes down to you needing to get your ears on one to decide if it's right for you.

and Welcome to CP

mantis

03-31-2009, 04:55 PM

Pedler

03-31-2009, 06:02 PM

Pedler

03-31-2009, 06:24 PM

At that price ($699, $999) Maybe i should take the jump.

I guess with my speakers I feel that they are underpowered I am not sure when you turn them up to 0db they get really harsh sounding. and all jumbled i guess distorted sounding.

Marty913

03-31-2009, 06:49 PM

Wow, Thanks to all for all the replies,
Mantis, My system is Klipsch RF-5 and RC-7 center for my fronts
and the surrounds. Thanks

I will say that those tend to be pretty bright speakers (metal dome woofers & tweeter + horn). They are fairly efficient although Klipsch' rating of 99db efficient is @ 2.83 volt / 1 meter might be a little distorted (isn't it supposed to be measured at 1 volt / 1 meter ?). They are 8 ohm. How loud is 0 db on that Pioneer??

The SC05 will give you 25-30% more power but I doubt it will change the tonal characteristics over the 1018. If it's a mismatch between the speakers & the receiver, it won't so anything but make "worse" sound louder.

Borrowing an amp (or a friend's receiver) might help answer the question. Maybe even dragging your receiver over to a friend's house and trying it with his speakers might help.

Pedler

03-31-2009, 07:11 PM

I had them hooked up to a power amp and they sound a lot better but I guess I felt the SC amps would be better due to more power and better DAC's

Marty913

03-31-2009, 07:41 PM

I had them hooked up to a power amp and they sound a lot better but I guess I felt the SC amps would be better due to more power and better DAC's

Was the power amp connected to the Pioneer 1018 or to another receiver? How powerful was the amp? I guess it could be partly power related, and maybe even DAC-related depending on how everything was connected. The SC's do have more headroom plus more raw power than the 1018 does. I know the DAC's in the SC07/09 are different than the 1018 but not sure about the SC-05. I know in general the components are higher quality in the Elite line but the 1018 came pretty close to the Elite 01.

If you can sell your 1018 for $300 and buy an 05 for $700, it might be worth the chance (depends on what $400 means to you). The again, looking in the Flea Market for a good amp may still be the way to go.

mantis

03-31-2009, 08:07 PM

Wow, Thanks to all for all the replies,

Mantis, My system is Klipsch RF-5 and RC-7 center for my fronts.
and the surrounds.

I guess I am trying to squeeze out as much as i can out of these speakers.

Thanks
Well assuming bright is not your taste, you might wanna check out a Denon avr3808ci. This would make a nice match to calm down those Klipsch and give you enough power to drive your head into the wall.

If you want a better sounding Pioneer then the Ice amps SC-05 or SC-07 would fit the bill. They have a much better sound. The vsx01txh is a very nice earned my respect receiver but it doesn't hold any candles to the SC's. It would be worth going with a better receiver over adding amps. Amps will not give you better sound quality. it will sound exaclty like your receiver does now not to mention you don't need mad power to drive those speakers. You need a better preamp section, the SC's will give you that.

Dan

Pedler

03-31-2009, 09:05 PM

cnh

03-31-2009, 09:16 PM

Denons are great receivers, it's just that this ICE-power amplification is a technological innovation; don't write off Denons. But if you want the latest and greatest do listen to the Pioneer and decide what 'you' think!

Pedler

03-31-2009, 09:46 PM

The problem is i can't get to here them side by side. on the same speakers
Plus you can get the pioneer sc-07 for much less than the Denon equal 4308

If the Denon is giving better sound quality, then I wouldn't mind paying extra but it doesn't seem so.

It seems from reviews that the Pioneer is better...Unless I am reading it wrong. If I am please let me know...or is this a synergy thing.:confused:

dpowell

03-31-2009, 10:51 PM

I was wondering something similar. How does the SC-07 AVR rate against a separate HT pre-amp like Outlaw or B&K that have been for sale on the classifieds thread? If a person already has a separate amp and had the choice between the two at similar price points, what are the pros and cons to each?

cnh

03-31-2009, 11:07 PM

Pedler, DPowell,

Do a search to find Mantis's REVIEW thread on the Pioneer 07, I think. He addresses a lot of your questions there. In the end though, an audition is probably in order. Can't remember the title to the thread or I would link it here.

cnh

mantis

04-01-2009, 08:20 AM

Thanks Mantis That is what I think i wanted to hear. I don't crank it up all the time ( I don't want to go deaf) but i want a better/a clearer sound. I guess the SC-07 is my best bet.

I guess from your other posts, I get the impression the Denons may not be the best
due to QC. issues.
Quality control issues is really the only thing I find wrong with Denon. Features , sound quality are all top notch with Denon products. But as most ou have to match them correctly. Denon is not very dynamic. They don't have a lot of dynamic range. But with your Klipsch speakers, this is not a problem. They go very well together.

I prefer Pioneer Elite over Denon all day long. I find there sound quality to match a wider range of speakers and have better dynamic range. The new ICE models really stepped up there game. I find them to be the best sounding AVR's on the market today. I would love to do a shootout with Rotel and Nad for sound quality. Even the B&K avr707 I would love to put the SC-07 up against for sound quality. I bet it would be a lot closer then most would expect. I'm done not expecting the SC-07 to perform. It has met and exceeded all my wishes. Very nice and I have really nothing bad to say about it. There are a few things I would prefer but that would be personal and picky.
Go read my review on the SC-07 which replaced a Rotel rsp1068 which I hold in high reguard.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80499

Dan

Pedler

04-02-2009, 11:18 PM

Thank You Metal83 and Mantis for all your Help.

And thanks to everyone also that posted.

I ordered The SC-07 today from your link Metal83 and they already shiped it.
I got a tracking number and everthing.:eek::D
Wow These guys are great.

I will post once I get it. ( Future ICE CLUB member) :D

Grimster74

04-02-2009, 11:56 PM

Well, guess there is no reason to give my Denon 3808 vs. Pioneer Elite SC-07 then. Welcome to the club.

Rob

Grimster74

04-02-2009, 11:57 PM

Oh yeah, should have my Denon vs. Pioneer up sometime this weekend.

Rob

metal83

04-03-2009, 12:18 AM

No problem Pedler...:D

Congrats on the purchase!
Now comes the fun part...........waiting! :eek: lol

doggie750

04-03-2009, 12:23 AM

vijayl

04-03-2009, 12:26 AM

When I started my journey in Audio in Nov 2008, I thot I wud get a very good receiver, so that I don't have to upgrade again and I bot Onkyo 805. Here I'm after 5 month - sold and ordered ICE SC-07. I went to Magnolia before buying and I like it. I may get it early next week..
Thanks Dan for spreading the ICE fever - I love u and I hate u.
Rob, Denon is def good and its personal (even ICE for that matter). If u really want a head-on I think some ICE-guy in Virginia wud always be ready :)

Pedler

04-03-2009, 01:24 AM

Well, guess there is no reason to give my Denon 3808 vs. Pioneer Elite SC-07 then. Welcome to the club.

Rob

Grimster74 I would still like to here what you think about the 3808 vs sc-07
Please post when you have them up and running.

olilugo

04-06-2009, 12:59 PM

pedler, did you ever get your SC-07? how does it compare to the 1018?

Falcon01

04-06-2009, 02:32 PM

Olilugo, I noticed the you have a 1018 hooked up to a Sunfire amp. I have an Elite VSX-01 (very similar to the 1018) and I was thinking of getting a Sunfire amp to hook it up to also.

SO...my question is...was there a NOTICEABLE improvement in sound clarity when you hooked up the Sunfire to the 1018 or was it just for the added power?

Pedler

04-07-2009, 01:09 AM

pedler, did you ever get your SC-07? how does it compare to the 1018?

I would like to thank all of you again for all your help moving to the SC-07 AKA ICE CLUB

Ok, To start I purchased through Videogon (Rand) and I ordered on the 6th in the afternoon and it was shipped out through UPS and Arrived today at 6:00pm :D ( It would have been here sooner but It was the weekend)

http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.p...1ch&1243354552
I am very happy to say He was very professional and answered all questions that I had It was shipped as stated New in Box.
I would not hesitate to order from them again!!!:D

Ok, My initial impressions are... Mantis has understated the difference in the sound quality between the SC and the regular line. ( Then again I am going from the 1018 to the SC)

2 channel setup:
It sounds so clean and clear. The bass high's mids... Its clean and clear and the little details I can make out that I didn't before. Yet it is not Bright sounding. It sounds Very good!

You can still here all the notes even when it gets complicated... There is no going back.

This was the sound quality that I wanted. :D

mantis

04-07-2009, 07:59 AM

I would like to thank all of you again for all your help moving to the SC-07 AKA ICE CLUB

Ok, To start I purchased through Videogon (Rand) and I ordered on the 6th in the afternoon and it was shipped out through UPS and Arrived today at 6:00pm :D ( It would have been here sooner but It was the weekend)

http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.p...1ch&1243354552
I am very happy to say He was very professional and answered all questions that I had It was shipped as stated New in Box.
I would not hesitate to order from them again!!!:D

Ok, My initial impressions are... Mantis has understated the difference in the sound quality between the SC and the regular line. ( Then again I am going from the 1018 to the SC)

2 channel setup:
It sounds so clean and clear. The bass high's mids... Its clean and clear and the little details I can make out that I didn't before. Yet it is not Bright sounding. It sounds Very good!

You can still here all the notes even when it gets complicated... There is no going back.

This was the sound quality that I wanted. :D

It's a very good receiver. it's amazing how good it sounds. I feel it can compare to some lower end separates. it's that good.

Dan

olilugo

04-07-2009, 11:50 AM

It's a very good receiver. it's amazing how good it sounds. I feel it can compare to some lower end separates. it's that good.

Dan

Hey Dan,

what do you consider lower end separates?

Rotel,
Marantz
NAD
B&K
Sunfire
Parasound
Arcam

On the fence:
Emotiva
Outlaw
Sherwood Newcastle

Hi end:
Cary cinema
Anthem
Classe
Mcintosh
LINN
Jeff Rowland
Krell
Bel canto
Musical Fidelity