7.1 Multi-Channels setup and Preout

[polkatese]

Guys,
I need your insights on the optimal configurations. My Rotel rsx-1065 has 7 mch inputs, that include 1 Center Back (CB) input, in addition to the usual (FL,FR,CE,SL,SR,SUB). Question: what would be the use of CB input on MC playback (perhaps because I haven't stumble into 6.1 SACD/DVD-A players nor 6.1 recording)?

Second situation, the Pre Out of this unit has CB1,CB2,CE1,CE2,SUB1,SUB2,FL,FR,SL,SR. Question: CB1 and CB2, are they identical output? the same with SUB1/2 and CE1/2? Sorry if this sound too obvious for some, but I am trying to understand if this is more of a convenient features to simplify interconnects hookups for multi sub/multi center/multi surround backs speakers, or if there is actually different audio contents for each (other than subs, since I believe that there is no difference between sub 1/2 content). Thanks in advance for your comments...fh

[mantis]

Man that was a mouthful.I'll break it all down for yeah Bro.
My Rotel rsx-1065 has 7 mch inputs, that include 1 Center Back (CB) input, in addition to the usual (FL,FR,CE,SL,SR,SUB). Question: what would be the use of CB input on MC playback (perhaps because I haven't stumble into 6.1 SACD/DVD-A players nor 6.1 recording)?
You will find more and more ext in(in your case,your unit is labeled multi input) inputs configured this way.No one really knows what the future will bring so alot of companies are prepairing for it.........if thats possible.Thats what the cb1 input if for.At the current time, no SACD or DVD AUDIO player uses 7.1 or 6.1 outputs.
Second situation, the Pre Out of this unit has CB1,CB2,CE1,CE2,SUB1,SUB2,FL,FR,SL,SR. Question: CB1 and CB2, are they identical output? the same with SUB1/2 and CE1/2?
Ok I see why your confused here.The cb1 and cb2 preouts are for surround back playback.They are mono outs meaning if you want to use 1 or 2 surround back channels,Rotel allows you to do so.sub1 and sub2 are also Identical.Center 1 center 2....same thing my man.The Rotel allows you also to run 2 center channels external amps required,and 2 powered subs.Sweet.No splitters needed for analog out......cool.
Relax my friend.Read or re read the manual.Rotel does a fine job on the manual.
On the back of the rsx1065,there is also a keypad input,rs232(labeled computer I/O,triggers for lowering screens ,turning on power supplies,and IR routing.Rotel is custom friendly.
They even throw in 2 switched outlets that also can be used as triggers.
The easy to hookup layout of the back of the Rotel rsx1065 is really thought out.I love the way they spread the binding posts out and even color them....above simple red and black......good deal.
O sorry, back to what YOU where talking about.All you need my friend to experience surroundback is the rb1050 power amp.Matching innerconnects(to what you use in the system)a pair of mono speakers(lsi7's are perfect)speaker wire and a DVD recorded in 6.1
Now in your menu's,you need to turn on 7.1 speakers set to small,test tone away and your off.
Dude you own a fine receiver and I don't think you should upgrade anytime soon from it.This is what I would suggest you do is buy the rb1050 and a pair of lsi7's and play my man.I'll help you with anything you need.
Any yes dammit I love that receiver..........take good care of her.;)

[polkatese]

Originally posted by mantis
On the back of the rsx1065,there is also a keypad input,rs232(labeled computer I/O,triggers for lowering screens ,turning on power supplies,and IR routing.Rotel is custom friendly.
They even throw in 2 switched outlets that also can be used as triggers.
All you need my friend to experience surroundback is the rb1050 power amp.Matching innerconnects(to what you use in the system)a pair of mono speakers(lsi7's are perfect)speaker wire and a DVD recorded in 6.1
Now in your menu's,you need to turn on 7.1 speakers set to small,test tone away and your off.
Dude you own a fine receiver and I don't think you should upgrade anytime soon from it.This is what I would suggest you do is buy the rb1050 and a pair of lsi7's and play my man.I'll help you with anything you need.
Any yes dammit I love that receiver..........take good care of her.;)

Dan,
thanks for your comments....I noticed one thing since I bought it, the LSi15 and the Rotel seems to developing even "more" synergy. I have to say, after about 100 hours listening to them, the sound stage and bass got much better. Now, I don't know if this is strictly because of breaking in, since I've been upgrading the stock power cord with signalcable magicpower. What I did was replacing the stock on the Rotel with signal's powercord, use the old one (which is thicker than average) and replace the philips sacd-1000. And boy, nothing vodoo about it, yes, I can hear the improvement in the low and mid, Bass is definitely becomes much tighter, in fact, I've been amazed to hear how low the 15 can go...I have placed an order for magicpower to replace the power cord on the REL, biwire cable for the front and center (also from Signalcable).
Going back to surroundback, I see now that technically, having LSi7 would be suffice. I was reading the manual last night, and seems like its capability in zone2 configuration is great. That's brought a third question, if I get the 1050/1070 and LSi9, I might have the opportunity to use the combo as a second system in the bedroom, should 6.1/7.1 proved to be an overkill (due to lack of worthy source...) what do you think?

Dude you own a fine receiver and I don't think you should upgrade anytime soon from it.This is what I would suggest you do is buy the rb1050 and a pair of lsi7's and play my man.I'll help you with anything you need.

Thanks for your vote of confidence and suggestion. You know how I felt about gears, that's why folks at local Tweeter loves to see me walking in, they see lunch:D seriously though, they've been very helpful and bend over to earn my business...got to be strong and no more auditioning b&k no matter how impressed I am with them :D

[mantis]

polkatese,
I was reading the manual last night, and seems like its capability in zone2 configuration is great. That's brought a third question, if I get the 1050/1070 and LSi9, I might have the opportunity to use the combo as a second system in the bedroom, should 6.1/7.1 proved to be an overkill (due to lack of worthy source...) what do you think?
Yes the Rotel has a fantastic 2nd zone.Using the rb1070 is overkill for the lsi9's in your bedroom I think.I would use another rb1050.It has plenty of punch and power for the 9's.
As far as not worth doing 6.1/7.1???It's worth it.More and more titles are on the market in 6.1........but the expense is up to you.You have the power.....why not use it?

I see you picked up some powercords........very cool.We didn't get any in from Monstercable yeat:mad: ,This is one road I wanna play on.If Monster doesn't release there cords,I'm gonna try other brands.I have access to Kimber/MiT/Tributaries,we have reps that also carry these lines of wire.I'm gonna have to call in some favors and see who can lend me some cords to get my demo on.

I can hear the improvement in the low and mid, Bass is definitely becomes much tighter, in fact, I've been amazed to hear how low the 15 can go...I have placed an order for magicpower to replace the power cord on the REL, biwire cable for the front and center (also from Signalcable).
The Lsi15's are a great speaker.I love mine.Since I switched to B&K(don't get juiced your gear is fine Bro;) )I have noticed some more detail,lower bass and a more open soundstage.The friggin speakers play sidewall to sidewall.Its so cool.I was listening to some Steeley Dan tonight"2 against nature" Cd and I was simply blown away.Damn I love my shit........:D
Thanks for your vote of confidence and suggestion. You know how I felt about gears, that's why folks at local Tweeter loves to see me walking in, they see lunch seriously though, they've been very helpful and bend over to earn my business...got to be strong and no more auditioning b&k no matter how impressed I am with them
B&K is really good stuff.I am extremely happy with mine.Rotel I feel for less then half the cost is just great my man.As I said before man,explore what you own and use it to it's fullest.If it doesn't put a smile on your face each and everytime you use it????I'll personally call the Tweeter in your area and have them but aside a B&K of your choice.........But untill that day..............

[polkatese]

Dan,
I see you picked up some powercords........very cool.We didn't get any in from Monstercable yeat ,This is one road I wanna play on.If Monster doesn't release there cords,I'm gonna try other brands.

I received my order from SignalCable this afternoon and just finished rewiring the front speakers and center. The biwire looks great, with Analysis Plus spades that fit in perfectly on the LSi. I replaced the REL stock Power Cord with another set from Signal. I know there has been a lot of skepticism on the merit of speaker cables in this forum, one that I learned from just replacing the biwire speaker cables I just received, for what its worth. I mentioned in my previous post that I noticed those improvements on the LSi15, guess what, I replaced the biwire tonight and immediately noticed a significant change on the sonic/tonal characteristics of the speakers. No, it's not for the better.....it's actually sounds less than it was. The tight bass has dissapeared, it's hollow and a bit boomy. The mid is more detailed, and the high is about the same. I learned two things by doing this:
1. Speaker cables DO make a difference (both ways, for better or worse, and cable is not just cable)
2. Breaking in of speaker cables and/or interconnects do matters (from my previous experiment, listening to a cd, the same one, at least once a week, for the past 2 months, hence the comments I made last night)
So, with the new cables, I will repeat the same process again, and I am confident it will get better again, just like before, over time. God, this hobby is fun!

Dan, btw, I want to personally make a bet with you, try SignalCable's MagicPower on your B&K, and if you don't notice any improvement on your system, I will buy it off you, that's how much I believe in that power cord...

Finally, a quick question, those IR repeater (Niles, etc.) for 2nd zone, does it work if the second system is upstairs in the bedroom? thanks much...

[mantis]

You know......thats what I'm talking about.Every single member in this forum should read that last post made by polkatese.He talked about things,people said there opnions........alot without even trying it....he went out to find what he was looking for.....test drove it and had real results.........I effin love it.

Look I don't wanna sound like I'm putting anyone down here,all I have to say is at least give it a test drive.......try this stuff out.Wire,placement,mating,room treatment,you name it.All the tech spec's in the world doesn't make it sound good.

I got a new phase I think I'm gonna use........"LISTEN AND YOU'LL SEE".

POLKATESE,
sooy to jump off topic a bit, but your post was inspiring.....I love it dude ,keep up the good work.You convinced me to go check out the power cables you are using.......signal cables HUH......well like I said no Monster as of yeat to test out.I just might go for it and try it.I wanna travel down this unexplored road.
SHOOT DUDE,
I skiped over your niles question.Yes Niles Ir repeater systems are great for any room in the house,as long as you keep the sensor away from direct sunlight,it will work perfectly.If you need help designing a system,I'll be more then glad to help.Niles makes a really user friendly kit I like alot for 2nd zone........it's called the remote anywhere kit.Comes with everything you would need to get the job done.Tools not included or Labor.You supply that Bro.....so let me know.

[polkatese]

Dan,
thanks for the comments and compliments. I was just merely stating my findings, and experimentation (is this a real word?) process. SignalCable MagicPower cord is very reasonably priced ($59) and at that price, I don't have to convince myself that it has to make my system sounds better (part of my psychological experiment, as to be able to say, if it sounds better, great! if not, no big deal or heartburn, still a great investment in great "macho" looking power cord.) And btw, Frank is one of the nicest and honest guy that I ever dealt with. He shipped promptly, respond to email promptly, and just plain great guy...(no, I don't own SignalCable stock nor getting paid to say this, it is strictly based on my dealings with him, and I do tend to go overboard when I cross path with superlative business people, in describing my experience)

As you can imagine, I am getting more and more appreciation of this hobby. The reason that I am thinking of using 2nd zone is because I am so satisfied with the main system, and becoming unhappy with my old RM-3000 system in the bedroom. This is what I used upstairs, Denon AVC-3030, RM-3000, Sony XA3ES, Rotel EQ, DBX Expander, and a Yamaha Tuner. Compared to the main system (RSX-1065, LSi15, SACD-1000), this system sounds artificial. I think I need to start dismantling the equalizer, and dbx expander, to have a more natural result. But I think, part of the bigger issues, is the inability of RM-3000 to sound natural. I know it is not the Sony cd nor the Denon amp. And I do want to have the flexibility of being able to experience a great sounding system in my bedroom (hence, the niles question, thanks for the info, Dan). Hell, I might as well, just pull the trigger on the LSi9 to put me out of this misery....
Sorry for the ramblings, :p

[mantis]

polkatese,
I love to hear it.You digging the signal powercables, not because who made them but because they sound good......beautiful.
getting 2nd zone into the medroom from the main system would be fantastic.Buy the lsi9 and the rb1050 and your on your way.Now your going to need to run some speaker wires up there.I have no idea the layout of your house,but here's what I would do.I would get some good quality 14 x 4 maybe some Monstercable Ci Pro.Run it to a wall plate in the bedroom and terminate with 5 way binding posts plate like Niles.The use 14 x 2 equal lengths to each speaker.This is an easy way to get the runs there.Another way would be to run 14 x 4 2 runs.Run them to there own speaker plate 5 way binding post like Niles and then bi wire each speaker from the plate.This is the best way to do it.1 run for eay pulling,2 runs for better fedelity.
The Niles Irp system,one run of mic wire to a good location at switch height for the Ir sensor.You can run it the same path as the speaker wires,then re route to the wall,switch height position.Just remember to keep out of direct sunlight to minimize interference.
If you have an Attic or a basement above or below, this makes for very easy runs.Avoid outdoor runs whenever possible.Conduit is best suited if you need to go outdoors.Silicon all joints.
Fun project........good luck.

[polkatese]

Dan,
thanks for the loaded information. I will ping you again, once I decided on what I want to do...why do you think the 1070 would be an overkill for the 9? just curious, since I thought the more power the merrier for LSi, especially the 9?...thanks again

[mantis]

polkatese,
I feel with what your going to be doing with them in the bedroom,the rb1050 has more then enough power and it will save you about 300.00.I don't think you need the extra power as you will never use it.
If you where building a 2nd zone 2 channel listening on the more serious level with a large room like your office or such, yeah then maybe I would go with the rb1070 for more power.Remember the amps are rated at 8 ohms so the same little 70 watt amp turns into a 130 watt monster at 4 ohm.
If I where you,I'd go down to the store where they sell both amps and give em a test run.See what amp works better for you in that room.Or buy them both and use them for a weekend,then return the unnessary amp.

[Tour2ma]

Originally posted by mantis
I feel with what your going to be doing with them in the bedroom...
Way too many SMAR's* to choose from for an opening like this... don't do this to me Dan...


*SMart Ass Remarks

[polkatese]

Dan,
my bedroom is actually almost the same size as my family room (26X18) approximately, and I rather be on the safe side. But, I see your point and your suggesstions make a lot of sense. btw, this morning I was listening to one of my cd collections, and out of the blue, the mrs. made a comment that the system sounds better, more details and the low is punchy and tight. Coming from somebody that doesn't really care about system, other than how it looks, means a lot to me. She happened to sit closer to the REL, that just got a new powercord, and she doesn't even know what kind of changes I made a couple of days ago....hmmmm..

Tour2ma,
that is a great acronym, can I use it for my weekly sales meeting? I'll use it on powerpoint presentation....

[mantis]

polkatese,
good deal bro.I wrote signalcable an E mail and I'm going forward with the powercord replacements for my dvd,and B&K.I'm looking forward to testing this.

tour2ma,
I don't post like a smartass.I speaker RAW.I speak what I feel and think of given topics.I will respond to your posts the same way.I say If you can use my advice,thats really cool, but if you disagree,thats cool 2.I'm not always right,just think alot.
;)

[polkatese]

Dan,
great! tested it out, I am very interested to hear your comments once you have those powercords. I haven't try it on the dvd, but I will one of these days. In fact, at this rate, my plan is to replace all of the removable stock cord with these, once I figure out a way to manouver behind the gears. The cord is not as flexible as I want, stiffer than stock (understandably, it's much thicker than stock) you'll like the quality...

[Tour2ma]

Originally posted by polkatese
Tour2ma,
that is a great acronym, can I use it for my weekly sales meeting? I'll use it on powerpoint presentation.... polkatese, since I neglected to trademark it, it’s out in the public domain now… have fun with it. :)
Originally posted by mantis
tour2ma,
I don't post like a smartass.I speaker RAW.I speak what I feel and think of given topics.I will respond to your posts the same way.I say If you can use my advice,thats really cool, but if you disagree,thats cool 2.I'm not always right,just think alot.
;) Mantis,
Just to be sure we're clear, and cool, the SMaR's remark was aimed at me, not you. Took your communication just for what it was, but the playful little demon in me... well I contained him, barely.
You shoot from the hip, put your views out there and take more than your share of lumps for doing so, especially on the wonders of wire. I respect that, even when I don't agree.
And your ears were wise enough to choose B&K, so we'll always have that as common ground (my ref 50-Sunfire combo is awesome, and I'm learning the 50 bit by bit... no pun intended ;) ).
Did catch your advise on the mandatory read of polkatese’s earlier post.

polkatese,
It is refreshing to have the difference due to a wire related change not be positive. Often seems to we skeptics that it always produces an improvement, because it is supposed to. I’ll tune in for your “break-in” update.

Now as for power cords… let me just say I’ve got interconnects that will be upgraded long before anything other than installing dedicated house circuits is considered. Not intending to flame here, just honestly expressing my skepticism, and unwillingness, at least at this point in time, to pay the price for the opportunity to hear the difference.

As a peace offering, take a look at this. I find it intriguing and you may not have seen it…
http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7975

[polkatese]

Tour2ma,
My interconnects was upgraded last month, so inquiring mind went to the next improvement area, power cord!:D To be honest, the real reason was the need to replace the stock Rotel cord, since it was flimsy and easily came loose, and I did learned a lot from my previous thread responses, back in December (Power Cord: Snake Oil or Placebo effect?) So, I tried and very happy with the result...

How do you like your ref50? a beautiful piece of engineering marvel....does it play nice with the grand theater?

[Tour2ma]

They "play" together very nicely.
Still 2.0 here, but routing LFE, center ch and 2 surround ch's all to my SRS mains set to large. Having fun now... On FOTR with conversation scenes’ level set to ~69db I got a 106+ (pegged out) gut rush when the stone stairs collapsed on their way to the bridge of Kasadem (sp?)… really cool :D

And music-wise, it’s a very nice pairing as well. An improvement over my AVP2000 the 50 replaced, but I think this is in part this is due to the fact that the 2000 has been getting a little tried of late. Will probably pack it off to B&K for a look-see by month’s end.
And I’m not even bi-wired at the moment ;)

Did you use signalcable for your interconnects as well? I’ve been looking at them for a while since a couple members (want to say Frank and Ron or Russ) rec’d them in an earlier thread, maybe even one of yours.

[mantis]

Tour2ma,
sorry dude I thought your comments where directed at me.My bad.Yeah I get alot of flack from the boys in here, but my comments are from my experience,not from what I have read or was told.Being an Installer has many advantages,I get to play with gear everyday.Get factory trained all the time.Etc.
B&K I gauged everything I looked at before I picked it up.When it came out,I had the pleasure of going to B&K threw the company for factory training.I got to see a avr307 built from ground up.B&K is an awesome company.They built quality products and ALL are hand made.I couldn't believe that,but I saw it LIVE.They even screw the binding posts in by hand.When I was there, I was so juiced up,I wanted to join in on the fun and build my own B&K avr307.How cool would that have been????Anyways good luck with the ref50,it's in my opnion the very best hometheater preamp under 3 grand.Balanced outputs really make a difference.I love they decided to add them.

[mantis]

I forgot about the wire comment...........
Wire makes a difference.Good or bad.I have a theory called "Mantis theory"(bad joke from the past in here).It's based on matching everything to work in harmony,and that includes wire.

[polkatese]

Nice!, Tour2ma...seems you are having tons of fun with your new ref50.

Originally posted by Tour2ma

Did you use signalcable for your interconnects as well? I’ve been looking at them for a while since a couple members (want to say Frank and Ron or Russ) rec’d them in an earlier thread, maybe even one of yours.

I bought about six sets of analog two i/c from signalcable, replaced those that goes thru the switch for sacd and dvd-a players, to the rotel. I mix and match with monster 550i and are very happy with the results. I use the 550i for sub and center, and the rest on analog two. Analog two is a very detailed and open i/c. Love it.

[Tour2ma]

Mantis,
Apology appreciated, but not needed. I did “interrupt” a serious running discussion between you and polkatese, so I can see how that in itself wouldn’t be appreciated.
Very cool that you visited B&K. Hope it was not in winter tho... Buffalo in winter? not cool... freezing... IMO B&K makes Hi-level (not esoteric, just high) products at a very reasonable price for what you get and I love how they stand behind their stuff.
On top of the AVP "25" offer for AVP 2000 owners only, they offered me a free look-see at mine as I never sent it in to correct a channel balancing glitch that came with the early 2000's (balance shifts when change volume).
BTW even my old 2000 has balanced outputs for the zone 1 mains.
No need to quote me the Mantis theory of wire... well acquainted with it, but if you must, no problem... Conversely I am sure I do not have to respectfully reiterate my skepticism to you.
Anyway, glad “we cool”…:cool:

Polkatese,
Thanks for the reply. Think I’ll look into signal for the 5 balanced interconnects I need, plus a pair or three for other critical applications (TT to phono-pre, phone-pre to AVP, etc.). Maybe I’ll mix up the pairs some across signal’s offerings and do a hearing test. ;)

Either of y’all check out the Bybee “pods” I gave the link to?

[mantis]

Tour2ma,
We cool.

[polkatese]

Tour2ma,
Quick question, that place in Atlanta that you get your ref50, are they authorized B&K shop? Did you checked out ref30? I am curious, since there are several ref30 that are on sale on audiogon. Seems like people are upgrading to ref50 in droves, and good pricing on ref30...

Dan,
did you get your magicpower yet? I also notice that there are several 307 on audiogon..

It is interesting to note, that several of these b&k owners selling their gears to upgrade, be it ref50 or avc507...

[Tour2ma]

polkatese,
Yes, they are factory authorized.

I did not check out the ref 30, but even though I know the latest series are what caught mantis' ear, I could not imagine upgrading from 30 to the 50. It'll be years before the 30 is outmoded.

As far as used... just looked at audiogon and had two at $1400 and $1500... I'd go the extra 700 to $800 for the new 50 through Cinema Source, but if the savings got over $1000????

[polkatese]

Tour2ma,
Do you agree with this statement:
AVC307 Pre = Ref30 ? Is it to say that 507 Pre = Ref50 ? The part that interest me is in the pre amp section. Power side, I am sure is sufficient to drive the LSi. IF 507 provide all the advantage of pre/pro, and I am sure that only *a few* discriminating ears can actually hear the difference between this and ref50/ref 200.7 What do you think?

[Tour2ma]

Can't say... I never even considered the AVR's.

Mantis? lil' help please...

[mantis]

polkatese,
No Ididn't order my cable yeat.I might go Kimber.I have read and hear alot of great things from there power cords.Along with all of there stuff, the Hero interconnects got my attention.I wanna try them out.
The ref30 ref 50 avr307 and avr507 question I can answer.
Yes the avr307 has a ref30 built in it.It's exactly the same.The avr307 is an intergraded ref30,but with st quality amps.Not reference amps.
The ref50 does have one thing the avr507 doesn't and thats balanced outs,other then that it's the same.I haven't gotten the offical word from B&K about how exact it is,which I'm sure it is.But the balanced outs are not on the avr507.
You ask alot about B&K.The avr307 can be had for alittle under 2 grand online.If your planning this,just before they are gone.It's one hell of a good peice and mates extremely well with Lsi.You know how I feel about your system,I don't think it's a nessary upgrade for you right now.The Rotel is awesome........I love it.
But I'm not going to tell you what to do with your system,I know all about upgrading like a mad man....your funny man.
Alot of guys upgrade to the new model because they want it now.But whats missed is that the B&K ref30 and avr307 can be upgraded to avr507/ref50 status minus the balanced inputs so.....This is the biggest reason I bought the avr307 instead of the avr507.I'm gonna upgrade as soon as B&K releases it.B&K is hardware and software upgradable.Beautiful man.

[Tour2ma]

Mantis,
Good snag.. knew you'd be there...

As for the 307/507, balanced outputs just aren't an issue for an integrated AVR, right?

As for the balanced inputs, I do plan to buy balanced input interconnects for my 50's DVD and CD, but have to say I'm running plain old, came-with-the-source-equipment-cheap-ass RCA's right now and all is very quiet... and I am getting some "Amazing" detail through a new-2-me pair of Carver speakers I just picked up... :D

[polkatese]

Yes, Dan, I am a sick man, it's like an addiction...This is what got me thinking: I need one integrated amp upstairs, and another amp downstairs to extend the HT to 7.1 on the Rotel. I am start thinking that I will have to come up with a good $700 - $1000 to get those two amps. Instead of doing that, why not consider the following: First option: get ref50/avs 125.7 combo (damned expensive), get the 307 (interesting you brought up the upgradability to 507 minus the balanced input, btw how much difference is that compared to the regular rca unbalanced?) for about $1500 used, or 507 for about $3500. Going this route will allow me to migrate my Rotel upstairs, then I will have the options to enjoy 5.1 upstairs. Right now I am trying to make sure that I don't kick myself for not going with separates, that is the $64k questions. All else being equal, I am leaning toward flagship receivers for the simplicity it presents. Sorry for the ranting, but, I think this is one hobby that I enjoy a lot, and at the same time spending way too much time tweaking the options....

[polkatese]

Dan,
one more thing, 307 to 507 upgrade is that also involved swaping hardware/card/circuit? thanks

[Tour2ma]

polkatese,
I am a "separatist"... I just love the upgrade flexibility and the ability to mix and match manufacturers.

Not that B&K amps are bad, they're great. But without the ref 50 choice, how could I have used the Sunfire Sig Cin Grand (series I) I stole on ebay? For $300 over the price of a new 507 you list, I have the ebay Sunfire and the Cinema Source 50. Tough combo to beat IMO.

True audio junkies, as I will join you in professing to be, always want the best bang for our buck, and sometimes that's not even good enough. Years ago I bought a Carver M500t, but knowing the M1.5 t was out there, I couldn't stand it and ended up returning the 500. Bagged my 1.5 a few months later, mail order for only a few bucks more.

I think you're destined to go separates... if not now, later... ;)

[polkatese]

I think you're destined to go separates... if not now, later...

:mad: Goodness grief, Tour2ma, you're not making my decision process any easier.... :)

Does it sounds like I am trying to convince MYSELF receivers are ok, as long as I can't tell the difference??

I have enough evidences in my closet, gears that I owned and should have been dealt with/trade/sold/given away long time ago. :D

[Tour2ma]

What gear??? :)

[polkatese]

Let's see, mainly old stuff...

Hafler 110/220 pair, Yamaha AVC-70 pre, Adcom GF-535, Sony CDP-30, Yamaha T-33 Tuner, Rotel RE-860 Equalizer, Sony XA3ES CD, Alpine Cassette Deck AL-61, 2 sets of RM3000, Center CS-100...run of the mill stuff that I used to keep piling them up...audio junkies? that is an understatement...

[polkatese]

Dan,
for the record, I am also considering Rotel 1098 (out in a couple of months, I think) with matching 1075 or B&K avs125.7 I thought ref 200.7 is a power overkill for my system. Having said that, this plan will not happen at least till 1098 showed up for audition.

[mantis]

Tour2ma,

As for the 307/507, balanced outputs just aren't an issue for an integrated AVR, right?
Yeah this is true from a certain point of view.

polkatese,
Yes your a sick dude man......but I love it.I'll say this about seperates,yes they are the very best way to go.If your pockets allow, by all means go ref50 and leave the av125.7 out and go ref200.7.This will yield max performance.If your going to go all out,go this way.
Now going with the avr507,your getting st amps built in.Great unit and sound quality isn't far behind the seperates.You will be suprised how good the avr507 sounds compared seperates.It's scary.
This choice your looking at here...I would go whatever your wallet will allow.You can't go wrong with the way you go.Remember seperates you will need interconnects,2 more powercords and more shelf space.If you go ref200.7,it's one heavy amp,you'll need a strong shelf......or put it in the bottom of your rack.
Balanced interconnects are the very best connection between 2 components.It has max shielding.Unbalanced interconnects are good 2 as long as they have good shielding.Interference is what you want to avoid.
B&K is hardware and software upgradable.The only thing that won't get upgraded as far as I now right now is the extra component input.The avr507 has 3 in and the avr307 has 2 in.No big deal.The upgrade will cost about 600.00.It will include all the new motorola chip sets,all new and current software.I'm excited for the upgrade.If you haven't seen my unit,here's a pic.

[mantis]

ok here's another

[polkatese]

Dan, your audio rack seems to have wire management, right? clean setup, very nice! I am in the process of breaking in the 9. One thing about LSi, it is brutally honest speakers (I am really just stating the obvious here) consequently, it reveals both: the imperfections of the source, specifically on different recording labels, and the inability of pre/amp to provide the oomph (things that made you say, oh yeah, this is it....) and the 9 IS very clean and revealing.

btw, you brought up a very good point about those two B&K ref, that combo will require decent cooling system. You saw my wall unit, I don't think it's adequate. Thanks for the input though, it's very helpful! Hey, isn't Tweeter has a loaner program?

[mantis]

polkatese,
Bello has an ok at best wire management system.I painfully sat there and wired up my system for 3 hours.I like a very clean lookin rig.The rack is nice but I'm getting it out.
Breaking in the 9's huh.cool,hey did you A B them compared to the 15's at home????I'd love to do that shoot out just for the hell of it.
You gotta talk to your local Tweeter about that.We normally don't lend out gear as far as I know.But you can also ask about our return policy before you buy.I think you have 30 days to return for a full refund,but I'm not sure about that.
Getting a new rack for your gear or going with the avr507......hmm.........sounds like the intergraded is lookin more and more appealing.At 185 watts by 7 into a 4 ohm load helps it along just fine.O you should see it in silver.....god damn it's bad looking.

[polkatese]

Dan,
I did the A/B comparison first thing when I got the 9. What I found out was, it sounds almost identical, except the low. In fact, with the REL in the mix, it is hard to differentiate the two, especially in close range. Soundstage is less, mid is slightly better on the 9, high is about the same. I would say this first impression is in line with my expectation, and I think Phuz had also mentioned this before. I put the 9 on a Sanus 28" stand, and they look alike, san the suib.
Replacing the wall unit is not an option, since it was custom made, so, you're right, 507 is looking more appealing. Silver doesn't impress me, since it doesn't match with the rest.

[Tour2ma]

polkatese,

Send me an e-mail: tour2ma@earthlink.net

You just might be able to afford separates. :)

[polkatese]

email sent...

[polkatese]

Tour2ma,

Do you follow this thread? interesting discussion on b&k:

here (http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?threadid=127123)

cheers,

[Tour2ma]

No, I don't wander in any other forums, but I did read the thread you linked to. Pretty one sided wasn't it? :)

EDIT BTW the one anti-AVR argument I do not subscribe to is the "too many functions in one box" one that somone drug out over there. Was true decades ago when Receivers were young, but I don't think it is any longer.
For me there are plenty of other reasons to go separates.

[polkatese]

One thing about receivers nowadays, as you might have implied, it has gone mainstream to many people used to sworn by separates from the old days. Ironically, I bought into the ideas 17 years ago. Started off with Sansui Integrated AU-5900 (?) in the late '70, and "moved up" to the Haflers/Adcom. Early '90s I was impressed with the Denon and decided that the hobby needs to take a back seat to the kids. I came back around to the hobby about 6 months ago, as part of redesigning the family room (and gears), and was quite surprised that the debates on receivers vs. separates still very much alive. I like simplicity as long as I can convinced myself that I don't sacrifice sound quality (did I say this before?) my rack, with dvd-a/sacd interconnects, and the rest, is a war zone in terms of wires and lack of adequate air ventilation, so receivers is what I am leaning towards. But, separates definitely give me more insurance for future planned obsolescence...

[polkatese]

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Mantis,
Just setting up my ref 50 and I am astounded, and perhaps a bit intimidated, at the range of options and flexibility it has. Is its range of commands, e.g., notch filtering, comparable to other manf's or more than?

Tour2ma,
Aren't you going to share your new toys' picture with us? How 'bout the review? c'mon, want to see your new babies in action....

[mantis]

Yeah I like pics

[Tour2ma]

OK, OK... still under construction here, but here is a sneak peek at my Eq room (theater is next door)...

Left is Mr. Sunfire and to his right is Ms. ref50, (AKA the Power and the Glory).

Above "the Glory" is the good old Technics ST-G6T tuner (semi-retired at the moment by the 50's built-in tuner). This inexpensive little sucker out spec'd tuners 10 to 20 times its price. Amazing little number there...

Below the Glory is Grandma AVP2000. She's slated to go back to B&K for a tune up (no upgrading though) shortly. Then she'll handle zones 3 and 4 after her return.

Below Grandma is the Sony 5 disc combi I'm running for now. Likely upgrade here in April, per my "Best Value..." post a while back.

The little black "bugs" you see above Glory and Grandma are old VideoLink HiddenLink flashers for the IR repeater. If you look close at the Sony, you'll see a later version “bug” stuck on the Sony's windshield.

Behind the white doors are the two TT's - a Thorens TD-320 (w/ Shure V-15 Type V) and Dual 1229 (w/ the Type III hand-me-down). They share an AudioAlchemy "Vac-in-the-Box" phono pre-amp.

Review wise - awesome, just awesome... The 50 is so quiet and well mannered and versatile, and the Sunfire is just a velvet beast at 420 wpc x 5 of clean power.... :D

[Tour2ma]

Oh and here is a shot of what is happening in the theater at the moment. It's been taken over (temporarily) by a pair of "amazing" monolith invaders that just arrived Wednesday...

But don't be concerned. I don't need rescuing... I'm OK... I think I can handle these bad boys if I weaken them a bit with 16 hours or so a day of non-stop playing... :D

[polkatese]

Tour2ma,
These pics look great! Great gears! did you run a dedicated outlet for your sunfire?

[Tour2ma]

Thanks.
No dedicated electrical circuits... yet.
There's a good chance the EQ room is going to be moving sometime in the next three months from the room to the left of the HT, to the room behind the monitor and mains.
When the move, or the decision to leave all where it is, is made I'll make the runs. Most likely I’ll run a 30 for the amps and a 20 for the sources.
Right now all are sharing a fairly quiet, otherwise lightly used, single 20-amp circuit.

[polkatese]

Tour2ma,
email was sent...

[polkatese]

So, have you run your Brubeck's "Time Out" thru the Maggies yet? (I read somewhere that you are a Brubeck's fan also) I've got the 40th Anniversary on multi-channel (Telarc) recently, good recording, but not as great as TO...

[polkatese]

Dan,
Originally posted by mantis
Balanced interconnects are the very best connection between 2 components.It has max shielding.Unbalanced interconnects are good 2 as long as they have good shielding.Interference is what you want to avoid.


pardon my ignorance, but if I have XLR connections between pre and pro amps, and I have all unbalanced rca from sources, what is the net benefit? does XLR has to be connected in tandem throughout the signal source (i.e. s-video connections in most receivers require a continuous path from source to tv, no mix match with composite)...thanks.

[mantis]

polkatese,
pardon my ignorance, but if I have XLR connections between pre and pro amps, and I have all unbalanced rca from sources, what is the net benefit? does XLR has to be connected in tandem throughout the signal source (i.e. s-video connections in most receivers require a continuous path from source to tv, no mix match with composite)...thanks.
The benefit is still there because you ran the very best connection between the amp and the Preamp.Ideal would be a full balanced system.Audio only,I never saw a balanced video cable,the closest thing to that would be a true RBG connection which is like componemt,but has a vertical and horizonal cable(yellow and white)5 total.
There are cd players that can be hooked up balanced XLR.The ref50 supports a balanced cd in allday.
As long as you have good quality rca shielded cables(which just about all of them use some typre of shielding one way or another),you'll be fine and reak the benefits of balanced.......allday.

[polkatese]

Dan, did you get your REL yet?

[Tour2ma]

Originally posted by polkatese
So, have you run your Brubeck's "Time Out" thru the Maggies yet? (I read somewhere that you are a Brubeck's fan also) I've got the 40th Anniversary on multi-channel (Telarc) recently, good recording, but not as great as TO...
Yup I did... got near the same imaging I heard during the test listen of the 1.6's. The Alto Sax just bobbing and weaving away, and me grinning away. :D

But Brubeck through the CA's pic'd above was disappointing. The piano attacks came through very harsh, borderline distorted at times. The horn was good, and the drums and bass exceeded the Maggies, but the piano... don't know there. :confused:

Symphony through the CA's is phe-nom-min-nal. Stravinsky’s Firebird is one of my fav’s. Great dynamics and emotion. With one or two exception every instrument was exactly where it should be (only the tympani and a wood block sounded down front right, when they are normally right rear). And a little SPL check showed we hit 106 db in the finale (C, fast). The CA’s did not even break a sweat.

mantis,
Are those pix sufficient to tide you over for a bit?

[Tour2ma]

mantis,
this you moving these little gems?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3011010020&category=14973

[polkatese]

I guess I am a bit at a loss here, is that the same Mantis that you pointed out? This Mantis seem to be moving quite a bit of photography products.....Dan, you are not in camera business too, are you?

Tour, that's gotta be fun listening to Desmond...great album!

[Tour2ma]

It is.. it is... I'm defintely a "Time Out" fan. Just great... Can't say I've ever listended to any other Brubeck stuff. Love following him up with Getz-Gilberto, or shuffling them in with a few other classic jazz ditties I have. It's an underdeveloped segment of my collection, but one I enjoy.

Do yourself a favor and go to your local Maggie dealer just for giggles with Dave in tow (and other acoustical fav's as well). They could end up being expensive giggles, but that can be someday down the road. When you have to have that 2 ch rig.

I have no idea if that's "our" mantis selling the Carver, in fact I'm pretty sure it's not as the locations don't match (PA vs. Austin, TX), but just caught my eye...

[polkatese]

I meant Paul Desmond on alto sax in Take Five...seems you are very satisfied with the maggie, I might audition it...One speaker that I was really impressed with was Sonus Faber Grand Piano. It's such a beaut..

[mantis]

polkatese,
sad to say,I haven't made the move on the REL yeat.Really no need at the moment due to the fact that the theater room isn't built yeat But you never know.Hows your workin with the new powercord?Did I tell you that REL sell the balanced interconnect without the wire???Then my friend you can use the WIRE of CHOICE..........hmmmmmmm added bonus for the upgrade path....This will be the route I take when the time comes.

Tour2ma,
If I owned them YES it would be me MOVING them.But with a twist....they gotta get out.No reserve at all,first come first serve at whatever price they bring to the table.......better yeat I'll give them away for free and pay shipping costs.......hows that???LOL
Yes I'm not a fan of the older carver amps.....;)

[polkatese]

Dan,
what do you mean balanced IC w/o wire? you meant just the neutrik speakon? The power cord works great, I played around with the positioning of the LSi15, so it seems that the low is getting better, but in actuality, it could be because the sub on the 15 is working in tandem with the REL, since they are closer together now. Quick question, what is the real difference between ref 200.7 and av125.7 other than more wattages? better built quality? thanks...

[Tour2ma]

mantis,
You're too generous, I can't accept... I'll pay the shipping :lol:
You check out my photos?

polkatese,
Yup, knew you meant Paul Desmond. Don't know the "Pianos" you mentioned.

Fella I bought my CA's from used to be in the audio biz in Nashville. He owned three stores. Anyway he had some choice looking vintage AcouStats. Tube amps built into the bottom and all. Unfortunately time was flying, I had to get on the road and he had to get back to work (the road could have waited as far as I was concerned) and I did not get a listen. :(
But if I'm ever back in the Daytona Beach area...

[polkatese]

Tour,
The next time you go to your local Starbuck for your java needs, you might want to check one of their jazz series, Brubeck Quartet, "Park Avenue South" live recording, Telarc production. It's very decent...

[Tour2ma]

Will do... I'm almost out of whole bean Italian Roast... :) ...

[polkatese]

Guess what, that Brubeck is going SACD on the 25th, should have wait to get this one...in fact, it's $14.99 (SAME price as the redbook), bummer!

[Tour2ma]

:cool:
That'll be one expensive CD for me seeing as I do not yet have a SACD capable player...

[polkatese]

ok, then, the redbook version is very good too:p I am just trying to stop buying cd, if the SACD version exist, even more so if the price is the same....:D

[polkatese]

Tour,
stumble into this fine Telarc double album redbook at CC this past weekend (two days sale all redbook $9.99) and I thought I mentioned this to you. The quartet plays almost all standard tunes (Sunnyside of the street, etc.) DDD recording, figured at $5.00 per album, ain't bad. Check it out....