Too much tube love

[Ern Dog]

Just for kicks, I bought a nice tube amp for the first time and I've got it mated with a tube preamp and a tube cdp. It's a Rogue Augio 90 watt amp and this boy is the heaviest amp I've ever owned. It's totally a pain in the arse to get into my rack. All the tubes are the original stock tubes. Did my first bias procedure and it was painless and quick. It's only been a couple days, but wanted to give my initial impressions....

I have definitely lost somthing in the deal because now all the edges have been smoothed over maybe too much. I feel like I've lost some dynamic range and lost some detail too. I do like the touch of warmth it adds. Bass is good; a tad bloated. Right now my rig sounds too far in the "Tubey" zone and it is masking the other benefits. The best thing about tubes is being able to roll in something different to get a good fit.

Nick over at Rogue recommended I upgrade the power tubes from EH KT-88 to EH KT-90's for increased Dynamics. For more detail he recommended changing the input tube to RCA 12ax7's or Sylvania or NOS.

I hope I can tweak the amp to my liking. More to come on this...

Ern-Dog

[engtaz]

Congrats, man I only wish I had tube gear.

[dragon1952]

I had the same problem and decided to go with a solid state CD player, which solved the problem. You might try some silver IC's also.

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

I don’t know whether to feel sorry, or congratulate you for all the options you have.:D

[phipiper10]

Seems a lot of tube lovers will say you can't have enough tubes but just as many say the best combo they have found is with the tube pre and SS amp. I've never had a tube amp so have no first hand experience and ymmv.

I've been concerned about adding a tube amp for the reasons you are describing. I'm actually looking for slightly more more detail with my rig now without getting analytical. Looking for some tweaks to accomplish this ;

Tube change in the pre
Cap upgrade in the pre
Some of Ben's ICs next time I can grab some in the FM

Good luck with your next step - some new tubes or ICs could help. Keep us updated.

[HB27]

Congrats,
Your journey into tube rolling is about to begin. To save some bucks you might make a new best friend with a bunch of spare tubes laying around. The RCA and Sylvania 12AX7 are decent tubes but for more detail I'd suggest a Bugle Boy or Telefunken. I've spent thousands on tubes I shouldn't have. My biggest waste of money has been the Taiwan and new issue stuff. They're ok but you lose a lot of music with them.
Harry

[Early B.]

ED --

Stock tubes always suck, regardless of the manufacturer. Rip 'em out as quickly as possible. Likewise, EH power tubes suck. Forget about 'em. Harsh, SS sounding. Treat yourself to some Tungsols or Shuguangs. There are a ton of options for the 12AX7's. Someone else can chime in on the 6SN7's. I'll bet that once you change out the tubes, the amp will sound significantly better.

[Ern Dog]

Thanks for the tips guys.

Ouch! A quick peek at the Tube Depot showed the (2) Telefunken 12AX7's to be $300 and the KT88 Tungsol would be $140 for quad! I think it would be a better option for me to test drive some of these tubes in the used market first and then bite the bullet for some new ones that I like the best.

[schwarcw]

You can find Telefunken 12AX7's all day on eBay and Audiogon for $30 - 40 each. Sometime less. Try some RCA 12AX7's from the '60's they are might fine. Tube depot is over priced, expecially if you are looking for 12AX7's, these are available from many sources. A few people on this Forum may sell you a couple.

[ND13]

Get some GE, RCA or Raytheon Blackplates. IMO,they soinded the best of al the 12AX7s I've tried.

[pearsall001]

I sounds like you're experiencing an overload of that warm mushy sound that you get from tubes. You need to tone it down a bit with a good SS source player. I never understood the design purpose of a tubed CD player, it just doesn't make sense. Now you're hearing the best from both worlds, clean accurate sound with a bit of added warmth.

[danz1906]

Do some more tweaks until you get that Happy-Medium,you will know when
you get that sound that puts a big grin on your face.:D

[nikolas812]

I personal don't think you can ever have too many tubes. That said. Everything is about system synergy. Tubes make a big difference. As does speaker cables and IC's. Silver might be a good direction to look to now if you haven't already.

Also. Everybody's taste is different. Maybe an all tube system isn't for you. Only time and some tweaking will tell....



Good luck and conngrats!





Nick

[Early B.]

I sounds like you're experiencing an overload of that warm mushy sound that you get from tubes. You need to tone it down a bit with a good SS source player. I never understood the design purpose of a tubed CD player, it just doesn't make sense. Now you're hearing the best from both worlds, clean accurate sound with a bit of added warmth.

There's nothing inherently wrong with an all tube system. Buy what sounds best, right? And to many people, tubes sound better. My tubed CDP replaced a SS CDP for that reason. Likewise for my amps.

If less warmth is preferred, a simple tube change will yield the desired results. Can't do that with SS.

[Zero]

Eh, Rogue's circuit has a sound thats naturally over-saturated. Will tube rolling help? Yeah. But at the end of the day, you're stuck with the amps over-all native sound.

[pearsall001]

Tube lovers are drawn into the music by the semi-accurate, distorted sound that tubes produce (some might call that tube bloom & warmth). SS lovers are drawn into the music by the accurate, precise presentation along with the slam that SS provides (some might call that dry & analytical). Now on the other hand, Hybrid lovers are drawn into the music by a combination of both.

It really doesn't matter how you get there...just as long as you enjoy it!!! ;)

[danz1906]

Tube lovers are drawn into the music by the semi-accurate, distorted sound that tubes produce (some might call that tube bloom & warmth). SS lovers are drawn into the music by the accurate, precise presentation along with the slam that SS provides (some might call that dry & analytical). Now on the other hand, Hybrid lovers are drawn into the music by a combination of both.

It really doesn't matter how you get there...just as long as you enjoy it!!! ;)

Great point,too much of a good thing is not Good,mix it up a little.

[Early B.]

Tube lovers are drawn into the music by the semi-accurate, distorted sound that tubes produce (some might call that tube bloom & warmth). SS lovers are drawn into the music by the accurate, precise presentation along with the slam that SS provides (some might call that dry & analytical). Now on the other hand, Hybrid lovers are drawn into the music by a combination of both.

What you've described is the popular notion of tubes vs. SS, but it ain't necessarily true.

Once again, a good component has a sound that is pleasing to your ear, regardless of whether it is tube or SS, and this is also independent of the mix of tube vs. SS gear. All things being equal, a mix of SS and tube gear isn't any "better" than a completely SS or all tube setup. To arrive at this conclusion requires switching out a lot of gear over time.

[Early B.]

Eh, Rogue's circuit has a sound thats naturally over-saturated. Will tube rolling help? Yeah. But at the end of the day, you're stuck with the amps over-all native sound.

How would you describe the term, "naturally over-saturated?"

[Zero]

Early B,

I used the word 'naturally' when I shouldn't have. My bad.

*warning, the following opinion is subjective, is my own, and will not be in favor of those using Rogue components*

Personally, I find Rogue gear to sound rather un-spectacular. Though their stuff is built well (and assembled int he United States if I remember correctly), I feel that their components almost always sounds just like typical affordable consumer tube gear. Over done mid-range and upper bass. Forced / rough sounding treble, and only moderate sound-staging abilities. The sound is usually thick and saturated, which at first - may be pleasant to the ear. Over time though, it can become tiresome and annoying, especially when you realize that all of your music is being reproduced with the same 'voice'.

[treitz3]

Hmmm, duly noted.

[GV#27]

I find Rogue gear to sound rather un-spectacular.... Though their stuff is built well (and assembled int he United States if I remember correctly), I feel that their components almost always sounds just like typical affordable consumer tube gear. Over done mid-range and upper bass. Forced / rough sounding treble, and only moderate sound-staging abilities. The sound is usually thick and saturated, which at first - may be pleasant to the ear. Over time though, it can become tiresome and annoying, especially when you realize that all of your music is being reproduced with the same 'voice'.So it sounds alot like an unmodded Dyna ST70?

[Early B.]

Early B,

I used the word 'naturally' when I shouldn't have. My bad.

*warning, the following opinion is subjective, is my own, and will not be in favor of those using Rogue components*

Personally, I find Rogue gear to sound rather un-spectacular. Though their stuff is built well (and assembled int he United States if I remember correctly), I feel that their components almost always sounds just like typical affordable consumer tube gear. Over done mid-range and upper bass. Forced / rough sounding treble, and only moderate sound-staging abilities. The sound is usually thick and saturated, which at first - may be pleasant to the ear. Over time though, it can become tiresome and annoying, especially when you realize that all of your music is being reproduced with the same 'voice'.

OK. Thanks for clarifying. All I can tell you is that, even in stock form, my Rogue monos beat the hell out of the Marsh amp that you recommended, and I still think Marsh makes great amps. With the monos, there was a night and day improvement in sound over the Marsh A400 throughout the entire spectrum, including the bass. And at the time, I wasn't expecting the Rogue amps to walk all over the Marsh because I felt the Marsh was as good as it gets (within my budget).

The stock power tubes for Rogue is EH, and I have been very vocal on this forum about the crappiness of sound from EH power tubes. So if you were listening to stock Rogue gear, I can certainly understand your perspective. And I agree with you about the excellent build quality of Rogue gear.

One thing I do with virtually everything piece of gear I get is modify it. Like I mentioned in another post recently, stock tubes make any amp, regardless of price or manufacturer, sound less than stellar. The first thing I do is rip out the stock tubes. In my experience, the replacements are always better, sometimes considerably better. In addition, Ben tricked out my monos with Mundorf Supreme caps and Mills resistors. And not only can I shape the sound with various tubes, I can also switch between triode and ultralinear modes. Hell, changing between the 4 ohm and 8 ohm taps gives me another choice. So I have plenty of options, and that's a main reason I prefer tube gear.

[Zero]

Early,

You can pick up a Marsh A200S for $400 - $500 in good condition on the used market. Those Rogue mono's typically go for between $1200-1500. Yeah, of course they are going to sound better. They damn well should. Anyways, I've tried Rogue's in various configs and with aftermarket tubes. Their stuff never did anything for me. The same goes for Jolida, Antique Sound Labs, Prima Luna, etc. It's not that they make bad gear, its just not to my liking. If I want tube, I'll go with Balanced Audio Technology, Audio Research, Lamm Industries, Conrad Johnson Premier, Leben, Viva, etc..

As for modifications. Have fun with that. I'll say this much...you don't need premium parts to make a good sounding component. Short of tube rolling, I'd rather enjoy something based off the merits of its design.

At the end of the day, if we all liked the same shit - we'd all be married and life would be boring. Enjoy your Rogue gear.

[Early B.]

As for modifications. Have fun with that. I'll say this much...you don't need premium parts to make a good sounding component. Short of tube rolling, I'd rather enjoy something based off the merits of its design.

Well, the audio world is filled with meritorious designs, but you also need premium parts to make great sounding equipment. Just like any other commodity, higher quality audio parts is usually what separates the great stuff from the less than great stuff.



At the end of the day, if we all liked the same shit - we'd all be married and life would be boring.

You're right. I heard some Audio Research tube gear and thought it sounded as lifeless as a lonely turd floating in the toilet.:eek:

[Ern Dog]

When I first joined this forum in 2006, I didn't even know what tubes were! My rig sounded sterile with lots of digital glare and now I'm way on the other side of the spectrum. I'm glad to be having this experience.

Interestingly, I live in the the Rogue Valley in Southern Oregon and belong to an audio club called Rogue Audio Club or RAC for short. Now I've got a Rogue amp! I talked to one of the club members and he had lots of tubes for me to borrow. I rolled in some Amperex Bugle Boys and noticed an immediate improvement.... lot more detail. I've got some Mullards, GE and RCA's on deck to roll. This is gonna be fun :D

[Early B.]

I talked to one of the club members and he had lots of tubes for me to borrow. I rolled in some Amperex Bugle Boys and noticed an immediate improvement.... lot more detail. I've got some Mullards, GE and RCA's on deck to roll. This is gonna be fun :D

Very nice!!!

Hmmm... I wonder if rolling MOSFETs in a SS amp will yield similar improvements.:D

[treitz3]

You can never have too much tube love. I'm all tube right now and lovin' it.

[F1nut]

Tube lovers are drawn into the music by the semi-accurate, distorted sound that tubes produce (some might call that tube bloom & warmth). SS lovers are drawn into the music by the accurate, precise presentation along with the slam that SS provides (some might call that dry & analytical). Now on the other hand, Hybrid lovers are drawn into the music by a combination of both.

It really doesn't matter how you get there...just as long as you enjoy it!!! ;)

I've heard tube gear that sounds more SS than some SS gear and I've heard some SS gear that sounds like mud. Too many variables to draw lines.


Erine, get rid of the EH power tubes. For the 12AX7's I still recommend the Ei's.

[Zero]

Early B - There's far more to it than swapping out cheap parts for exotic parts. That's the whole problem with the modification aftermarket - few understand this.

Erndog - It's great a Polkie is offering ya to try out such a wide variety of tubes. I suspect you'll dig the RCA / Rogue combo. Have fun!

[HB27]

When I first joined this forum in 2006, I didn't even know what tubes were! My rig sounded sterile with lots of digital glare and now I'm way on the other side of the spectrum. I'm glad to be having this experience.

Interestingly, I live in the the Rogue Valley in Southern Oregon and belong to an audio club called Rogue Audio Club or RAC for short. Now I've got a Rogue amp! I talked to one of the club members and he had lots of tubes for me to borrow. I rolled in some Amperex Bugle Boys and noticed an immediate improvement.... lot more detail. I've got some Mullards, GE and RCA's on deck to roll. This is gonna be fun :D
It is fun but can be frustrating at times. You'll learn all the characteristics of all the brands at the same time trying to find the perfect match of all your gear. I had the perfect tube set up and changed CDP's and had to start all over until I put all the pieces of the puzzle back in place.
My fav 12AX7 is the old Telefunken ribbed plate. But I run mostly large horn speakers and only rolling them into your system will tell you what you want to hear.
Congrats again,
Harry

[Early B.]

Early B - There's far more to it than swapping out cheap parts for exotic parts. That's the whole problem with the modification aftermarket - few understand this.

I hear ya. However, I can only offer my personal experiences with mods, and swapping out key parts has yielded great results for me every time I've done it. That's why I keep doing it. No, you're not gonna turn a Hyundai into a Ferrari with a few mods, but for the price of a decent pair of interconnects, you can make some significant improvements.

For me, the most important thing about modding components is it prevents me from upgrading every few months. ;) Like I said 6 months ago, I'm done. Are you hearing me, George?

[Zero]

6 months ago? Sheat, you've been saying that for years. Ya damned addict.


:D

[ND13]

I tried several NOS and new production ax7s in my ex MLP. Mullards, Amperex, Telefunken Smooth plates, EH, Ei ans Sovtek LPS and for some reason the Blackplates were, by far, my faves. Of the NOS tubes they were also the least expensive to buy in grid and output matched quads, by several hundred dollars in some cases(ie Tele and Mullard) At that time, I had tubes in the source, pre and amp. It took a while to get the synergy with the tubes to get where I wanted it and it was sweet. I'll like stick with my modded AMC CD8b for a long time, but once I get back on my feet, tube pre and amp are coming back and with a vengeance. The MF A3cr is as tubey sounding as I've had in my rig for a sand pre, but it's just not quite there, but still an outstanding pre.

[Early B.]

6 months ago? Sheat, you've been saying that for years. Ya damned addict.

Nope, not me. Not anymore. I have achieved the proverbial audio nirvana and not even the incessant cajoling from my fellow Polkies will move me from my mountaintop.

Go in peace, my son.

[Ern Dog]

Nope, not me. Not anymore. I have achieved the proverbial audio nirvana and not even the incessant cajoling from my fellow Polkies will move me from my mountaintop.

Go in peace, my son.


Hey Mountaintop man-
What tubes you got in your Rogue Monoblocks?

[pearsall001]

Nope, not me. Not anymore. I have achieved the proverbial audio nirvana and not even the incessant cajoling from my fellow Polkies will move me from my mountaintop.

Go in peace, my son.

I'll bet you believe in the tooth fairy too!!! :D:D;)

[Early B.]

Hey Mountaintop man-
What tubes you got in your Rogue Monoblocks?

Tungsol power tubes, Groove Tube 12AX7M, and EH12AU7's.

[reeltrouble1]

I have some tube gear.

RT1

[Ern Dog]

Well I've got this Rogue amp almost dialed in. It sounds TOTALLY different now. The RCA 12AX7's had the best synergistic match in my rig. No more mushy edges, gooey mids, and loose/bloated bass. Everything has totally tightened up and it has Awesome detail now. Actually, maybe a smidgen too bright now! :p I've got some Tung-sol 6550 on the way and I'm thinking that will tone down the top end some. Polarity sounded best when it was non-inverted. Inverting the polarity made the midbass sounded recessed and distant. Also Ultralinear mode had way more umph than Triode mode.

I feel like a pig in mud :D

[organ]

Congrats on your tube amp.
What sensitivity are your main speakers? I get the exact thing you described when the speaks aren't sensitive enough. You may be pushing the tube amp hard. Try them on your other speakers and see what happens. That 'softness' usually happens with speakers that have a dip down to 4 ohms or below, even if they are 91db/8ohms nominal.
Also, you might want to try the 4ohms output taps.
Play around with your triode setting. It should sound nicer at normal levels and softer music. Go ultralinear when you want to rock out.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[wizzy]

Maybe you need some tubed spearker cables :)

[Ern Dog]

Congrats on your tube amp.
What sensitivity are your main speakers? I get the exact thing you described when the speaks aren't sensitive enough. You may be pushing the tube amp hard. Try them on your other speakers and see what happens. That 'softness' usually happens with speakers that have a dip down to 4 ohms or below, even if they are 91db/8ohms nominal.
Also, you might want to try the 4ohms output taps.
Play around with your triode setting. It should sound nicer at normal levels and softer music. Go ultralinear when you want to rock out.

Good luck and keep us posted.


I've read conflicting information about the sensitivity, but I think they are 94 db 4ohms.

Hey do you still have all your Audio zone gear? Just asking because it's not in your signature anymore. Did you move onto something else?