LSi9's and an AV receiver

[syntheticzero]

Hi,

I just wanted to share my experiences as I put together my system. Long in the dim past I used to own some DCM TimeFrame speakers --- great sound, not quite loud enough, but really excellent accuracy; however, I drove them with a low-end Denon receiver. They were later stolen ... so for quite some time after that I made do with various inexpensive subwoofer / satellite setups, but recently I decided I really wanted to upgrade.

So, I started off for the various stores. Initially I tried an RTi A3 with a midrange Pioneer Elite receiver, CSi A4 center speaker, an inexpensive PSW110 sub, and some throwaway Polk speakers for the surrounds (we don't care that much about the surround sound experience for now). I have to say ... the A3's sounded ... okay. Great on some tracks, but flat on others (especially classical music), too bright overall, I felt.

After much research I decided to return the A3's and go for something more audiophile --- LSi9's. Thought about the 7's but the price was only $200 more and I figured why not. However, these are 4 ohm speakers that are notorious for needing power, and already we're breaking my original (unrealistic) budget.

So, I decided to go on a quest for an AV receiver that could handle these speakers. I saw that NAD and other high-end brands carry receivers rated for 4 ohms, but reviews suggested that these receivers were either difficult to use or lacked certain features. So, after much research ... I found a top-end Yamaha AV receiver that was rated for 4 ohms, but only for the two fronts. So if I ever wanted to round out my system with the full LSi line that would not work, or I'd have to buy separate amps. For now I'm trying to get off cheap...

Finally discovered that Onkyo's higher end AV receivers (706 and above) are rated for 4 ohms all around. I ended up getting an 806 on sale at B&H for only $700. So, that's what I got!

So, as of right now, I have an Onkyo TX-SR806 and two LSi9's, and the aforementioned sub and throwaway surrounds. I am holding off on the center channel for now.

A few notes on my setup:

1) I set the sub crossover in the Onkyo to 40 Hz, because the LSi9's have very good bass response and my sub is cheap and I really just want it to fill in at the very low end. It sounds *great* in this configuration. In the default config of 80Hz crossover, with this cheap sub it sounds much less good.

2) The Onkyo supposedly supports bi-amping. I tried it. Not only do I think it didn't improve the sound, I think it significantly degraded the sound. So, if you happen to have this receiver, I really recommend NOT going the bi-amp route. I have been considering bi-wiring and some have recommended, though I remain rather skeptical of the supposed benefits, but I'll give it a try later.

3) The Onkyo has a 4 ohm and 6 ohm + setting. You're supposed to set it to 4 ohms when using any 4 ohm speakers. I've read elsewhere that doing this is not necessary and can degrade the sound. Subjectively I feel that the 6 ohm setting sounds slightly better, but I'm not sure it is safe for the receiver. The 4 ohm setting still sounds great.

Basically, I was pretty happy to find a consumer-grade AV receiver that was seriously rated for 4 ohms. The thing is HEAVY (like the LSi9's) so I presume that means beefy power supply, transformers, etc.

[anonymouse]

Nice writeup. Somebody here will chime in and tell you that you need separate amplification to get the best out of these speakers. I do think that the LSi9's in stock form shine with power - the more the better. Personally, I feel the crossover modification did far more for the sound than any amp - and I have tried several.

[cnh]

Great first post S-zero.

There are a number of threads/posts that talk about Onkyo's running in the 4 ohm mode. It really does reduce the power that it can feed those LSI-9s. According to Home Theater mags bench tests.

The 806 falls from 130 W/2 channels 8 ohms to 107.2 watt/5 channels continuous, and 79.6 watts 7 channels continuous at 8 ohms .1 percent distortion.

The 4 ohm rating at 5 and 7 channel continuous would be lower than this. So while that Onkyo can drive those it doesn't have quite enough power to make them 'sing'. They're rated 20-200 watts at 4 ohms. It's unlikely that the Onkyo is putting out more than 50 watts 5 channel surround at that load?

Since you've got a nice receiver, just get a quality power amp that can up that power for 4 ohms and those LSIs will sound even better...

Oh, and welcome to CP.
cnh

[comfortablycurt]

The 4 ohm setting on the Onkyo is basically a current limiter. Turning it to the 4 ohm setting puts an additional resistor in the signal path which "tricks" the AVR into thinking it's running a 6 or 8 ohm load. It also basically cuts the power level in half to prevent damage to the receiver.

This method severely limits the amps dynamics unfortunately. A lot of people have reported decreased bass output and dynamics because it effectively tricks the AVR into running at an increased impedance, so you're not really getting the most out of the speakers. Most people would recommend running it in 8 ohm mode, even with 4 ohm speakers. It's likely going to sound a lot better. Just don't get to trigger happy with the volume knob.

That switch is basically a safety feature that they're required by law to put on the AVR in order to meet UL requirements. That AVR isn't really designed to run 4 ohm speakers...it's capable of it, but barely.

I see external amplification in your future.

Welcome to Club Polk.:)

[syntheticzero]

When and if I go with 4 ohms all around, I'll definitely get external amps. I wanted to get a receiver that could drive at least two fronts and maybe also a center at 4 ohms ... this is the only one that says explicitly that it can. The surrounds are of less importance to me at the moment. So far the Onkyo seems to be doing a pretty decent job driving these speakers. I've decided to leave it at the 6 ohm setting for the time being, based on your advice (as well as what I've read elsewhere).

At the moment since I only have the two fronts as 4 ohm speakers, I'm hoping the Onkyo will be adequate. So far it sounds pretty damn good (now that I have the crossover adjusted properly and I gave up bi-amping). I do have the speakers bi-wired now but honestly I don't hear a significant difference.

I am using some crappy cheap Monster cable. I have been reading that good speaker cables cost a lot --- but then other sites claim any old low-gauge wire is just as good as expensive speaker cable. Don't know what to make of that.

It's funny, when I started looking into buying a new system I didn't think I'd have to buy the top line Polks... I figured I'd be happy enough with RTis or something in that class, but I guess I have just enough audiophile in me that the RTis weren't adequate. I mean, they were fine, but I figured if I'm spending $X already I might as well get something that REALLY sounds good.

[syntheticzero]

(When I say "the only one" I mean the only mass-market brand that has all the various bells and whistles, HDMI audio support, blah blah which is quite convenient even if not strictly necessary... --- AND can at least "barely" handle 4 ohm speakers. I've read that some other high-end AV receivers can handle it but don't say they can --- I feel a tad safer with a receiver that actually claims it can.)

[comfortablycurt]

Since you're only driving one pair of 4 ohm speakers, you're probably just fine with the Onkyo driving them for the time being. Like I said earlier, just don't get crazy with the volume knob and check from time to time to make sure the AVR isn't getting extremely hot(the Onk's do tend to run fairly hot though regardless).

Your experience with the bi-wiring coincides with most peoples experience bi-wiring with an AVR. No improvement at all.

As far as the speaker cables go, you could spend a lot of money on them. You could spend more than the worth of your entire rig if you wanted, but that doesn't mean you have to. There are some other low cost options out there that will work much better than the Monster you're using now.

Check out these sites. They've all got quality products at great prices.

http://www.signalcable.com/

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/index.htm

http://www.monoprice.com/ This site appears to be down at the moment...but it should be back up pretty soon.


I know what you mean about spending more than you anticipated. Stick around here for a while and you'll get talked into spending even more.;) The people here have a way of helping you spend your money...lol

[tonyb]

I wouldn't say we "talk" people into spending more,but rather "steer" them into a world of better sound.;)

Like all things in life,ya gets what ya pay for.

[syntheticzero]

If anything, biwiring from the Onkyos (with crappy Monster cables) hurts the sound slightly, though the diffference is less noticeable than bi-amping with the Onkyo's bi-amping mode, which just sounds terrible to my ears. When I first hooked them up I put them in bi-amp mode, and I just went ... is that all there is? (yes, I switched the amp to bi-amp mode) But when I switched it to single cables it sounded a lot better. Who knows why. I now have them back to single cables with the jumper, and this is definitely the best configuration of the three with this Onkyo (admittedly, when I was biwiring I didn't cut the cables exactly the same length, etc.)

Now just have to run this for a while and hope the Onkyo doesn't burn up when I don't have it in 4 amp mode. So far so good, after a number of hours running it to break in the speakers.

Now, did someone say something about a crossover mod? :)

[cnh]

The 'experts' have a mod for this speaker. What for them to show up? Or just use the search engine above if you can do that thing. I'm not that 'handy' with the internal workings of electronics. I also wonder why Polk engineers don't incorporate that 'mod' if it makes such a difference?

cnh

[syntheticzero]

My latest "upsetting" discovery --- these speakers (with the Onkyo) sound so good that I dug out my old CDs and played them via my PS3 with an optical input directly into the Onkyo ... they totally and utterly blew away my (apparently quite sad) mp3 collection. Now I'm going to have to re-encode all my music as 256kbit or maybe even lossless ... and/or buy high bitrate versions of everything. And get a Roku Soundbridge so I can directly play them via a digital interface rather than my now absurd AirTunes box, which sounds like crap and distorts on occasion (never noticed it before but with these speakers it's REALLY audible).

Once you go audiophile, does the spending ever stop??

[fast1]

Since you're only driving one pair of 4 ohm speakers, you're probably just fine with the Onkyo driving them for the time being. Like I said earlier, just don't get crazy with the volume knob and check from time to time to make sure the AVR isn't getting extremely hot(the Onk's do tend to run fairly hot though regardless).

Your experience with the bi-wiring coincides with most peoples experience bi-wiring with an AVR. No improvement at all.

As far as the speaker cables go, you could spend a lot of money on them. You could spend more than the worth of your entire rig if you wanted, but that doesn't mean you have to. There are some other low cost options out there that will work much better than the Monster you're using now.

Check out these sites. They've all got quality products at great prices.

http://www.signalcable.com/

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/index.htm

http://www.monoprice.com/ This site appears to be down at the moment...but it should be back up pretty soon.


I know what you mean about spending more than you anticipated. Stick around here for a while and you'll get talked into spending even more.;) The people here have a way of helping you spend your money...lol

amazon is not a good site to purchase from?http://photosnag.com/img/3322/n09x0302vnsn/clear.gif

[syntheticzero]

I should add that now that I've been running this amp with these speakers in 6 ohm (not 4 ohm) mode, for days, and so far no problems whatsoever. The amp does not get excessively hot (despite what I've heard about the Onkyos running hot, this one just gets mildly warm, at least playing the LSi9's at the volumes I'm playing, i.e., I tend not to go much over -20 dB most of the time). It's never gone into protection. It sounds dazzling, at least to me, by far the best sounding hi-fi I have ever owned. Maybe it would sound even better with an external amp, but so far I can't say I'm anything but amazed by the sound coming from my system.

[Pedler]

My latest "upsetting" discovery --- these speakers (with the Onkyo) sound so good that I dug out my old CDs and played them via my PS3 with an optical input directly into the Onkyo ... they totally and utterly blew away my (apparently quite sad) mp3 collection. Now I'm going to have to re-encode all my music as 256kbit or maybe even lossless ... and/or buy high bitrate versions of everything. And get a Roku Soundbridge so I can directly play them via a digital interface rather than my now absurd AirTunes box, which sounds like crap and distorts on occasion (never noticed it before but with these speakers it's REALLY audible).

Once you go audiophile, does the spending ever stop??

Don't encode at 256kbit The minimum should be 320kb I do mine @Aiff
or Flac. a 500gig hard drive can handle at least most peoples music collection at the largest riped quality which is almost cd quality anyway.

Google it for more info.

[BlueFox]

Don't encode at 256kbit The minimum should be 320kb I do mine @Aiff
or Flac. a 500gig hard drive can handle at least most peoples music collection at the largest riped quality which is almost cd quality anyway.

Use either uncompressed, or lossless encoding. At a minimum it is eqaul to CD, and some feel that music from a server actually sounds better than from a CD. Robert Harley in the absolute sound has mentioned this in his reviews of music servers.

[cfrizz]

Amazon is a fine place to purchase from. But you won't find any of the brands listed above at Amazon.

And we strongly encourage people NOT to support Monsters ability to continuely sue small business owners for having the name Monster in their business that isn't even remotely related to the cable industry!


amazon is not a good site to purchase from?http://photosnag.com/img/3322/n09x0302vnsn/clear.gif