I Think it is time to upgrade my Pre, Need some help with your thoughts....

[Lasareath]

Hey Guys,

I was thinking about trying out the Adcom GFP-750 but then I realized if I do that then I will need a DAC as well for my optical output from my Denon 3910

So I was thinking that maybe I should just get the new Benchmark Dac 1 HDR.

The Benchmark will act as my Pre and my DAC all in one tiny unit.

What do you guys think?

I have never heard either one.

Or should I get the Adcom GFP-750 and buy an older DAC1 ?

Please give me your thoughts.

Thanks,

Sal

[venomclan]

I just went that route with the regular DAC1. I like the fact tat the new BM has a remote, but it is pricey at $1900. You may get the best of both worlds by getting a DAC1 and adding a passive with remote like a Placette or even a Channel Islands for much cheaper. That is what I intend to do down the road.
Venom

[heiney9]

Sal, the 750 is an outstanding player and it has the capability to be used as DAC for another piece..............like your Denon. It has the same dac section as the stand alone GDA 700 dac w/HDCD processing.

I think it would be a good choice and you'd have to spend a whole lot more to get better performance from a stand alone dac probably in the $2K range.

I say go for it!!!! Only issue with that player is the LCD display is a little hard to read from across the room ;)

I have a copy of the owners manual if you need one, I can scan it and send it to you as I see the Adcom site doesn't have one there for DL.

With this player you DON'T need another dac for your Denon........use the GCD750's digial input to run the Denon thru.

H9

[steveinaz]

The Placette/benchmark combo is excellent, and really lets you appreciate the level that the DAC1 operates at. The DAC1 on it's own as a pre will give you slightly more dynamics and punch.

[Lasareath]

H9, I'm all confused, I didn't mention anything about the GCD-750. I like my Denon 3910, I'm not ready to upgrade it since it does SACD as well.

Steve, I can't afford a Placette.

I was tring to spend no more than $2000 total.

I thought a lot of people liked the Adcom GFP-750 around here?

I like the concept of the DAC 1 HDR, the only thing I don't like about it is that it only has 1 unbalanced input :(

How can they even consider it a Pre with only one non-digital input?

They need to make it longer and put in two or three analog inputs.

[steveinaz]

Now I'm confused, I thought you were looking for alternatives to the GFP...my bad.

[VR3]

Ill throw in my cliche recs ---

Odyssey Candela or Tempest

[heiney9]

Oooopppss. my bad I thought you were talking about the GCD-750 cd player.

The Adcom GFp-750 is a superb, I mean superb pre-amp.

Designed by Nelson Pass it's essentially an Alpeh P with a few lesser parts. I have been absolutely enthralled with this pre-amp especially in passive mode.

It's dead neutral and the depth and center image are fantastic. It's built like a tank and the remote is nice too. They use relays for switching and a motor driven vol pot, neither of these options are cheap and are the correct way to do it. Also has balanced ins and outs.

You can't touch this kind of performance for less than about $3K new and probably about $1500 used.

[steveinaz]

^^Agree 100%. GFP-750 is stellar.

[BlueFox]

I like the concept of the DAC 1 HDR, the only thing I don't like about it is that it only has 1 unbalanced input

I used a Dac1 Pre as a pre-amp for a few months and had no musical issues with it. Sounded great. However, there were two non-muscial issues that resulted in my going to another pre-amp.

First, at that time, the Dac1 Pre did not have remote control. A remote is one of those things that once you use it, it is hard to give up. Without a remote I would be getting up/sitting down trying to get the volume right. Benchmark has come out with a version of the Dac1 Pre with a remote, but, to be honest, I am not sure if it is worth $2000.

Second, as you mentioned, the Dac1 Pre only has one set of non-XLR analog inputs, and I needed XLR inputs for an SACD player I was buying.

I ended up buying the Cambridge-Audio 840E pre-amp since it had two sets of XLR inputs (1 for the Dac1 and 1 for the SACD player), and I was already using the CA 840W amp so the two units go together.

I could hear no differance in sound quality between having the Dac1 go straight to the amp, or through the pre-amp. Both ways sound superb.

[Freak When C]

Has anyone tried the Parasound New Classic 2100 preamp? It's got some decent reviews and has a HT bypass. Just thought I'd throw it out there. I'm new to Polk Forum by the way, so go easy on me if this suggestion isn't one you'd consider.

[hearingimpared]

Welcome to Club Polk Freak When C!

[Freak When C]

Thanks for the warm welcome. Been lurking for a few weeks and decided to join the fun. :)

[F1nut]

One word, tubes.

[Lasareath]

One word, tubes.

More words please.

For $2000 Pre with tubes and Dac, what would you buy?

[george daniel]

One word, tubes.


Nuff said :cool:

Pm'd

[heiney9]

More words please.

For $2000 Pre with tubes and Dac, what would you buy?

Monarchy NM24, but roll some different tubes into it right away. I didn't care for the stock tubes in it.

http://www.monarchyaudio.com/

Call and talk with them as the list price vs. what you can actually negotiate is a big difference. Also they occasionally show up on Audiogon. I believe there is one on there now.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1243986502&/Monarchy-Audio-NM24-tube/solid

Thia one is straight from Monarchy and the other one sold ASAP at an incredible low price of $700

Good luck Sal

H9

[Lasareath]

Monarchy NM24, but roll some different tubes into it right away. I didn't care for the stock tubes in it.

http://www.monarchyaudio.com/

Call and talk with them as the list price vs. what you can actually negotiate is a big difference. Also they occasionally show up on Audiogon. I believe there is one on there now.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1243986502&/Monarchy-Audio-NM24-tube/solid

Thia one is straight from Monarchy and the other one sold ASAP at an incredible low price of $700

Good luck Sal

H9


H9,

Is that a DAC & Pre all in one all just a DAC ?

Thanks,

Sal

[ben62670]

Sal.
Custom light speed attenuator;)

[heiney9]

H9,

Is that a DAC & Pre all in one all just a DAC ?

Thanks,

Sal

Both and it can do SS dac output as well tube dac output. It's a very nice unit. Very, very well built.

[Lasareath]

Both and it can do SS dac output as well tube dac output. It's a very nice unit. Very, very well built.


So you're recommending it above the The Adcom GFP-750 ?

Because I've seen the way you talk about the GFP-750 and that was the reason I was leaning towards it.

[reeltrouble1]

why do you want to use the optical out on the 3910, that unit has a great DAC on its own, you can use the analog out? If you really need a DAC then the Benchmark or the PS Audio into a tubed pre, BAT, ARC, Manley, Joule, Dodd.

Have fun Sal, but if your going to upgrade go big, a couple levels.

RT1

[ben62670]

DK loves the 750 also. I have never heard anything bad about it. That DAC pre H9 listed sure is pretty and the tube/SS option is sweet. I wish I had more coin to build a tube/SS/passive pre:(

[Barefoot]

My uncle used to own a 750 and unlike most Adcom gear it really blew me away. Not that Adcom is sub-par, it's not. Just quality gear at a reasonable price. Nothing special. But the 750 is.

[Lasareath]

why do you want to use the optical out on the 3910, that unit has a great DAC on its own, you can use the analog out? If you really need a DAC then the Benchmark or the PS Audio into a tubed pre, BAT, ARC, Manley, Joule, Dodd.

Have fun Sal, but if your going to upgrade go big, a couple levels.


RT1

I don't know Ted, I have an optical cable hooked up to my 3910 for all my CD's and analog silver wires from Ben for my SACD's

I've tried plaing CD's through the analog connections and it don't work. How do I make it work?

Also, I have an Onkyo Home Theater Receiver I bought in 2004 for $750, I would think that almost anything that's made for strictly 2 channel would be an upgrade from the Onkyo ?







DK loves the 750 also. I have never heard anything bad about it. That DAC pre H9 listed sure is pretty and the tube/SS option is sweet. I wish I had more coin to build a tube/SS/passive pre:(



How much money do you need to make it ?

Wanna make me #0001 ?

[reeltrouble1]

Sal,

Sound like a menu issue with your 3910, the CD is defaulting to the digital out, go in the menu and see if you can select analog, I use my 2900 Denon this way, into a MF tube buffer into by BAT pre, sounds good, HI does the same thing with his into that beloved Spectral of his.

Yes you are right a pre built for music is going to smoke the Oinker, hell, I should know, I have an Onk 787 still running my theater, its fine for that but when I used it for music I had to put a very expensive DAC in the mix just to make it bearable.

RT1

[ben62670]

I'll call ya. I am going to be building one for myself and Jerry. Google the light Speed attenuator. Most of the parts are fairly inexpensive. The thing that separates the LSA is that it uses no pots, or switches to attenuate the sound. It uses a photo coupled led to very resistance. The more voltage applied to the led the less resistance there is. It is a wonderful thing. If the 3910's analog section is anything like the 2900, or 2910 I would recommend getting a DAC. Great transport, but the analog suffers. BTW the LSA used to sell for around 10k;) The LSA in original for is passive, but a gain stage(which could be selective) can easily be implemented.

[heiney9]

So you're recommending it above the The Adcom GFP-750 ?

Because I've seen the way you talk about the GFP-750 and that was the reason I was leaning towards it.

No, I still think the 750 is the better pre-amp. The Monarchy gives you tubes (if that's your thing) a tube rpe amp and a tube and solid state dac all in one package.

The 750 is one of those special pieces. It's about as simple, straight forward and uncolored as one can get. That's what I'm looking for and it simply sounds fantastic. Lets the music flow just like it was recorded. The Monarchy while being a great piece and flexible just isn't quite there.

All in my opinion.

H9

[ben62670]

No, I still think the 750 is the better pre-amp. The Monarchy gives you tubes (if that's your thing) and a dac all in one package.

The 750 is one of those special pieces. It's about as simple, straight forward and uncolored as one can get. That's what I'm looking for and it simply sounds fantastic. Lets the music flow just like it was recorded. The Monarchy while being a great piece and flexible just isn't quite there.

All in my opinion.

H9

I did the tube thing a few times, but a solid DAC and PRE is what really floats my boat. The 750 does passive and gain with a flip of the switch. I did active with good components, but after doing my custom DAC I went passive. Best setup yet. A good tube buffer would be nice to have for some types of music.

[heiney9]

My uncle used to own a 750 and unlike most Adcom gear it really blew me away. Not that Adcom is sub-par, it's not. Just quality gear at a reasonable price. Nothing special. But the 750 is.

Sort of my sentiments. I've owned a lot of Adcom gear and the last series they made called the Gold Series by some (because of the gold switch plate and toggle switches) were hardcore audiophile designed pieces. The other Adcom stuff has always performed well within it's price point the 750 performs well beyond it's price point.

Nelson Pass had a heavy hand in the design of the GFA 5802 amp and like I stated earlier the GFP750 is essentially the much praised Pass Labs Aleph P pre-amp with a few lesser parts to keep it economical.

You read all the reviews and until you own one you don;t know how special sounding it is. I couldn't afford a used Aleph P as they are usually around $2500 used for the remote version so I opted for the 750 and I am thrilled with it.

H9

[heiney9]

This pretty much sums it up as far as how simple the design is. And simple IS better.

The GFP-750 is a Nelson Pass design—essentially a variation on the Pass Labs Aleph P and Pass's DIY project, The Son of the Bride of Zen (footnote 2). The circuit couldn't be simpler. Says Pass, "It's a differential pair—the end. A single gain stage, balanced input, balanced output, no feedback....We took a pair of MOSFETs, and the inputs go to the gates of the MOSFETs. The MOSFET sources are tied together and biased with a current source, with the signal taken off the drains. [The circuit] can run unbalanced on either side, although the performance is best when it's run balanced."

Other than glue logic and the transistors used to drive the relays, the 12 active devices—four gain blocks, each with three devices—are HEXFETs from International Rectifier. The output stage is intended to function as a pure voltage source, making the GFP-750 relatively immune to cable differences or low amplifier impedances. As we've come to expect from Adcom, the preamp sports a honkin' big toroidal transformer, with multiple secondary windings for each channel. A large heatsink on the left-hand side carries the power supply regulator chips.

Both signal and control circuitry is carried on one large double-sided printed circuit board, though these are physically separated. The parts quality is superb throughout, and care has been taken to keep signal paths as short as possible. The input switching relays, for example, are all adjacent to the rear-panel sockets. Did somebody mention the proverbial brick outhouse?

In passive mode, the signal sees only input switching and the attenuator.



For the lazy :D Here's a review (one of several)

http://www.stereophile.com/solidpreamps/133/

H9

[reeltrouble1]

the 3910 has an exemplary DAC for redbook upgraded from the 2900, the 2900 is great for sacd buy needs a bit of help for redbook, then there are several mods that can be done to either machine to bring them up to class A level. the 2910 and such models are not in the same league as the 2900 or 3910 and were lower end products from Denon.

The BAT and such gear will smoke the Adcom, but then they should.

RT1

[hearingimpared]

Sal,

HI does the same thing with his into that beloved Spectral of his.



RT1

Correction Big Brother. I run the 2900 through an MF tube buffer then directly into the Tri Vista using all MIT Shotgun S3s of course. The 2900 is used for SACD only.

[heiney9]

The BAT and such gear will smoke the Adcom, but then they should.

RT1

You'd be surprised just how good the 750 is. I don't doubt the BAT is a little better but the cost difference IMO, isn't always worth the performance difference.

$700 used vs. $2000+ used and not very much difference. Of course system synergy always plays a part. I have Blake's VK40 sitting here and while I have listened to it for short periods (no direct comparo to the 750) and it is a stellar pre-amp no doubt about that.

The VK40 sounds very similar. May do some more comparing this weekend as Blakes system won't be up and running until next weekend so I should still have it here.

Either one would be a great choice, but just because the 750 has Adcom's name printed on it don't be so quick to dimiss it until you've spent some quality time with it. :)

YMMV

H9

P.s. I agree the BAT is better but it in no way smokes the Adcom.

[reeltrouble1]

I did not expect you to agree, its cool, of course I would recommend to Blake the SE tubed BAT pre-models as he moves up the chain. As I am a Sharpener differentiating small differences as important my smoking is different than others, of course, so is the special jacket I wear and pipe I use during critical listening.

Like Doug, we were the only two to wear our special listening jackets to Matt's house, while the rest did their imitation of Joe Shit the Rag Man. I thought better of the pipe though..........

RT1

[ben62670]

I have the 2900 and it is not up to snuff stock. I knew this when I was hooked up with it, but I also planned some mods.
Most Adcom stuff is the gateway drug to HiFi, and they do have a few nuggets of gold. I am sorry they didn't raise the price to please some folks;) It certainly would sound better if they changed the name and tripled the price.


I did not expect you to agree, its cool, of course I would recommend to Blake the SE tubed BAT pre-models as he moves up the chain. As I am a Sharpener differentiating small differences as important my smoking is different than others, of course, so is the special jacket I wear and pipe I use during critical listening.

Like Doug, we were the only two to wear our special listening jackets to Matt's house, while the rest did their imitation of Joe Shit the Rag Man. I thought better of the pipe though..........

RT1
LOL That is funny stuff there:)

[reeltrouble1]

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1245256320

here you go Sal. Go Large or Go Home. This one will last you quite a while and send HI screaming into the night to boot.

Kissa my Adcom..........:D

hehehehehehe

RT1

[heiney9]

I did not expect you to agree, its cool, of course I would recommend to Blake the SE tubed BAT pre-models as he moves up the chain. As I am a Sharpener differentiating small differences as important my smoking is different than others, of course, so is the special jacket I wear and pipe I use during critical listening.

Like Doug, we were the only two to wear our special listening jackets to Matt's house, while the rest did their imitation of Joe Shit the Rag Man. I thought better of the pipe though..........

RT1

Ted, I know exactly where you are coming from. And yes to a certain degree I do disagree especially based on what Sal has now and where he *seems* to want to go at this particular point in time.

If he has the coin to purchase the much more expensive BAT, I say go for it. I was trying to balance the idea that the extra money 3X will not give you 3X the performance in this particular instance.

Still not convinced the BAT will smoke the Adcom........but then we have differing views about what smokes means :).

I so wish Ju Ju, Seafart, C3P0, Xcapri and the other dismal trolls could see that this is the kind of back and forth one should engage in. Discussing audio and experiences can be done in a respectful meaningful way like you and I do all the time. We may not always see eye to eye and have different experiences but we CAN ALWAYS meet in the middle with mutual respect.

It's a pleasure

H9

[reeltrouble1]

screw BAT, I found a nice MF for Sal, he can just charge some sap extra dough on one of his "jobs", he can afford it, he can eat less, hell, he could not eat for a while and be just fine, I mean audio gear trumps eating.

you are right, about the 3X, but the magic is in the last 5%.

who said that, I said that and,

I am RT1.

[GV#27]

The 750 is one of those special pieces. It's about as simple, straight forward and uncolored as one can get. That's what I'm looking for and it simply sounds fantastic. Lets the music flow just like it was recorded.

My experience with the 750's DIY forbearer the BOZ,would lead me to think that it would sound as you describe.

[hearingimpared]

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1245256320

here you go Sal. Go Large or Go Home. This one will last you quite a while and send HI screaming into the night to boot.

Kissa my Adcom..........:D

hehehehehehe

RT1

Go for it Sal . . . you won't regret it. However the seller is asking a very high price for the unit. I've seen them as low as $3K on Audiogon.

[reeltrouble1]

I think Sal may have made the awful mistake of asking for approval instead of forgiveness and is moving his things to Fido's house as he has disappered, or maybe on the bright side he has taken to the road to pick up his new pre he purchased today, lets face it, no matter what the Oinker has to go.

RT1--Friends dont let Friends listen to junk.

[Lasareath]

I just put on Garbage Version 2.0 at like 85% Volume and it sounds pretty damn good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uDiGAr_WKs

[Face]

Sal, you would probably like BAT's house sound.

[reeltrouble1]

god can you imagine the Bjork??

If you go BAT pop for the SE models, the bat paks are just over the top and I enjoy the supertube 6h30.

RT1

[heiney9]

Can any BAT pre be run in passive mode? That's where I particularly enjoy the 750 on most material. Although I admit there is only a slight difference between passive and active; enough to notice at times however. Really depends on the music and recording. Garbage; while I like them; don't have really good clean recordings.......mostly grungy synthesized over the top prodcution by Butch Vig who happens to be Shirley's husband, IIRC.

When you get an excellent dedicated 2 ch pre-amp of any flavor like the MF, BAT or Adcom, etc. you'll find these recordings severly lacking when you hear them in their natural state. That's the price of admission moving up the food chain. You'll be discarding at rate of 2 to 1. For every 2 recordings you no longer find appealing you'll find one you like.

The glow of tubes is intoxicating..............but SE class A of the SS variety rules! :D

H9

[reeltrouble1]

everyone should know H9 did in fact go over the falls in a barrel and hit is head on a rock on the way down, twice actually. Fortunately it was limestone and he survived, however, the damage is not repairable.

Tubes Rule.

RT1

[cnh]

This has been a rather fascinating and interesting discussion...I'm keeping my eye on an Adcom 750 pre...worth waiting for.

Can't afford much more than that and it sounds like a spectacular 'bang' for your buck.

Thanks to everyone above...what did you decide, Sal?

cnh

[reeltrouble1]

The whole active/passive pre thing can be a great debate, like most things each has benefits, however, overall active trumps passive.

RT1

[heiney9]

The whole active/passive pre thing can be a great debate, like most things each has benefits, however, overall active trumps passive.

RT1

No, I don't think so............but I will concede if I had to choose just ONE I'd go active based on the type of music I listen to. The active/passive feature of the 750 is among one of it's best features and it's incredibly nice to have the option to choose.

I suspect though I am splitting hairs in not fully agreeing with you RT1. Superbly recorded simple music (meaning very little heavy handed processing) like jazz, vocals, acoustic, trio's, real instruments, strong vocalists, etc.....sound better, more realistic, more intimate in passive mode, IMO. Conversely, I like most of the Beatles stereo catalog in passive mode; in active mode the effects used in the studio are a bit over the top in some instances.........especially on the SDA's for my liking. Again subtle but noticable differences.

As always YMMV.

H9

[reeltrouble1]

I think a passive pre is something everyone should explore during their own little journey into the rabbit hole.

RT1

[Face]

The whole active/passive pre thing can be a great debate, like most things each has benefits

RT1I'll agree with that much. ;)

There are too many variables to get into, but passive is the most transparent and distortion free. In some rigs it can sound thin, in others it can sound as full as any active setup. It depends on source, speakers, room, and everything else in the chain.

I run passive in my combo 2 channel/HT rig. The sound is full and I have no problem attaining high SPL's. But in my other rig(with my custom speakers or SDA's), passives sounded thin and cannot attain a decent listening level.

In other words, there is no "best".

[heiney9]

Here you go Sal, good price on what appears to be a nice unit.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1246454548&/Adcom-GFP-750-Stereophile-Clas

No affiliation

H9

[Lasareath]

Here you go Sal, good price on what appears to be a nice unit.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1246454548&/Adcom-GFP-750-Stereophile-Clas

No affiliation

H9


Thanks H9!, that's a great find that one. I'm sure it will be gone very quickly.

I am buying the Adcom GFP-750 but Obama's $8500 gift is coming on May 13th, so I have to wait till then :(

I've heard if you are really lucky you can find one on ebay for $500

I'll start looking around the middle of the month.

Thanks,

Sal

[reeltrouble1]

It will not be your last pre.

RT1

[george daniel]

I did not know that adcom made tubed pre's.;)

[Stevenmbell]

You have to disconnect the optical for the analog to work. When using the optical output it disconnects the analog my 1940 CI is that way.

[heiney9]

You have to disconnect the optical for the analog to work. When using the optical output it disconnects the analog my 1940 CI is that way.

Have no idea WTF you are talking about and how it relates to this thread. Perhaps a posting error? If not, which post in this thread are you referring to?

[Face]

I don't know Ted, I have an optical cable hooked up to my 3910 for all my CD's and analog silver wires from Ben for my SACD's

I've tried plaing CD's through the analog connections and it don't work. How do I make it work?

You have to disconnect the optical for the analog to work. When using the optical output it disconnects the analog my 1940 CI is that way.


Have no idea WTF you are talking about and how it relates to this thread. Perhaps a posting error? If not, which post in this thread are you referring to?
It's ok Brock, it's late. :)

[heiney9]

LOL--thanks......perhaps it's time for beddy bye. :)

[bikerboy]

RT1 is right, tubes rule! Once you go glass, you can't go back.

[Lasareath]

You have to disconnect the optical for the analog to work. When using the optical output it disconnects the analog my 1940 CI is that way.


Thanks Steven, I tried exactly that this past weekend and it works, I am playing Redbook CD's through the analog connections.

The Denon must know some how that there is an Optical Cable plugged in.

The problem I had in the past is that I un-plugged the cable from the back of my receiver and the Denon must still think the Opitical cable is connected because no regular CD's would play.

Sal