Dog mauled while defending owners against mountain lion

[Danny Tse]

From here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090506/ap_on_re_us/us_mountain_lion_attack)

LAKE ELSINORE, Calif. – A mountain lion attacked and nearly killed a dog that defended its owners Tuesday on a trail in the Santa Ana Mountains.

The dog was severely mauled in the stomach area and rushed to a veterinary hospital for surgery, said Orange County sheriff's spokesman Jim Amormino. The 5-year-old shepherd mix named Hoagie underwent a four-hour operation and was expected to survive, he said.

William Morse told KABC-TV that he was hiking with his wife near a campground in the Cleveland National Forest, about 10 miles from Lake Elsinore, when a 120-pound mountain lion approached.

"Out of nowhere, a mountain lion just charged us, attacked us. And my dog saved our lives," Morse said.

He said the attack lasted less than 10 seconds and left the dog with deep wounds.

But, Amormino said, the dog put up a "vicious fight. I'm sure that lion was hurt, too."

Morse said he was traumatized by the attack and will never return to the campground where he and his wife have been hiking for years.

Sheriff's deputies and Forest Service officials have not located the mountain lion, which will be destroyed if located, officials said.

[dorokusai]

Why kill the mountain lion? That's the chance you take when you venture into nature. It's cool that the dog will survive....I'd have been all over the lion if he touched my dog....which would have been behind me of course.

[Face]

It's no mountain lion, but: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,284635,00.html

[Lord Vader]

Why kill the mountain lion? That's the chance you take when you venture into nature. It's cool that the dog will survive....I'd have been all over the lion if he touched my dog....which would have been behind me of course.
Having lived and hiked in these mountains, I can state with certainty this cat will attack people again, maybe even an unsuspecting child. It should be put down and quickly. Even if it could be safely trapped, it would still pose a danger.

[seeclear]

having lived and hiked in these mountains, i can state with certainty this cat will attack people again, maybe even an unsuspecting child. It should be put down and quickly. Even if it could be safely trapped, it would still pose a danger.

+1..

[Knucklehead]

capture it and put it in a zoo....it dosent deserve to die, it deserves to be behind bars for the rest of its life.

[Lasareath]

This is about the only thing that will attack me in my neighborhood.

My Wife took this photo yesterday on our front lawn

http://www.4u2me.com/Bunny-on-Lasareath-Lawn.jpg

[shadowofnight]

Why kill the mountain lion? That's the chance you take when you venture into nature. It's cool that the dog will survive....I'd have been all over the lion if he touched my dog....which would have been behind me of course.

Having lived and hiked in these mountains, I can state with certainty this cat will attack people again, maybe even an unsuspecting child. It should be put down and quickly. Even if it could be safely trapped, it would still pose a danger.

Both very very good points....if this happened close to known hiking trails, then I would say the cat posed a risk to the general population and would need to be removed ( Not neccesarily put down...but removed from the area ).

Then again, as Mark mentioned...how would you like it if all of your life you have been king shit of your piece of the forrest ( Well there is that big pesky furry thing that puts claw marks way up high on some of the trees in my territory...I just stay clear of him :) ) and into your domain walks up these 2 snack sized animals you had never seen before ? I mean not only are they tresspassing, but they are possible meal items.....it just surprises me when people are shocked and outraged when animals are really only doing what comes naturally ( The cat saw the dog as an easy meal ...and probably would have only attacked a human if injured or starving )

In Shady Cove Oregon, I came across the hugest mountain lion I had ever seen...no more then 100 or so yards away...on a friends 40 acres in the middle of nowhere. I had him in my sights and did not pull the trigger...believe me, he knew I was coming long before I ever saw him ( We humans basically suck when it comes to senses ) and he was just standing his ground on the ridge watching me. Actually my big ass was larger then most of the black bears in the area :) ....so for both of us it was a mutual " I better keep an eye on this fellow "

I could have killed him, there was no reason to...I am sure he associated the gunshots in the area to me and wasnt coming anywhere near me...besides there was so many deer in the area and that boy looked so healthy ...he forgot about me in seconds. I didnt see him again for the remainding 2 weeks either.

[shadowofnight]

This is about the only thing that will attack me in my neighborhood.

My Wife took this photo yesterday on our front lawn

http://www.4u2me.com/Bunny-on-Lasareath-Lawn.jpg

Cmon Sal, that area has to have racoons and possums too :p

When I used to lived in south san jose near the mountains I had a racoon going through my garbage cans in front of the house at midnight when going home for "Lunch" ( Middle of the night ) . He made it well known he would leave only when he was finished :D Again, I could have pushed the issue and gone inside and gotten the 25 caliber beeman air rifle....but he was just hungry and so was I ( On the clock too ) so I let him slide. He sure put on a hell of a show of aggression...I was actually pretty impressed how brave he was.

So watch out for those rabid bunnies in your area ;)

[janmike]

... I didnt see him again for the remainding 2 weeks either.

I bet he saw you. While extremely dangerous, Cougars and Polar Bears are 2 of the most majestic animals on the planet IMO.

[shadowofnight]

I bet he saw you. While extremely dangerous, Cougars and Polar Bears are 2 of the most majestic animals on the planet IMO.

Oh yeah, I am positive he did...and probably showed me his ass as I was leaving too :D

They sure are awesome...really any large carnivore facinates me, what made it so awesome too is that with all my years of hunting and being in the wild...that was the first and only mountain lion I had ever seen in the wild.

[ben62670]

Kill it. The thing attached a person in the day. There is a decent chance it could be infected with something. A 100# cat can easily take a child. Don't worry there is no shortage of big cats out there.

[anonymouse]

This is about the only thing that will attack me in my neighborhood.

My Wife took this photo yesterday on our front lawn

http://www.4u2me.com/Bunny-on-Lasareath-Lawn.jpg

Scott's Crabgrass Preventer followed in 8 weeks by Weed n Feed. A good mowing in order as well :)

[NJPOLKER]

This is about the only thing that will attack me in my neighborhood.

My Wife took this photo yesterday on our front lawn

http://www.4u2me.com/Bunny-on-Lasareath-Lawn.jpg

Hey Sal,
I'll take the rabbit vs you any day!

[Ricardo]

"Sheriff's deputies and Forest Service officials have not located the mountain lion, which will be destroyed if located, officials said.





http://andrearf.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/nuclear-bomb-explosion.jpg

[Knucklehead]

poor kitty got nuked!

[exalted512]

Kill it. The thing attached a person in the day. There is a decent chance it could be infected with something. A 100# cat can easily take a child. Don't worry there is no shortage of big cats out there.

A 100 pound can easily take about anything it wants to...
-Cody

[Lord Vader]

being a pround member of PETA(People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) I must state that killing this cat is the right thing to do. All this about sparing the cat is nice, but what about sparing people for a change?

[dorokusai]

The "people" could use some thinning out out if you ask me....sometimes you lose a good one but the percentages aren't bad.

[steveinaz]

Why kill the mountain lion? That's the chance you take when you venture into nature. It's cool that the dog will survive....I'd have been all over the lion if he touched my dog....which would have been behind me of course.

+10. That's the lions environment, you go in it, you run a risk.

[Lord Vader]

+10. That's the lions environment, you go in it, you run a risk.
I am at a loss as to explain... The value of HUMAN life is far more important than this cat's, yet you would rather people die instead? As far as 'environment' is concerned, this planet and every corner of every continent, from the tallest mountain to the bottom of the sea is the domain of mankind. To be sure, we must be responsible with it and care for it, but we must also PROTECT ourselves. Maybe Sigfried and Roy will take it in...

[steveinaz]

So shall we go out and kill all dangerous animals? Rid the oceans of sharks? Educate yourself before you hike; carry a firearm, bear spray, whatever--be prepared. I'm not saying you don't kill an animal actively attacking you, but why hunt one down after the fact? Kalifornia of all places---the tree-huggers mecca, or so they claim.

[bruss]

I think they should waterboard the cat first to see what he knows... Then kill it

[shawn474]

Why kill the mountain lion? They were hiking in the wilderness; it wasn't like it was a residential area. If it was, by all means, it poses a risk and should be taken care of. But when you go hiking, part of the intrigue is to see the wildlife in its natural environment. You don't want the risk? Go to a zoo. If that thing was infected with something, there is no way that that fight would have lasted only 10 seconds and the dog that was attacked probably would not have survived.

[TNRabbit]

I think they should waterboard the cat first to see what he knows... Then kill it


Priceless~

[Lord Vader]

So shall we go out and kill all dangerous animals? Rid the oceans of sharks? Educate yourself before you hike; carry a firearm, bear spray, whatever--be prepared. I'm not saying you don't kill an animal actively attacking you, but why hunt one down after the fact? Kalifornia of all places---the tree-huggers mecca, or so they claim.

First off... 99.99% of wildlife displays a certain fear of man, and rightly so. and 99% of the time this cat would have walked, or run the OTHER way. Not so in this case. This particular cat decided that people were a tasty meal, and once they attach people, they will do so again. It is the same reason a farmer will put down the family dog if it turns on his chickens. Once an animal becomes a danger to people, then people come first. A zoo would also be dangerous for a cat like this as it would turn on those feeding it and also pose a risk to other animals.

[shack]

So shall we go out and kill all dangerous animals? Rid the oceans of sharks? Educate yourself before you hike; carry a firearm, bear spray, whatever--be prepared. I'm not saying you don't kill an animal actively attacking you, but why hunt one down after the fact? Kalifornia of all places---the tree-huggers mecca, or so they claim.

Why kill the mountain lion? They were hiking in the wilderness; it wasn't like it was a residential area. If it was, by all means, it poses a risk and should be taken care of. But when you go hiking, part of the intrigue is to see the wildlife in its natural environment. You don't want the risk? Go to a zoo. If that thing was infected with something, there is no way that that fight would have lasted only 10 seconds and the dog that was attacked probably would not have survived.

I agree. With the "kill the dangerous animal" mentality...in a few generations, it won't be a problem, because there won't be any to worry about.

The "people" could use some thinning out out if you ask me....sometimes you lose a good one but the percentages aren't bad.

Unfortunately natural selection doesn't work as well with humans as it does in the animal kingdom.

[edbert]

This is about the only thing that will attack me in my neighborhood.

My Wife took this photo yesterday on our front lawn

http://www.4u2me.com/Bunny-on-Lasareath-Lawn.jpg



They are more dangerous than you think!!!!!

[Airplay355]

If they haven't found the lion, how do they know it weighs 120lbs? How does that guy know the lion wanted to kill them? It went after the dog. A dog is certainly snack sized food. Why are we going to kill a lion for trying to eat a dog. It's not some vicious killer, it couldn't even finish the dog off. It never even touched the people, hurt the people and certainly didn't kill anyone.

I found a shark tooth on the beach the other day, so clearly there are hungry sharks in the area. I'd like to go into the ocean so I think we should rid the ocean of sharks so I can protect myself. :rolleyes:

Human life is not sacred, get over yourself. You're just tiger/lion/shark food that has been lucky enough to not get eaten yet.

+1 Shack. The smartest animal on the planet manages to protect it's species from natural selection with it's technology and make the species worse off as a whole....ironic isn't it.

[Airplay355]

http://www.wildlifemanagementpro.com/2008/03/26/mule-kills-mountain-lion-photos/ Another lion that wanted to eat dogs. Maybe we should kill the mules/horses too, since if they wanted to turn on you they could easily kill you.

[wingnut4772]

I couldn't have read past the first sentence if they didn't say the dog would make it. What lucky people.

[steveinaz]

First off... 99.99% of wildlife displays a certain fear of man, and rightly so. and 99% of the time this cat would have walked, or run the OTHER way. Not so in this case. This particular cat decided that people were a tasty meal, and once they attach people, they will do so again. It is the same reason a farmer will put down the family dog if it turns on his chickens. Once an animal becomes a danger to people, then people come first. A zoo would also be dangerous for a cat like this as it would turn on those feeding it and also pose a risk to other animals.

A PREDATORY instinct was triggered in that cat, for whatever reason; which can happen with any wild animal. ANY wild animal has the potential to attack.

Your example about the farm dog is an apples to oranges comparison. The lion displayed normal predatory behavior. Do you think lions are taught to not attack humans? We are food baby, just like anything else.

[snow]

So shall we go out and kill all dangerous animals? Rid the oceans of sharks? Educate yourself before you hike; carry a firearm, bear spray, whatever--be prepared. I'm not saying you don't kill an animal actively attacking you, but why hunt one down after the fact? Kalifornia of all places---the tree-huggers mecca, or so they claim.Simply because if a mountain lion starts stalking humans it wont stop, and this was near a campground where there are going to be lots more tasty humans and odds are the next time it attacks which it will, there wont be a dog present to protect them, time and again mountain lions that attack humans once do so again and again until killed it's sad but a fact. The same way with tigers in india or bears in north america. Sure it would be nice if everyone carried a weapon and was prepared but they arent prepared and wont carry a weapon and even if everyone was prepared and did carry a weapon why should they wait until it attacks again knowing full well it will? Sure you can say ok we were kind and waited till it attacked again before we killed it but my little girl was mauled and scarred for life.



REGARDS SNOW

[shadowofnight]

If they haven't found the lion, how do they know it weighs 120lbs? How does that guy know the lion wanted to kill them? It went after the dog. A dog is certainly snack sized food. Why are we going to kill a lion for trying to eat a dog. It's not some vicious killer, it couldn't even finish the dog off. It never even touched the people, hurt the people and certainly didn't kill anyone.

Exactly...as I mentioned before, the cat saw the dog...something he viewed as an easy way to a full stomach.

Say Joe human hadnt eaten for 5 days and he ran across a juicy 1/2 pound hamburger in his kitchen ( His natural food in its natural surrounding ) but there happened to be green alien standing in the corner of the kitchen....would Joe human be more concerned with if the green alien could possibly hurt him...or B lining to that hamburger so he doesnt starve to death ?

That hiker was lucky it ran across a normal mountain lion and not a mankiller.

[snow]

Exactly...as I mentioned before, the cat saw the dog...something he viewed as an easy way to a full stomach.

Say Joe human hadnt eaten for 5 days and he ran across a juicy 1/2 pound hamburger in his kitchen ( His natural food in its natural surrounding ) but there happened to be green alien standing in the corner of the kitchen....would Joe human be more concerned with if the green alien could possibly hurt him...or B lining to that hamburger so he doesnt starve to death ?

That hiker was lucky it ran across a normal mountain lion and not a mankiller. Great analogy but totally wrong. First off dogs arent hamburgers and are not there natural food in there natural enviroment. Secondly the Mountain lion attacked the people and then the dog protected them it didnt attack the dog by itself. And even if that was the case and the dog was the intended target but still attacked with people present but wasnt concerned about the people it has shown it has no fear of people and would attack them without a second thought. The mountain lion was not a "NORMAL" mountain lion behaving normally if it had of been it would have never attacked with people present.



REGARDS SNOW

[Zero]

I'll wait until the lion is interviewed on 60 minutes to get the other side of the story.

[cfrizz]

+10 Air, Mark, Steve, Shack etc.

You are in their territory that is the risk you run. It is the arrogance & bloodthirsty mentality of man who has put a good many animals on the endangered speicies lists.

Nature originally had most things in balance, we have upset that balance so much that it isn't funny. We systematically eliminate most natural predators of other animals and as a result have an overabundance of those animals that can now breed & live & breed at will. Sometimes resulting in deaths of us because we run into them on the road.

God bless that dog for saving its owners, but leave the lion alone.

If they haven't found the lion, how do they know it weighs 120lbs? How does that guy know the lion wanted to kill them? It went after the dog. A dog is certainly snack sized food. Why are we going to kill a lion for trying to eat a dog. It's not some vicious killer, it couldn't even finish the dog off. It never even touched the people, hurt the people and certainly didn't kill anyone.

I found a shark tooth on the beach the other day, so clearly there are hungry sharks in the area. I'd like to go into the ocean so I think we should rid the ocean of sharks so I can protect myself. :rolleyes:

Human life is not sacred, get over yourself. You're just tiger/lion/shark food that has been lucky enough to not get eaten yet.

+1 Shack. The smartest animal on the planet manages to protect it's species from natural selection with it's technology and make the species worse off as a whole....ironic isn't it.

[Lord Vader]

+10 Air, Mark, Steve, Shack etc.

You are in their territory that is the risk you run. It is the arrogance & bloodthirsty mentality of man who has put a good many animals on the endangered speicies lists.

Nature originally had most things in balance, we have upset that balance so much that it isn't funny. We systematically eliminate most natural predators of other animals and as a result have an overabundance of those animals that can now breed & live & breed at will. Sometimes resulting in deaths of us because we run into them on the road.

God bless that dog for saving its owners, but leave the lion alone.

correction. They are in our territory and attacking us... The "bloodthirsty" mentality of man??? I counter that it is the ability of man to protect themselves from threats that has protected you and your right to find man to be at fault here. Perhaps we should instead say "here kitty-kitty" and scratch them behind the ear with one hand while the lion knaws away on the other...

[Kex]

There are mountain lions in our area. The Angeles National Forest is right up the hill from our street and there are plenty of trails to hike. Here is what the Rangers had to say about the topic recently:
If you hike these trails NEVER bring your dog: it is like a beacon to any mountain lion for miles around, and if it shows up, the dog will always loose.Take it FWIW.

[hearingimpared]

Human life is not sacred, get over yourself. You're just tiger/lion/shark food that has been lucky enough to not get eaten yet.




That is absurd. Human life is sacred! How can you compare humans to be just food that is lucky not to be "tiger/lion/shark" food? Perhaps we should take convicts and feed them to animals in the zoo instead of the meat from steers and such.

[ryanjoachim]

Kudos to the dog for defending itself and it's person. -1 billion to the idiots who want to kill the cat.

Is the cat dangerous? Yes. Will the cat attack someone again? Maybe. Do we know what set off the cat in the first place? No.

Needless to say, the cat could have been startled by something when the man and dog came around. The dog could have chased or antagonized the cat (barking). The cat could have just been having a shitty day.

All in all, just because it's a "campground" doesn't give us the right to kill anything that happens to take offense at us destroying it's home. If the cat attacks again and is caught then, go ahead and relocate it. If it seems rabid or diseased, then go ahead and kill it.

Killing it just for being WHAT IT IS...idiotic.

[Kex]

Scott's Crabgrass Preventer followed in 8 weeks by Weed n Feed. A good mowing in order as well :)Give the poor guy a break! He was living in an appartment a short time ago. He probably doesn't even own a lawnmower yet!

Hey Sal, since it's been mentioned: pushing that lawnmower might help with that training program you were talking about!

[ryanjoachim]

That is absurd. Human life is sacred! How can you compare humans to be just food that is lucky not to be "tiger/lion/shark" food? Perhaps we should take convicts and feed them to animals in the zoo instead of the meat from steers and such.

And thanks for bringing this up.

Humans kill with a conscious action. They choose who and what to kill. Animals kill because they need to, either for food or to protect something.

If we kill animals just because they attack us, why don't we kill humans when they outright kill each other?

"Humans aren't animals!"
Wrong. We are worse than the real animals.

Dogs used to be animals. They used to kill other animals (still do on occasion). What makes them so different now? Domestication. Now anything the dog does wrong is usually blamed on the human. And then the dog dies.

I don't see how it's fair.

[dorokusai]

Great analogy but totally wrong. First off dogs arent hamburgers and are not there natural food in there natural enviroment. Secondly the Mountain lion attacked the people and then the dog protected them it didnt attack the dog by itself. And even if that was the case and the dog was the intended target but still attacked with people present but wasnt concerned about the people it has shown it has no fear of people and would attack them without a second thought. The mountain lion was not a "NORMAL" mountain lion behaving normally if it had of been it would have never attacked with people present.



REGARDS SNOW

If the mountain lion had extra moderators or even super moderators to oversee the moderators it would have come down to a 30 sided die roll at best. Unfortunately the dog didn't have a coat of invisibility and the lion had vorpal fangs +5. Everyone loses and another parrot has been strangled by a drunk Jimmy Buffet fan.

[ryanjoachim]

If the mountain lion had extra moderators or even super moderators to oversee the moderators it would have come down to a 30 sided die roll at best. Unfortunately the dog didn't have a coat of invisibility and the lion had vorpal fangs +5. Everyone loses and another parrot has been strangled by a drunk Jimmy Buffet fan.

hahaha...I giggled IRL. Thanks!

[skipf]

I'll bet a lot of Cali folks are regretting banning hunting for mountain lions about ten years ago. There are more incidents like this happening every year that goes by. As the population of lions increases, they are bound to come in more contact with humans as they won't share a territory with another lion. When hunted, the lions stayed away from humans as a conditioned response. Now they are discovering we are the softest, tastiest, easiest to catch and subdue large prey animal out there in the woods.

[jflail2]

And this is why I will conceal carry on all future hikes, regardless if it's a national park or not. I want the warm, fuzzy safe feeling of a .45 under my arm in case something like this were to ever happen...

[bruss]

Didnt Lassie take out a Mountain Lion..

[shack]

And this is why I will conceal carry on all future hikes, regardless if it's a national park or not. I want the warm, fuzzy safe feeling of a .45 under my arm in case something like this were to ever happen...

I guess you are special and don't have to obey the laws like the rest of us. If you don't like the laws regarding carrying a firearm in a National Park....DON'T GO!

[shadowofnight]

Great analogy but totally wrong. First off dogs arent hamburgers and are not there natural food in there natural enviroment. Secondly the Mountain lion attacked the people and then the dog protected them it didnt attack the dog by itself. And even if that was the case and the dog was the intended target but still attacked with people present but wasnt concerned about the people it has shown it has no fear of people and would attack them without a second thought. The mountain lion was not a "NORMAL" mountain lion behaving normally if it had of been it would have never attacked with people present.



REGARDS SNOW

I just figured people would know a dog was pretty close to a coyote...which is natural prey is all...it would look the same to a hungry cat. I also agree that unless starving or injured, most cats wouldnt have done that...but even a considered normal cat might have thought the dog ( Coyote ) was just too easy of pickings to pass on.

I also thought the people were not attacked ...did they receive injuries ?

[ben62670]

It is not normal for a Mountain Lion to attack people. Live stock sometimes, but people? They usually go the other way. If you value a predators life more than a humans please slap and sterilize yourself. The weak argument that you shouldn't be outdoors is real nice for the apartment/city dwellers.
Thanks
Ben

[steveinaz]

correction. They are in our territory and attacking us...

Apparently, the lion felt it was his territory--

I'm not getting your point. So wild animals should "know" when they have just entered a camp ground or other geneva convention human protected area?

You must live in the city huh?

[ryanjoachim]

It is not normal for a Mountain Lion to attack people. Live stock sometimes, but people? They usually go the other way. If you value a predators life more than a humans please slap and sterilize yourself. The weak argument that you shouldn't be outdoors is real nice for the apartment/city dwellers.
Thanks
Ben

Again, nothing in the news article said anything about the cat attacking the humans. The dog was the only victim. I seriously doubt any dog smaller than a lab could do any sort of "serious" damage to a mountain lion, which leads me to believe that the cat was after the dog solely and not the humans.

[shadowofnight]

There are mountain lions in our area. The Angeles National Forest is right up the hill from our street and there are plenty of trails to hike. Here is what the Rangers had to say about the topic recently:
Take it FWIW.

" If you hike these trails NEVER bring your dog: it is like a beacon to any mountain lion for miles around, and if it shows up, the dog will always loose.
"

Exactly...it looks like natural prey to the cat...like the wording beacon :D

[steveinaz]

Didnt Lassie take out a Mountain Lion..

I think Lassie even kicked a whales ass in one episode....:D

[ben62670]

Did you read the article, and watch the video. I guess not.
I guess they would have been much better off without the dog:rolleyes:
You guys have fun.

[steveinaz]

I guess you are special and don't have to obey the laws like the rest of us. If you don't like the laws regarding carrying a firearm in a National Park....DON'T GO!

Sorry Shack-master, I disagree. While it is illegal, better to be judged by 12 then eaten by 1. I don't see a problem with people carrying a firearm for the sole purpose of animal protection--just in case. Silly laws won't keep me out of my tax funded National Park either. having said all that, I would not shoot an animal unless it was obvoius that it was about to attack.

An example, last year Bev & I were camping (not a national park) and there was a lion in the area (we saw it). He even sliced the edges of the campground a few times, and though I had my 12 gauge--I left him alone. While it did make sleeping at night a little stressful, it all worked out fine.

[shawn474]

So should we kill all dogs who go after cats, all cats who go after mice, etc? It's ludicrous. A natural instinct - how do you know the mountain lion was hungry? He may have attacked because he saw another ANIMAL threatening to move into his territory.........a natural reaction for animals is to attack or ward off others trying to invade their territory.

[ben62670]

Sorry Shack-master, I disagree. While it is illegal, better to be judged by 12 then eaten by 1. I don't see a problem with people carrying a firearm for the sole purpose of animal protection--just in case. Silly laws won't keep me out of my tax funded National Park either. having said all that, I would not shoot an animal unless it was obvoius that it was about to attack.

An example, last year Bev & I were camping and there was a lion in the area (we saw it). He even sliced the edges of the campground a few times, and though I had my 12 gauge--I left him alone. While it did make sleeping at night a little stressful, it all worked out fine.

Link for Steve (http://www.jerrysbaitandtackle.com/Recipes/MLion/GreenChili.htm)

[jflail2]

Sorry Shack-master, I disagree. While it is illegal, better to be judged by 12 then eaten by 1. I don't see a problem with people carrying a firearm for the sole purpose of animal protection--just in case. Silly laws won't keep me out of my tax funded National Park either.

Agreed Steve.

I guess you are special and don't have to obey the laws like the rest of us.

So you don't speed, run red lights, nothing at all eh? If you do, do the rest of us a favor and stay off the roads please. Your speeding would be more apt to kill someone than my carrying a pistol in a national park for personal protection only. Well I'm definitely not a perfect citizen (unlike yourself) but I do no harm to my fellow man. If I decide to risk being caught with a concealed pistol that is being carried for protection ONLY, I don't see how that's a huge deal.

edit: And I COMPLETELY agree Steve. I'd never shoot an animal just to shoot one; that's what clays and paper targets are for. Only for safety purposes...

[POIDOG]

It's interesting to note all the opinions of people not aware of the area we are discussing.
While the loin has a right to exist, the Cleveland National Forest is huge. That campground is on the fringes of this area. One of the problems in this area is a severe drought that has impacted some animal behavior (including humans). The point here is simple, there are hundreds of documented lions in the area, which are not attacking humans. In fact, many are co-existing with humans, which is one of the tributes to the Cleveland National Forest. This is an example of a lion going astray. It happens alot here and is well documented, maulings of dogs and yes, small children. The good people of this area do not go on wild parties of killing lions at whim. A govermental policy is in place to protect man and animals. So please, spare us your dribble about animal rights, while you verbally trample on human safety. If it was your life or safety, what would you do?

[ben62670]

So should we kill all dogs who go after cats, all cats who go after mice, etc? It's ludicrous. A natural instinct - how do you know the mountain lion was hungry? He may have attacked because he saw another ANIMAL threatening to move into his territory.........a natural reaction for animals is to attack or ward off others trying to invade their territory.

Please say something moderately intelligent. The poor kitty(Mountain Lion) had no place to run. It felt threatened:rolleyes: Some of you people are so silly.

[Lord Vader]

Apparently, the lion felt it was his territory--

I'm not getting your point. So wild animals should "know" when they have just entered a camp ground or other geneva convention human protected area?

You must live in the city huh?
Actually no, I live near a river and have plenty of wildlife all around me. I have even lost a litter of kittens to the Eagles that soar over my home all the time. My dog was targeted by coyote and thankfully she was able to defend herself. It has ALWAYS been the case that man and nature don't always get along and always will be that way. I do NOT subscribe to the environmental whacko point of view that every time we encounter a billygoat in its's natural habitat that it is I that need to leave. There is something called environmental stewardship which comes into play here. There are plenty of wild mountain lions out there. Leave them alone and in peace, but this ONE is dangerous to HUMANS, and in my book people come first.

[ben62670]

It's interesting to note all the opinions of people not aware of the area we are discussing.
While the loin has a right to exist, the Cleveland National Forest is huge. That campground is on the fringes of this area. One of the problems in this area is a severe drought that has impacted some animal behavior (including humans). The point here is simple, there are hundreds of documented lions in the area, which are not attacking humans. In fact, many are co-existing with humans, which is one of the tributes to the Cleveland National Forest. This is an example of a lion going astray. It happens alot here and is well documented, maulings of dogs and yes, small children. The good people of this area do not go on wild parties of killing lions at whim. A govermental policy is in place to protect man and animals. So please, spare us your dribble about animal rights, while you verbally trample on human safety. If it was your life or safety, what would you do?

Thank you very much.

[hearingimpared]

"Humans aren't animals!"
Wrong. We are worse than the real animals.



I think you need to take the "we" out of that statement.

[Doctor R]

As we all view both sides of this argument we have to consider that many people consider this to be normal aggressive behavior for the cat. It is not normal! This cat did not grow to be its size not noting the "human and domestic" animals traveling through its territory before. Something has changed in this cat. He (or she) is sadly sick. In this case there will be additional encounters and they will escalate. The only other possibility is that the people and thier dog actually cornered the cat and threatened it. It could have been a mother protecting its cubs. This last scenario is the only one that should allow a reprive for this animal. This is a public health issue that is occuring in one of our public parks.

[ryanjoachim]

I think you need to take the "we" out of that statement.

There's a reason why we have this thing called "Human nature". It's a base instinct. If someone broke into your house, you'd protect yourself. If some stranger walked on your yard with your kids playing there, you'd move towards him or tell him to get off your yard.

It's obviously different in some ways with animals, but they are based on instinct. We can't fault them for attacking us or anything/one else. We're in their world when in the forest. It doesn't matter if you're on the "fringe" of the forest or deep within. They have no way of knowing "Oh, I can't go past this tree, cause the humans say so!"

We'll keep mass-murderers/terrorists/serial killers alive, and pay for them to live and eat in jail, but kill any animal that does the only thing it knows to do.

[Lord Vader]

There's a reason why we have this thing called "Human nature". It's a base instinct. If someone broke into your house, you'd protect yourself. If some stranger walked on your yard with your kids playing there, you'd move towards him or tell him to get off your yard.

It's obviously different in some ways with animals, but they are based on instinct. We can't fault them for attacking us or anything/one else. We're in their world when in the forest. It doesn't matter if you're on the "fringe" of the forest or deep within. They have no way of knowing "Oh, I can't go past this tree, cause the humans say so!"

We'll keep mass-murderers/terrorists/serial killers alive, and pay for them to live and eat in jail, but kill any animal that does the only thing it knows to do.this is not a logical REASONED response. You must stop comparing Humans to animals. We are what is called a scentient being, meaning WE have a soul and the ability to determine right from wrong. WE have the ability to use this inherent GOD given ability to think and reason for ourselves. Animals do NOT possess this skill. Sure they are cute and can learn a few tricks and all, but this does not in any way imbue them with HUMAN abilities. will a lion stop and ask a human hiker with a broken leg if they would like them to go get help? NO!!! The human on the other would certainly try and help the cat... Stop living in a Tweety and Sylvester world where the stupid bird can talk and the cat can order the latest techonlogical terror from ACME.

Thththhhthhhat's all folks!

[steveinaz]

I just think it's rediculous to think that you can somehow reach a point where you're perfectly safe in the outdoors. So, as I said before, what do we do? Comb the forest with pitch forks and shotguns and rid the land of these mean creatures? Get real. Just use some damn common sense and be prepared before you take these expeditions.

And BTW, just what exactly is "normal" behavior for a wild animal---that's comical. Damn, I though I was the gun-toten redneck around here!?

The Lion meat recipe is tantilizing however.

[ben62670]

I just think it's rediculous to think that you can somehow reach a point where you're perfectly safe in the outdoors. So, as I said before, what do we do? Comb the forest with pitch forks and shotguns and rid the land of these mean creatures? Get real. Just use some damn common sense and be prepared before you take these expeditions.

And BTW, just what exactly is "normal" behavior for a wild animal---that's comical.

I don't think anyone is saying that the outdoors is perfectly safe. What I am saying is the Mountain Lion wasn't trapped. We do have the right to go outdoors. Yes use common sense, but there are bad animals, and one less Mountain Lion is not going to hurt anyone. Normal behavior for a mountain lion is to avoid humans;)

[Lord Vader]

I just think it's rediculous to think that you can somehow reach a point where you're perfectly safe in the outdoors. So, as I said before, what do we do? Comb the forest with pitch forks and shotguns and rid the land of these mean creatures? Get real. Just use some damn common sense and be prepared before you take these expeditions.

And BTW, just what exactly is "normal" behavior for a wild animal---that's comical. Damn, I though I was the gun-toten redneck around here!?

The Lion meat recipe is tantilizing however.
Tantalizing indeed. Nobody has said kill'em all, rather just this ONE. And I prefer my lightsaber to your firearms. Such weapons are no match for the power of the Dark SIDE!:cool:

[strider]

I like the fact that I can still go somewhere and not be at the top of the food chain. Helps keep me humble. Those places are getting harder and harder to find.

[treitz3]

Hmmmmm, food chain.......

http://www.ampland.com/humor/pics/15/03282009fXmAo6f.jpg

[shawn474]

ben, thanks for your input. I am not an animal rights extremist by any stretch of the imagination. I do feel that we all have our place on this earth. You can call it corny or whatever else. However I find it funny that you belittle the point I was trying to make with your sarcasm.

Here's my point in brief. Why should that animal have to run? Just because there is a human around? The animal is native to that area; not the human. The fact that you think you are the mountain lion whisperer enough to decipher what that animal should consider a threat is comical. Just their physical presence in their territory in threat enough for it to act to defend itself. Does the human have to point a gun to pose a threat? Does the dog have to growl or bark to pose a threat? We (humans) keep invading their natural habitats more each year. This leads to more competition for more species in smaller areas - that's a fact. Sooner or later, we will realize that and give animals, wildlife, plant species, etc. their due respect. I feel like such a treehugger after having said that.:eek:

The fact is that the mountain lion could have easily killed that dog and the human if it wanted to. If it was attacking because it needed a meal, it would have killed both of them to eat or died trying. Nowhere does it say that the human was touched by the lion; if I read correctly the dog and lion were in a fight. I am just saying that it could have felt threatened that another animal was invading the territory and attacked it to ward it off.

[Lord Vader]

ben, thanks for your input. I am not an animal rights extremist by any stretch of the imagination. I do feel that we all have our place on this earth. You can call it corny or whatever else. However I find it funny that you belittle the point I was trying to make with your sarcasm.

Here's my point in brief. Why should that animal have to run? Just because there is a human around? The animal is native to that area; not the human. The fact that you think you are the mountain lion whisperer enough to decipher what that animal should consider a threat is comical. Just their physical presence in their territory in threat enough for it to act to defend itself. Does the human have to point a gun to pose a threat? Does the dog have to growl or bark to pose a threat? We (humans) keep invading their natural habitats more each year. This leads to more competition for more species in smaller areas - that's a fact. Sooner or later, we will realize that and give animals, wildlife, plant species, etc. their due respect. I feel like such a treehugger after having said that.:eek:

The fact is that the mountain lion could have easily killed that dog and the human if it wanted to. If it was attacking because it needed a meal, it would have killed both of them to eat or died trying. Nowhere does it say that the human was touched by the lion; if I read correctly the dog and lion were in a fight. I am just saying that it could have felt threatened that another animal was invading the territory and attacked it to ward it off.The point is who cares WHY it attacked. If you want to declare the area a lion preserve, then we should not be there. It is however a STATE PARK, and as such it is the responsibility for the STATE to keep the area safe for HUMANS and not the other way around. I don't care what it was FEELING!!! They have NO feelings. If it did it would walk up to Ranger Smith and appologize like the cowardly lion in the cartoons. Stop buying into the BS that says animals are people too... they are not.

[ben62670]

OK two humans and a dog out in nature. Natural instinct is to stay away. Anytime an animal attacks in a situation like that there is something wrong. It's real real simple. You can go on with the poor kitty thing if you would like, but when a wild animal presents itself like that the odds of it doing it again are much higher. Just a curiosity question how would you feel if they did nothing about it and the lion attacked again this time killing someone. Are you poor kitty people that much smarter than the rangers that have to take college courses to get their positions? Come on now Please. Yes nature is nature. If you want to look at it that we are just animals. We are the top dogs, and we protect our cubs(children) who may be out in the woods with the other animals:rolleyes:

[POIDOG]

[QUOTE=shawn474;1066127]
Here's my point in brief. Why should that animal have to run? Just because there is a human around? The animal is native to that area; not the human.

Again, to a point, this statment is factually incorrect. People have lived in this area for thousands of years. Don't hack fodder for the kool aid drinkers, if you feel like a tree hugger, it's because you spew their bs. :rolleyes:

[ben62670]

Another little thing to add. Rangers become rangers most likely because they love nature, and I am sure they are not to pleased about having to put down the animal.

[seeclear]

Don't you think that if Mountain Lions had the capacity to act in concert for the protection of their young and the betterment of their species, they would? They lack that capacity, we don't. End of story.

[megasat16]

Another little thing to add. Rangers become rangers most likely because they love nature, and I am sure they are not to pleased about having to put down the animal.

Yeah! I don't know what you guys are disagreeing for but it's pretty sure thing that no Ranger wants to hurt or hunt the wild animals (unless he is half psycho) without a good reason.

The sad thing is that it is Human's natural instinct that kicks in and prevent disaster from happening which can be interpreted as Killing the Wild Animals first before it happens again.

It's not fair to the nature and the animal Kingdom but it's who we are and that's what we do! Perhaps, some of us can think outside the box and protect the nature and natural order instead of shoot first, be safe and think later kind of reaction to this.

I bet half of the endangered species or the species already extinct are due to the Human Nature of to kill or to be killed sentiment.

It's really no one's fault but with today's advances of technology and equipments, we can hopefully protect more wildlife as much as we protect our own.

[Doctor R]

I have to agree with you Ben. Many people do not understand that this is not this animal's "normal" behavior. I deal with animals all day every day as it is my occupation. I deal with domestic andimals and do some work with zoo animals. There are behaviors that wild cats have and to attack in this situation as described i.e. unprovoked is not normal or would it be considered normal in an lion preserve. It is a sad day for all of us who work with animals when something like this occurs, but this "behavior" cannot just be relocated.

[Lord Vader]

I bet half of the endangered species or the species already extinct are due to the Human Nature of to kill or to be killed sentiment. Mother nature does the endangering these days, and throughout the history of the planet, she has destroyed 95% of what has ever existed upon it. We are the first species that has actually tried to PREVENT extinctions. Who knows, maybe my grandchildren will one day run from T-Rex in fear for their lives because we were stupid enough to bring them back. There are currently such experiments going on with bringing back the Wooly Mammoth and a few extict birds. Geneticists are also working on rewinding evolution by turning on and off markers within our own genomes as well as those of animals. Let any other animal say it posesses the ability to create animals from test tubes or protect other species from extinction and I will cut them some slack... wait they can't talk.

[ben62670]

...I bet half of the endangered species or the species already extinct are due to the Human Nature of to kill or to be killed sentiment.

It's really no one's fault but with today's advances of technology and equipments, we can hopefully protect more wildlife as much as we protect our own.

We have come along way in this country from the days of Oh lets go out and shoot everything that we think may harm us, or they are easy food. Regulations have come a long way also. Scientist keep a good eye on the populations of animals we are allowed to hunt/fish.

How do you propose that we protect these animals? We could spend a ton of money trapping and putting radio collars all the animals in the wild? Test them yearly for disease? This is a fairly isolated incident. I think the trained professionals are handling it properly;) There is no mob going out with pitch forks and such to dispatch of every Mountain Lion within 100 miles:rolleyes: It is very probable that the Lion has retreated and is far away.

[shadowofnight]

Now this is a cougar that would be worth the hunt...you cant get a bigger trophy then one that has won cougar of the year :D


http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=40070&d=1241642902

[snow]

+10 Air, Mark, Steve, Shack etc.

You are in their territory that is the risk you run. It is the arrogance & bloodthirsty mentality of man who has put a good many animals on the endangered speicies lists.

Nature originally had most things in balance, we have upset that balance so much that it isn't funny. We systematically eliminate most natural predators of other animals and as a result have an overabundance of those animals that can now breed & live & breed at will. Sometimes resulting in deaths of us because we run into them on the road.

God bless that dog for saving its owners, but leave the lion alone.Agreed to a point no doubt man has killed off many species of animals.

Kudos to the dog for defending itself and it's person. -1 billion to the idiots who want to kill the cat.

Is the cat dangerous? Yes. Will the cat attack someone again? Maybe. Do we know what set off the cat in the first place? No.

Needless to say, the cat could have been startled by something when the man and dog came around. The dog could have chased or antagonized the cat (barking). The cat could have just been having a shitty day.

All in all, just because it's a "campground" doesn't give us the right to kill anything that happens to take offense at us destroying it's home. If the cat attacks again and is caught then, go ahead and relocate it. If it seems rabid or diseased, then go ahead and kill it.

Killing it just for being WHAT IT IS...idiotic.The cat wasnt defending it's territory. No reason to wait to either shoot the cat with a paralyzing dart and then move it to a zoo or kill it one or the other has to be done to ensure the safety of humans, once a cat shows no fear of humans and attacks it wont stop. No one is killing the cat for being what it is, normal behavior for these animals are to avoid humans.

If the mountain lion had extra moderators or even super moderators to oversee the moderators it would have come down to a 30 sided die roll at best. Unfortunately the dog didn't have a coat of invisibility and the lion had vorpal fangs +5. Everyone loses and another parrot has been strangled by a drunk Jimmy Buffet fan.Now your just being silly, you know as well as I do we ned more moderators but of course you dont want to share your esteemed position due to your pride getting in the way :rolleyes:

I just figured people would know a dog was pretty close to a coyote...which is natural prey is all...it would look the same to a hungry cat. I also agree that unless starving or injured, most cats wouldnt have done that...but even a considered normal cat might have thought the dog ( Coyote ) was just too easy of pickings to pass on.

I also thought the people were not attacked ...did they receive injuries ? The people were not injured that I am aware of thanks to the dog. But as mentioned earlier any cat that shows a lack of fear of humans and attacks is a threat.

Again, nothing in the news article said anything about the cat attacking the humans. The dog was the only victim. I seriously doubt any dog smaller than a lab could do any sort of "serious" damage to a mountain lion, which leads me to believe that the cat was after the dog solely and not the humans. Actually the article said the cat attacked, then the dog got between the humans and cat and saved there lives.

It's interesting to note all the opinions of people not aware of the area we are discussing.
While the loin has a right to exist, the Cleveland National Forest is huge. That campground is on the fringes of this area. One of the problems in this area is a severe drought that has impacted some animal behavior (including humans). The point here is simple, there are hundreds of documented lions in the area, which are not attacking humans. In fact, many are co-existing with humans, which is one of the tributes to the Cleveland National Forest. This is an example of a lion going astray. It happens alot here and is well documented, maulings of dogs and yes, small children. The good people of this area do not go on wild parties of killing lions at whim. A govermental policy is in place to protect man and animals. So please, spare us your dribble about animal rights, while you verbally trample on human safety. If it was your life or safety, what would you do? Agreed 100%

Actually no, I live near a river and have plenty of wildlife all around me. I have even lost a litter of kittens to the Eagles that soar over my home all the time. My dog was targeted by coyote and thankfully she was able to defend herself. It has ALWAYS been the case that man and nature don't always get along and always will be that way. I do NOT subscribe to the environmental whacko point of view that every time we encounter a billygoat in its's natural habitat that it is I that need to leave. There is something called environmental stewardship which comes into play here. There are plenty of wild mountain lions out there. Leave them alone and in peace, but this ONE is dangerous to HUMANS, and in my book people come first. Geez I never though I would be saying this but you are absolutley correct :D

As we all view both sides of this argument we have to consider that many people consider this to be normal aggressive behavior for the cat. It is not normal! This cat did not grow to be its size not noting the "human and domestic" animals traveling through its territory before. Something has changed in this cat. He (or she) is sadly sick. In this case there will be additional encounters and they will escalate. The only other possibility is that the people and thier dog actually cornered the cat and threatened it. It could have been a mother protecting its cubs. This last scenario is the only one that should allow a reprive for this animal. This is a public health issue that is occuring in one of our public parks. Agreed 100% It is not normal behavior and once they start they dont stop attacking and yes usally it's because the cat is sick that it attacks outside of its normal prey. And yes once they start it only gets worse and they do not stop.

Another little thing to add. Rangers become rangers most likely because they love nature, and I am sure they are not to pleased about having to put down the animal. Exactly I love animals as much as anyone here, I live in an area where there is an abundance of wildlife but unless I am hungry and in actual need of food I dont hunt or fish not saying that others that do trophy hunt or sport fish are bad people that is up to them to choose what they want to do, but my personal choice is live and let live until I get hungry :D



REGARDS SNOW

[megasat16]

We have come along way in this country from the days of Oh lets go out and shoot everything that we think may harm us, or they are easy food. Regulations have come a long way also. Scientist keep a good eye on the populations of animals we are allowed to hunt/fish.

How do you propose that we protect these animals? We could spend a ton of money trapping and putting radio collars all the animals in the wild? Test them yearly for disease? This is a fairly isolated incident. I think the trained professionals are handling it properly;) There is no mob going out with pitch forks and such to dispatch of every Mountain Lion within 100 miles:rolleyes: It is very probable that the Lion has retreated and is far away.

Ben, I am mostly in agreement with you or everyone here. I just want to make some sense about shooting the poor thing.

People have different opinion about handling this and I don't think they are all totally wrong at all. It's just that we take care of things before (even with all regulations and restrictions) they do it again. You got to accept the fact that 99% of rangers will do exactly that when it comes with the cause to protect human's life.

As far as thoughts to be concerned, I think thoughts are already made - there are plenty of wildlife protected zones where you can't shoot to kill. If you are a human going to such places, think about your life since you are being equal to the animals living there and you are no longer at the top of the food chain.

Personally, I wouldn't go to wildlife protected zones and got myself killed by a mountain lion or a tiger. I think there are other safer places or I need to prepare to fight or to become food for something out there.

[dorokusai]

It is not normal for a Mountain Lion to attack people. Live stock sometimes, but people? They usually go the other way. If you value a predators life more than a humans please slap and sterilize yourself. The weak argument that you shouldn't be outdoors is real nice for the apartment/city dwellers.
Thanks
Ben

I value predators more than humans.

[ben62670]

If you fallow the rules in National parks you are pretty damn safe. Millions of people visit these places every year. There are very few attacks like this. Just something to chew on(pun intended).

I value predators more than humans.
I would expect that.
You sir are not human.

[megasat16]

Mother nature does the endangering these days, and throughout the history of the planet, she has destroyed 95% of what has ever existed upon it. We are the first species that has actually tried to PREVENT extinctions. Who knows, maybe my grandchildren will one day run from T-Rex in fear for their lives because we were stupid enough to bring them back. There are currently such experiments going on with bringing back the Wooly Mammoth and a few extict birds. Geneticists are also working on rewinding evolution by turning on and off markers within our own genomes as well as those of animals. Let any other animal say it posesses the ability to create animals from test tubes or protect other species from extinction and I will cut them some slack... wait they can't talk.

Dark Lord of the forces,

I think Mother Nature does endangering in about a few million years while we humans do it a lot quicker and sooner. :D

As much as I want to consider myself as a man with passion for Science and Engineering, playing or recreating life through Science is playing the hands of God and I am not signed up for this or agreed to it.

When the time comes, I want to die peacefully without reanimated or recreated 1000 years later. That goes for my love ones and all things alive around me too. :)

[megasat16]

If you fallow the rules in National parks you are pretty damn safe. Millions of people visit these places every year. There are very few attacks like this. Just something to chew on(pun intended).


I would expect that.
You sir are not human.

FYI, Ben! Wildlife protected Zones are mostly not the National Parks to attract visitors and tourists for funs. The main theme is to protect wildlife and preserve them.

May be I deserve not to be a Human but believe me, I am as much Human as you are. :)

[snow]

The cool thing here is that for once even though we all have differing views on what should or shouldndt be done with this and future Mountain lions we are having an respectful adult debate, I am proud of each and everyone of you.



Carry On

SNOW

[ben62670]

FYI, Ben! Wildlife protected Zones are mostly not the National Parks to attract visitors and tourists for funs. The main theme is to protect wildlife and preserve them.

May be I deserve not to be a Human but believe me, I am as much as Human as you are. :)

They are set aside for us to enjoy. Sometimes they are managed by fools who think nature will just balance itself out. Good example is near where I lived. They had a Wildlife protected Zone (Yale Forrest) where they decided to stop hunting. Well the deer population exploded, and then they were weak and sick(diseased). So the Coyotes had some easy meals for a good stretch. Now the coyote population boomed. The food population couldn't support it. Well all these educated animal rights activist were losing their cats and dogs left and right. Long story short people were brought in to harvest the over population of coyotes. Guess what the deer population exploded again. This time they gave out a managed number of permits like they used to before. Please I grew up in the country. I knew game wardens. I still talk to a biologist who hunts and fishes regularly. Lesson is be smart and kill the bad kitty;) Populations need to be managed in many areas. We have learned a lot in the last 30 years:)

[ben62670]

The cool thing here is that for once even though we all have differing views on what should or shouldndt be done with this and future Mountain lions we are having an respectful adult debate, I am proud of each and everyone of you.



Carry On

SNOW

Go rub a polar bears nuts.


















J/K:p

[shawn474]

POIDOG, you obviously missed my point completely.

In short, there are those of us who think that we own the earth and those of us who think we should respect and preserve it. Both are very broad statements and have numerous subcategories and extremists each way. My point is that we all need to respect and appreciate nature as a whole much, much more than we currently do. If that's spewing treehugging, granola crunching BS in your eyes then so be it.

The beauty is that we can all agree to disagree. You have those who side with your point of view and those that side with mine. It's not an argument at all and I don't intend to take that tone if that's the way anyone took it. Just offering my .02


Carry on - I am going to grill a steak for dinner.:D

[Lord Vader]

The cool thing here is that for once even though we all have differing views on what should or shouldndt be done with this and future Mountain lions we are having an respectful adult debate, I am proud of each and everyone of you.



Carry On

SNOW
I would like to introduce you to Manticore and Seigfrid & Roy, but I wouldn't fear the Tiger... I hear Roy has a nasty bite.

[hearingimpared]

There's a reason why we have this thing called "Human nature". It's a base instinct. If someone broke into your house, you'd protect yourself. If some stranger walked on your yard with your kids playing there, you'd move towards him or tell him to get off your yard.

Humans don't have instinct. We have intelligence. That is one of the things that separate us from animals. We do have a flight or fight response which is a decision based thought not instinct.


We'll keep mass-murderers/terrorists/serial killers alive, and pay for them to live and eat in jail,

There are plenty of people on death row. We have laws that if you break them, murder being the worst, the penalty is severe. Some of the mass-murderers/terrorists/serial killers are alive in prison because either the state in which the crime was committed doesn't have the death penalty or there were some mitigating circumstances. Either way they have been dealt with.



but kill any animal that does the only thing it knows to do.

Do you propose we have the same laws for animals that kill or maul humans? How about an animal prison and I don't mean a zoo.

Shall we put them on trial just because "it does the only thing it knows to do" which is kill regardless as to whether it was hungary or protecting its turf due to instinct?

[megasat16]

They are set aside for us to enjoy. Sometimes they are managed by fools who think nature will just balance itself out. Good example is near where I lived. They had a Wildlife protected Zone (Yale Forrest) where they decided to stop hunting. Well the deer population exploded, and then they were weak and sick(diseased). So the Coyotes had some easy meals for a good stretch. Now the coyote population boomed. The food population couldn't support it. Well all these educated animal rights activist were losing their cats and dogs left and right. Long story short people were brought in to harvest the over population of coyotes. Guess what the deer population exploded again. This time they gave out a managed number of permits like they used to before. Please I grew up in the country. I knew game wardens. I still talk to a biologist who hunts and fishes regularly. Lesson is be smart and kill the bad kitty;) Populations need to be managed in many areas. We have learned a lot in the last 30 years:)

I am not into this too much but what is the true definition of over population?

Who sets the number of population? It's the natural order in the wild to kill or to be killed. Coyotes will naturally starve to death or from fights among them if they have little or no source of foods. It takes times, of coz to correct the course by the nature.

I don't know but I wouldn't call a wildlife protected zone when people stick their hands or nose or thoughts into it too much. Wildlife is wildlife and natural order will take care of that and extinction and preserving is left to the mother nature.

[ben62670]

So now you are saying protect the poor kitty, but let thousands of animals die of starvation and disease? It's OK if animals go extinct on their own than have human intervention keep a healthy heard? People can do good things in nature;)

[POIDOG]

The real question to ask ourselves, is this potential lions' death any more cruel than what lies ahead? The honor of living is the right to die. This lion will accept whatever fate comes it's way. It's not hung up with with human emotions, nor expects them to save it's life, nor will it vote in the next election. People, get over this lions demise. It may not realize it went off the reservation, but it will understand it's fate ;) life is not forever on this plain. Even the cat knows that, gun or old age, it's all cruel! :eek:

[megasat16]

So now you are saying protect the poor kitty, but let thousands of animals die of starvation and disease? It's OK if animals go extinct on their own than have human intervention keep a healthy heard? People can do good things in nature;)

You are taking it a bit too far in an offensive way!

Kill the Kitty? Do not kill the Kitty? I don't know! I left it to the expert who deals with it. We as Human got to do what we got to do, are we clear about this?

Dealing with this type of thing requires, and depends on the social and political resources as much as the technical knowledge of how close we live in the nature and how much we have learn to interpret the true reason of what an animal action is and how to respond to it.

Nonetheless, all I am trying to say is that "Hopefully, someone among us, the Humans, can think outside of the box (inside the box thinking usually involves in putting the animal down) and take the correct course of action the problem".

I totally agree Human can do a lot of Good Things for nature. We just need to try harder! :)

[treitz3]

Anybody up for a fresh Cougar burger?

[ryanjoachim]

There are plenty of people on death row.


That's the problem. They're on death row for decades most of the time. If they're sentenced to death, KILL THEM. Stop wasting our money on people who deserve to die.

Now that I have sufficiently derailed the threat, I give you this thought:

Yogi Bear touched himself...a lot.

[shawn474]

POIDOG, I don't disagree with what you said above. But, isn't there an arrogance to think that our lives are any more important? On a fundamental level (i realize it's completely simplified), I don't see a difference. What exactly lies ahead? Are you hypothesizing that this lion will attack again? That it will stalk the next hiker and do the same to a human? I don't get it, I guess.

The basic premise of my argument is that I see no problem with what the lion did - it was in his habitat and it was instinct. Does this mean I believe that lion's life is more important than a human's? Absolutely not. However, does this mean I think we should track and shoot it? Hell no. If it happened in a residential area, unprovoked then I'd be the first guy arranging the search party.

Not saying this happened here, but the real beauty is listening to anothers viewpoint and actually processing it without bringing into question education, intelligence, life experiences, morals, etc. Understand that there is such a thing as Agreeing to disagree. That's ok and healthy.

[ben62670]

Shawn instinct tells the lion to avoid human contact(a man, a woman, and a dog;)). If it attacked without being cornered or provoked there is an issue. Once they attack they are much more likey to attack again.

[hearingimpared]

Carry on - I am going to grill a steak for dinner.:D

Mountain lion steak?:D

[treitz3]

Dibs on the ribs! :D

[ben62670]

I'll be right back. I think I spotted a Chickadee foaming at the mouth. If ones got issues they most likely all have issues. I knew I should have stocked up on another 10 cases of 12ga:mad:

[megasat16]

Oh! I missed one very important thing to say ~

A Big Kudos to the dog for it's bravery and heroic act to save it's owner's Life!

Dogs are indeed man best friends. But yet, some men had abandoned them coz they think the dogs becoming unnecessary burden or other causes. There are human's best friends being put down in the shelters across U.S for many reasons - population control in the shelters, unfit for adoptions, too old or incurable diseases.

Guys, if you think about getting / adopting a cat or a dog, please go to your local human society first and see there is something you can adopt (even puppies or kittens). :)

[inspiredsports]

It's no mountain lion, but: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,284635,00.html

The photos in this link remind me of Ben defending his chickens from the possum!

[shawn474]

Just remember to have your pets spayed or neutered (in my best Bob Barker impression).:D

[inspiredsports]

This thread has gotten silly. It's great to have ideals about protecting predators, but it's also unrealistic.

Everybody saying the cat is in its natural environment and following its instincts needs to remember that since day one, man (following man's instincts) has KILLED ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING THAT MAN FELT WAS A THREAT.

Thank God man's instincts, even in this politically correct world, is still to hire Park Rangers who will put down anything felt to be a threat to man.

Why aren't you bleeding heart liberals ever out there protecting man's instincts ??????

[hearingimpared]

The cool thing here is that for once even though we all have differing views on what should or shouldndt be done with this and future Mountain lions we are having an respectful adult debate, I am proud of each and everyone of you.



Carry On

SNOW

That's because none of the trolls swooped in to crap up the "respecful adult debate!"

[megasat16]

If we can only get to put trolls in the natural Trolls Protected zone far away from CP......




CP will be home away from home. :)

[ben62670]

I love you guys even if you are wrong:)

[POIDOG]

[QUOTE=shawn474;1066192]POIDOG, you obviously missed my point completely.


No I did not miss your point :) Again, you argue like a tree hugger. You can't believe that I don't except your dogma. Yet I live near these mountains and for years hiked and camped in them. I understand the local issues and do not follow some obtuse global argument that is not relevant to life here. We protect our lifes and children here from harm. We expect our government to provide the same security and protection provided to the lion.

And, hopefully finally, this is a shared habitat. Men have lived here before Christ walked the earth. People here respect the Mountain Lions right to life.
This is one of the primary reasons Cleveland National Forest was created.

[snow]

Go rub a polar bears nuts.


















J/K:p You first :D polar bears are bad asses.



REGARDS SNOW

[megasat16]

You first :D polar bears are bad asses.



REGARDS SNOW

So, would you hug a Grizzly bear instead? :D

Just asking!

[ben62670]

I think I will start off with a Panda;)

Edit: Or maybe Doro

[steveinaz]

Why aren't you bleeding heart liberals ever out there protecting man's instincts ??????

I'm a bleeding heart conservative, thank you. There's nothing political about this discussion. These things happen alot in Arizona, but usually involve bears getting too friendly with people. They are darted and moved elsewhere, why kill them? Because they're invading your favorite camp spot, a little sanctamonious isn't it? I have had 2 occasions where I had sizeable rattlesnakes in my yard; I could have stomped those heads, but what's the point? I called animal control, they picked them up and let them go in the mountains. I'm a hunter and fisherman, but I also respect wildlife and the outdoors.

[Lord Vader]

The basic premise of my argument is that I see no problem with what the lion did - it was in his habitat and it was instinct. Does this mean I believe that lion's life is more important than a human's? Absolutely not. However, does this mean I think we should track and shoot it? Hell no. If it happened in a residential area, unprovoked then I'd be the first guy arranging the search party.

Perhaps you would find something wrong in what this cat did if it was YOUR life involved? Your premise is founded upon the belief that all life is sacred and has value when the truth is that although God created all life on this planet, he gave MAN dominion over all forms of life, from the single cell to the great whales. Let there be no doubt that I believe we need to protect that which is given to us, and that the first order of business is to protect ourselves. Maybe the next time you venture outside that littlle squirel you have been tossing nuts to decides it wants to nibble on something else and attacks you. I am quite willing to bet you will kill that squirel and all his little buddies, not for shits and giggles, but to protect your family. So be it with the lion.

[shawn474]

This will be my last comment on the thread (i am sure a lot of you are happy about that :D).

Poidog, I wholeheartedly accept that you disagree with my view and am at peace with your view as well. Again we will agree to disagree. I may not live in the mountains, but i have travelled, hiked, camped, etc. in many areas of this country. I have a healthy respect for wildlife and nature; but I also have respect for my fellow man. I don't value an animals life over humans; I just believe that we all have the same right to exist here.

You throw a large blanket over those who don't have the same beliefs as you when you use terms like "obtuse global argument" and state that the issues aren't relative to life there. I am sure that some, even where you live, would argue those generalizations.

I agree that it is a shared habitat - that means there is give and take. This particular story is one small example is a microcosm of a much, much larger issue, as I am pretty sure we could all agree no matter what side of the fence we are on.

Vader, your argument is based on the misrepresentation of the facts that the lion attacked a human. That isn't the case. It attacked a dog. Would I be pissed if it was my dog? Hell yes, but I wouldn't condone hunting it down and killing it. If it attacked me or my family, that's when I agree with everything that you guys believe should be done. Do we know how far he was from the campsite? How far did he wander into the forest? No. The only thing we know is that a mountain lion attacked a dog, while a guy was on a hike after leaving a campground. Fact is it didn't and the speculation that it would have attacked a human is just that - speculation to solidify your argument.

These places (national parks and sanctuaries) exist because there are a lot of people who believe in preserving wildlife and THEIR natural habitat and way of life undisturbed by humans.

And so closes my irrelevant and unpopular .02..............;)

[ben62670]

Steve. Bears are more of a nuisance in an area like yours. Have there been any issues with bears attacking? If so were there cubs involved? Were they cornered. This is a little different I would assume. BTW you ever make those taco burgers?

[snow]

So, would you hug a Grizzly bear instead? :D

Just asking!Nope there basically the same critter and trust me on this im a firm believer in leaving them alone.

I think I will start off with a Panda;)

Edit: Or maybe Doro Good choice the panda that is, Mark wants to knee you in the nuts if I recall correctly :p




REGARDS SNOW

[steveinaz]

BTW you ever make those taco burgers?

I haven't, but I don't think we have a dinner planned for tonight--I might try it if we have everything I need...

[ben62670]

I really want to try it. It is just me and the kids here, and they won't touch it, but there is a few of us Polkies getting together this weekend.

[POIDOG]

This will be my last comment on the thread (i am sure a lot of you are happy about that :D).

Poidog, I wholeheartedly accept that you disagree with my view and am at peace with your view as well. Again we will agree to disagree. I may not live in the mountains, but i have travelled, hiked, camped, etc. in many areas of this country.


A tree hugger argument if I ever heard! And you think spouting T.J. is going to save you from an enraged starving animal :confused:

You throw a large blanket over those who don't have the same beliefs as you when you use terms like "obtuse global argument" and state that the issues aren't relative to life there. I am sure that some, even where you live, would argue those generalizations.

You still don't get do you? Global speak is your enemy, not me :rolleyes:

I agree that it is a shared habitat - that means there is give and take. This particular story is one small example is a microcosm of a much, much larger issue, as I am pretty sure we could all agree no matter what side of the fence we are on.

Fence sitting is not acceptable, take a stand man. The dog did

Vader, your argument is based on the misrepresentation of the facts that the lion attacked a human. That isn't the case. It attacked a dog.

Please reread, the dog jumped in to save his owners :p

And so closes my irrelevant and unpopular .02..............;)

Again, a tree hugger argument, your .02 is not unpopular, but does lack relevancy ;)

[snow]

This will be my last comment on the thread (i am sure a lot of you are happy about that :D).

Poidog, I wholeheartedly accept that you disagree with my view and am at peace with your view as well. Again we will agree to disagree. I may not live in the mountains, but i have travelled, hiked, camped, etc. in many areas of this country. I have a healthy respect for wildlife and nature; but I also have respect for my fellow man. I don't value an animals life over humans; I just believe that we all have the same right to exist here.

You throw a large blanket over those who don't have the same beliefs as you when you use terms like "obtuse global argument" and state that the issues aren't relative to life there. I am sure that some, even where you live, would argue those generalizations.

I agree that it is a shared habitat - that means there is give and take. This particular story is one small example is a microcosm of a much, much larger issue, as I am pretty sure we could all agree no matter what side of the fence we are on.

Vader, your argument is based on the misrepresentation of the facts that the lion attacked a human. That isn't the case. It attacked a dog. Would I be pissed if it was my dog? Hell yes, but I wouldn't condone hunting it down and killing it. If it attacked me or my family, that's when I agree with everything that you guys believe should be done. Do we know how far he was from the campsite? How far did he wander into the forest? No. The only thing we know is that a mountain lion attacked a dog, while a guy was on a hike after leaving a campground. Fact is it didn't and the speculation that it would have attacked a human is just that - speculation to solidify your argument.

And so closes my irrelevant and unpopular .02..............;)If it had attacked the dog while the dog had been all alone then I would be less concerned, the fact it did so while at least two other full size humans were present is truly cause for concern, it has shown at the very least it has no fear of humans and would attack them if it decided it wanted lunch. The fact that it is hunting so close to where many more such tasty snacks are going to be present and has no fear it has shown itself to be a clear and present danger and at least needs to be tranquilized and put in a zoo if possible and killed if not. What makes you think it has the ability to decide that hey im going to leave the little boy or girl alone that is out with there dog because there human is beyond me.



REGARDS SNOW

[shawn474]

So I lied, THIS will be my last post.


snow, how about the fact that we have allowed the hiking trails, campgrounds, etc. to invade so much on their home? It is a little of both I would say. The fact is that IF that mountain lion wanted dinner it would not have stopped at injuring the dog. It would have taken down those two humans and the dog easily if it was hunting for food. Read my previous posts and you'll understand why your last sentence is ridiculous - I've neither said or implied that.

poidog, I feel that I have established my side of the fence and artuculated it well. The global speak that you refer to may be lost on me.

The article and the way it is perceievd would have us believe that the dog sacraficed itself for its owners, much like a secret service agent jumping in front of a bullet for the president. If that's the case, I respect the sh*t out of that little pooch! If

There are many questions that remain unanswered; were there baby cubs around? was the den near? was the dog on leash or wandering yards ahead in the thick of the brush? And a hundred others that could have contributed to the circumstances. These things we will probably never know.

Don't mistake my "benefit of the doubt" attitude with siding with the mountain lion unconditionally. I just think its a knee jerk reaction to say that there is something wrong with this animal and it needs to be hunted and killed. There are many variables.

As for the rangers stating that they should put it down, I view that as a political move more than anything to appease the public that they are taking precautionary measures so as to not scare the public or detour visitors. I think it would be next to impossible to identify the cat and they knew that when they said it.

Again, the beauty of my opinion is that it is mine. While it lacks relevancy on you, it is completely relevant to me. If people disagree it won't stop me from being their friend, helping them out, etc. It isn't a character indictment or a viewing glass to one's inner soul; it is simply an opinion. And with that, I say :p :D

[ben62670]

If a mountain lion is hungry it would have found an easier target. 2 adults and a dog is not easy prey. It may have been capable of it, but the animal would not want to risk getting injured. An injured animal doesn't have someone to feed it in the wild.

[Lord Vader]

would you prefer this type of outcome shawn?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXZPrFghxt8&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Epolkaudio%2Ecom%2Fforums%2 Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D82662&feature=player_embedded

sorry to threadrob this Ricardo, but it seems appropriate in this case.

[shawn474]

yep, that's the outcome I hoped for Vader. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Thanks for the contribution; it made me laugh (although not half as much as your sarcasm).:D

[Lord Vader]

I am pleased...

[megasat16]

If a mountain lion is hungry it would have found an easier target. 2 adults and a dog is not easy prey. It may have been capable of it, but the animal would not want to risk getting injured. An injured animal doesn't have someone to feed it in the wild.

Agreed Ben! I think the lion is either desperately hungry and food is really scarce in the wild nowadays or this one is weirdo.

Resources for all wild animals and survival is seriously threatened in most of the parts of the world due to changing climate these days.

I think wild animals (such as bears) invading to the humans domains in places like Alaska is really due to foods and resources are harder to find in the wild.

Once they get use to the stuff in the trash, they simply come to find more again.

[exalted512]

Maybe some people cant read on here, but I would like to re-emphasize
""Out of nowhere, a mountain lion just charged us, attacked us. And my dog saved our lives," Morse said."

One more time "a mountain lion just charged us, attacked us."

And just in case you still dont get the point, it does NOT say "a mountain lion just charged my dog"

Kill it. Send me the meat and I'll make some steaks out of it. Then you can't complain that it was killed for no reason.
-Cody

[ben62670]

Edit: had a weak moment and was nice. Here is a happy kitty pic...

Now this is a cougar that would be worth the hunt...you cant get a bigger trophy then one that has won cougar of the year :D


http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=40070&d=1241642902

[dorokusai]

So who in this thread is a zoologist? or even better...ethologist?

[megasat16]

Are you hiring? :D I know someone who needs a job!

[snow]

So I lied, THIS will be my last post.


snow, how about the fact that we have allowed the hiking trails, campgrounds, etc. to invade so much on their home? It is a little of both I would say. The fact is that IF that mountain lion wanted dinner it would not have stopped at injuring the dog. It would have taken down those two humans and the dog easily if it was hunting for food. Read my previous posts and you'll understand why your last sentence is ridiculous - I've neither said or implied that.
Well I have no control over the hiking trails campgrounds etc and as to whether they should be there or not is a whole different argument the fact is they are there for better or worse. And I assume you think the animal wasnt hunting for food it just decided to attack the dog because it was bored? and would have gotten serious if it was really hungry?


There are many questions that remain unanswered; were there baby cubs around? was the den near? was the dog on leash or wandering yards ahead in the thick of the brush? And a hundred others that could have contributed to the circumstances. These things we will probably never know.
No we wont know nor should we care what the thinking was of the cat as it attacked, the fact is it did attack and as I mentioned earlier if it is fearless of humans there is no reason to think that it wont attack a human and in fact every reason to think it will. Mountain lions Bears etc view other animals as prey period. the only thing stopping a animal such as this is fear and fear only if it no longer has this fear as this one has shown it will attack.

As for the rangers stating that they should put it down, I view that as a political move more than anything to appease the public that they are taking precautionary measures so as to not scare the public or detour visitors. I think it would be next to impossible to identify the cat and they knew that when they said it.


That is absurd a political move? grow up! As far as them not knowing what cat it was is again ignorance on your part these cats are solitary hunters and have a hunting area that is theres and is not shared by other cats, trust me on this if they find a cat in that area it will be "THE" guilty one :D they are not like like wolves or even lions in this respect.

If you dont believe what I have said do a little reading on Mountain lions and how they act and you will see what I am saying is the truth. I have no more desire than you do to see any animal destroyed but if it is going to save other humans to do so even if we are at fault for invading there territory or not then we need to do it simple as that.



REGARDS SNOW

[shawn474]

I, sadly, am neither (although admittedly I thought I was an ethologist until i looked it up).

[shawn474]

snow, i am finished discussing. I've stated my point of view and you've stated yours. Fair enough.

[dorokusai]

No, I would like to read another 6 pages of opinion, ideas, solutions and counter-culture methods of changing mountain lion behavior...please, carry on folks.

[ben62670]

No, I would like to read another 6 pages of opinion, ideas, solutions and counter-culture methods of changing mountain lion behavior...please, carry on folks.

I was getting tired, but yes sir.

[dorokusai]

:D ha!

[ben62670]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/d6F3qXo9G40&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/d6F3qXo9G40&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[snow]

So who in this thread is a zoologist? or even better...ethologist?I doubt anyone here is either but it doesnt take an ethologist to know the behavior exhibited by this particular animal is not natural to the species and that once they start seeing humans as prey they dont stop.



REGARDS SNOW

[snow]

No, I would like to read another 6 pages of opinion, ideas, solutions and counter-culture methods of changing mountain lion behavior...please, carry on folks.Sir yes Sir :D



REGARDS SNOW

[ben62670]

I can't hear the video. Is it stupid. My puter is having a glitch:(

[shawn474]

As long as we're all posting links, read up............http://nationalzoo.si.edu/ConservationAndScience/ThinkGloballyActLocally/LossOfHabitat/default.cfm


Also, in case it was misrepresented and sensationalized: http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_S_web_cougar.254e907.html If you read the article it states that the mountain lion was attacked by the dog, meaning it probably defended itself and ran away. Hence the reason no humans were injured in the so called attack.



































PS- This is meant to be sarcastic AND informative.;)

[snow]

What this thread really needs is Cesar Millan's cousin the "Cat Whisperer" :p



REGARDS SNOW

[ben62670]

I am reading a subliminal massage in the tag.
I see.
Cougar. It is what Ford in her.
The ending doesn't make sense yet...

What this thread really needs is Cesar Millan's cousin the "Cat Whisperer" :p



REGARDS SNOW

Connie Vannett The Pussy Cat Song?

[66chevyIISS]

I'm surprised you guys aren't arguing over why it's being called a Mountain Lion and not a Cougar :D

did anyone ever see this?

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/LU8DDYz68kM&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/LU8DDYz68kM&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[shawn474]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/05/state-officials-say-hoagie-the-dog-likely-provoked-the-mountain-lion.html

[ben62670]

That's next. I was waitng for it to die down... Then I was going to say Puma.

[shadowofnight]

" State wildlife officials said today that a dog involved in a battle with a mountain lion in the Cleveland National Forest was likely the aggressor and there was no evidence that the cougar had targeted the canine’s owners. "

“As far as we can tell, the dog went after the lion, and the lion turned around and attacked the dog,” said Kevin Brennan, a wildlife biologist for the department of fish and game. “There isn’t any evidence to believe there are any public safety issues. If a mountain lion attacks a human being or attempts to attack a human being, we treat that as a public safety incident, and we have to destroy the animal. That’s not what happened here.”

Cats off the hook...

[dorokusai]

I doubt anyone here is either but it doesnt take an ethologist to know the behavior exhibited by this particular animal is not natural to the species and that once they start seeing humans as prey they dont stop.



REGARDS SNOW


Oh, I'm sorry, it only takes a moron to guess about animal behavior with no real knowledge about the subject. Whew, no offense but now I can finally have a jury capable of deciding my fate.

[snow]

Oh, I'm sorry, it only takes a moron to guess about animal behavior with no real knowledge about the subject. Whew, no offense but now I can finally have a jury capable of deciding my fate. No guesses here, based on what was originally published in the original news story everything I said was well established facts. And no you will not find me accusing you of being a moron, a pain in the ass perhaps at times but certainly not a moronic one. :D



REGARDS SNOW

[ben62670]

I'll call him a moron. He has hurt my feelings, and I love him...

[tom t]

sal, cut the grass

[dorokusai]

Snow - I qouted you but didn't really care about the response. You should read more, post less.

[snow]

Snow - I qouted you but didn't really care about the response. You should read more, post less.take your own advice and STOP POSTING THEN. you have 10 times as many posts as I do here on this forum and besides you said you wanted 6 more pages of BS :D



REGARDS SNOW

[snow]

I'll call him a moron. He has hurt my feelings, and I love him...Ben you are entitled to love whoever you want but please no pics :D



REGARDS SNOW

[shawn474]

Just a question here, but by the responses in the first 6 pages, should we now euthanize the dog for displaying erratic and irrational behavior in attacking a now innocent and unassuming mountain lion who protected itself and fled the scene?

I'm just asking.......(with extreme sarcasm and irony)

[ben62670]

The dog obviously has issues. Euthanize the evil SOB and the owners. Poor kitty.

[snow]

Just a question here, but by the responses in the first 6 pages, should we now euthanize the dog for displaying erratic and irrational behavior in attacking a now innocent and unassuming mountain lion who protected itself and fled the scene?

I'm just asking.......(with extreme sarcasm and irony)I thought you were done posting? :D certainly something needs to be done with the owner for lying to officals anyhow.



REGARDS SNOW

[shawn474]

I am finished now, Case closed.

Now on to save the whales.............................:D;)

[BlueFox]

A 100 pound can easily take about anything it wants to...
-Cody


If it wanted to, my 10 lb cat could do some decent damage.

[shadowofnight]

Bad Hoagie...Bad Hoagie.....see now its gonna come out that the " Black shepard mix " description was to demonize the cat....when in reality Hoagie has a dark side. "Mix" was just a way to hide his pit bull side of the family :D

[ben62670]

I like pie. Minced meat cougar pie with extra raisins.

[POIDOG]

Sorry guys, believe what you may, But,as a dog trainer,allow me to provide some insight. Dogs only attack when hungry or threatened. I don't think he was interested in eating the kitty! :D And the articles presented are very inconclusive.

You got to ask yourself, why was the cat hanging around the bathroom? Taking back his habitat?

I bow to the moral superority of the human bashers and look forward to my camp sing-along with lions. I hope they don't eat me!:p

[tonyb]

Or is the question...why were the humans hanging around the cats bathroom??
Hmmmm....

[ben62670]

My pussy cat was scratching out on my back door
Scratched so long poor pussy got sore
Sore pussy..ooohhhh
Sore..pussy ooohhh
Just a friendly little cat

My pussy cat was sittin on the front step
Sat so long poor pussy got wet
Wet pussy...ohhhhh
Sore, wet..pussy
Just a friendly little cat

My pussy cat was playing out on the back lot
Played so long poor pussy got hot
Hot pussy..ohhhh
Sore, wet, hot...pussy..
Just a friendly little cat

My pussy cat was rocking in the rocking chair
Rocked so long he lost his hair
Bald pussy...ohhh
Sore, wet, hot, bald...pussy
Just a friendly little cat

My neighbor and I out at the clothes line
I said to my neighbor won't you look at mine
My pussy..oohhhhhh
Sore, wet, hot, bald pussy
Just a friendly little cat

My neighbor stole my kitty
But I did see
I said to my neighbor set my pussy free
Free pussy
Sore, wet, hot, bad free pussy
Just a friendly little cat
Here kitty kitty kitty kitty kitty.

[Danny Tse]

" State wildlife officials said today that a dog involved in a battle with a mountain lion in the Cleveland National Forest was likely the aggressor and there was no evidence that the cougar had targeted the canine’s owners. "

“As far as we can tell, the dog went after the lion, and the lion turned around and attacked the dog,” said Kevin Brennan, a wildlife biologist for the department of fish and game. “There isn’t any evidence to believe there are any public safety issues. If a mountain lion attacks a human being or attempts to attack a human being, we treat that as a public safety incident, and we have to destroy the animal. That’s not what happened here.”

Just saw the story on the local CBS affiliate 11pm news....nothing was mentioned about the dog being the aggressor. All I saw was the dog being stitched back together and the owner was in tears about his dog. Poor doggy.

I think what happened was the dog sniffed out the mtn. lion and the big cat acted upon its natural instinct. This is my guess and I am sticking by it.

[shawn474]

Of course there was nothing mentioned on the local news about the dog being the aggressor......what's the better story? Dog saves owners from ferocious mountain lion or vicious dog attacks mountain lion? You can't argue that the first story reported pulls at the heart strings and is a better story. It's the nature of media.

POIDOG, seriously? Inconclusive? The first articles written were vague and sensationalized. The new articles seem pretty conclusive to me. Before you were singing the praises of the wildlife "experts" making the decision to put the cat down because they know more about it than we do. Now those same experts come out with new information and you want to dispute it because you're a dog trainer?:rolleyes: Please man. All those "wildlife experts" state that there is not a public safety issue. This is a case of humans and wildlife coexisting / sharing the land (just like you supported) until it was attacked and defended itself. Some people just like to argue no matter the facts. :confused:

Dogs ONLY attack when hungry or provoked? Let's not forget that dogs compete for their territory (house, yard, attention of their owner) and will defend that to their ability. I don't see you point............then again, we are agreeing to disagree.

[shawn474]

Obviously this is something we are pretty passionate about. One last thought; when the mountain lion supposedly attacked the dog, everyone is ready to condemn it and execute it. Now that we KNOW that the dog displayed the aggression and erratic behavior, we are ready to condone it and defend the dog (who is very brave by the way).

As far as there still being a problem with a mountain lion so close to a campground; well that supports my belief that we have encroached too far. People, they were camping in the wilderness where encounters with wildlife are part of the intrigue. This was a peaceful encounter, until (by the experts statements) the dog attacked. The lion defended itself and ran away, just like it should. It didn't turn into a maneater and maul the campground.

What exactly then is the justification to say that there is something wrong with the mountain lion. That it should know better or have more fear when around humans? OK, so whats an acceptable range of distance for the wildlife. I'd like to know next time I am camping what my circle of trust is. Why don't we turn every national park, preserve and sanctuary into a zoo and fence the animals out of the areas where human contact could potentially occur. Should we dart or kill every potentially dangerous animal within a 100 yard radius just because they have the audacity to WALK so close to us? It's a joke really.

[Lord Vader]

I believe the facts are still the same as first reported. I watched the owner of the dog state that the cat came after them first, and I believe him because he was there... I believe what is really going on here is the park service is looking for a reason to not go after the cat and this is a way to do so..... Makes me wonder what kind of dirt the cat has on the rangers, compromising photos perhaps?

[snow]

Of course there was nothing mentioned on the local news about the dog being the aggressor......what's the better story? Dog saves owners from ferocious mountain lion or vicious dog attacks mountain lion? You can't argue that the first story reported pulls at the heart strings and is a better story. It's the nature of media.

POIDOG, seriously? Inconclusive? The first articles written were vague and sensationalized. The new articles seem pretty conclusive to me. Before you were singing the praises of the wildlife "experts" making the decision to put the cat down because they know more about it than we do. Now those same experts come out with new information and you want to dispute it because you're a dog trainer?:rolleyes: Please man. All those "wildlife experts" state that there is not a public safety issue. This is a case of humans and wildlife coexisting / sharing the land (just like you supported) until it was attacked and defended itself. Some people just like to argue no matter the facts. :confused:

Dogs ONLY attack when hungry or provoked? Let's not forget that dogs compete for their territory (house, yard, attention of their owner) and will defend that to their ability. I don't see you point............then again, we are agreeing to disagree. I thought you were off to save the whales or sumthin :D


Obviously this is something we are pretty passionate about. One last thought; when the mountain lion supposedly attacked the dog, everyone is ready to condemn it and execute it. Now that we KNOW that the dog displayed the aggression and erratic behavior, we are ready to condone it and defend the dog (who is very brave by the way).

As far as there still being a problem with a mountain lion so close to a campground; well that supports my belief that we have encroached too far. People, they were camping in the wilderness where encounters with wildlife are part of the intrigue. This was a peaceful encounter, until (by the experts statements) the dog attacked. The lion defended itself and ran away, just like it should. It didn't turn into a maneater and maul the campground.

What exactly then is the justification to say that there is something wrong with the mountain lion. That it should know better or have more fear when around humans? OK, so whats an acceptable range of distance for the wildlife. I'd like to know next time I am camping what my circle of trust is. Why don't we turn every national park, preserve and sanctuary into a zoo and fence the animals out of the areas where human contact could potentially occur. Should we dart or kill every potentially dangerous animal within a 100 yard radius just because they have the audacity to WALK so close to us? It's a joke really. These same experts were politcally motivated earlier according to you and now of course they are the good guys now that there not going to kill the kitty :D

I wouldndt be too worried about the circle of trust thing either because according to your own statement we have as humans have encroached too far and being a good citizen you wouldndt go camping anyways because that would make you part of the problem. As mentioned earlier read up a little bit on normal mountain lion behavior and most of your questions will be answered.



REGARDS SNOW

[shawn474]

snow, you have an uncanny ability to be antagonizing and patronizing.:p The facts are that I said that the park service intially made their statement to appease the public and make it known that they were acting; not just standing idly by. Also, I do camp, hike and enjoy the outdoors. I also understand that their is an inherent risk with doing so and take necessary precautions.

You can spin my words any way you like. Whatever floats your boat man. I just love the fact that you guys are clinging to PRELIMINARY reports that have since become unfounded. Have you considered that the owners of the dig wanted to sensationalize the story for their 15 minutes of fame? Happens all the time; I don't know for sure because I wasn't there either. But the investigators have released new FACTS to dispute the initial reports. Vader, SO now you're saying that these honorable rangers (when they were talking about hunting and killing the lion) have all of the sudden had a change of heart and turned into tree hugging conservationists who rather than kill a lion would endanger the lives of humans?! Talk about fence sitting. Believe what you will and I'll believe what I will. I'll leave it at that and bow out. Off my soapbox.............but not before i say nah-nee, nah-nee, boo-boo!!!!!:p:D

[ben62670]

Kill the bad kitty. It is better to be safe than food.

[jvc]

beware of undomesticated predatory wild animals when visiting their natural habitats.

[POIDOG]

You can spin my words any way you like. Whatever floats your boat man. I just love the fact that you guys are clinging to PRELIMINARY reports that have since become unfounded. Have you considered that the owners of the dig wanted to sensationalize the story for their 15 minutes of fame? Happens all the time; I don't know for sure because I wasn't there either. But the investigators have released new FACTS to dispute the initial reports. Vader, SO now you're saying that these honorable rangers (when they were talking about hunting and killing the lion) have all of the sudden had a change of heart and turned into tree hugging conservationists who rather than kill a lion would endanger the lives of humans?! Talk about fence sitting. Believe what you will and I'll believe what I will. I'll leave it at that and bow out. Off my soapbox.............but not before i say nah-nee, nah-nee, boo-boo!!!!!:p:D

You, sir, are truly a work of art, spinning facts to justify your perverse sense of justice. For example, the headlines for the LATimes blog uses the term "likely". Enlighten me as to when this term moved from being an opinion to a fact?

Also, I never claimed to be an expert, you did. Hey but thanks for the promotion. Your expert claimed it may be or it may not be, we don't know? Hey Conclusive enough for me. Also, you imply to be somewhat of an expert on the subject because you camp and hike. Please:rolleyes:

[ryanjoachim]

Biologist Kevin Brennan of the California Department Fish and Game, said Fish and Game officials are not searching today for the mountain lion, which was estimated to weigh about 100 pounds, because they do not consider the confrontation "a public safety situation."

"The dog had attacked the mountain lion," Brennan said today


I just wanted to point that part out to Mr. Snow (the man who refused to think that there was ANY reason for the cat to attack the dog).

Welcome to the grey world sir, black and white is dead.

[shawn474]

POIDOG, if you LIKELY read past the article title, it explains the account of the attack. If you read more closely or did more research, you LIKELY would realize that you are wrong and just have too much trouble inserting your foot into your mouth.

I claim that I hike and camp. I also claim to respect the environment. I've never once claimed to be an expert; just because I refute your opinion (and in the process prove you wrong) doesn't make me an expert on the situation. It does, however, show that I am willing to listen to both sides, gather eveidence and formulate an opinion that happens to be based on fact. You, on the other hand, chose blindly to cling onto your belief that no how, no way could possibly be skewed or wrong in any possibility. :rolleyes:

[POIDOG]

No sir, you are not willing to listen. The article claims no eyewitness, only speculation.
Ask yourself this question, if the lion provides no danger, then why was the campground shut down?

Finally Shawn, quit making up s**t about me.

[ryanjoachim]

No sir, you are not willing to listen. The article claims no eyewitness, only speculation.
Ask yourself this question, if the lion provides no danger, then why was the campground shut down?

Finally Shawn, quit making up s**t about me.

How about because the dog injured the cat? And injured animals can be dangerous?

Or they shut down the park when news of the attack first hit, and are just now getting the actual facts?

[ben62670]

Please enlighten us with ignorance:)

[McCelery]

I can't believe there's 5 pages of posts about this story. Bump!

[shadowofnight]

Just saw the story on the local CBS affiliate 11pm news....nothing was mentioned about the dog being the aggressor. All I saw was the dog being stitched back together and the owner was in tears about his dog. Poor doggy.

I think what happened was the dog sniffed out the mtn. lion and the big cat acted upon its natural instinct. This is my guess and I am sticking by it.


Your local San Francisco news is just protecting its delicate citizens from harsh reality...the LA times says it like it is....


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/05/state-officials-say-hoagie-the-dog-likely-provoked-the-mountain-lion.html

and that was only at 1:33pm yesterday.

The latest news is that the owner doesnt even know it was a mountain lion....that the authorities cant find tracks...hair...anything pointing to a lion.

" Investigators could find no cougar pawprints, no hairs, no signs of a mountain lion at all. That's odd, considering that the location was well known and this wasn't just a lion in flight, but one in a fight. Confusion between mountain lions and bobcats is pretty common among casual hikers "


So now it could have been a bobcat ( A little less dramatic then a lion...not as good of a story :rolleyes: ) .

And the other thing hot today is why in the hell was the dog not on a leash ??? If that was a protected bird or smaller mammal the dog would have easily killed it....hence the leash laws in the forrest.



" By the way, what was the dog doing off the leash to start with? That's prohibited in the forest; dogs can do a lot of harm to wildlife. No one seems to be pursuing the question -- it's more romantic when the story is about renegade cougars instead of leash laws. "




They really screwed the pooch on this story from the very beginning....they saw a possible dramatic story and ran with it....and its coming around to bite them in the ass now.

[ryanjoachim]

They really screwed the pussy* cat

*Edited for my childish sense of humor.

Over-react much?

[shadowofnight]

*Edited for my childish sense of humor.


Dont misquote me saying that kind of shit...edit your post while you still can.

[POIDOG]

" By the way, what was the dog doing off the leash to start with? That's prohibited in the forest; dogs can do a lot of harm to wildlife. No one seems to be pursuing the question -- it's more romantic when the story is about renegade cougars instead of leash laws. "

/QUOTE]

This is the reason nobody knows the truth. If the dog was off leash, the owner will be cited.

As for the lion, this is common to site them in the forest and people react to the danger. Maybe like the swine flu reaction?:confused:

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/01/27/news/state/11_06_521_26_07.txt

[POIDOG]

And for your viewing pleasure, the infamous cat fighter aka general troublemaker:

http://www.ocregister.com/video/index.php?bcpid=1127694947&bclid=1125998380&bctid=22373096001

[ben62670]

Oh yeah. Given what we were given nothing changes about what to do with an agressive cougar. If what is being said now is true the owners of the dog should be slapped and steralized.

[shawn474]

Thanks for the links. Hoggie certainly is a cute dog and his owner obviously loves him a lot.

If you can cite any part of my posts where I make something up about you, I will gladly apologize. It is not my intent to tarnish your name or spread untruths about you. That said, I do not feel I have done so.

Shawn

[POIDOG]

Shawn, thanks, let's move on.

One last post, the story after the heat cools down:

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/morse-hoggie-lion-2396461-campground-dog

[ben62670]

Shawn, thanks, let's move on.

One last post, the story after the heat cools down:

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/morse-hoggie-lion-2396461-campground-dog
Very nice.
So I would like to know who is responsible for the lie? The owner, or the media. Very very irresponsible on someone's part. If the dog went after the cat then the owner learned a valuable lesson. If the latest is true I feel for the dog and poor kitty. Like I have said all along cats don't attack randomly. The rangers responded appropriately given the info they were given.
Thanks
Ben

[ryanjoachim]

Kind of a derail, but still related.

http://www.newsregister.com/article/39319-cougar+suspected+hound+attack

This happened just a few blocks from where I live! Odd coincidence!

[snow]

I just wanted to point that part out to Mr. Snow (the man who refused to think that there was ANY reason for the cat to attack the dog).

Welcome to the grey world sir, black and white is dead.Kindly point out where I said any such thing.



REGARDS SNOW

[ryanjoachim]

Kindly point out where I said any such thing.



REGARDS SNOW

No thanks, too tired.

[snow]

Kindly point out where I said any such thing.



REGARDS SNOW

No thanks, too tired.Yup just what I thought, you know as well as I do what you said was entirely untruthful.

Everything I said regarding the incident was based on the information that was presented at the time and was not speculation but based on facts as to how Mountain lions behave.

Now that the story has changed for about the 3rd or 4th time im not really sure as to what actually did or didnt happen whether it be due to story telling on the owner of the dog or press it is truly an odd tale.

If indeed it was a mountain lion next to a bathroom that presents concern also simply due to the fact that they tend to avoid humans like the plague and if one is hanging around a campground it is unusual behavior.

If the dog attacked the mountain lion or bobcat or whatever the hell it was then of course how to properly deal with the situation changes. But based on what the story was intially I stick to my beliefs as to what should happen if indeed such an event occured.

Personally I am happy that it wasnt a mountain lion and that it didnt attack the couple and there dog for several reasons, one being the cat doesnt have to be hunted down and killed and two in the future peoples lifes arent at risk.



REGARDS SNOW

[cfrizz]

Agreed Snow. Alls well that ends well in this particular situation. Even domestic dogs & cats don't get along. I've see plenty of dogs go after cats & get clawed for their trouble. The dumbass owner of the dog should be fined for not having it leashed.

I'm glad the dog survived & the cat whether bob or mountain lion gets to live as well.

"Personally I am happy that it wasnt a mountain lion and that it didnt attack the couple and there dog for several reasons, one being the cat doesnt have to be hunted down and killed and two in the future peoples lifes arent at risk."
REGARDS SNOW

[jvc]

Consider the case of the mountain lion, or cougar, who jumped out of the woods at a park in British Columbia and took a 4 ½ year old boy named Paul Krismer, Jr., by the head.

The boy's father, Paul Krismer, happened, luckily enough, to be nearby and turned just in time to see the cat do what comes naturally.

"I heard this cracking in the bushes," Paul Senior recalled, "and I looked back and I could see this cougar leaping at Paul and just getting his jaws set on Paul's head. Then they fell to the ground together."

The distraught father, who was about 20 yards away, rushed to the scene of the attack, without any weapon in hand and, instead, used his feet. He jumped on top of the cat with both of them.

"I just leaped off a log which was at a height over the two of them," he stated, "and came down very forcefully on the cougar's chest with both feet."

The mountain lion was so befuddled by the brazen attack of the father that it released the youthful Paul from its generally vicious grip and fled back into the wild, where, no doubt, it was accustomed to meeting less formidable adversaries than Paul Junior's dad.

What did the boy recall of the life-threatening crisis?

"He thinks it's a bad cat that made a bad choice," his dad said. "I honestly don't think he has a whole lot of sense about his own mortality." The dad went on to say his son is living the life of a typical 4-year-old. "You wipe out on your bike one day and a cougar attacks you the next. Then you fall off the swings the day after that. It's just another thing that happens."