Shun Mook. Interesting topic. Truth or Lie

[Bernal]

Shun Mook Explained
The general reaction of Hi Fi users is to regard Shun Mook as a black magic or voodoo - or perhaps psychoacoustics and imagination. The belief of traditional science is what is known is known and must be proven by theory and formulae. Yet there are some many things that science still does not understand and cannot explain.

Shun Mook is not black magic but very simple physics. Sympathetic resonance is the main principal behind it. As in high school you have experimented with tuning forks. Strike one fork of the same frequency and bring it next to a same fork the stationary one will start to react without even touching it.
Sound as we know it is movement of air, but the quality of this movement is the result of resonance of the material providing this vibration. Different material gives out a difference resonance character. For example steel, glass, marble, wood all has their resonance signature.

A musical instrument produces resonance - vibration of air - to give us different pitches and frequencies of sound, the inherent cellular resonance produces the type of sound produced. Strings - from a box of wood of various sizes and shape. Woodwind - from sections of tubes with holes in varies positions. Brass - by forcing of air through this expanding metal tube. Percussion - the beating of skin on frames of wood etc etc.
All these are the result of resonance of the material at the cellular level producing music, as we know it.
Shun Mook is made from Mpingo ebony wood. Mpingo - in Africa means tree that sings. Ebony wood has the most musical properties in its resonance characteristics or else the string instruments will not be using them as fingerboards, the wood winds will not use it as it body.

Looking at a section of the wood it consists of thousands of tubes, or its cellular structure is like a micro-sized pipe organ. When energy makes contact with this material it creates multiple vibrations of the most complexity within its body. A string vibrating upon this wood thus give out a complex but musical resonance to the human ear. On the other hand a plastic fingerboard on a string instrument will create another pattern, but a pattern of a not so musical sound.

The Shun Mook disc is like a musical instrument, receiving sound energy from the speaker and then being excited, resonates and releases a sympathetic resonance of
a musical character to its surrounding. Our invention is making a disc that will resonate at an enhanced rate with the effect of masking the non-musical frequencies and harmonics while amplifying the purer musical spectrum. It is acting like a mirror in a sense that it will energise, absorb, resonate and radiate to its surroundings.
Earlier you mention most tuning devices aims to cancel or absorb resonance, these are actually resonance from non-musical materials, like steel, brass, lead, glass, marble, granite, plastic, rubber, MDF wood, etc. The resonance’s from these materials are damaging to sound produced by the loudspeaker and therefore have to be controlled.
Energy cannot be destroyed, that is a given in physics, so many attempts were to dampen, absorb and isolated the vibrations from these material cannot cure the fundamental problem. You think the rubber feet at the base of the amplifier dampens the vibration, yet it only stores the energy for the moment and delay a release back to the system as a negative feed back. That’s why air bags and pressurised air suspensions does not work well due to the time delay feed back of the negative energy (non-musical). Heavy composite of steel, lead and plastic also just delays the bad resonance and smear up the signal later on.

With Shun Mook we channel away the bad energy, as it cannot be destroyed. Just as you cannot stop a flood with a wall you have to dig a canal to divert it. In this case we use our diamond tipped resonators. The diamond can transfer away the vibration instantly while the ebony wood body acts like a reservoir for the musical energy to be amplified within its body.
Hence this musical energy is feed back into the system while the diamond acts like a mechanical diode - one way out.

Of course we hold some trade secrets as how to enhance this wood and determine the maximum direction of flow energy in a piece of ebony. Anyone can make an ebony disc with real ebony. In fact ten years ago when our disc first hit the market in Hong Kong, within a few hours it was dissected by some copy cat who did try and make some disc of their own but of course was never successful. All they have are some dud-discs - not alive.

A simple test by yourself or your clients is to hold the disc on ones palm and feel the weight. Flip the disc over and weigh it the other way, you will feel as though one way is heavier then the other way. Why? There is an energy flowing out from your palm and the disc is enhancing it. The energy from your palm is the aura of the human body; it differs from person to person. For a male it comes out of your left hand and flow towards your right hand, while for a female its the other way around. The disc is not as simple as it looks and there is a complex process involved in the making of it.

We also make a record clamp that if you have the opportunity to ask Martin to let you hold it, the energy enhancement level is extraordinary

I hope this explains a little bit about how and why Shun Mook works. Most humans have very acute senses and therefore can pickup the changes in a Hi Fi system. Those who cannot hear the difference need not go further with Shun Mook and save themselves a pocket full of money.
----------------------
1) DENON AVR-4308CI: Advanced 7.1 CH/5.1+2 CH/ 3.1+2+2 CH A/V Home Theater /MultiMedia Multi-Source/Zone Receiver with Networking and WiFi/170 watts x 7 channels
2) SUNFIRE Grand Signature - Bob Carver's
3) OPPO DV-980H 1080p Up-Converting Universal DVD Player with HDMI and 7.1CH Audio
4) DENON DVD-2500BTCI: Blu-ray Disc™ DVD/CD Digital Player/Transport (change for a OPPO BDP-83 Blu-ray Disc Player will be available soon)
5) HITACHI P55T501. 55" HD1080 Plasma HDTV
6) POLKAUDIO LSiC (Center speaker)
7) POLKAUDIO LSi15 LEFT (Front speaker)
8) POLKAUDIO LSi15 RIGHT (Front speaker)
9) POLKAUDIO LSif/x LEFT (Surround speaker)
10) POLKAUDIO LSif/x RIGHT (Surround speaker)
11) SONY SA-WP16 ( Sub Woofer 2X200W)

[Resiroth]

I'm sorry but this reeks of expensive speaker wire. By far the biggest difference is the placebo effect. Make sure you do blind tests to try and differentiate the shun mook stuff. I'm still surprised that people will swear by expensive speaker wire when in double blind tests no one can tell the difference between generic and expensive wire as long as the copper is thick enough and you're not by a giant power plant.

I'm not sure about what your examples are trying to prove.
"With Shun Mook we channel away the bad energy, as it cannot be destroyed. Just as you cannot stop a flood with a wall you have to dig a canal to divert it."
On the contrary a wall can definitely stop a flood.

"There is an energy flowing out from your palm and the disc is enhancing it"
I'm not sure about other polk owners but I'm not going to kid myself. I do not have the ability to direct energy like iron man. If this was true these things would sell like hotcakes! Imagine the weight loss! Sorry I couldn't resist.

[artinaz]

I was nodding along till I hit this part- "The energy from your palm is the aura of the human body; it differs from person to person. ..."

If they had left that part out, it would be more believable.

Question- if it really works, could'nt u just run a frequency sweep with and without it ?

Azi

[Resiroth]

That's the issue though, it doesn't work. It's even less respectable than the 4,000 dollar amplifiers people delude themselves into hearing massive differences. Amplifiers at least theoretically do make a difference ( although I'd like to see someone in a double blind test differentiate between an 800 dollar amp and a 4000 dollar amp ). If anything shun mook has the potential to make things worse. Chances are cleaning your ears thoroughly makes more of a difference =).

[BlueFox]

Shun mook is only effective if the speaker feng shui is aligned with magnetic north. In other configurations it has a deleterious effect. :rolleyes:

[lightman1]

Can I order a purple one? Purple is pretty.

[nooshinjohn]

Shun mook... this sounds more like a line from a bad gangster film...."Shun da mook!" "Shun him!" as they all turn their backs on him as they push his concrete laden shoes into the east river.. and that is where this garbage needs to go as well.

[F1nut]

Bernal, if you are quoting from some source, please use the quote feature otherwise it appears that you are selling the products yourself. You aren't, are you?

As for blind tests, they are completely worthless.


Now back to the question of the blinded testing. Here is what the now publisher (Robert Harley) of one of the major magazines wrote a few years ago....


Quote:
Blind tests nearly universally appear to indicate that no differences exist between electronics, cables, capacitors, etc. In fact, one infamous test "revealed" that no sonic differences exist between power amplifiers. Mark Levinson, NYAL Futterman OTL tube monoblock, NAD, Hafler, and Counterpoint power amplifiers were all judged to be sonically identical to each other and to a $219 Japanese receiver (footnote 7). This very test, wielded by the objectivists as proof that all amplifiers sound alike, in fact calls into question the entire blind methodology because of the conclusion's absurdity. Who really believes that a pair of Futterman OTL tube amplifiers, a Mark Levinson, and a Japanese receiver are sonically identical? Rather than bolster the objectivist's case, the "all amplifiers sound the same" conclusion of this blind test in fact discredits the very methodology on which hangs the objectivist's entire belief structure.

If differences do exist between components, why don't blind tests conclusively establish the audibility of these differences? I believe that blind listening tests, rather than moving us toward the truth, actually lead us away from reality.

First, the preponderance of blind tests have been conducted by "objectivists" who arrange the tests in such a way that audible differences are more difficult to detect. Rapid switching between components, for example, will always make differences harder to hear. A component's subtleties are not revealed in a few seconds or minutes, but slowly over the course of days or weeks. When reviewing a product, I find that I don't really get to know it until after several weeks of daily listening. Toward the end of the review process, I am still learning aspects of the product's character. Furthermore, the stress of the situation—usually an unfamiliar environment (both music and playback system), adversarial relationship between tester and listener, and the prospect of being ridiculed—imposes an artificiality on the process that reduces one's sensitivity to musical nuances.

Going beyond the nuts and bolts of blind listening tests, I believe they are fundamentally flawed in that they seek to turn an emotional experience—listening to music—into an intellectual exercise. It is well documented that musical perception takes place in the right half of the brain and analytical reasoning in the left half. This process can be observed through PET (Positron-Emission Tomography) scans in which subjects listening to music exhibit increased right-brain metabolism. Those with musical training show activity in both halves of the brain, fluctuating constantly as the music is simultaneously experienced and analyzed. Forcing the brain into an unnatural condition (one that doesn't occur during normal music listening) during blind testing violates a sacrosanct law of science: change only one variable at a time. By introducing another variable—the way the brain processes music—blind listening tests are rendered worthless.

[nooshinjohn]

Blind tests nearly universally appear to indicate that no differences exist between electronics, cables, capacitors, etc. In fact, one infamous test "revealed" that no sonic differences exist between power amplifiers. Mark Levinson, NYAL Futterman OTL tube monoblock, NAD, Hafler, and Counterpoint power amplifiers were all judged to be sonically identical to each other and to a $219 Japanese receiver (footnote 7).

This is total garbage... I have never in my life experienced such a DRAMATIC difference in performance, clarity and presence as I did when I first plugged in my old Carver TFM-35 into my yamaha preouts. I was so taken aback by the sound that I quickly stepped up and got my Sunfire to run all channels and bypassed the amp section of my reciever completely.

[Face]

I'm still surprised that people will swear by expensive speaker wire when in double blind tests no one can tell the difference between generic and expensive wire as long as the copper is thick enough and you're not by a giant power plant.
You couldn't be more wrong.

[lightman1]

I'll get the popcorn..anybody need anything while I'm in the kitchen?......

[nooshinjohn]

I'll get the popcorn..anybody need anything while I'm in the kitchen?......

how about a slice of that Apple pie ala-mode you have been promising me?:)

[F1nut]

Yummy....pie!

[wutadumsn23]

Mmmmm, I like pie. Hopefully this doesn't turn into another one of those threads, lol.

[Resiroth]

You really think that 1000 dollar a foot wire makes a difference over 12 gauge speaker wire? For subwoofers it makes a bit more difference but on many hi end systems we've tried out different expensive speaker wires and not noticed a difference. Maybe we're just crazy. Then again these speakers were only 2-4,000 dollars.

As for blind tests being worthless I'm not so sure. Keep in mind I have no weird agenda like the objectivists. All I care about is great sound without spending extra on things I would not notice. Then again, I don't drive my speakers at very high volumes so perhaps distortion is increased more noticeably at that point.

Robert Harley states that for improvements to be noticeable it takes weeks and yet many people who announce they just spent 4,000 on an amplifier laud the immediate improvement that this new toy made. Certainly the more expensive amplifiers are of higher quality. Whether or not people can tell the difference is another story. Another issue is that I doubt many people ( although I am sure some do ) have a dedicated room solely for the purpose of pristine sound production. Room acoustics can easily lessen the impact of improved speakers.

I googled Robert Harley and on the first page of google results, 4th from the top, was a monster article on him. That to say the least is not helpful for his image as an authority on sound. If you stand by monster's HDMI cables there is simply no hope.

Let's assume that it does take weeks to truly appreciate the small differences. If it takes weeks to notice the difference why spend the extra 3 grand on it? Maybe I'm not as hardcore about audio as other people here but that just seems silly when I'm sure that money could be better put to use for another project.

The placebo effect has reversed the growth of tumors, I'm sure it's not a stretch to say it could make someone hear a slight improvement if he thought he just spent 10k on cables.

Maybe I'm weird but if I'm spending thousands of dollars on something I want the improvement to be easily noticed ( like the difference between 128kbps and flac ). For me at least, I doubt I would notice the improvement of thousand dollar cable or shun mook. If you guys feel like your purchases are worth it that is all that matters.

[F1nut]

You really think that 1000 dollar a foot wire makes a difference over 12 gauge speaker wire?

I know it does. YMMV. :)

[Resiroth]

What's your listening environment? I've heard several 2-4 thousand speakers in normal rooms and didn't notice a difference. I'm assuming you've got 20k+ speakers and a specially treated room? You should try to take the skeptics up on their many offers. there are multiple ones giving 15k+ to differentiate between generic ( low gauge ) and high end cables.

I know for a fact that cables in retail stores have the highest markup often in the whole store. This is for monster etc. ( which I actually use since I got the wire free from some guy selling speakers ) and not for the even more expensive brands. I know people here think blind tests aren't worth crap but if the difference is significant shouldn't it be easy to differentiate? If it's not significant why should you spend 400 on a 4000 dollar set of speakers? wouldn't that money be better invested in room treatments ? This doesn't apply to people who like spending extra money to be sure everything is perfect but I doubt that describes a lot of polk fans.

I'm interested in what stands out f1nut and primarily if the difference is substantial or if you have to look for it.

[nooshinjohn]

I'm sorry but this reeks of expensive speaker wire. By far the biggest difference is the placebo effect. Make sure you do blind tests to try and differentiate the shun mook stuff. I'm still surprised that people will swear by expensive speaker wire when in double blind tests no one can tell the difference between generic and expensive wire as long as the copper is thick enough and you're not by a giant power plant.

You really think that 1000 dollar a foot wire makes a difference over 12 gauge speaker wire? For subwoofers it makes a bit more difference but on many hi end systems we've tried out different expensive speaker wires and not noticed a difference. Maybe we're just crazy. Then again these speakers were only 2-4,000 dollars. Welcome back Seafart:eek:

Looks like your command of the english language has improved:)

Only seven posts old and you decide to start off with this BS... all that is left to say is welcome to CP!

[F1nut]

The answers to all your questions lie within my 17,000+ posts. Enjoy!

[Resiroth]

Wow! I wasn't aware there were people around that actually thought post count mattered.
"Well, I don't want to brag or anything but....I have posted nearly 1600 messages on the internet"
Congratulations. Really, I'm in awe of your posting capabilities. :rolleyes:

I still maintain that anyone without absurdly high end speakers and more importantly custom made rooms with acoustic treatment should not bother spending wads of cash on speaker wire. If you've spent 400k on your system then yeah, why not ( it will at least look cool ). But if you've got a 4k dollar system not one person I've met has been able to tell the difference ( and not one person in the world has been able to provide anywhere near 100% accuracy between generic and expensive speaker wire ).

I'm really surprised there are so many high end audiophiles on polk's forum. Polk's highest end line is, what, under 2.5k for a stereo setup right? I didn't expect to find people spending 1k PER FOOT of cable. I never pegged polk's consumer base as elitist.

Nooshinjohn, you're clearly a superhuman at hearing. Why don't you make an easy million dollars comparing monster cables to 7,500 dollar audio cables? Should be a piece of cake right? In spite of all of these self proclaimed golden ears out there no on has done it so far. It appears your understanding of basic human psychology has not improved. :rolleyes:
Edit: this is directed at nooshinjohn, not f1nut of course.

[F1nut]

About what I expected. How about you relax, lose the attitude and get your read on if you really want the answers to your questions. If not, move on.

[nooshinjohn]

I won't be brought into your BS...
Nooshinjohn, you're clearly a superhuman at hearing. Why don't you make an easy million dollars comparing monster cables to 7,500 dollar audio cables? Should be a piece of cake right? In spite of all of these self proclaimed golden ears out there no on has done it so far. It appears your understanding of basic human psychology has not improved. Hearing has nothing to do with Psychology and everything to do with the ear's ability to interpret sound. I do not claim to be an expert on anything, nor do I claim to be superhuman. Rather I come here to learn from others, contribute where I can and associate with folks I have come to respect, some less than others, but that's family for you. Bottom line is were support each other through this crazy mess called audio appreciation. Some call it being an audiofile. To me that means we appreciate sound and the efforts some members go to to get the most out of their gear, whether we agree or not.

You sir have made 8 posts here, EIGHT! I do not care if you have made one post per second for the past 15 years on the internet elsewhere. Here is what counts to Club Polk. I encourage you to take a step back and evaluate why you joined the forum and contribute a bit before you start trashing those that have earned their due by doing the same.

[Resiroth]

On the contrary High-end audio has a lot to do with psychology. If you hook up two identical wire sets and tell them that one is more expensive and features gas injected platinum plated liquid core technology they'll always choose that one as being superior. This of course is known as the placebo effect.

I do not claim to be an expert of audio equipment but I do believe the laws of diminishing returns definitely applies here. You only have to read the specifications for these products; ultra-pure 99.9999% copper is listed as a component of monster cable's "Sigma Retro" speaker cable. Can humans differentiate between not just thousandths of a percent, but ten thousandths of a percent? My own speaker wires are listed as having a Magnetic Flux Tube. Really? A flux tube? I'm surprised people swear by flux tubes and 10thousandths of a percent pure copper but balk at the idea of special wood to enhance sound.

I agree my attitude could have been better in my last post but bragging about post count is pretty silly under any circumstance.

I do appreciate high-end audio but it's things like Shun Mook and 50 grand spent on speaker cables that I believe give high-end audio a bad name.

I still have a question about why AB comparisons while blindfolded are not accepted. If it does indeed take weeks to tell the difference why spend so much on it? I would think the expensive speaker wire would be an instant improvement as speaker upgrades are ( going from 500/pair to 2k/pair, ) especially if you were coming from generic wire.

I'll try to keep my posts more civil in the future.

[F1nut]

Who's bragging? I simply suggested that you could find the answers to your questions in my posts. Perhaps now that we have that matter cleared up....


Please re-read the following,


Rapid switching between components, for example, will always make differences harder to hear. A component's subtleties are not revealed in a few seconds or minutes, but slowly over the course of days or weeks. When reviewing a product, I find that I don't really get to know it until after several weeks of daily listening. Toward the end of the review process, I am still learning aspects of the product's character.

He doesn't say it takes weeks to tell the difference, rather it takes weeks to learn the subtleties. I agree 100%


If you hook up two identical wire sets and tell them that one is more expensive and features gas injected platinum plated liquid core technology they'll always choose that one as being superior. This of course is known as the placebo effect.


I've recently been playing with a very expensive power cord on loan from the maker. Mind you, my current pc wasn't cheap either. So, after learning the subtleties of this "new" pc I could tell that my original pc sounded better to my ears. This, of course, makes the placebo effect theory or the just because it costs more theory invalid. When one learns how to listen and keeps an open mind, one will be blessed with audio nirvana.

[heiney9]

Resiroth, You've already stated you tried higher end cables (in your words"just more expensive") and didn't notice a difference in your system in your environment, with your ears. Why can't you leave it at that? Others including myself have had the opposite results and we're fine to encourage others to try better cables and gear. Not to chastise those who can't hear a difference.

I have heard differences in very modest systems with very modest cables. Many times it's about the synergy and like F1 stated he tried an uber expensive cable and it didn't sound better in his system.

Why is it the cable crusaders like yourself can't just state your opinions/experiences and move on? Why do you feel you have to chastise those who do and can hear a difference. Personally I can respect anyone's opinion who has given a valid effort to try different things and in the end feels there's no benefit. Why do I have to participate in all these scientific tests to prove to you what I hear? Why does that matter to you? How does it benefit you? Is it so you think you can say "I told you so" or so you can continue to chastise and tell people they are crazy?

All I care about is what my rig sounds like to my ears, in my environment, with my music, in my sweetspot.

In my office rig I switched from 14g "zip" chord to Canare Star Quad and heard a very subtle but pleasing positive difference. The Canare, in the end, cost less than the "zip" chord. So these positive changes aren't just limited to "expensive" high end gear or speakers. Just using a pair of refreshed, lowly, 20 year old Polk Audio Monitor 5B's, an inexpensive dac streaming FLAC files from my computer, using a modest Toslink cable w/Signal Analog II's hooked to an inexpensive 13wpc hybrid tube buffered gainclone output amp.

Guess what.................this is the best (and most inexpensive) sounding office rig I've assembled so far. The synergy is off the charts. It's the sum of all the parts working together that makes a stellar rig. I've tried expensive to modestly priced cables and finally settled on MIT's for the main rig. It would take a lot to convince me to use any other type of cable and I/C's.

I alos tried some much more expensive MIT model and guess what.............I didn;t care for them as much as I did the current MIT's I'm using. S-Y-N-E-R-G-Y

H9

[messiah]

Wow! I wasn't aware there were people around that actually thought post count mattered.
"Well, I don't want to brag or anything but....I have posted nearly 1600 messages on the internet"
Congratulations. Really, I'm in awe of your posting capabilities. :rolleyes:

I still maintain that anyone without absurdly high end speakers and more importantly custom made rooms with acoustic treatment should not bother spending wads of cash on speaker wire. If you've spent 400k on your system then yeah, why not ( it will at least look cool ). But if you've got a 4k dollar system not one person I've met has been able to tell the difference ( and not one person in the world has been able to provide anywhere near 100% accuracy between generic and expensive speaker wire ).

I'm really surprised there are so many high end audiophiles on polk's forum. Polk's highest end line is, what, under 2.5k for a stereo setup right? I didn't expect to find people spending 1k PER FOOT of cable. I never pegged polk's consumer base as elitist.

Nooshinjohn, you're clearly a superhuman at hearing. Why don't you make an easy million dollars comparing monster cables to 7,500 dollar audio cables? Should be a piece of cake right? In spite of all of these self proclaimed golden ears out there no on has done it so far. It appears your understanding of basic human psychology has not improved. :rolleyes:
Edit: this is directed at nooshinjohn, not f1nut of course.

9 posts and you're bashing the vets, huh? Just so you know it wont be "placebo effect" when everyone starts calling you a fuckin moron. Do yourself a favor and spend some time reading. Do some searches. LEARN SOME THINGS. Then come back and join our discussions. Once you lose the attitude that you know everything, it's amazing how much you can learn!!

[Resiroth]

I have always taken the stance that you should buy whatever you want. Different speakers are pretty easily identifiable so I believe most of the budget should be allocate to them. I said in one of my posts the equivalent of whatever makes you happy and I mean that.

The reason why us cable crusaders want someone to prove the can hear any difference is that otherwise expensive cables are in the same range as shun mook. Expensive accessories which make a difference but can never be noticed in a double blind test. If someone can tell the difference in a test then it graduates to a legitimate component.

As for me bashing the vets, I'm really not. All that is happening is vets are bashing someone with low posts and asserting their perceived superiority as master of the internets.

Seriously google the placebo effect, this is basic psychology 101, not some theory. It's like when people claim to be able to see 100 fps on a 60 hz monitor. I never was talking about you f1nut, I was referring to people who just look at post count as the measurement of knowledge.

[Face]

Quit speaking in absolutes, not every blind test has disproved differences in cables, amps, etc... You sound like an internet expert on the subject, why don't you get out there and try some different gear and cables instead of going by what you've read on the internet and psychology books. Hit a few high end shops and ask to demo different cables.

[kevhed72]

Bernal, put me down for 5 of those Shun Mook devices...one for each speaker. I may need 2 more when I upgrade to a 7.1 system. Thanks

[Keiko]

I knew this girl named Shun Mook once. She shunned me after I mooked her.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/6321ded38f.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

[kevhed72]

Rim / bass drum shot....But seriously folks, I'll be here all weekend.
I think if you purchased one of these things, you would get shunned up the mook...

[Keiko]

I wanna mook Shun again. :o

[amulford]

The answers to all your questions lie within my 17,000+ posts. Enjoy!

While that statement is funny as hell, I just realized you are really effed up...:D

[amulford]

I knew this girl named Shun Mook once. She shunned me after I mooked her.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/6321ded38f.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

You just made me hurt my buddy...

[dorokusai]

100% hogwash.

[Face]

100% hogwash.
Maybe so, but Resiroth appears to be lumping it together with anything that's not regular zip cord.

[cnh]

A striking resemblance to Michelle Yeoh there, Keiko. One of my favorites!

cnh

[WilliamM2]

Maybe so, but Resiroth appears to be lumping it together with anything that's not regular zip cord.

Why not? If you look for reviews of the Shun Mook products, you will find many reviewers who claim to hear an improvement, just like cables. They also have just as much evidence to back up their claims, which is absolutely none.

So what's the difference? Both snake oil.

[cnh]

Bernal, if you are quoting from some source, please use the quote feature otherwise it appears that you are selling the products yourself. You aren't, are you?

As for blind tests, they are completely worthless.

Finut,

You're right this is a quote from a Shun Mook site. I looked it up immediately because I didn't have a clue as to what a Mook was. But I think Keiko snagged it above.

cnh

[lightman1]

how about a slice of that Apple pie ala-mode you have been promising me?:)


Yummy....pie!

Coming right up!

[Keiko]

Coming right up!

I'll have a slice of mook please.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/065d6aa289.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

[hearingimpared]

Why not? If you look for reviews of the Shun Mook products, you will find many reviewers who claim to hear an improvement, just like cables. They also have just as much evidence to back up their claims, which is absolutely none.

So what's the difference? Both snake oil.

Well if you say so. I better ditch my MIT ICs & Speaker cables and put my monoprice cables back on.

Oh wait! I tried that already! I better not as I don't want my rig to sound like I have mattresses over the speakers again.:rolleyes:

[Keiko]

Why not? If you look for reviews of the Shun Mook products, you will find many reviewers who claim to hear an improvement, just like cables. They also have just as much evidence to back up their claims, which is absolutely none.

So what's the difference? Both snake oil.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/fced251dcc.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)
__________________

[WilliamM2]

As usual, nothing but trolling from Keiko.

[Keiko]

As usual, nothing but trolling from Keiko.

As usual, William carrying on with his naysayers crusade. :rolleyes:

[Resiroth]

I have tried speaker wires on 4,000 pair speaker systems and no one noticed a difference. I think the parallels between shun mook and expensive speaker wire are accurate. Sure, buy expensive speaker wire if you hear a difference, just know that there is no more evidence for speaker wire than shun mook. Buy shun mook if you hear the difference, same thing. And for the record I and my peers do not use lamp cord, we use monoprice or similar cheap low gauge wire, for looks.

[cnh]

I don't know why all you guys hate lamp cords. My lamps all have them and the light bulbs work fine!

cnh

[nooshinjohn]

Why not? If you look for reviews of the Shun Mook products, you will find many reviewers who claim to hear an improvement, just like cables. They also have just as much evidence to back up their claims, which is absolutely none.

So what's the difference? Both snake oil.I think before you start down this road you should go to a High end store and listen to some lampcord wires and then go to the bathroom and use an earwax removal kit from Walmart... then go back and listen again.

From Resiroth...
I have tried speaker wires on 4,000 pair speaker systems and no one noticed a difference. I think the parallels between shun mook and expensive speaker wire are accurate. Sure, buy expensive speaker wire if you hear a difference, just know that there is no more evidence for speaker wire than shun mook. Buy shun mook if you hear the difference, same thing. And for the record I and my peers do not use lamp cord, we use monoprice or similar cheap low gauge wire, for looks.


I am putting odds that this is the new incarnation of seafire(seafart) at 2to1... any takers?:rolleyes:

[Monster Jam]

This is one of the top threads to come along CP in a long time. Flames from all directions. Nice!

[nooshinjohn]

lets not forget Keiko and the hotness that keeps showing up

[Resiroth]

Way to ignore the point of my post. I have no idea who seafire is. I am sure williamM2 has compared speaker wire and didn't notice a difference, like a lot of audiophiles.

Perhaps you cannot bear to face the fact that your 3500 dollar amp is no different than a thousand dollar amp. sure it may have .000001% distortion, but people are not able to hear that small of a difference. If you want to show that it makes an audible difference over say, shun mook or any other dubious audiophile hardware quantifiable proof is required. This is only if you want to gain any legitimacy though, plenty of people swear by shun mook/magic foil/carbon fiber stands etc. which is fine.

If a video is shot at 10000fps it is clearly superior to a video shot at 1000 fps. Can you tell the difference though? No. You are living in a fantasy world. Have you considered a new clock? Reviewers have raved about it. It makes music just that much better! There's no evidence to support these claims, but the same goes for ultra expensive speaker wire.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue23/clock_nespa.htm
http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina41.htm

[Keiko]

My ears are evidence enough.


I am sure williamM2 has compared speaker wire and didn't notice a difference, like a lot of audiophiles.
^^^ LOL! :D

[Face]

Machine Dynamica and people who fall for their shit give audiophiles a bad name.


I am sure williamM2 has compared speaker wire and didn't notice a difference, like a lot of audiophiles.I'm glad I'm not the only one who found that funny.

[WilliamM2]

Machine Dynamica and people who fall for their shit give audiophiles a bad name.


Just as cable fanatics do.



I'm glad I'm not the only one who found that funny.

Don't know why you'd find it funny. I've compared many cables over the years, I used to buy into the BS just like you.

I've also compared them blind, something I doubt any of you "believers" have done.

[hearingimpared]

I have tried speaker wires on 4,000 pair speaker systems and no one noticed a difference. I think the parallels between shun mook and expensive speaker wire are accurate. Sure, buy expensive speaker wire if you hear a difference, just know that there is no more evidence for speaker wire than shun mook. Buy shun mook if you hear the difference, same thing. And for the record I and my peers do not use lamp cord, we use monoprice or similar cheap low gauge wire, for looks.

You contradicted yourself above. The evidence is what I've heard with my own ears concering speaker wire and ICs and that is all the evidence I need.

[hearingimpared]

Way to ignore the point of my post. I have no idea who seafire is. I am sure williamM2 has compared speaker wire and didn't notice a difference, like a lot of audiophiles.

Perhaps you cannot bear to face the fact that your 3500 dollar amp is no different than a thousand dollar amp. sure it may have .000001% distortion, but people are not able to hear that small of a difference. If you want to show that it makes an audible difference over say, shun mook or any other dubious audiophile hardware quantifiable proof is required. This is only if you want to gain any legitimacy though, plenty of people swear by shun mook/magic foil/carbon fiber stands etc. which is fine.

If a video is shot at 10000fps it is clearly superior to a video shot at 1000 fps. Can you tell the difference though? No. You are living in a fantasy world. Have you considered a new clock? Reviewers have raved about it. It makes music just that much better! There's no evidence to support these claims, but the same goes for ultra expensive speaker wire.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue23/clock_nespa.htm
http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina41.htm

I'll pit my Trivista 300 against any $1k amp and tell you the difference blindfolded, one hand tied behind my back and standing on one foot if that's what you like.

[Resiroth]

You are aware that what your brain expects to hear, it hears right? What you hear is not related to what sound waves enter your ear canal, only how your brain processes these signals.

There is a big fuss over the following clip:
http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=10356884
Click on the video link to hear it. If you expect to hear f**king around you hear f**king around. If you expect to hear looking around you hear looking around. You ear is not even remote proof. This is basic psychology. I can't believe people are not aware of these basic facts.

Seriously, try thinking to yourself it will sound like f**cking around and then you'll hear it. Tell yourself it will sound like looking around and you will hear looking around.

So, you say machina dynamica is BS. Are carbon fiber stands BS? Is shun mook BS? Are 10,000 dollar amplifiers BS? Are 10,000 dollar cables BS? Are 5,000 dollar record players BS? Are 1,000 dollar cleaning solutions ( for records ) BS? Chances are you think at least some of these products are bullcrap, and yet many popular audiophile magazines claim the skies opened and it unlocked a whole new world of fantastic auditory experiences yada yada...

[Keiko]

Just as cable fanatics do.




Don't know why you'd find it funny. I've compared many cables over the years, I used to buy into the BS just like you.

hehe :rolleyes:



I've also compared them blind, something I doubt any of you "believers" have done.
So you're a blind and deaf crusader. Carry on.

[Face]

So, you say machina dynamica is BS. Are carbon fiber stands BS? Is shun mook BS? Are 10,000 dollar amplifiers BS? Are 10,000 dollar cables BS? Are 5,000 dollar record players BS? Are 1,000 dollar cleaning solutions ( for records ) BS? Chances are you think at least some of these products are bullcrap, and yet many popular audiophile magazines claim the skies opened and it unlocked a whole new world of fantastic auditory experiences yada yada...I try not to quantify price with performance. See below.


I've also compared them blind, something I doubt any of you "believers" have done.I've had blind tests here with friends a few times. We've compared cables, CDP's, capacitors, and who knows what else. Sometimes we've had a hard time telling cables apart, and other times differences were obvious. Sorry to hear you haven't had the same experience. Fortunately, it's not always the most expensive item that comes up on top.

[Resiroth]

I'll pit my Trivista 300 against any $1k amp and tell you the difference blindfolded, one hand tied behind my back and standing on one foot if that's what you like.

Amplifiers make more sense than speaker wires to spend absurd amounts of money on as they can have different sound characteristics ( tube etc. ). There is likely an amplifier for 1,000 that would indistinguishable from your amplifier. Now if you can tell the difference between 12 gauge normal speaker wire and 10,000 dollar + wire you'd be the first. Literally, the first. No one has done that in a double blind test so far.

[Face]

Now if you can tell the difference between 12 gauge normal speaker wire and 10,000 dollar + wire you'd be the first. Literally, the first. No one has done that in a double blind test so far.Out of what, your small group of friends?

[Resiroth]

Out of many many many double blind tests. If you believe you can tell the difference, go ahead and take one of the many challenges that are out there. So far no one has been able to get anywhere near 95% accuracy between cables. Again, you hear what you expect to hear. That's plain and simple psychology.

[BlueFox]

There was a post a few days ago regarding the electrical characteristics (inductance, capacitance, resistance) of various speaker wires, and it showed a wide range of variance in the different cable brands measured. However, it did not make any conclusion as to whether those differences were audible, it simply measured the cables. Anyway, at least to me, it certainly seems plausible that cables with different electrical characteristics, acting as an electrical signal transport between two devices, could possibly influence that electrical signal. If the signal were being used to drive a speaker then that change certainly could be audible.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is, in my mind at least, it certainly is possible that speaker cables can enhance, or degrade, the electrical signal sufficiently so that it is audible.

As the article on blind testing pointed out, it is necessary to become familiar with the sound of the equipment before nuances of change can be definitively heard. After I had my current setup for a month or so I upgraded my speaker wire from 12 gauge hardware store cable to $400 for an 8 foot pair cable, and I was amazed at the increase in detail, openness, and clarity that resulted. At that point I understood that the speaker cable did make a difference. A few weeks later I upgraded my SPDIF interconnect, and it too had the same positive effect. Not that the inexpensive cables I was using before sounded bad, it just sounded a lot better now.

Of course, it is going to be a long time before I feel like spending the really big bucks for cables to see if that makes a substantial improvement over my modest upgrades. :)

[hearingimpared]

Out of many many many double blind tests. If you believe you can tell the difference, go ahead and take one of the many challenges that are out there. So far no one has been able to get anywhere near 95% accuracy between cables. Again, you hear what you expect to hear. That's plain and simple psychology.

I'm just curious how many double blind tests have been performed? I've conducted dozens of speaker and IC tests and was able to tell the difference MOST not all most of the time. That's how I've ended up with MIT ICs and speaker wires. I'm happy with what I've got now but when the bug hits and the funds are available I'm sure I'll find better out there without double blind testing.

[lightman1]

Pie's are ready....

[hearingimpared]

There was a post a few days ago regarding the electrical characteristics (inductance, capacitance, resistance) of various speaker wires, and it showed a wide range of variance in the different cable brands measured. However, it did not make any conclusion as to whether those differences were audible, it simply measured the cables. Anyway, at least to me, it certainly seems plausible that cables with different electrical characteristics, acting as an electrical signal transport between two devices, could possibly influence that electrical signal. If the signal were being used to drive a speaker then that change certainly could be audible.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is, in my mind at least, it certainly is possible that speaker cables can enhance, or degrade, the electrical signal sufficiently so that it is audible.

As the article on blind testing pointed out, it is necessary to become familiar with the sound of the equipment before nuances of change can be definitively heard. After I had my current setup for a month or so I upgraded my speaker wire from 12 gauge hardware store cable to $400 for an 8 foot pair cable, and I was amazed at the increase in detail, openness, and clarity that resulted. At that point I understood that the speaker cable did make a difference. A few weeks later I upgraded my SPDIF interconnect, and it too had the same positive effect. Not that the inexpensive cables I was using before sounded bad, it just sounded a lot better now.

Of course, it is going to be a long time before I feel like spending the really big bucks for cables to see if that makes a substantial improvement over my modest upgrades. :)

BlueFox the double blind test advocates are going to say you are a victim of a placebo effect.

[NotaSuv]

If you stop feeding the troll they do go away :)

[NotaSuv]

Pie's are ready....

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm fur pie mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Keiko]

Pie's are ready....

WooHoo! Pie! I like pie. : )~~~~~

[NotaSuv]

If you stop feeding the troll they do go away :)

......

[lightman1]

Shall I serve some up?

[cnh]

If you guys keep this up I'm going to have to get certified as a CABLE THERAPIST! Wonder if there's any money in that? Would be a nice second gig...listening to people's cable woes for cash. Being there for support and so on.

Who's willing to Pay?

cnh

[dorokusai]

When does this discussion/argument ever get interesting? When someone rolls in with some information that hasn't been rehashed in 1000 other threads or forums, let me know.

I don't care what any of you believe in, you know why? You simply don't factor into my world. If I'm crazy? Awesome. If you are, that's extra awesome. While the pundits cojole about this or that, I'll throw on some headphones and forget you exist.

Happy Listening.

[Resiroth]

Well of course speaker wire can degrade sound. 24 gauge speaker wire will sound horrible. The only way to be sure is to have a double blind test between 12 gauge and your new speaker wire. If you expect to hear something better, you are much more likely to hear something better. You are likely familiar with your own setup right? Double blind tests should definitely not be an issue then.

The thing that irks me is that people will drop 10,000+ dollars on speaker wire and say that immediately they were blown away by the huge difference and yet on blind tests they can't tell the difference. Maybe it's me but I can never see how people spend 10,000 on some wire and have to spend weeks before they ( excluding blind tests ) feel that they prefer the new wire. Perhaps I am not as focused on getting the best audio for any price as some people are here.

Headphones are horrible for lots of reasons ( no parties/friends can hear anything, not comfortable for some people ) but they provide perfect driver position and outside of deep bass are often superior to many of the setups on here for much less. If you're critically listening to 2 channel stereo with speakers you can't move, a pretty big disadvantage. I'm surprised people here don't invest in high-end headphones as well. Considering sound quality is often heavily dependent on the position of the speaker relative to the ear I would think more elite users would go this route.

This whole issue has gone overboard though, if you feel like your audio purchase is justified that is all that really matters. I still encourage you to see the power of suggestion/placebo effect using the link on the previous page. It truly is astonishing how quickly our brain can completely change what we heard in a song.

EDIT: I'm sure that audiophiles are like many devoted enthusiasts. Sure you don't need quad SLI and raid hard drives, but you're still going to buy it just in case it makes a difference. At least with speaker wire there is a potential for improvement, unlike digital/hdmi cables.

[Keiko]

Shall I serve some up?

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/d0fee1c450.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)
Slice it nice.

[cnh]

Keep those coming Keiko!

cnh

[dorokusai]

Yeah, keep that borderline porn coming.....

[nooshinjohn]

[QUOTE=Resiroth;1079812]Way to ignore the point of my post. I have no idea who seafire is.


BS... Its you....


Perhaps you cannot bear to face the fact that your 3500 dollar amp is no different than a thousand dollar amp. sure it may have .000001% distortion, but people are not able to hear that small of a difference. If you want to show that it makes an audible difference over say, shun mook or any other dubious audiophile hardware quantifiable proof is required. This is only if you want to gain any legitimacy though, plenty of people swear by shun mook/magic foil/carbon fiber stands etc. which is fine.


More BS... I can hear a great deal of differnce between my Yamaha AVR and the Sunfire. The only reason for the upgrade was the huge difference I heard when I experimented with a lesser amp...

If a video is shot at 10000fps it is clearly superior to a video shot at 1000 fps. Can you tell the difference though? No. You are living in a fantasy world. Have you considered a new clock? Reviewers have raved about it. It makes music just that much better! There's no evidence to support these claims, but the same goes for ultra expensive speaker wire.

Yet more BS... who here cares about anything more than the standard 24fps used in shooting a motion picture...

I bet you can FEEL the difference for every milimeter deeper your foot goes in your mouth on this thread, or every micron deeper Lightman's foot goes up your @$$

Speaking of which.. wheres my damn pie

[NotaSuv]

[QUOTE=Resiroth;1079812]Way to ignore the point of my post. I have no idea who seafire is.


BS... Its you....


Perhaps you cannot bear to face the fact that your 3500 dollar amp is no different than a thousand dollar amp. sure it may have .000001% distortion, but people are not able to hear that small of a difference. If you want to show that it makes an audible difference over say, shun mook or any other dubious audiophile hardware quantifiable proof is required. This is only if you want to gain any legitimacy though, plenty of people swear by shun mook/magic foil/carbon fiber stands etc. which is fine.


More BS... I can hear a great deal of differnce between my Yamaha AVR and the Sunfire. The only reason for the upgrade was the huge difference I heard when I experimented with a lesser amp...

If a video is shot at 10000fps it is clearly superior to a video shot at 1000 fps. Can you tell the difference though? No. You are living in a fantasy world. Have you considered a new clock? Reviewers have raved about it. It makes music just that much better! There's no evidence to support these claims, but the same goes for ultra expensive speaker wire.

Yet more BS... who here cares about anything more than the standard 24fps used in shooting a motion picture...

I bet you can FEEL the difference for every milimeter deeper your foot goes in your mouth on this thread, or every micron deeper Lightman's foot goes up your @$$


Why bother replying................puts you on the same playing field as the troll

[nooshinjohn]

Out of what, your small group of friends?


his friends are Rosi DePalma and her five sisters... there are only four now as one had to be amputated due to injuries resulting from excessive friction:eek:

[nooshinjohn]

[QUOTE=nooshinjohn;1079895]


Why bother replying................puts you on the same playing field as the trollpoint taken... peace/out:)

[Keiko]

Check out this Lara Croft! Holy Guacamole! :eek:

http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=new+lara+croft+movie&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-501&fr2=tab-web&tnr=21&vid=0001383078420

[NotaSuv]

now back to more pie :)

[Resiroth]

I still don't know who seafire is but I agree this thread has gotten out of hand. My point about fps was that an improvement on paper does not mean an improvement in real life. Enjoy living in your fantasy world. I still cannot believe that you lack basic understanding of how the brain works. I never expected so much ignorance of physics and psychology. Perhaps this has to do with increased cuts to education....I'm out.

[nooshinjohn]

here is some chocolate pie for everyone...

[NotaSuv]

here is some chocolate pie for everyone...

nice piece of pie indeed.............

[lightman1]

[/QUOTE] or every micron deeper Lightman's foot goes up your @$$

Speaking of which.. wheres my damn pie[/QUOTE]
My foot is only for your ass, John.:p
...and I'm putting the ice-cream on now, be patient.

[lightman1]

here is some chocolate pie for everyone...
Very tasty!!

[Keiko]

New Rule:

In the future.Threads of this nature will be absorbed and turned into PIE! Which will then be consumed.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/8d7dfede13.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)
It's just so much more tastier this way. :)

[nooshinjohn]

I still don't know who seafire is but I agree this thread has gotten out of hand. My point about fps was that an improvement on paper does not mean an improvement in real life. Enjoy living in your fantasy world. I still cannot believe that you lack basic understanding of how the brain works. I never expected so much ignorance of physics and psychology. Perhaps this has to do with increased cuts to education....I'm out. perhaps the reason you cannot appreciate the nuances of better sound is that you lack the brain capacity to process facts. It must be hard to only have one functioning brain cell. I CAN see the improvement with increased information coming from FPS in film or in sound through better cables and gear. The whole concept as I understand it from better cables and gear is that MORE information is able to be gleened from a recording by using better gear to find it. The more information that can be recovered, the better the sound. I can hear differences in amps as well as cables precisely because they are designed to peel back the layers of fog(distortion, interference etc) and reveal details that would go missing otherwise. Take your favorite music and play it at Best buy or another big box store and compare it against a mid-fi offering from an Audio store (IF you can find one) and then tell me you hear no difference. Then do so with true high end gear... trust me, your brain will know the difference, assuming you have one.

[nooshinjohn]

or every micron deeper Lightman's foot goes up your @$$

Speaking of which.. wheres my damn pie[/QUOTE]
My foot is only for your ass, John.:p
...and I'm putting the ice-cream on now, be patient.[/QUOTE]


lmao... God gave you two feet for a reason

[lightman1]

New Rule:

In the future.Threads of this nature will be absorbed and turned into PIE! Which will then be consumed.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/8d7dfede13.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)
It's just so much more tastier this way. :)

Outstanding idea, Mike!!!
We'll use this one as a beta test to see if it works.


Tagged!

[NotaSuv]

perhaps the reason you cannot appreciate the nuances of better sound is that you lack the brain capacity to process facts. It must be hard to only have one functioning brain cell. I CAN see the improvement with increased information coming from FPS in film or in sound through better cables and gear. The whole concept as I understand it from better cables and gear is that MORE information is able to be gleened from a recording by using better gear to find it. The more information that can be recovered, the better the sound. I can hear differences in amps as well as cables precisely because they are designed to peel back the layers of fog(distortion, interference etc) and reveal details that would go missing otherwise. Take your favorite music and play it at Best buy or another big box store and compare it against a mid-fi offering from an Audio store (IF you can find one) and then tell me you hear no difference. Then do so with true high end gear... trust me, your brain will know the difference, assuming you have one.

well you got the point for a few minutes............do you really need to get the last word in? why even bother?

[nooshinjohn]

can I be in charge of chocolate pies?

[NotaSuv]

can I be in charge of chocolate pies?

ONLY if you stop the troll feeding

[lightman1]

can I be in charge of chocolate pies?

Without question, John.
My pies tend to be bitter.....

[NotaSuv]

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Keiko]

Forget him and eat your pie John. ;)

[NotaSuv]

Without question, John.
My pies tend to be bitter.....

well they need to wash a lil better then ;)

[lightman1]

well they need to wash a lil better then ;)
FUUUUUUNNNNY!!!!:D:D
Duly noted.

[nooshinjohn]

milk chocolate pie anyone?:D

[NotaSuv]

well going to bed with thoughts of pie dancing around in my head..............................

[lightman1]

well going to bed with thoughts of pie dancing around in my head..............................
Nighty-night, SUVY

[scottnbnj]

...Enjoy living in your fantasy world. I still cannot believe that you lack basic understanding of how the brain works. I never expected so much ignorance of physics and psychology. Perhaps this has to do with increased cuts to education....I'm out.

heh.

oh snap! i'm 18, i've owned a stereo for a year, i have, maybe, 100 hours of quality time in the sweetspot under my belt, i have an internet account and i'm lecturing a bunch of old farts on listening to and hearing stereo, fantasy worlds, physics, how the brain works and psychology made simple...

oh wait. that's not me.

carry on, make sure to keep us posted on all of your latest discoveries,.. and welcome to club polk.

)

[F1nut]

While that statement is funny as hell, I just realized you are really effed up...:D

Hehe......

[lightman1]

Hehe......
You want some more pie, Jesse? There's plenty left.;)

[Keiko]

I'm going to bed. Goofnite all you horndogs. ;)

[lightman1]

Fook you, Mike...

[nooshinjohn]

more pie please

[gdb]

It's kinda funny.....the OP launches a turd in the punchbowl and then abandons the thread altogether !!:D

[Keiko]

It's kinda funny.....the OP launches a turd in the punchbowl and then abandons the thread altogether !!:D
He didn't like the pie.

[lightman1]

It's kinda funny.....the OP launches a turd in the punchbowl and then abandons the thread altogether !!:D
I felled asleep..:o Seems i didn't miss any new rants about the energy of wood product and flying dics to make all think we can't hear things we do??....What??

[Monster Jam]

Please...just give me 5, maybe 10 minutes of quality time on Keiko's harddrive.

[nooshinjohn]

Please...just give me 5, maybe 10 minutes of quality time on Keiko's harddrive.

I bet its better than Viagra:D