Overview Of Premium Cable History

[DarqueKnight]

Introduction

Premium audio cable manufacturers and those that use their products are frequently the object of much hatred, ill will, hostility and insults based on the unsubstantiated notion that all such products are a scam.

For some individuals, premium cables are a problem. Some of these individuals bounce from one Internet forum to another on a crusade to save supposedly gullible individuals from being parted from their hard earned by the evil premium cable purveyors. As an engineer, I have been trained to seek the root causes of a problem in order to solve it. I asked myself the question: "Are premium cables really a problem?" If so, where did this "problem" originate?

This report looks at the origins of the premium speaker cable, interconnect and power cable markets. Since power cables are currently the most maligned segment of the premium cable market, we will begin our analysis there.

Premium Power Cables

Aftermarket power cables are thought by some to be the epitome of audio snake oil because, unlike speaker and interconnect cables, they are not in the signal chain and thus couldn't possibly have any effect on signal quality. Even people who have heard the benefits of better speaker and interconnect cables are reluctant to try a better power cord because they just don't see how it could have any possible benefit other than placebo. I have expounded at length on the fallacious nature of such sophistries in previous reports and I will not rehash them here.

Prior to the year 2000, premium power cables were not generally commercially available. The first aftermarket power cables were made by DIY (do it yourself) audio enthusiasts in order to replace the chintzy 18 gauge "zip" power cords that were permanently attached to their audio equipment. Zip cord is so named because the dual conductors are easily "zipped" apart. It was theorized, and subsequently confirmed, by some in the DIY community that the "zip" power cords that were designed for toasters, fans, lamps and other household appliances might be inadequate for audio components. People began to report good results with heavier gauge, better shielded home-made power cords. Some DIY'ers sold their power cable configurations in extremely limited quantities, typically to other audiophiles in their local communities. A large part of this was driven by the positive audible results with heavier gauge, better shielded speaker and interconnect cables that were first brought to market by the Monster Cable corporation beginning in 1979. Once the Internet began to facilitate the easier transfer of audio information among the DIY'ers in the mid 1990's, quite a bit of information on various configurations of DIY power cables became widely available.

As far as I have been able to determine, the first commercially available premium power cable was brought to market by PS Audio in 2000. Their "Lab Power Cable" was a 6 gauge triple shielded power cord terminated with IEC C13 and C14 connectors. It retailed for $400 for a three foot length. The Lab Power Cable was initially designed for one of PS Audio's "Power Plant" AC regenerators. DIY Audiophiles began to adapt this cable to other audio gear, particularly power amplifiers, with excellent results. The rest...is history. The phenomenal commercial success of the Lab cables launched an entire new product line at PS Audio and, as is usual, a variety of imitators and innovators in the premium power cable market.

The premium power cable market actually came about as a response to customer demand from the DIY community rather than slick marketing schemes by a nefarious manufacturer. The question now begs: Why would a DIY'er fork over $400 for a power cable rather than make their own? Simple: The PS Audio Lab cord outperformed anything they could economically make themselves. It is doubtful that PS Audio would have had the balls to be the first company to go to market with an aftermarket power cord, especially a $400 power cord, in 2000 if they weren't reasonably certain that they could achieve a reasonable return on their investment. After the Lab power cable, PS Audio went on to contribute a number of innovative audio grade power products (power cords, AC receptacles, power strips, power conditioners and AC regenerators).

Figures 1-3 show the original Lab Power Cable from 2000. Notice how much it looks like a DIY project. Compare the appearance of the Lab cable to the slick aesthetics and proprietary connectors and jacketing of the more recent Statement SC and Premier SC power cables shown in figure 4.

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s23/darqueknight88/pslab/Lab002.jpg
Figure 1. PS Audio Lab cable brochure photo.

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s23/darqueknight88/pslab/Lab003.jpg
Figure 2. PS Audio Lab cable connectors.

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s23/darqueknight88/pslab/Lab001.jpg
Figure 3. PS Audio Lab cable and packaging.

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s23/darqueknight88/017Stmt-PremConn-s.jpg
Figure 4. PS Audio Statement SC on left and Premier SC power cords.

Those who have been audio enthusiasts, or audiophiles, for fifteen years or more can remember when IEC connectors on audio equipment was practically non-existent. It is only within the last ten years that IEC sockets have become commonplace on audio equipment. The reason is obvious. Prior to ten years ago, there was no reason for audio gear to have detachable power cords because there were no commercially available audio grade aftermarket cords. Indeed, the International Electrotechnical Commission's (IEC's) 60320 specification for 13 types of IEC connectors was written to facilitate the interchange of power cords for appliances that were intended for international markets rather than the easy replacement of audio gear power cords.

Once audio gear manufacturers became aware that the consumers of upper mid grade and high end gear were interested in higher performance power cords, IEC sockets became commonplace on better audio components.

I used to be a collector of Sony ES components from the mid-1980-s to mid 1990's. I gleefully replaced the captive power cords on my XA7ES CD player, TA-F707ES and TA-F808ES integrated amps, TA-E90ES and TA-E9000ES preamplifiers, ST-S730ES tuner and TA-N90ES power amplifier. I heard better overall clarity and improved bass performance with every replacement. Furthermore, noise spectrum measurements of the stock and aftermarket cords confirmed that the aftermarket cords filtered more noise from the environment and power line.

Premium Speaker And Interconnect Cables

[***Disclaimer: I know that many on this forum viscerally despise Noel Lee and the Monster Cable corporation for their real, imagined and alleged business practices. I ask that you take any Monster bashing comments to another thread. This is meant to be a discussion on premium cable history, not Monster's business practices. Thank you for your understanding.***]

The first premium cable product was brought to market in 1979 by Noel Lee's Monster Cable corporation. The Original Monster Cable was a 12 gauge wire with associated claims that its better stranding geometry and higher purity copper resulted in more faithful transmission of the audio signal. The Original Monster Cable is one of the most successful products in the audio industy and is still being sold today, 30 years after its introduction. Mr. Lee, a mechanical engineering graduate of the California Polytechnic State University and a former research engineer at Lawrence Livermore Laboratories and a former professional musician (drummer in a rock band), demonstrated his new cable at the 1979 Consumer Electronics Show with resultant rave reviews.

Members of the audio DIY community had been experimenting with heavier gauge speaker cables and DIY interconnects for some time. From awareness of those efforts, and the warm reception at the 1979 CES, Mr. Lee perceived that there was an untapped market for high performance audio cables. This encouraged him to offer his cables commercially. The rest, as they say, is history.

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s23/darqueknight88/pslab/OMC.jpg
Figure 5. Prior to Monster Cable, there were
no cable debates. Can you imagine that?

Prior to Monster Cable, speakers were connected to amplifiers with the same 18 gauge zip cord that ran to most common household appliances. This cable was so cheap that it was usually supplied free of charge with the purchase of a set of speakers. Monster Cable, on the other hand, cost 50 cents a foot. A person needing a 15 foot pair would have to pay an additional $15 over the cost of the speakers. The 2009 equivalent of $15 in 1979 dollars is $50. Asking someone to pay the equivalent of an additional $50 for something they were used to getting for free was a ball$y move on Monster Cable's part...but lots of customers said they were able to hear a significant improvement and they eagerly forked over the ca$h.

[DarqueKnight]

Cable Economics

There are some who grudgingly admit that some premium cables provide some audible benefit, yet they believe the prices for these cables are in the realm of obscenity. The prices of premium cables are far, far less than those of diamond rings and bracelets, and, unlike the diamond ring or bracelet, the audio cable actually serves a practical purpose. Some of these cables use precious metal conductors, difficult to manufacture winding geometries, proprietary jacketing materials and proprietary noise reduction technologies. Some of these cables are the result of substantial research in preserving signal integrity. Additionally, a relatively small market size and the realities of retail distribution also increase cost.

No doubt, just like in every other lucrative market segment, there are crooks in the premium audio cable manufacturing industry who offer next to nothing in real value, yet charge premium prices. Consumers should use the same common sense and discretion while shopping for audio cables that they use while shopping for diamonds...or anything else. Why get mad, or angry or embittered because a cable manufacturer is asking $11,000 for a pair of speaker cables and someone is willing to pay that? The seller and the buyer aren't doing anything wrong. I never see anyone getting mad, angry or embittered at diamond merchants for selling small rocks for $11,000 or more. Nor have I ever seen one case of someone hysterically demanding proof that an $11,000 diamond is "worth it" and that it actually provides greater practical and aesthetic value than significantly less expensive gem stones. Some people need to calm down.

While some premium cables cost a lot, the consumer would pay much more if they made a comparable DIY item...assuming they had the materials and fabrication capability. DIYer's have been trying to duplicate the performance of Audioquest's DBS (dielectric bias cables) for years. Although some "workable" and "functional" DIY DBS designs have been produced by the DIY community, no one has yet been able to come close to the performance of the Audioquest DBS product. A typical DIYer simply does not have access to the research expertise, volume discounts, quality of materials and precision manufacturing processes required to duplicate these cables.

Even when the same parts are available to the DIYer, it is often cheaper, and certainly more convenient, to buy a commercially available product. For example, the 10 AWG 3 conductor power cable, IEC connectors, silver content solder, and heat shrink tubing used in Signal Cable's MagicPower cords are available to anyone who wants to purchase them. However, once you have bought all the parts and paid shipping, you would have spent substantially more than the $59 that Signal Cable charges for a 3 foot MagicPower cord. In addition to this, the cost of time spent assembling the cable must also be considered.

Conclusion

The DIY roots of the premium cable industry are not surprising once you consider that the entire consumer electronics industry has it origins in the DIY community.

Most premium cable companies, rather than preying on the ignorance of consumers, actually came about to satisfy a pent up demand from the DIY audio community, which can be classified as a group of generally technically competent and well informed consumers. In order to induce a consumer of this caliber, a consumer accustomed to building their own cables, to buy a cable product, a manufacturer needed to offer a level of performance and quality that was unavailable to the DIYer.

The fact that high performance power, speaker and interconnect cables have been embraced by the DIY community should serve to inform that there is some performance value in this product segment.

It is also interesting to note that ugly cable debates generally don't exist on DIY oriented Internet forums. Why is this? First, the DIYer is, by nature, someone who is interested in learning and trying new things and then objectively reporting their results. Second, many, if not most, DIYers have already proved to themselves that the offerings of legitimate high performance cable companies are, in many cases, superior to anything they could fabricate themselves. When the focus is on learning rather than arguing and disparaging, a lot of valuable information exchange can take place.

[cnh]

Darqueknight,

What a primer on the subject. And interesting 'history' on Monster...who knew?

cnh

[nooshinjohn]

Thanks for the info DK. though I am not yet persuaded to part with large sums of cash for such things, I do not have any opinion worth posting on the matter. If there are benefits to be had by going with esoteric designs, those that can hear and appreciate them by all means should do so.

[Face]

Excellent thread, thank you.

[BlueFox]

In regard to the DIY, I would guess that if anything would be easy to do it would be to build a power cable. Any comments on what the expected result (other than being electrocuted) would be from going to Home Depot, getting some 12 or 10 quage wiring, a heavy duty plug, and socket, and making a cable to the perfect length from the power conditioner to the <fill in the blank>.

[DarqueKnight]

I don't know if Home Depot or any other hardware stores currently carry IEC type connectors.

You can buy heavy gauge power cable from Home Depot. The only thing I would advise caution about is the quality of the copper used in the hardware store cables. Most of the time, this copper is the "tough pitch" type that has a lot of impurities, which translates to higher noise.

You should also use a good quality solder and good quality connectors.

I have never made a DIY power cable. I did make some DIY speaker cables out of 6 AWG tough pitch copper cable from Home Depot. The results of that trial are here (http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57850).

At the bottom of the 1st post in this thread (http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59841) is a chart comparing the sonic qualities of my DIY Home Depot cables to three commercially available cables.

If you google "DIY power cords" you will find a lot of fabrication guides and performance results.

Here is a link to a DIY power cord effort by one of our forum members: Some DIY Power Cords (http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17736)

[NJPOLKER]

DarqueKnight,
Thank you for taking the time and effort to share this information with me. I started here at C.P. to learn and I sure have learned a lot.
Thanks again

[AudioGenics]

DarqueKnight

Thank you for sharing.

You are indeed a Master.

[Mike21]

Hi DarqueNight.

Thank you for the post. Very interesting and informative.

Got any other histories in the making?

Mike

[DarqueKnight]

Not at this time.

[danz1906]

Excellent thread, very interesting,,Thanks for the info.

[mrbigbluelight]

Once again, DK, excellent work ! Nice skill to be able to pass on knowledge to us in the peanut gallery and make it pleasant.

[dorokusai]

That's 4 minutes of my life I'll never get back.

[DarqueKnight]

Please don't change the thread title.

[hearingimpared]

Awesome write up Doc.

[F1nut]

Excellent!!!

[disneyjoe7]

Nice, interesting history there.

Thanks DK

[mantis]

Excellent read Knight. I learned a lot about monster with 2 of the dealers I worked for. They came in and trained us on there history and the very 12 gauge cable which was the first of it's kind. In my young years of audio and video , monstercable is what got me into wire all together.

Dan

[treitz3]

I'll reluctantly admit Monster actually got me into the cable crap as well. I owe them that. That said, I have moved on and I'm not looking back unless I'd like to attenuate a signal a certain way.

DK, nice writeup as always. You rock.

[Flash21]

Heh, diamonds are a far bigger scam than audio cables will ever be.

[Zero]

Excellent write-up DarqueKnight.

As an aside: I'm not 100% certain, but wasn't Matthew Polk one of the first to introduce an aftermarket speaker cable (the Cobra)? Coulda swore he released it a few years prior to Monster Cable hitting the scene. I still recall Matt telling me (well, a group of polkies) how much of a beating the press gave him over that cable as well.

[DarqueKnight]

There were a handful of "better" speaker cables that popped up during the mid 1970's that, for various reasons, were neither technically nor commercially successful. The appropriately named "Cobra" speaker cables (circa 1976) were a high capacitance Japanese cable that Polk imported and sold. Cobra cable didn't seem to work well with a lot of amplifiers (oscillation issues) and also had a reputation for rapidly tarnishing. They were withdrawn from market. There are a few threads here on the forum discussing them.

Monster was the first to general market with a viable improved speaker cable product.

[lightman1]

Fiddlesticks! I guess I'll have to see what this cable thing is all about!

Great work DK. Now hopefully people can see that this is not a biased forum that only accepts what few believe is gospel.
Keep it up.

[Toolfan66]

Good Read DK.

Thanks!!!!

[schwarcw]

Nice writeup Raife!

The biggest problem with premium power cables is that nay sayers will point to the cheap Romex in the wall and challenge you to a valid explanation how the premium power cable can change the electricity that was generated miles away. This is still the biggest obstacle to the power cord industry.

I've also heard some really good DIY power cables. I like to read the "dissection" threads that show the actual wires, shielding, terminations, connectors, workmanship, etc. There is definitely some snake oil out there.

[xcapri79]

It was a nice read, however are there any published objective tests that to show the actual differences in electrical properties, frequency response, attenuation, noise immunity, etc of various cables and wires? A quantitative comparison of those products would be very educational. A scientific measurement makes for a strong argument.

[xcapri79]

Nice writeup Raife!

The biggest problem with premium power cables is that nay sayers will point to the cheap Romex in the wall and challenge you to a valid explanation how the premium power cable can change the electricity that was generated miles away. This is still the biggest obstacle to the power cord industry.
There is definitely some snake oil out there.


Exactly. Harry Potter makes a great read, but it remains a work of fiction.

[DarqueKnight]

The biggest problem with premium power cables is that nay sayers will point to the cheap Romex in the wall and challenge you to a valid explanation how the premium power cable can change the electricity that was generated miles away. This is still the biggest obstacle to the power cord industry.

Not really. Not when you think about it calmly and rationally. The old, snide, tired naysayers "argument" about cheap Romex and miles and miles of cheap, dirty utility company wire conveniently ignores the fact that much can be done to clean the power signal once it comes from the wall...just as a good water filter can do a lot to remove contaminates from tap water after it has been processed by a multi-million dollar water treatment facility and traveled through miles and miles of water system piping.;)

[DarqueKnight]

It was a nice read, however are there any published objective tests that to show the actual differences in electrical properties, frequency response, attenuation, noise immunity, etc of various cables and wires?

Yes there are.


A quantitative comparison of those products would be very educational.

I agree 1000%.


A scientific measurement makes for a strong argument.

I don't like to argue.

[F1nut]

The old, snide, tired naysayers "argument" about cheap Romex and miles and miles of cheap, dirty utility company wire conveniently ignores the fact that much can be done to clean the power signal once it comes from the wall...

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner!

[xcapri79]

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner! And it isn't the fancy power cord!

[erniejade]

Nice write up!!

[xcapri79]

Not really. Not when you think about it calmly and rationally. The old, snide, tired naysayers "argument" about cheap Romex and miles and miles of cheap, dirty utility company wire conveniently ignores the fact that much can be done to clean the power signal once it comes from the wall...just as a good water filter can do a lot to remove contaminates from tap water after it has been processed by a multi-million dollar water treatment facility and traveled through miles and miles of water system piping.;) True but that fancy power cable has precious little to do with it too!

[Zero]

DK - Thanks for the cliff note's re: the Cobra. Great stuff.

[F1nut]

And it isn't the fancy power cord!

Of course, it is. Do yourself a favor and try some. You might have some credibility after that.

[Hillbilly61]

Kudos for the very nice write up! :D

This thread raises an interesting question of whether or not greater benefit is gained by A) conditioning the power & using the equipment mfgr's power cord or B)installing a premium power cord directly plugged into the grid? It is assumed that A & B combined will have the greatest benefit.

Given the recent climate in this forum, it is felt prudent to state the following: By asking this question I am not asking for a debate to emerge in this thread concerning this question nor implying an opinion. I am rehtorically asking this question from an engineer's perspective. Unless you have relevant material (research, etc) to respond with, please refrain from responding to this question.

[DarqueKnight]

Do yourself a favor and try some.

Lost cause.;)

[DarqueKnight]

This thread raises an interesting question of whether or not greater benefit is gained by A) conditioning the power & using the equipment mfgr's power cord or B)installing a premium power cord directly plugged into the grid? It is assumed that A & B combined will have the greatest benefit.

Everything that a signal passes through has a noise characteristic. Better power cables shield against noise being induced from the environment and provide lower resistance, lower noise conductors for the power signal.

You want to preserve as much of a power conditioner's benefit as possible. A well shielded, low noise power cable does this.

[lightman1]

And it isn't the fancy power cord!
My thoughts. I work for a power company. Starting from the point of generation, i.e. hydro,steam,wind or nuke. It is a very loosely regulated voltage.
Bring that to a step down distribution sub-station that may feed a local co-op and continue on to the next point of the grid. Step that down to local transmission. And then run that to local distribution subs then break it down to circuits feeding factories, cicuits and distribution.
From that circuit on the distribution, you may have 4-6 houses on the same tx. I'm not sure about other utils, but here, thats around 7200v. And that tx is trying to bring 120/240 into your house. 120/240 is a reference. At the meter you might read 128v to ground per phase, 247v phase to phase. Typical around here.
After that meter it, it becomes a point of economics. Electrical contractor is asking, "How cheap can I wire this house?" I ask "How many of you know how your house is wired?"
Most general use circuits are wired with 14-2 romex. General use meaning a couple of rooms and some lighting are wired to the same breaker only to appease the inspector who only passes a house by "bare code minimum". Economics strikes again.
I believe in power conditioners at this point. Simply because they are a PROOF POSITIVE voltage regulator.

MY point is, y'all can talk big time power cords to a piece of gear and tout its benefits of SQ. But why would your connect a 4" water hose to to a 1/2 inch spiggot and expect it to produce more pressure.

[DarqueKnight]

The goal of a well designed power cable is not to produce more pressure (voltage). The goal is to preserve power signal integrity by the reduction of noise. Its purpose is analogous to a water filter, rather than a water pump.

[lightman1]

Fair enough.;) But can two feet of 6Ga. copper conductor be a substantial filter?
make 'em think DK..

[DarqueKnight]

But can two feet of 6Ga. copper conductor be a substantial filter?

No. There is far more to a power cable than the conductors. Things which contribute to noise filtration are:

1. The purity of the conductor material.

2. The type, quality, and quantity of conductor cladding.

3. The type, quality, and quantity of the cable jacketing material. For example, ferrite impregnated jackets have significant high frequency noise reduction properties.

4. The winding geometry of the conductors. I'm sure you are familiar with the noise cancellation properties of a simple two conductor twisted pair configuration. There are other noise cancellation winding geometries that are used in multi-conductor power cables.

5. The quality of the terminations. It does not make sense to go to great lengths to reduce noise in the cable body and then ignore the connectors. Shielding and noise reduction techniques must be used at the cable ends also.

[comfortablycurt]

Very nice write up, as always, DK.:)

[Hillbilly61]

Everything that a signal passes through has a noise characteristic. Better power cables shield against noise being induced from the environment and provide lower resistance, lower noise conductors for the power signal.

You want to preserve as much of a power conditioner's benefit as possible. A well shielded, low noise power cable does this.

For sure, everything in the path affects the signal. My question is more so system's engineering related. If I had to choose A verses B to stay within budget, which choice would lead to a better outcome? I might be willing to spend $400 on either, but not $800 on both sort of thing.

Hmmm, need to research.....

[DarqueKnight]

You generally get more noise reduction with a conditioner simply because there are a wider variety of noise reduction technologies applicable to conditioners than to cables. Designers of conditioners also don't have to worry about maintaining cable flexibility and interfacing a conditioner's size and weight with an audio component.

[lightman1]

No. There is far more to a power cable than the conductors. Things which contribute to noise filtration are:

1. The purity of the conductor material.

2. The type, quality, and quantity of conductor cladding.

3. The type, quality, and quantity of the cable jacketing material. For example, ferrite impregnated jackets have significant high frequency noise reduction properties.

4. The winding geometry of the conductors. I'm sure you are familiar with the noise cancellation properties of a simple two conductor twisted pair configuration. There are other noise cancellation winding geometries that are used in multi-conductor power cables.

5. The quality of the terminations. It does not make sense to go to great lengths to reduce noise in the cable body and then ignore the connectors. Shielding and noise reduction techniques must be used at the cable ends also.

But what about the RF that might be introduced just from the house wiring and utility sources I described? How will those factor in with these $500-600 power cables? Just to come from a wall socket to the gear. Seems like a lot to expect from a short piece of cable. IMOA

[lightman1]

opinion does not start with an A.:o

[DarqueKnight]

But what about the RF that might be introduced just from the house wiring and utility sources I described?

RF is not induced from house wiring and utility lines. RF comes for sources which emit electric fields.;)

Electric fields induce noise currents in unshielded cables that are located within the electric field. A properly shielded cable will have greatly reduced induced noise current once the influence of the field is removed or greatly diminished. The principle is the same as your cell phone reception greatly diminishing once you step inside a building.

Manufacturing a well shielded, low noise cable is not cheap.

[xcapri79]

Manufacturing a well shielded, low noise cable is not cheap.

Only for those audiophiles willing to pay ridiculous prices for it. Industrial control shielded cables shield against far worse electromagnetic transients than would ever be experienced in a home and they are not outrageously expensive. From an engineering perspective, there is also filtering at the power supply itself which makes sense from a technical and cost effectiveness point of view.

[xcapri79]

Of course, it is. Do yourself a favor and try some. You might have some credibility after that.

I use and in fact specify shielded cables for the industry I work in. Some audiophiles just carry some of this to a ridiculous extreme. Their often entertaining and well written justifications are invariably based on subjective opinion and perception and are seldom based on objective quantitative analysis. Simply stated, it is more of an art than a science.

[xcapri79]

You generally get more noise reduction with a conditioner simply because there are a wider variety of noise reduction technologies applicable to conditioners than to cables. Designers of conditioners also don't have to worry about maintaining cable flexibility and interfacing a conditioner's size and weight with an audio component.

Yes.

[DarqueKnight]

Manufacturing a well shielded, low noise cable is not cheap.


Only for those audiophiles willing to pay ridiculous prices for it. Industrial control shielded cables shield against far worse electromagnetic transients than would ever be experienced in a home and they are not outrageously expensive.

Pardon the lack of clarity in my previous statement. I assumed that everyone reading this would automatically assume that I was referring to power cables intended for providing a clean power signal to audio and audiophile grade components which process complex music signals and not industrial control cables which carry simple machine control signals.

You bring up an interesting point about EM transients. I have some familiarity with the EM noise frequencies and power levels that a music signal is likely to encounter in a home environment. I am interested in learning about the following:

1. Would you please enlighten us as to the types of EM noise frequencies and power levels that occur in industrial environments and contrast those with the EM environment in a typical home?

2. I am not an expert on cable shielding, but my understanding is that shielding characteristics for a particular cable will vary depending on the type(s) of signals it is to carry and the types of noise it will likely encounter.

For a home audio component, the goal is to shield against noise and filter noise. With that in mind, do you know that industrial power cables have appropriate shielding and noise filtration properties appropriate for audio applications?

3. Some of our forum members have experimented with building power cables. Can you suggest some industrial cables that might be suitable for audio power cable applications? Please quantitatively justify your recommendations.


From an engineering perspective, there is also filtering at the power supply itself which makes sense from a technical and cost effectiveness point of view.

This not only makes sense but it is absolutely required.


I use and in fact specify shielded cables for the industry I work in.

Excellent. You appear to be uniquely qualified to address questions 1-3 above. Thank you in advance for your contributions.


Some audiophiles just carry some of this to a ridiculous extreme.

I agree. I'm glad that you realize that only some audiophiles go to ridiculous extremes. There is a lunatic fringe in every hobby. Thank you for not stereotyping the entirety of our body with the extreme fetishes and practices of a few.



Their often entertaining and well written justifications are invariably based on subjective opinion and perception and are seldom based on objective quantitative analysis. Simply stated, it is more of an art than a science.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to point this out. I thought it was understood that listening to music and the enjoyment derived from that music is basically a subjective and perceptive process. Most people like certain sounds, colors, smells and tastes. Quantitative analysis provides a certain amount of insight, but most people don't require scientifically rigorous quantitative analysis to know whether a particular piece of audio gear enhances or diminishes their music enjoyment experience.

I have read some painstakingly researched and thorough analysis of power cable performance which demonstrate the beneficial effects of such cables, particularly with regard to more noise being removed from the power signal by better constructed, better shielded (and more expensive) power cables. Therefore, the quantitative analysis is definitely available for those who seek such knowledge.

If it could be demonstrated that a $10 power cable provides the same or better shielding and noise reduction benefits in audio applications as a cable costing hundreds of $$$, that would be a tremendous benefit to the audio community. I wonder why no one in the DIY community has done this? Since they are a technically competent and cost conscious group of people, it seems that there would be a plethora of such studies poo-pooing expensive power cables. Oddly enough, DIYer's were the first to enthusiastically embrace PS Audio's $400 Lab Power cable. Your thoughts?


Simply stated, it is more of an art than a science.

Again, I'm not sure why you feel the need to point this out. The audio hobby is all about reproducing a musical event. I thought it was common knowledge that making music is more of an art than a science.

[xcapri79]

Pardon the lack of clarity in my previous statement. I assumed that everyone reading this would automatically assume that I was referring to power cables intended for providing a clean power signal to audio and audiophile grade components which process complex music signals and not industrial control cables which carry simple machine control signals.

You bring up an interesting point about EM transients. I have some familiarity with the EM noise frequencies and power levels that a music signal is likely to encounter in a home environment. I am interested in learning about the following:

1. Would you please enlighten us as to the types of EM noise frequencies and power levels that occur in industrial environments and contrast those with the EM environment in a typical home?

2. I am not an expert on cable shielding, but my understanding is that shielding characteristics for a particular cable will vary depending on the type(s) of signals it is to carry and the types of noise it will likely encounter.

For a home audio component, the goal is to shield against noise and filter noise. With that in mind, do you know that industrial power cables have appropriate shielding and noise filtration properties appropriate for audio applications?

3. Some of our forum members have experimented with building power cables. Can you suggest some industrial cables that might be suitable for audio power cable applications? Please quantitatively justify your recommendations.



This not only makes sense but it is absolutely required.



Excellent. You appear to be uniquely qualified to address questions 1-3 above. Thank you in advance for your contributions.



I agree. I'm glad that you realize that only some audiophiles go to ridiculous extremes. There is a lunatic fringe in every hobby. Thank you for not stereotyping the entirety of our body with the extreme fetishes and practices of a few.




I'm not sure why you feel the need to point this out. I thought it was understood that listening to music and the enjoyment derived from that music is basically a subjective and perceptive process. Most people like certain sounds, colors, smells and tastes. Quantitative analysis provides a certain amount of insight, but most people don't require scientifically rigorous quantitative analysis to know whether a particular piece of audio gear enhances or diminishes their music enjoyment experience.




Again, I'm not sure why you feel the need to point this out. The audio hobby is all about reproducing a musical event. I thought it was common knowledge that making music is more of an art than a science.

Well there is Easter to contend with but here is a start.

First, let's stay on topic. The discussion concerned the requirements of 60 Hz power cable and not 10 - 20kHz audio cable. Nice trick, but it is a favorite debating method to change the subject.

Check out the shielded power cable made by Belden such as Belden 19364.

See also.
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/diyMains/

or

http://www.ramelectronics.net/power/power-cables/shielded-power-cable-drtpc/prodDRTPC.html#

For some basic theory on shielded cables see:
http://pm.geindustrial.com/FAQ/Documents/General/GER-3205.pdf

Control cable requirements not only includes simple on-off control but also include analog measurements of voltages via PT's & CVT's (63 to 120 V nominal in North America) and currents via CT's (1A or 5A nominal to 100 amps under fault conditions). We also use shielded cables in low level (0 - 1mA, or 1 - 20mA) transducer applications. In these applications we require high frequency response to 30th harmonic which is 1800 Hz for power quality analysis. When we look at back to back capacitor bank switching, we see transients on the order of several thousand Hz.

We use a sophisticated computer program called EMTP , electromagnetic transient analysis orginally developed by Dr. Hermann Dommel at the University of British Columbia for much of this analysis including power system and equipment modelling.

[treitz3]

Um, instead of changing the subject, could you please answer questions # 1-3, post #53. Thank you for your contributions.

[Face]

Instead of comparing apples to oranges, how about trying a few different power cords. Companies like Signal Cable and I even believe MIT's discount store have an excellent return policy within 30 days. Then you could speak form experience instead of just speculating.

[DarqueKnight]

Well there is Easter to contend with but here is a start.

Happy Easter to you and yours. There's no rush. Get back to the discussion whenever you can.


First, let's stay on topic. The discussion concerned the requirements of 60 Hz power cable and not 10 - 20kHz audio cable. Nice trick, but it is a favorite debating method to change the subject.

I specifically mentioned power cables 3 times and did not mention audio cables even once.

Please point out exactly where in post #53 I talked about the requirements of audio signal cables. I did speak of audio components and I spoke of power cables for audio components. If you reread, carefully, my response, you will find that I was talking about power cables and the environment that audio power cables encounter in a home environment.

Now, would you please stay on topic and address questions 1-3 from post #53? Those questions specifically pertain to the suitability of industrial power cables with home audio equipment. Thank you.


Check out the shielded power cable made by Belden such as Belden 19364.

See also.
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/diyMains/

or

http://www.ramelectronics.net/power/power-cables/shielded-power-cable-drtpc/prodDRTPC.html#

Most people here know that you don't have to spend a fortune to get a good power cable, just like you don't have to spend a fortune to get a good dependable car. I thought it was common knowledge that the more performance you want, from anything, the more you will have to pay.

I use Signal Cable MagicPower cords, most of which are well under $100, in my three home audio/video systems and in my audio system at work. My two channel system has equipment of much higher resolving power and is more affected by noise in the power signal. Accordingly, with the exception of my turntable motor power supply, I use higher performance, higher cost PS Audio power cords. I also use a combination of passive power line filtering and AC regeneration in the two channel system.


Control cable requirements not only includes simple on-off control but also include analog measurements of voltages via PT's & CVT's (63 to 120 V nominal in North America) and currents via CT's (1A or 5A nominal to 100 amps under fault conditions). We also use shielded cables in low level (0 - 1mA, or 1 - 20mA) transducer applications. In these applications we require high frequency response to 30th harmonic which is 1800 Hz for power quality analysis. When we look at back to back capacitor bank switching, we see transients on the order of several thousand Hz.

You're not helping much. Getting back to questions 1-3 in post #53, high performance audio equipment requires a clean, low noise power signal for optimum performance. Is the same true of industrial equipment? Do industrial power cords have the same requirements for maintaining power signal purity and integrity as that high performance audio power cords?

[F1nut]

I use and in fact specify shielded cables for the industry I work in. Some audiophiles just carry some of this to a ridiculous extreme. Their often entertaining and well written justifications are invariably based on subjective opinion and perception and are seldom based on objective quantitative analysis. Simply stated, it is more of an art than a science.

So, you use shielded power cables in your industry, but not in your home audio system. Do I have that right?

[DarqueKnight]

^^^Along those lines...it would be very helpful to know the costs of the shielded power cables used in your industry in addition to their performance parameters.

I am trying to determine if your industrial power cables would offer comparable power signal integrity and noise rejection for lower cost than is available with high performance audio power cables.

[Hillbilly61]

I don't think whether or not if shielded cable used in a professional environment has any bearing upon whether or not it is advantageous in home audio, unless the applications and environments are very similar. The same applies to the ambient RF environment and, probably, more so. A business RF environment can be very noisy, as even things like air conditioner motors, etc are big beefy things that spew out all sorts of localized radio and magnetic waves. Plus, many businesses use 3 phase power, making noise potential all the greater.

I used to posses a magnetometer that was sensitive to 1 microhenry. To illustrate, a 15" wide steel beam would typically create a 50 mH flux within 6" of it. (No power added. Just the iron interacting with the earth's magnetic field). It was amazing how ambient magnetic fields varied within office buildings, sometimes pegging the meter at 1000 mH. I don't know if my house was representative or not, but it was a helova lot quieter, with around 200 mH max.

Probably, the disconnect for me is how a 3 ft. uber wire somehow filters or shields the environment feeding an amplifier circuit. If anything, it seems, the ultra pure wire would help pass along electrical noise already present in the house current. The shielding could help with the mess of wires behind my amp and the wall. It could prevent the AC inductance from interacting with the speaker and component wires. That makes sense.

Another thought I had on this topic is whether SS amps are more subseptable to noise than tubes. By their analog nature, tubes should wash out brief transients associated with noise that SS would be more apt to detect & amplify. I'm just guessing though.

By the way, was there a legitimate reason for one or more folks to post those tags on this thread? This is the first adult toned thread on a controversial topic I've seen in this forum for some time. Don't ruin it please.

[messiah]

Thanks for the write up DK, it should be made a sticky!

[DarqueKnight]

Probably, the disconnect for me is how a 3 ft. uber wire somehow filters or shields the environment feeding an amplifier circuit. If anything, it seems, the ultra pure wire would help pass along electrical noise already present in the house current. The shielding could help with the mess of wires behind my amp and the wall. It could prevent the AC inductance from interacting with the speaker and component wires. That makes sense.

The filtering is not in the wire conductors themselves. Noise cancellation and noise filtration is accomplished by the winding geometry of the conductors and by the types of noise filtering materials (eg. ferrite impregnation) used in the conductor cladding and cable jacket.

High purity, higher conductivity wire helps by not restricting current and by not adding significantly more noise to the power signal.


Another thought I had on this topic is whether SS amps are more susceptible to noise than tubes. By their analog nature, tubes should wash out brief transients associated with noise that SS would be more apt to detect & amplify. I'm just guessing though.

I don't know. I don't have any experience with tube amps other than listening to them in stores, at shows and in other people's homes. We have forum members who own or have owned both SS and tube amps and who use high performance power cables. Perhaps one or more of them will offer some insight based on their personal experience.

[DarqueKnight]

Thanks for the write up DK, it should be made a sticky!

It might turn into a sticky mess.:p

[Flash21]

The biggest problem with premium power cables is that nay sayers will point to the cheap Romex in the wall and challenge you to a valid explanation how the premium power cable can change the electricity that was generated miles away.
I had this very question when I started to hear about different "sounding" power cables. It seemed ridiculous.

Then I broke down and tried a few of the less expensive ones....and lo and behold, I did hear a difference. As much as I hate it, I now have big, thick power cables on my system.

[DarqueKnight]

Since most power cable skeptics are reluctant to acquire some power cables for an in-home, money back guarantee evaluation, I offer this proposition that costs nothing more that time:

1. Go to any premium power cable manufacturer's website and copy the URL's of some of the technical descriptions of some of their power cables. PS Audio, Audioquest, and Shunyata are three good ones that come to mind.

2. Locate a knowledgeable technical support person at one of the companies that make power cables in the sub $50 price range.

3. Point the tech support person to the premium power cable description and pricing URL's and ask them if the performance claims made by these companies are ridiculous. If the claims are ridiculous, ask them to technically justify their opinion.

4. If the claims are valid, ask them if they have a product with comparable performance. If they do, please note the cost of their comparable power cables.

5. If the tech support person's company does not offer a comparable product, ask them if the prices charged by Audioquest, PS Audio, Shunyata, etc. are way out of line for the performance claimed.

6. Share your results with the forum or at some other publicly accessible venue.

I'm sure the informed and technically justified insights from expert power cable manufacturing sources will prove more valuable than all the anecdotal evidence bandied about on Internet forums. It certainly will prove infinitely more valuable than the speculation and conjecture from people with no personal experience with high performance power cables.

Thank you for your consideration.

Who's going to volunteer for this?

[DarqueKnight]

Then I broke down and tried a few of the less expensive ones....and lo and behold, I did hear a difference. As much as I hate it, I now have big, thick power cables on my system.

How do you know that your mind isn't playing tricks on you?

How do you know that you didn't fall victim to the dreaded "placebo effect"?

I know how I know, but I want to know how you know.

[BlueFox]

2. Locate a knowledgeable technical support person at one of the companies that make power cables in the sub $50 price range.


That definitely falls into the "easier said than done" category.


I have 7 boxes (Wadia iPod dock, Dac1, tuner, SACD, pre, amp, amp) plugged into a power conditioner, which then plugs into the wall. One day I will have the house rewired, but now the wiring is original from 1958. At least it is burnt in by now. :)

However, I did have the panel upgraded to 200W within the last year, and I know that improved the internal power since the lights no longer flicker when the washing machine runs. Plus, the power company recently put a new, and bigger, transformer on the pole in my backyard, and I get my power directly from it. So, I hope, that helps.

Anyway, my point is rather than upgrade the power cable on all 7 components I hope just upgrading the one cable for the power conditioner will have a postive, noticible effect on everything.

[Flash21]

How do you know that your mind isn't playing tricks on you?

How do you know that you didn't fall victim to the dreaded "placebo effect"?

I know how I know, but I want to know how you know.
First of all, I hate the thought of spending money on power cables. They certainly aren't sexy enough for me to want to show them off. So I'm not fooling myself, or engaging in wishful thinking. As a thrifty Scandinavian, I would love nothing better than to sell them if I didn't think they did something beneficial.

Secondly, I evaluated the power cables in blind testing with a friend of mine. We achieved consistent and repeatable results. We are careful not to let one of us lead the other into conclusions; the person who doesn't know which cable is in play always state his opinion before the other person comments. And we are careful to change only one variable at a time in these evaluations, whenever possible.

[xcapri79]

Well I had a nice Easter, I had been educated by by some magnificent prose on this forum. I was delighted with my enhanced knowledge, but joy soon turned into sorrow.
My Easter was ruined when I looked at my beautiful Polk Audio LSi25 speakers to see a plain old power cord on it. It was crushing to me. Then I looked further and saw a plain old power cord permanently attached to my Pioneer Elite SC-07 receiver and Pioneer Elite DC-48AV DVD player. Horror of horrors - top of the line high quality audio equipment with those woefully substandard permanently attached power cords!

I guess those engineers at Polk Audio and Pioneer need to be reprimanded for their carelessness. They obviously don't appreciate the good engineering do they! Pioneer even had the audacity to put Elite on their product name. How could they do this yet attach that excuse for a power cord?!

Perhaps I should file a complaint with their customer service departments. I can cite all the esteemed Polk Audio Forum members from this thread that support the expensive power cord requirement theory.

Now I understand that everything has a cost to it and these manufacturers tried to save their customers money on the power cord and its attachment. Perhaps they can do a recall of all their equpment with this deficiency so that they can retrofit a proper power cord receptacle so that I may attach a proper one.

Thank you for all your support in advance.

"It's morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money."
W. C. Fields

[DarqueKnight]

"Abuse is the last refuge of the outwitted." :)
- Confucious

[F1nut]

Too funny.....Nothing you own is top of the line high quality audio equipment. Perhaps you should file a complaint with whomever it was that told you it was.

[dragon1952]

Well I had a nice Easter, I had been educated by by some magnificent prose on this forum. I was delighted with my enhanced knowledge, but joy soon turned into sorrow.
My Easter was ruined when I looked at my beautiful Polk Audio LSi25 speakers to see a plain old power cord on it. It was crushing to me. Then I looked further and saw a plain old power cord permanently attached to my Pioneer Elite SC-07 receiver and Pioneer Elite DC-48AV DVD player. Horror of horrors - top of the line high quality audio equipment with those woefully substandard permanently attached power cords!

I guess those engineers at Polk Audio and Pioneer need to be reprimanded for their carelessness. They obviously don't appreciate the good engineering do they! Pioneer even had the audacity to put Elite on their product name. How could they do this yet attach that excuse for a power cord?!

Perhaps I should file a complaint with their customer service departments. I can cite all the esteemed Polk Audio Forum members from this thread that support the expensive power cord requirement theory.

Now I understand that everything has a cost to it and these manufacturers tried to save their customers money on the power cord and its attachment. Perhaps they can do a recall of all their equpment with this deficiency so that they can retrofit a proper power cord receptacle so that I may attach a proper one.

Thank you for all your support in advance.

"It's morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money."
W. C. Fields

Didn't Pioneer also include some "IC's" with those components, along with the power cords? Something like in the picture below maybe? I'm sure those are what you are using because they certainly wouldn't include anything that would degrade the sound of their top-of-the line equipment.

[dragon1952]

edited.............I'm just getting too nice in my old age :rolleyes:

[polkie4life]

Too funny.....Nothing you own is top of the line high quality audio equipment. Perhaps you should file a complaint with whomever it was that told you it was.

+1

I think DK and others have pointed out numerous times before... You need revealing gear to really hear any differences.

I wasn't a believer but since the acquisition of a new amp i can hear the difference of both power cord, and interconnects especially.

[F1nut]

But it says 'Elite' :confused:

Reminds me of this girl who told me she drove a 'Vette. I asked her what year Corvette. She said, no not a Corvette, a Chevette. :rolleyes:

[xcapri79]

My faith in humanity is thus restored!

http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/02/06/hot-glue-garden-hose-and-iron-filings-only-195/

http://www.dansdata.com/danletters117.htm#7

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/pear-cable-science

[xcapri79]

Reminds me of this girl who told me she drove a 'Vette. I asked her what year Corvette. She said, no not a Corvette, a Chevette. :rolleyes:

As a Guru do you really levitate?

[F1nut]

As a Guru do you really levitate?

Absolutely and no, that's not rain falling on your head.

[xcapri79]

More common sense!

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/top-ten-signs-an-audio-cable-vendor-is-selling-you-snake-oil/audioquest-responds-to-top-10-snake-oil-article

I quote, "Exotic cable psuedo science only exists in consumer audio. Why is that? In our opinion it appears the exotic cable industry thrives on consumer ignorance and a lack of industry checks and balances. Audioquest and other exotic cable vendors claim all sorts of "audible distortions" from cables. Yet they offer no measurable proofs or methods for analysis. Ever hear of a device called the "Audio Precision One". This proven and industry standard audio analyzer is capable of measuring audio distortions well below human audibility. Surely if all of this distortion was present, a simple measurement would prove it. No? Have Audioquest and other exotic cable vendors discovered new types of audible distortions not currently known by proven science and engineering disciplines? If so, why not publish a paper on it at AES or IEEE and have it peer reviewed. It may even be worthy of a Nobel Prize."

Quotation from Gene DellaSala (GDS)
President of Audioholics.com
"Pursuing the Truth in Audio and Video"

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/pear-cable-science/audible-significance-engineering

http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=12&blogId=1

http://theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Our_Philosophy/

[hearingimpared]

Google is definitely YOUR friend. Why won't you answer the questions posed to you?

[xcapri79]

Google is definitely YOUR friend. Why won't you answer the questions posed to you?

Fortunately there is some good information out there.
You should read it some time. I even made it easy for you by providing the links.

Anyways on a Easter Sunday, I responded with some information that was obviously not read. That is fine. I provided some examples of reasonably priced shielded cables and an example of a DIY cable.

I didn't make the extraordinary claims.
Please read the following:
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2008/01/extraordinary-c.html

A 500kV EHV substation requires shielded cable. I linked to a GE paper that discusses the technical aspects of this.
But it is really required in a home? The op needs to substantiate this. He is making the claim.

The op was in error when he commented on industrial control cable requirements.


Pardon the lack of clarity in my previous statement. I assumed that everyone reading this would automatically assume that I was referring to power cables intended for providing a clean power signal to audio and audiophile grade components which process complex music signals and not industrial control cables which carry simple machine control signals.

Noting that his technical knowledge really didn't go very far, I explained the types of signals that industrial control cables actaully carried. Putting "audio" cables on a pedestal is something control system and RF engineers get a good chuckle over. There was really no need to respond much further and particularly to his drones. You can believe in fairy tales. It is still a free country.

[hearingimpared]

Well you've done a fine job of convincing yourself that aftermarket power cables are snake oil and fairy tales. Your mission is now formally complete. Too bad your meaningless posts won't self destruct.

[dragon1952]

I love it when people are too lazy to try something themselves so that they can actually make an informed decision, but they still feel the need to 'educate' others who have, by quoting people they have never even met, about a subject they know nothing about :confused:
"Yep....I don't know shit from shinola about it, but it sure sounds plausible to me, therefore it must be true! I better tell everyone else. Even if they've actually tried it and got a different result. This guy here that I've never met says it ain't so, and they wouldn't have printed it on the internet if it wasn't true, so it must be right. Good....so now I can cop out and not have to try it myself..... because I'm too freakin' lazy and cheap anyway, nyuck, nyuck......but now I've got a built-in excuse! And I can even cover it up further by telling everyone else they are stupid!"

[dragon1952]

Do you actually think no one here has ever read those links you gave? Most of those are old as the hills. Of course we read them, and a million others. It's the same thing every time. You guys post all these links like no one else knows how to freakin' use the internet, or ever thought of doing their own research.

[treitz3]

xcapri79......................FAIL.

Three questions that with your self-proclaimed experience and knowledge [since you work in the field] should have been answered without Google, and without having to think about it. You sir, have failed.

Loss of all credibility has been awarded to you. Turn in your audiophile card at the office before the door hits you on the way out. Thanks for playing. Have a nice day.

[AudioGenics]

Karl Groos and Gustav Fechner was here

[inspiredsports]

. . . y'all can talk big time power cords to a piece of gear and tout its benefits of SQ. But why would your connect a 4" water hose to to a 1/2 inch spiggot and expect it to produce more pressure.

First, spigot. Second, because it isn't a bigger hose and no one expects "more pressure" delivered to their components. That's simply a bad analogy. It's the filtering properties of using better quality components that makes the difference in garnering cleaner power. Last, put your background on the shelf and give it a try.

[reeltrouble1]

I smell ass, burning ass, glowing cherry red spanked ass.

RT1

[inspiredsports]

. . . putting "audio" cables on a pedestal is something control system and RF engineers get a good chuckle over . . .

I don't believe many here "put audio cables on a pedestal". We put them in our audio systems and note the sonic results. You might try it yourself sometime.

[amulford]

This was a useless spending of twenty minutes of my life. Good thing I'm being handsomely compensated to read this drivel.

Raife, as always, very nice read.

Capri, why don't you just shut the f#ck up and let others "make their own mistakes"... You don't have the credibility here to back your assertions, and no matter how much you google others peoples opinions, I have yet to see a technical analysis or paper with your signature on it...

[amulford]

I smell ass, burning ass, glowing cherry red spanked ass.

RT1


I like that! :D

'Sup Big Daddy!!!

[Flash21]

My Easter was ruined when I looked at my beautiful Polk Audio LSi25 speakers to see a plain old power cord on it. It was crushing to me. Then I looked further and saw a plain old power cord permanently attached to my Pioneer Elite SC-07 receiver and Pioneer Elite DC-48AV DVD player. Horror of horrors - top of the line high quality audio equipment with those woefully substandard permanently attached power cords!
Not trying to be snide about it (unlike some), but it is certainly possible your equipment doesn't have the resolution necessary to achieve much benefit from premium power cords. I didn't mess with power cords until I moved up from Rotel's best stuff to the Bel Canto etc.

[reeltrouble1]

YOU are the man Flashbang (unlike some). I gave up on snide, mostly now I just snatch.

RT1

[xcapri79]

I'm sorry for upsetting your flat earth society.
It is interesting and predictable how fire ants behave isn't it?

[reeltrouble1]

you gotta admit the entertainment factor is Outstanding with this one.

smoked insurgent, looks good, however, the mold factor takes over pretty quick.

nothing like a crispy dumb ass newb to get the world straight though saving us all.

some sad news though, I hear the other villiage idiot was run over flagging a Greyhound Bus he was waiting on, they are now in need of a replacement. Perhaps it is time to end the search for the penny in the corner of the round room and move up. Stay on the curb though.

RT1

[Hillbilly61]

There is a phenominon known as phychoacoustics. Basically, this little parallel processor we (well, most of us) carry around between our ears has an uncanny way of being able to detect difficult to measure things. This partly explains why tube amplification has a following, when detailed bench tests show tube amps to be not as good as similar quality SS amps. I do not believe that many here will argue that tube amplification does not have a legitimate place in sound reproduction.

Here is an interesting little read:

http://www.norh.com/docs/psychoacoustics.html

[reeltrouble1]

no doubt test tube babies are also legitimate and have a grounding in reproduction.

RT1--Tubes Rule.

[xcapri79]

There is a phenominon known as phychoacoustics. Basically, this little parallel processor we (well, most of us) carry around between our ears has an uncanny way of being able to detect difficult to measure things. This partly explains why tube amplification has a following, when detailed bench tests show tube amps to be not as good as similar quality SS amps. I do not believe that many here will argue that tube amplification does not have a legitimate place in sound reproduction.

Here is an interesting little read:

http://www.norh.com/docs/psychoacoustics.html

I've used tube amplifiers for years for audio and for RF amplification. It was state of the art at one time. Amateur radio operators needed to be able to explain their function as part of their examination process. Many still prefer tube amps today. The inherent simplicity and good performance of tube amplifiers remains their strong point, however i've moved on to class D ICE amps for now.

BOSE is famous for taking advantage of psychoacoustics and perhaps infamous for taking advantage of people's gullibility.

[reeltrouble1]

no mistaking the sound of a Yak, then there is the smell.

The train has left the station on this one.

RT1

[xcapri79]

you gotta admit the entertainment factor is Outstanding with this one.

smoked insurgent, looks good, however, the mold factor takes over pretty quick.

nothing like a crispy dumb ass newb to get the world straight though saving us all.

some sad news though, I hear the other villiage idiot was run over flagging a Greyhound Bus he was waiting on, they are now in need of a replacement. Perhaps it is time to end the search for the penny in the corner of the round room and move up. Stay on the curb though.

RT1

There are certainly plenty of master and guru drones on this forum who would qualify. And you would think they would know better.... It is the old story that quantity doesn't necessarily mean quality.

[DarqueKnight]

I can cite all the esteemed Polk Audio Forum members from this thread that support the expensive power cord requirement theory.


A 500kV EHV substation requires shielded cable. I linked to a GE paper that discusses the technical aspects of this.
But it is really required in a home? The op needs to substantiate this. He is making the claim.

This is a thread on premium cable history. You seem to have a pathological need to turn it into another rancorous cable debate.

I, or no one else on this forum, has ever said that high performance power cables were required. Where exactly are you seeing these things that you attribute to me? I know you do a lot of reading on the Internet. Perhaps you are getting your websites confused?


Please point out exactly where in post #53 I talked about the requirements of audio signal cables. I did speak of audio components and I spoke of power cables for audio components. If you reread, carefully, my response, you will find that I was talking about power cables and the environment that audio power cables encounter in a home environment.

Now, would you please stay on topic and address questions 1-3 from post #53? Those questions specifically pertain to the suitability of industrial power cables with home audio equipment. Thank you.

You accused me of going off topic and I asked you to point out where I had done so and to answer a few technical questions. Rather than do that, you again go off topic and start talking about off-brand cables that no one here uses (Pear, Virtual Dynamics, Nautilus Technology). You can find high priced junk in every merchandise category. So what?

Most of us here use Audioquest, PS Audio, Shunyata, Signal, etc., etc. We would be very interested in someone taking apart a PS Audio power cable and verifying that it is constructed as claimed by PSA.

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s23/darqueknight88/ps-pwr-cable/PS_Cable-FP-1.jpg
Figure 1. PS Audio power cable internal arrangement.

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s23/darqueknight88/ps-pwr-cable/PS_cables.jpg
Figure 2. PS Audio power cable internal arrangement.


My faith in humanity is thus restored!

http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/02/06/hot-glue-garden-hose-and-iron-filings-only-195/

http://www.dansdata.com/danletters117.htm#7

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/pear-cable-science

I wouldn't be so quick to put my faith in these "sources". Lets look at the Audioholics article you quoted which examines Pear brand cable. A couple of quotes from the article are interesting:

"Pear Cable was chosen for this case study not to specifically single the company out, but because they are currently a high profile example of just what Audioholics has spoken out against when dealing with unfounded advertising claims based on sciency sounding jargon without any real root in science.

Numerous engineering experts in various fields of electrical, audio, and loudspeaker engineering have also stated this opinion. Such experts include Dr. Howard Johnson of Signal Consulting Inc., John Dunlavy most recently of Dunlavy Audio Labs, and Roger Russell formerly Director of Acoustic Research for McIntosh Laboratory. Each of these gentlemen has spoken out against exaggerated claims of cable effects on audio reproduction in various venues..."

Pear cable is "high profile"? Ridiculous! Had you ever heard of Pear cable prior to seeing the Audioholics "expose"? Why didn't Audioholics pick a truly global and well established brand like PS Audio or Audioquest? I bet you've heard of them haven't you? As if the selection of a fringe lunatic brand like Pear cable wasn't ridiculous enough, Audioholics includes John Dunlavy, of all people, on their panel of esteemed experts.

The date of the Audioholics article is May 13, 2008. It is interesting that John Dunlavy would be chosen for such an article. Audioholics stated that he is one of a select group of gentlemen who has "spoken out against exaggerated claims of cable effects on audio reproduction...".

I have attached a price list dated January 1, 2000 for Dunlavy Audio Labs loudspeaker cables and interconnects. At one time, John Dunlavy sold speaker cables ranging in price from $400 to $675 per pair and interconnect cables ranging in price from $125 to $1,250 per pair.

Here are some research questions for you and another opportunity for you to edify the forum:

1. Did John Dunlavy speak out against exaggerated claims of cable effects before or after he began selling high priced cables?

2. Why did Audioholics pick an obscure, off-brand cable for their study? Why didn't they just ask John Dunlavy to bring a pair of his $675 speaker cables or a pair of his $500 interconnects for evaluation? I would have loved to read his explanation as to why his cables were better than the exaggerated claims of others.

3. It is a shame that Dunlavy Audio Labs went out of business in 2002. This was just as the market for high performance power cables was taking off. Using your extraordinary powers of speculative foresight, do you think that, had DAL managed to stay in business, they would have offered a high priced, high performance power cable to go with their high priced, high performance loudspeaker and interconnect cables?

4. Was Audioholics even aware that John Dunlavy sold expensive cables? His cables were not well received in the marketplace, so it is possible this escaped their attention.

5. John Dunlavy made some really, really nice speakers. He never did manage to break into the lucrative high end cable market. He was also not able to maintain his speaker manufacturing business. Was there some residual bitterness? Seems like most of the cable naysayers have an "axe to grind".


The op was in error when he commented on industrial control cable requirements.

Noting that his technical knowledge really didn't go very far, I explained the types of signals that industrial control cables actually carried.

Since my technical knowledge is lacking, why didn't you seize the opportunity to educate me by answering my three simple questions in post #53?


There was really no need to respond much further and particularly to his drones. You can believe in fairy tales. It is still a free country.

OK, then why even pay this thread any attention? Couldn't that time be better spent listening to and watching the glorious high resolution output of your $350 "top of the line" Pioneer Elite DC-48AV DVD player?

You were asked to try some high performance cables and you balked. Subsequently, you listed some of your audio components and you revealed that they all have captive power cords.

The makers of recent model audio components who believe that their products might benefit from a better power cord always include an IEC socket on the back. Since you have recent model components that do not have an IEC socket, it is clear that the manufacturers of those components did not feel that they offered sufficient resolution to benefit from an upgraded power cord.

Therefore, your participation in this discussion is questionable and moot. You should come back when your stereo grows up...when you have some relevant personal experience to share.;)

All you seem to want to do is rehash the same old tired, bitter cable naysayer diatribes to an unreceptive audience.

Is your life really that empty?

Perhaps when you get some really nice gear that you really enjoy, you won't be so anxious to disparage what other people are enjoying in their audio systems.

Enjoy the music (if you can).:)

[reeltrouble1]

the familiarity of his echo speaks volumes. a repeat button would be far more economical. but then the linking does come close.

anyway, you missed, aim higher.

anti hi-fi audio insurgents beware.

its just to easy DK.

RT1

[reeltrouble1]

for the record RT1 and other CP members use and support Virtual Dynamic Power cables.

RT1

[DarqueKnight]

Thanks for the correction Ted. I recall your review of the VD demo power cable a few months back. They should have been grouped with PSA and AQ in my post. For some reason I always get VD mixed up with Machina Dynamica.:o

[amulford]

I'm sorry for upsetting your flat earth society.
It is interesting and predictable how fire ants behave isn't it?


Who the f#ck are you kidding? Flat Earth society? Listen up there whistledick, if you think you are impressing anyone espousing psuedo techinical bullshit, you need to get over yourself. You are asking to compare two very different applications and parading about proclaiming your intimate knowledge of the subject matter. What complete and utter bullshit.

I, my good fellow, have over 20 years in the proffesion of industrial measurement and controls. I have even more history in audiophilia. I very much respect the opinions of others whom I daresay may have even more experience in the aforementioned than myself. For alas, I may not be THE expert in these matters. I do feel, however, I have a fairly good grasp of the subject matter.

DO NOT THINK YOU CAN PUSH YOUR OPINIONS DOWN OUR THROATS. This has been tried numerous times before; and to be frank we weary of asshats such as yourself continuously attempting to do so.

So do us all a favor and place your OPINIONS in with the same genus as they propagate.

"Those that don't know, don't know, that they don't know"

[DarqueKnight]

Guys,

The antagonist has said that his current equipment configuration renders a cable evaluation impossible. I see little, if anything, to be gained by further engaging someone who admittedly has no experienced insight to share and who is probably very envious of those who do.

Since we are such a wretched lot, why would such an "enlightened" individual, who currently only owns equipment with captive power cords, even waste time in a discussion on detachable power cords? That is like a Toyota Tercel owner spewing a bitter diatribe on the impracticality and wastefulness of high performance tires for Ferrari's.

The antagonist did say this was a free country didn't he?

Aren't we then free to believe in whatever fairy tales we choose? Aren't we free to spend our hobby money any way we choose?

What kind of loser gets upset over the lawful, largely subjective leisure activities of other people?

[reeltrouble1]

for free a metorite can fall on his head pulverizing him to the earth leaving a toxic waste for the EPA to come in and dispose of.

A fitting and happy ending as well.

RT1

[hearingimpared]

I'm sorry for upsetting your flat earth society.
It is interesting and predictable how fire ants behave isn't it?

Now that you've been exposed as a complete fraud and trouble maker you are going to resort to insults. How typical.

[DarqueKnight]

"Abuse is the last refuge of the outwitted." :)
- Confucious

....:p

[DarqueKnight]

for free a metorite can fall on his head pulverizing him to the earth leaving a toxic waste for the EPA to come in and dispose of.

A fitting and happy ending as well.


Such sledgehammer-ish remedies are wasted and totally unnecessary for an Internet troll. However, I do know a few lawyers I'd like to sign up for "treatment".:)

Who's keeping time for how long it takes for this one to go running to Polk management claiming he's being abused?

[F1nut]

I'm sorry for upsetting your flat earth society.

Ummm....you seem confused. The Flat Earth Society is a group of naysayers, like yourself.




It is interesting and predictable how fire ants behave isn't it?

Yes it is. Fire ants are much like any human family or group of close friends in that they will stand together to defend one another from outside threats. Isn't nature great!?!

[DarqueKnight]

Fire ants are much like any human family or group of close friends in that they will stand together to defend one another from outside threats.

I don't want to talk about fire ants.

I want to talk about the apparent conflict of interest in John Dunlavy serving on an Audioholics cable naysayer panel in 2008 to beat up on poor old Pear Cable knowing all the while that he was peddling under performing, yet expensive, loudspeaker and interconnect cables as recently as 2002 (that's when DAL "folded up").

This makes me question the credibility and motivations of the other "esteemed" experts on that AH panel.

Your thoughts?

[heiney9]

Xcapri all I see are a bunch of others opinions (in all your Google searches).............so how is it your version of common sense (which is based on opinion) is any more correct than our (people who believe cables matter) version of common sense. My common sense tells me if I hear a difference in certain types of cables I should invest in those if the differences are positive and rewarding to my listening experience?

Apparently you haven't read or understood my SIG, please take the time to let that sink in.

H9

[DarqueKnight]

Ummmm....H9.....did you see the part where he said none of his gear has detachable power cords?

Did you see the Audioholics reference?

Do you think he is here to add anything constructive to the discussion?

[heiney9]

^^ yes I did, but I was just trying to see if he could justify why his position is correct and the rest of our positions are wrong when all he has done is added his own as well as the other opinion references.

It's mainly rhetorical as I don;t think he will give a sufficient answer..............because he thinks his *opinion* is the only option and he has nothing constructive add. He won;t be taking his blinders off anytime soon...........or ever I suspect.

[F1nut]

I don't want to talk about fire ants.

I want to talk about the apparent conflict of interest in John Dunlavy serving on an Audioholics cable naysayer panel in 2008 to beat up on poor old Pear Cable knowing all the while that he was peddling under performing, yet expensive, loudspeaker and interconnect cables as recently as 2002 (that's when DAL "folded up").

This makes me question the credibility and motivations of the other "esteemed" experts on that AH panel.

Your thoughts?

Yes, apparent conflict indeed. It would also seem to be a matter of sour grapes on Mr. Dunlavy's part. I wonder if fire ants had anything to do with that as they do like a good leafy plant. ;)

[dragon1952]

I'm sorry for upsetting your flat earth society.
It is interesting and predictable how fire ants behave isn't it?

You copped the attitude with your 'Easter' post. You write a condescending post trying to belittle everyone and expect no recourse? :confused:

[DarqueKnight]

I just wish everyone could enjoy what they have and not have a conniption fit and assemble an "expert" panel to bash other people's entertainment devices.

I mean, really, I don't think any of us would go to a crack den and give a lecture on the evils of drug abuse would we?

By the way, this is somewhat off topic, but I just wanted you to know that I have ordered four Isoclean audio grade 1 Amp 5x20mm slow blow fuses to replace the two rail fuses in each of my JC 1 mono blocks. I replaced the JC 1's 12 Amp power line fuses a while ago and liked the improvement.

I also ordered HiFi Tuning audio grade 0.5 Amp slow blow 6.3x32mm power line fuses for my Pass Labs line level and phono preamps. I would have preferred to have ordered Isoclean fuses for the Pass gear, but they don't make a 0.5 Amp 6.3x32mm fuse. The consensus of those who have tried both the Isoclean and the HiFi Tuning fuses is that the Isocleans are more....um...clean. One of our members up in Canada tried the HiFi Tuning fuses in some appropriate gear and really liked them.

Review forthcoming.

[DarqueKnight]

You copped the attitude with your 'Easter' post. You write a condescending post trying to belittle everyone and expect no recourse? :confused:

Well, true to form, weren't the condescension and insults expected? Isn't what Confucious said over 2000 years ago still true today?


"Abuse is the last refuge of the outwitted." :)
- Confucious

Anyway, if we can leave the trolls under the mushrooms and get back to cables...aren't these works of art?

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s23/darqueknight88/ps-pwr-cable/PS_Cable-FP-1.jpg
Figure 1. PS Audio power cable internal arrangement.

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s23/darqueknight88/ps-pwr-cable/PS_cables.jpg
Figure 2. PS Audio power cable internal arrangement.

I have one of the red ones (copper only) and five of the blue ones (copper/silver). I use the red one behind my AC regenerator. A thicker and more expensive blue cable didn't sound any better than a red cable in that location.

Such Good Sound.

[Hillbilly61]

[QUOTE=DarqueKnight;1049993]
...aren't these works of art?
QUOTE]

They sure arrre perrtty. Niiicer look'n than new tars on a fancy car!

Seriously, how is strain relief provided for a retrofit like this? Just add a cable tie or something? I didn't look in the back of my amp, but most mfgr installed power cables provide a degree of strain relief by having a nipple like arraingement built into the end of the cable that mates with the backplate of the device.

[DarqueKnight]

Those connectors are 3" long and provide a measure of strain relief. After that, you're on your own. You also need 6" of clearance behind the audio component for a 90 degree bend.

[amulford]

I have found that snug connections are a must. With the heavy construction, it often advisable , IMHO, to allow for a little more room and provide some sort of horizontal support. YMMV

[dorokusai]

Locked until further notice....good job guys, way to be adults.