CD Player Advice or stay with PS3

[thsmith]

I am using my PS3 60G as my CD player amoung other things. I have added a PS Audio DLIII DAC for 2 channel out of the PS3.

The external DAC was a huge improvement over the my Denon 2808 AVR's DAC.

I was totally happy again with CDs until I played an Album. My TT is just a mid 70s Technics SL-1300 with Denon DL-160 cart and Cambridge Audio 640P phono stage.

I am now starting to wonder if I went to a stand alone CDP if I would find a step up in SQ.

The PS3 with the PS Audio DAC was a huge improvement but is my PS3 holding me back ?

So, looking for recommendation as a starting point on used or new CDP with digital out that would or might have better SQ than the PS3 ?

I could easily live with current set up but if I could make a very nice improvement in the $400 or less range I might do it.

I have Analysis Plus Toslink cable out of PS3 to DAC and Ben's silver ICs from DAC to AVR with Ben's Silver ICs to Carver TFM-45 to AQ Tpye 3 cables to SDA-1Cs. DAC has upgraded power cable that I picked up from George this week.

Thanks in advance,

Tracy

[Erik Tracy]

Hmmmm...what exactly are you disappointed with in your PS3/DAC combo compared to your TT/Pre?

Could be that you have simply stumbled into the realization that Vinyl sounds better???? :D

Using the PS3 as the digital transport with a good DAC seems like a workable pairing for some good sound.

Could be that your AVR is what is holding you back - but if you like the sound from your TT/Pre (thru the AVR), then maybe instead you need to take a big step up with a higher end external DAC?

Just stirring the pot....

[Pedler]

Hmmmm...what exactly are you disappointed with in your PS3/DAC combo compared to your TT/Pre?

Could be that you have simply stumbled into the realization that Vinyl sounds better???? :D

Using the PS3 as the digital transport with a good DAC seems like a workable pairing for some good sound.

Could be that your AVR is what is holding you back - but if you like the sound from your TT/Pre (thru the AVR), then maybe instead you need to take a big step up with a higher end external DAC?

Just stirring the pot....


Vinyl Sounds Better!! ( Nothing more to say!!!:D)

How much more do you have to spend in dac etc to get the vinyl sound quality?? what are the recomendations ? out of curiosity???
remember there are cd player makers that are advertising the Vinyl sound and are chargeing a pretty penny to do it.

Remember SACD.. maybe Blueray audio will be the new Vinyl.:eek:

I am adding more Gasoline to the current fire by the way.:D:D:D

[danz1906]

Tracy,

A better transport will get you a more Musical sound.
But nothing sounds like Vinyl-But Vinyl:D

[thsmith]

Well, I took a fairly new Boston Boston 180G record and a standard Boston Boston CD and did a blind test with my wife, son and his GF.

Pretty quickly they all said CD sounded better to them.

That made me happy at first then I figured what the hell to they know about great sounding music.

Don't get me wrong the PS3 with the DAC was a huge step up over PS3 and AVR. It just feels like something is missing and I can not put my finger on it.

Maybe I just need to spend more time with the DAC and is easy to do and I do love the sound. The question that keeps haunting me is a standalone CDP going to sound better than the PS3.

A friend has a Nakamichi CD player I can borrow but it is an older model with analog outs only.

I need to keep listening and researching.

[cnh]

Not sure what to say. As you know you can spend upwards of 10k on a CDP! Considering the fact that a redbook CD has finite digital properties...I'm not convinced that the search for the HOLY GRAIL in DACs is necessary past a certain point. But there are Pricey items out there...that you can take a listen to...to me, the little I've heard, it's like a law of dimishing returns. We should probably get some input here from the boys with the hybrid tube CDPs--they might have some words of wisdom and hope for you.

cnh

[Ern Dog]

If it were me, I'd get a dedicated cdp.

[cfrizz]

:rolleyes: 3 people all said the same thing, so naturally they didn't hear what they heard or know what they are talking about.:rolleyes:

Sounds to me like you are simply trying to justify the reason to spend more money.

Just have the guts to admit you want to spend more money on something that you probably don't need & really can't tell the difference if you heard it, rather than justifying it by saying others don't hear great sound when they hear it!

Pretty quickly they all said CD sounded better to them.

That made me happy at first then I figured what the hell to they know about great sounding music.

[thsmith]

:rolleyes: 3 people all said the same thing, so naturally they didn't hear what they heard or know what they are talking about.:rolleyes:

Sounds to me like you are simply trying to justify the reason to spend more money.

Just have the guts to admit you want to spend more money on something that you probably don't need & really can't tell the difference if you heard it, rather than justifying it by saying others don't hear great sound when they hear it!

I suspect your right Connie. Well founded perspective. Dang !

[Conradicles]

Just have the guts to admit you want to spend more money on something that you probably don't need & really can't tell the difference if you heard it, rather than justifying it by saying others don't hear great sound when they hear it!

That hurts...but can be true.

The great thing about this hobby is that all gear is inter-changeable.
Nothing wrong with change.;)

I am a fan of having 2 different rigs: A H/T rig and a totally separate 2-channel rig.

Try a new CD Player if you are not happy thsmith.

One thing we all must try to avoid is getting TOO wrapped up in what is wrong with our gear, and not enjoying the music.:)







:p

[leroyjr1]

First thing you might want to do is get a nice pre amp for 2 channel. It'll sound better than your AVR.

[dragon1952]

People that don't critically listen to music can very well not know what they are talking about. Besides, it takes more than a few minutes of listening to hear stuff that could lead to listener fatigue, etc. To untrained listeners, the brighter sound will typically sound better at first.

[thsmith]

First thing you might want to do is get a nice pre amp for 2 channel. It'll sound better than your AVR.

I use my AVR as a pre for 2 channel feeding my Carver TFM-45.

[thsmith]

That hurts...but can be true.

The great thing about this hobby is that all gear is inter-changeable.
Nothing wrong with change.;)

I am a fan of having 2 different rigs: A H/T rig and a totally separate 2-channel rig.

Try a new CD Player if you are not happy thsmith.

One thing we all must try to avoid is getting TOO wrapped up in what is wrong with our gear, and not enjoying the music.:)

:p

I just had an offer accepted on audioGon for a Rotel 1072.

If I cant tell a difference between it and the PS3 then it will be listed here for sale.

[Sherardp]

Go for the new Oppp BD player as it will play everything under the sun, to include an occassional Blu Ray movie.

[cfrizz]

The name is Cathy:) Congrats on the Rotel 1072. I have one myself and enjoy it. Mine is hooked up with ICs. My only digital connection is my DVD player.

I suspect your right Connie. Well founded perspective. Dang !

[Ern Dog]

I just had an offer accepted on audioGon for a Rotel 1072.

If I cant tell a difference between it and the PS3 then it will be listed here for sale.

Nice move. This is the best way of knowing for sure. Opinions don't mean squat in this hobby. The bottom line is how it sounds to your ears.

[Keiko]

The name is Cathy:) Congrats on the Rotel 1072. I have one myself and enjoy it. Mine is hooked up with ICs. My only digital connection is my DVD player.

Connie Frizz has a nice ring to it though. :D

I prefer the sound of vinyl to CD thsmith. SACD of course is the ultimate IMO. Unfortunately titles for Super Audio are few and far between. I improvise with vinyl and transfer a lot to CD. It's an effort to retain some of that warm analog sound on the convenience of a CD. So many factory redbooks sound like utter crap. I hope the new CD player works out for you, but keep in mind. The better your gear, the worse some of those bad recordings are going to sound.

[thsmith]

The name is Cathy:) Congrats on the Rotel 1072. I have one myself and enjoy it. Mine is hooked up with ICs. My only digital connection is my DVD player.

Sorry Cathy. With the 1072 my PS3 will be my only digital connection for BR, SACD and Media streaming off my computer. Which I could still stream music off my computer to PS3 using optical to DAC and 1072 coax to DAC.

Connie Frizz has a nice ring to it though. :D

I prefer the sound of vinyl to CD thsmith. SACD of course is the ultimate IMO. Unfortunately titles for Super Audio are few and far between. I improvise with vinyl and transfer a lot to CD. It's an effort to retain some of that warm analog sound on the convenience of a CD. So many factory redbooks sound like utter crap. I hope the new CD player works out for you, but keep in mind. The better your gear, the worse some of those bad recordings are going to sound.

Keiko, my gear is definately improving and you may have hit the nail on the head.

I take it you have a POM ? My wife has one and she is the boss around here and has the attitude to go with it.

[Keiko]

6 Poms a Papillon and 2 Pomillons. Papiranians if you prefer. :o

[olilugo]

I was on my way to add a dedicated CD player to my system, and my choices were Rotel 1072, Emotiva ERC-1 and Cambrige 640.
Then I found that I can use a usb flash drive and fill it up with a bunch of songs using FLAC format and use my pioneer SC-07 AVR to play music.
I have to say having a separate CD player is not at the top of my list anymore.
However I also wonder ... I identify with you when you say I feel something is missing.
I also feel that way ... in my case is speakers.
I am putting a list together to do some research but I am starting to wounder is I am hitting the limits on my speakers.
Let us know your impressions of the rotel. I think is the best cd player in the 2K and less category.
I know it only cost 700.00 new but I think it competes with cd players that cost 2000.
Again just my opinion.

[Pedler]

The CD player should sound better than the PS3 but I stoped using my cd player (HK bought in 2001) because the PS3 was better than it.

I am begining to think the USB /Computer based systems may be better. You can get all the data off the CD and play it to an external DAC of high quality.
and you already have a DAC.

What I find is Vinyl sounds better because it feels more intimate.( Some may disagree I don't want to start any arguements) But it also depends on the quality of the recording just like cds. Some have good quality and some are compressed sounding.

P.S. Just because the record is 180G doesn't mean it was recorded properly.
The 180G is better quality material but the transfer may not be as good. When you did the blind test are you sure the needles are not old/worn. and did they perfer the recording because they didn't hear the clicks and pops from dust? ( I would like to belive the Boston LP is of the good quality due to this was their first album so I guess I am wondering if your needle is worn)

I have listened to a few 180g pressings from friends who are really into vinyl and they say sometimes they perfer the original release. It is better because the 180g re-release is based off the analog tape masters, and as we know from VHS the quality degrades over the years. Then you have some that Perfer CD.

I don't care what version it is as long as it sounds good.
Maybe some more experianced members can better explain it.:D

I guess I have more questions than answers for you.

[thsmith]

The Denon 160 cart has about 50 hours on and sounds great. Personally I beginning to think it is in my head.

I have been listening to some SACD 2 channel and the CD version on the SACD which sound great running through the DAC. I think the PS3 post process the SACDs and that is why the DAC can handle it.

ANother thing is my SIlver ICs do not have a lot of hours on them which could be affecting the sound. Although today I am happy with how the CDs are sounding.

If nothing else I think the Rotel is a good enough CD player and will resolve the mind trick I may be having that the PS3 could be a better CD player.

As Cathy said maybe I just need an excuse to spend money but if the PS3 sounds as good as the Rotel then I will sell the Rotel. Although the PS3 uses toslink and the Rotel used coax, so not exactly an apples to apples comparision. Since tomorrow is my birthday it is a present to myself.

[dragon1952]

In an all solid-state system, you might try A/B'ing some copper IC's between the DAC and the AVR also.

[Pedler]

The Denon 160 cart has about 50 hours on and sounds great. Personally I beginning to think it is in my head.

I have been listening to some SACD 2 channel and the CD version on the SACD which sound great running through the DAC. I think the PS3 post process the SACDs and that is why the DAC can handle it.

ANother thing is my SIlver ICs do not have a lot of hours on them which could be affecting the sound. Although today I am happy with how the CDs are sounding.

If nothing else I think the Rotel is a good enough CD player and will resolve the mind trick I may be having that the PS3 could be a better CD player.

As Cathy said maybe I just need an excuse to spend money but if the PS3 sounds as good as the Rotel then I will sell the Rotel. Although the PS3 uses toslink and the Rotel used coax, so not exactly an apples to apples comparision. Since tomorrow is my birthday it is a present to myself.

I can't agree with you more Like i said it was a shock to think the PS3 sounded better than my dedicated cd player.. I never tried a DAC on it though. (P.S. I LOVE MY PS3 :D:D:D) I have the 80gig version.

I was thinking of trying the computer route. (I like the convienance)

Let us/me know how the test goes with the rotel. P.S. Happy Pre- Birthday.

[Pedler]

thsmith I found this interview from Tom Scholz

"Okay. So why is analog the better listening experience?
Well, I'm spoiled rotten because I only hear two kinds of music: live and all-analog. When I have to deal with digital because of CD mastering, I don't like it that much. Even in 24-bit, I'm sorry; it's not as good as analog.

How come? Digital sounds a lot different than the original source. Things are further compromised when you decrease the resolution to 16 bits from 24 bits or higher. The combinations of only 16-bit resolution and only a 44.1-kHz sampling rate absolutely demolishes any part of the signal above 10k. If you put a 12k tone, which most people can hear, through a 16-bit, 44.1k sampling at digital conversion, you will be shocked at what that waveform looks like coming out the other end. You can put a pure tone in, and it comes out looking like some garbled, monstrous thing. If that came off a cassette, you'd say, "See why cassettes sound terrible?" Take it a step further to MP3s, where that 16-bit signal is further demolished. It's already terrible, and compressed in unnatural ways.

And if you changed the frequency of that 12-kHz signal just a percentage point, the signal that spits out will look entirely different. So every time somebody hits an "s" or a cymbal, or plays a delicate violin or even a raunchy distorted guitar with lots of high frequencies, the high-frequency end of that spectrum is completely mangled into something different. That's why people speak about strange sibilance, or things sticking out or not sounding "right," when they listen to CDs. It isn't right. It's completely different than the original recording.

That's the technical root of the problem. If I can get a little more "earthy" here for a minute, music is an analog phenomenon. It results from analog devices. Wood and metal vibrations force the air to send out compression waves at the speed of sound to your eardrum — which is also very analog, and which sends signals to your brain. The whole process is a completely analog phenomenon. There are no numbers or bits involved with it anywhere. The idea of trying to encode that into some kind of mathematical thing and then reassemble it is a great idea, but it would have to be done with a lot more care.

The big thing to me still is that A/D conversion. I have never have had anybody explain to me why they can't develop a technology to get rid of the phasing and the distortion. It annoys me, and it's bizarre to me that technical people put up with the alteration. If you look at the waveform, it doesn't even look like the same thing. Maybe more so for me, because I used to use the old analog oscilloscopes and I used to measure things like headroom. You get an exact picture, and you could a copy from one track to the next. You may get a tiny bit of rounding from slew-rate limitations, but that waveform looks virtually identical to the first one. Your copy bounces from track to track.

So, to sum up, digital is a risky place to go. When they eventually come up with the world's first transporter that breaks you down into a set of numbers and reassembles your matter someplace else — well, I'd be really careful about that. [chuckles] " interview by Mike Mettler


Just thought you might find it interesting.

[thsmith]

Pedler, interesing indeed.

Received the Rotel today but I ordered the wrong digital cable, had F connectors. I had to settle on a Radio Shack Monster cable digitial coax cable. Normally $29 on sale for $7 and it was the best they had.

I should have my replacement late next week.

While it is not a fair comparsion because the PS3 is using a pretty darn good Toslink I could tell a difference between the Rotel and the PS3 as a CD transport.

Prelim observations is the Rotel is warmer which I figure is the M cable. But the seperation and detail is better than the PS3. I always felt like the PS3 sound kinda walked across the speakers not defined and I to sit exactly in the sweet spot and angle my head to get a fairly balanced sound but not with the rotel.

BTW, I am using the PS Audio DAC for both. I have not tried the Rotel DAC yet.

Once I get a better Digital coax I will be able to provide a better observation but so far I am pleased with the Rotel or the PS3.

[thsmith]

I called a local HT shop to see if they had any Audio Digital Coax cables. AdvancedHomeTheater in Plano had some Kimber Kable D-60s that they let me take home and demo.

HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE:D:eek::D:cool:;):DHEH EHEHEHEHEHEHE!

I can demo them for 2 weeks but I think they are mine at this point.

A pricey cable but what diffence in the sound of my CDs now.

Their retail price is better than I can find online and if I want the demo cable I end up paying 60% of their retail price.

[Pedler]

That is great/good news. I assume you are liking what you are hearing from the CD player.
Demo's are always nice.

[thsmith]

SO far I am the happiest I have ever been with CDs. The Rotel CDP and KK d-60 cable smash the PS3 in SQ.

[Ern Dog]

Awesome news! I'm also curious about how the Rotel sound w/out the DAC vs. with the DAC.

[cfrizz]

Congrats. Always trust your ears. I would be interested to see if you hear a difference without the dac in the middle.

I would also be interested if your wife, son and his GF can hear a difference with the Rotel. Especially if you switch back & forth between the 2.

Never miss an opportunity to educate newbies to good sound!

[thsmith]

Kathy I have a friend coming by tomorrow that is into vinyl a lot more than I am, he never got out of vinyl. I want to do a blind test with his ears.

I did have a chance today to A/B the Rotel/DAC and Phono using Poco Legend MFSL album and a standard CD.

So far the biggest difference is the with Phono the bass seems a bit bloated were as the CD had tighter bass. The Phono has a bit warmer vocals.

I love the sound of both now they just have slight differences.

The KK D-60 is an amazing cable as well as the Rotel CDP. I looked on Audiogon for D-60 cables and 2 were sold this month, one for $150 and one for $200. The $150 one was a steal.

I highly recommend this cable.

I will be trying the Rotel without the PS Audio DAC but that may take some time and will be a lot harder to A/B. I am focused on installing some Mye spikes on the 1Cs that came today.

[daboyz]

I go analog with MIT T2 IC's from my pre when I want to get the serious listen on but I also have the same digital cable as you going between the cdp and my AVR. There is a very noticable difference in SQ.

Going from the pre is much better than the AVR.

Congrats on the Rotel,very good choice.

[thsmith]

I go analog with MIT T2 IC's from my pre when I want to get the serious listen on but I also have the same digital cable as you going between the cdp and my AVR. There is a very noticable difference in SQ.

Going from the pre is much better than the AVR.

Congrats on the Rotel,very good choice.

Yeah I have heard this from others but right now I do not have the room and money.