Cable Break-in/adjustment period

[NJPOLKER]

While doing a little research on cables and directionally I ran across this on the Audioquest web site. May help some understand cables.

Important Cable Facts Running-In: As with all audio components, audio cables require an adjustment
period. This is often mistakenly referred to as “break-in”. However, break-in is properly used to
describe a mechanical change-engines break-in, loudspeaker and phono cartridge suspensions breakin.
A cable’s performance takes time to optimize because of the way a dielectric behaves (the way the
insulating material absorbs and releases energy), changes in the presence of a charge. Cables will
continue to improve in sound or picture quality over a period of several weeks. This is the same reason
amplifiers, preamplifiers and CD players also require an adjustment period. The key difference between
“adjusting” and “breaking-in” is that things don’t “un-break-in”, however, electrical components do “unadjust”.
Several weeks of disuse will return a cable to nearly its original state.
The run-in time is essentially the same for all cables. However, the apparent need for run-in varies
wildly. As with amplifiers and other components, the better the cable, the less distortion it has, and
therefore the less there is to cover up the obnoxious distortion caused by being new. Since human perception
is more aware of the existence of a distortion than the quantity, the better the cable, the worse
in some ways it will sound when new, because the anemic forced two-dimensional effect reulting from
being new will not be ameliorated by other gentler distortions. Please be patient when first listening to
any superior product.

[hearingimpared]

I think this is true. I hadn't had my rig up for a month or two and when I first powered it back up it sounded overly warm and muffled but after about a week it started to sound like its old self.

[Cpyder]

I think it's bull. If this were true and cables needed to "adjust" then there would be a measureable difference in sound/picture quality. I've never seen any papers or research showing this effect. If there were, then the company who wrote that bit would surely include it.

[NotaSuv]

I think it's bull. If this were true and cables needed to "adjust" then there would be a measureable difference in sound/picture quality. I've never seen any papers or research showing this effect. If there were, then the company who wrote that bit would surely include it.

Earl and the baby KNOW otherwise........nice try.............. now reel em up and try another body of water....theres lots of em around........

[hearingimpared]

I think it's bull. If this were true and cables needed to "adjust" then there would be a measureable difference in sound/picture quality. I've never seen any papers or research showing this effect. If there were, then the company who wrote that bit would surely include it.

. . . and of course we are to believe that you've read every bit of research on the subject of burnin. My ears tell me different.

PS: you obviously haven't read anything put out by the cable manufacturer MIT.

[NJPOLKER]

I think it's bull. If this were true and cables needed to "adjust" then there would be a measureable difference in sound/picture quality. I've never seen any papers or research showing this effect. If there were, then the company who wrote that bit would surely include it.


For your own knowledge you should do some research on the subject, learn and report back the facts. That is if you plan to be a contributing member here. I posted this information from Audioquest for some of the members here to better understand what really happens with cables and how to get the best performance from them.
Lets not start another cable debate!!

[blakeh]

There's a debate about cables? In my experience, you absolutely need cables for your system to sound good. I've never heard a rig sans cables that ever sounded realistic. :D:D

Good info in the initial post. I've heard the difference between virgin cables and burned-in cables over the years. I still remain skeptical as to why that phenomenon occurs (just because I hear a difference doesn't mean I am willing to attribute it to a specific cause), but I have experienced it first hand. Now whether that difference is due to the cables themselves, the shielding, my ears, a placebo affect, etc. I don't really know. But the info you posted certainly helps me better evaluate the equation.

[dkg999]

I think this is true. I hadn't had my rig up for a month or two and when I first powered it back up it sounded overly warm and muffled but after about a week it started to sound like its old self.

HI - that was your ears adjusting :p Cables don't make a difference :o

[hearingimpared]

HI - that was your ears adjusting :p Cables don't make a difference :o

LOL!! . . . I also used some Q-tiips.

[cnh]

I think it's bull. If this were true and cables needed to "adjust" then there would be a measureable difference in sound/picture quality. I've never seen any papers or research showing this effect. If there were, then the company who wrote that bit would surely include it.

Hey Cpyder.

This is an 'interesting' way of bursting on to the Polk scene. Now I can't answer this question, myself...but I am willing to 'listen'! Perhaps that's a better way to say 'welcome to Club Polk'.

cnh

[rayslifecycle]

The key difference between
“adjusting” and “breaking-in” is that things don’t “un-break-in”, however, electrical components do “unadjust”.
Several weeks of disuse will return a cable to nearly its original state.

I have experienced this first hand. After returning from my honeymoon, my 2 channel system sounded very muffled comparatively speaking to before we left. Last night it definitely sounded better then it had the past couple of weeks.

What does this mean?

Play your rig loud, (not too loud) and play it often.

[dragon1952]

Hey Cpyder.

This is an 'interesting' way of bursting on to the Polk scene. Now I can't answer this question, myself...but I am willing to 'listen'! Perhaps that's a better way to say 'welcome to Club Polk'.

cnh

The deal is, these guys see other people on some of the other sites saying that crap and they think it sounds cool, or makes them sound more intelligent than everyone else, so they start repeating it. I don't know how many times I've read that exact same quote. The least they can do is to say something original, or at least put it in their own words :rolleyes:

[NJPOLKER]

The deal is, these guys see other people on some of the other sites saying that crap and they think it sounds cool, or makes them sound more intelligent than everyone else, so they start repeating it. I don't know how many times I've read that exact same quote. The least they can do is to say something original, or at least put it in their own words :rolleyes:

I don't visit many sites and the other couple I don't visit often. It makes sense that the guys around here know a lot more than all the other sites combined. I trust the guys here and trust my ears more and I gotta say I can here difference's in cable's/wires. As for the adjustment/burn-in for components, no doubt whats so ever.

[hearingimpared]

I see we have more ccwards abusing the tags feature.

[pearsall001]

I think this is true. I hadn't had my rig up for a month or two and when I first powered it back up it sounded overly warm and muffled but after about a week it started to sound like its old self.

Clean your friggin ears out!!!:D:D

[NJPOLKER]

I see we have more ccwards abusing the tags feature.

I know we will find out who the coward is who is doing it.
Can any of you guys imagine what kind of a total coward you must be to do something like that? I mean a true to life, picture in the dictionary coward. If you have something to say come "out" and say it but this anal dripping has no respect for it's self so when "it" is found out we'll have one less around which is a good thing.

[Cpyder]

Wow, not quite sure why everyone just attacked me. My point was that until someone can bring some evidence to the table (not presented solely by a company who makes their money selling multi-thousand dollars cables) to suggest otherwise, I'm in disbelief. I'm also quite startled that so many of you are jumping on the wagon to believe a simple sales pitch, lacking any double-blind testing. (Or testing in general) Don't get me wrong, I'm not ruling out the possibility that there is some effect of "unadjusting", but in all reality it's probably similar to stating that my gravitational field is affecting everyone in this forum as they read this. The question is - is it measurable and not negligible.

[DarqueKnight]

My point was that until someone can bring some evidence to the table (not presented solely by a company who makes their money selling multi-thousand dollars cables) to suggest otherwise, I'm in disbelief.

So what? You're in disbelief. Why should we care? Really, why should we care?

Why would you inject yourself into a discussion of a topic you are highly skeptical of? I do not believe that life, intelligent or otherwise, exists on Mars. However, I would not inject myself into a discussion held by a group of believers in Martian life forms. I certainly wouldn't inject myself by starting off with "I think this is bull". What purpose would it serve? Do you think it makes you look smart, or at least smarter than the discussion participants?

I am not "attacking" you. I just want to know why you would want to participate in a discussion that you think is "bull".



I'm also quite startled that so many of you are jumping on the wagon to believe a simple sales pitch, lacking any double-blind testing.

I'm just speculating, but perhaps after trying the product they liked what they heard? You think that could have something to do with it?

[Cpyder]

So what? You're in disbelief. Why should we care? Really, why should we care?

Why would you inject yourself into a discussion of a topic you are highly skeptical of? I do not believe that life, intelligent or otherwise, exists on Mars. However, I would not inject myself into a discussion held by a group of believers in Martian life forms. I certainly wouldn't inject myself by starting off with "I think this is bull". What purpose would it serve? Do you think it makes you look smart, or at least smarter than the discussion participants?

I am not "attacking" you. I just want to know why you would want to participate in a discussion that you think is "bull".

I'm sorry. I guess I was under the impression that a forum was a place to discuss topics and invite open discussion. If I'm mistaken, please correct me. If I told you that my Ipod outputs a digital signal I would thank you for calling me out on it and correcting my misconception. I'd rather be educated than ignorant.

Oh, and I'm still waiting on some science to back up Audioquest's claim. In the meantime, here's some interesting reading on the topic.

"Audio Cable "Break In" Science or Psychological?"
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/audio-cable-break-in-science-or-psychological

"Break In" is not a proven audible or measurable phenomenon. The perception of changes in sound quality with time is likely attributable to the classical placebo effect, i.e., a listener anticipating a possible audible difference is predisposed to hear one whether or not it exists."

And a little more on overly-expensive cables,

"Top Ten Signs an Audio Cable Vendor is Selling You Snake Oil"
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/top-ten-signs-an-audio-cable-vendor-is-selling-you-snake-oil

[DarqueKnight]

Ohhhhhhhh. I see. You're here to educate us with selected readings from Audioholics.com.

I'll be back in a minute or two. I need to go and upgrade your status.

EDIT:

I'm back from the pause that refreshes. Reference attached pic below. Good night.

[BlueFox]

I'm sorry. I guess I was under the impression that a forum was a place to discuss topics and invite open discussion. If I'm mistaken, please correct me. If I told you that my Ipod outputs a digital signal I would thank you for calling me out on it and correcting my misconception. I'd rather be educated than ignorant.


My iPod Classic, used with the Wadia iTransport docking station, outputs a digital signal that is fed into my new Bryston DAC. Works great.

[F1nut]

For your viewing pleasure.....


Now back to the question of the blinded testing. Here is what the now publisher (Robert Harley) of one of the major magazines wrote a few years ago....


Quote:
Blind tests nearly universally appear to indicate that no differences exist between electronics, cables, capacitors, etc. In fact, one infamous test "revealed" that no sonic differences exist between power amplifiers. Mark Levinson, NYAL Futterman OTL tube monoblock, NAD, Hafler, and Counterpoint power amplifiers were all judged to be sonically identical to each other and to a $219 Japanese receiver (footnote 7). This very test, wielded by the objectivists as proof that all amplifiers sound alike, in fact calls into question the entire blind methodology because of the conclusion's absurdity. Who really believes that a pair of Futterman OTL tube amplifiers, a Mark Levinson, and a Japanese receiver are sonically identical? Rather than bolster the objectivist's case, the "all amplifiers sound the same" conclusion of this blind test in fact discredits the very methodology on which hangs the objectivist's entire belief structure.

If differences do exist between components, why don't blind tests conclusively establish the audibility of these differences? I believe that blind listening tests, rather than moving us toward the truth, actually lead us away from reality.

First, the preponderance of blind tests have been conducted by "objectivists" who arrange the tests in such a way that audible differences are more difficult to detect. Rapid switching between components, for example, will always make differences harder to hear. A component's subtleties are not revealed in a few seconds or minutes, but slowly over the course of days or weeks. When reviewing a product, I find that I don't really get to know it until after several weeks of daily listening. Toward the end of the review process, I am still learning aspects of the product's character. Furthermore, the stress of the situation—usually an unfamiliar environment (both music and playback system), adversarial relationship between tester and listener, and the prospect of being ridiculed—imposes an artificiality on the process that reduces one's sensitivity to musical nuances.

Going beyond the nuts and bolts of blind listening tests, I believe they are fundamentally flawed in that they seek to turn an emotional experience—listening to music—into an intellectual exercise. It is well documented that musical perception takes place in the right half of the brain and analytical reasoning in the left half. This process can be observed through PET (Positron-Emission Tomography) scans in which subjects listening to music exhibit increased right-brain metabolism. Those with musical training show activity in both halves of the brain, fluctuating constantly as the music is simultaneously experienced and analyzed. Forcing the brain into an unnatural condition (one that doesn't occur during normal music listening) during blind testing violates a sacrosanct law of science: change only one variable at a time. By introducing another variable—the way the brain processes music—blind listening tests are rendered worthless.

[F1nut]

More reading/education for you, Cpyder.

http://www.stereophile.com/features/113/

[Monster Jam]

Big Shocker this thread turned out to be.

You can read a thread title and know right off the bat the flame potential it has. This thread was a lock.

[hearingimpared]

More cowardly tags.

[bikezappa]

NJ POLKER

I am a material scientist for 40 years and I'm not commenting on what you hear.

The "Cable facts" you quote are not cable facts or science in any way shape or form.

"The dielectic changes of a charge" This is not true. A dielectis is a non conducting material or insulator. What property are you suggesting changes with charge. How does this change the dielectic material? What are the units of this change? We are talking very low voltages and low frequincies here.

I have no idea what "anemic forced two demensional effect" is but I think you or some one else is pulling your leg.

This pure and simple BS science.

[janmike]

Probably the reason you thought you were attached was your opening line. "I think it's bull."

Personally I could care less what my system sounds like to others. If you do not believe that cables or a quality CPD or tubes (just examples) make any difference, then so be it. They are my ears and my money. If I truly believe that the sound is enhanced by the addition of "whatever", then so be it. Until the day comes that someone else manages my income, I will spend it as I see fit. I work hard and big and spend hard and big. Enjoy.

PS - Thanks to all for showing me that there is a difference in quality.

[Face]

Audioholics only promotes what they sell.

[Cpyder]

NJ POLKER

I am a material scientist for 40 years and I'm not commenting on what you hear.

The "Cable facts" you quote are not cable facts or science in any way shape or form.

"The dielectic changes of a charge" This is not true. A dielectis is a non conducting material or insulator. What property are you suggesting changes with charge. How does this change the dielectic material? What are the units of this change? We are talking very low voltages and low frequincies here.

I have no idea what "anemic forced two demensional effect" is but I think you or some one else is pulling your leg.

This pure and simple BS science.

I've got the material scientists on my side. :)

And, I'm not saying nice cables are worthless, just that most of the "science" behind the multi-thousand dollar cables are.

Bluefox - How do you like the transport? Thought about getting one myself.

[NJPOLKER]

The reason I started this thread was when I read this information on Audioquest's web site I knew some will find it educational, I did. The information on the "disuse" of cable for a few weeks they convert back to almost original condition. I can't imagine that happening too often but it goes to show what Hearingimpared heard after he had his rig down for a couple months. Then again maybe he just needs more Q-Tips.

[NJPOLKER]

Bluefox - How do you like the transport? Thought about getting one myself.

Take it to another thread, thanks.

I've got the material scientists on my side.

Well I've got my ears and they tell me all I need to know, well for the most part.

[WilliamM2]

The reason I started this thread was when I read this information on Audioquest's web site I knew some will find it educational, I did.

If it's not true, how could it possibly be educational?

[NJPOLKER]

It is true information that is the benefit.

[hearingimpared]

NJ POLKER

I am a material scientist for 40 years and I'm not commenting on what you hear.

The "Cable facts" you quote are not cable facts or science in any way shape or form.

"The dielectic changes of a charge" This is not true. A dielectis is a non conducting material or insulator. What property are you suggesting changes with charge. How does this change the dielectic material? What are the units of this change? We are talking very low voltages and low frequincies here.

I have no idea what "anemic forced two demensional effect" is but I think you or some one else is pulling your leg.

This pure and simple BS science.


How come dialectric material changes in capacitors?

[bikezappa]

How come dialectric material changes in capacitors?

The type of dielectic material does effect it's capacitance. That and the geometry and many other issues will determine the capacitance.

But I never heard of dielectic material changing it's electric properties with or without the small signals of audio. That makes no sense to me. It's like saying that the resistance of speaker wire changes if the wire isn't used for a week.
That makes no sense also. Now the resistance will change a very small amount based on the temperature of the wire and that can be measured but I strongly doubt anyone could hear that differnce with a 20 degree temperature change.

If you hear a differnce it's not because of the dielectic changing electrical or material properties in your cable.

[WilliamM2]

It is true information that is the benefit.

It is completely false, do a little research. It's amazing that you guys will believe every thing you read in a marketing blurb, but completely ignore decades of research in engineering, physics, and human perception.

[Cpyder]

It is completely false, do a little research. It's amazing that you guys will believe every thing you read in a marketing blurb, but completely ignore decades of research in engineering, physics, and human perception.

Ditto x10

[NJPOLKER]

It is completely false, do a little research. It's amazing that you guys will believe every thing you read in a marketing blurb, but completely ignore decades of research in engineering, physics, and human perception.

William, completely false? Decades of research? So you see it one way and others see it another. Do you really think that the vast number of cable/wire manufactures just dream this stuff up? No research? Your thoughts and in-site on the subject is wrong as usual.

[bikezappa]

[QUOTE=NJPOLKER; Do you really think that the vast number of cable/wire manufactures just dream this stuff up? No research? Your thoughts and in-site on the subject is wrong as usual.[/QUOTE]


I believe that cable manufacturers and also many of the magazine writers do in fact make this crap up. This maybe a reason why the audio industry is in the poop shoot. I base this on my 40 years of working in the materials field and the unlimited greed potential of people. I think the recent economic history will bear out the greed theory, that people will say anything if it can make them more money.

If some one starts talking about materials and science and they omit the units to measure the terms I start to smell BS. Plain and simple, science without units is BS or speculation or ignorance IMHO.

"anemic forced two demensional effect" What are the units?

Nature is such that F=ma.

[WilliamM2]

Do you really think that the vast number of cable/wire manufactures just dream this stuff up? No research? Your thoughts and in-site on the subject is wrong as usual.

Yes, they do make it up, do you have any relevant information to the contrary? Besides marketing blurbs? Please point me to the research, I'll be more than happy to admit I'm wrong. The wire manufacturers can't be the only ones aware of these magical properties if it's true.

[rayslifecycle]

I do not believe everything I read, but I do notice differences in what I hear.
I have tried out a wide variety of cables now and have some I prefer.
Why?
Because they sound better to me. Some are $100, some are $20.
Am I going to go out and spend thousands on cables for my 500 dollar system?
No.

What most naysayers don't realize is that if they don't hear the difference, it is either because they are not discerning listeners/can't hear a difference, or their system's components are not sensitive enough to take advantage of the benefits a high end cable makes.

I would know which category the naysayers were in if they posted their system in the showcase.

Those who don't know, don't know they don't know and quote those that support their ignorance.

I know I hear differences in components and cables.

I also know that my system sounds different in different parts of the room. but the parts and components are the same and will test the same regardless where. Does this mean the room doesn't make a difference? Heat, humidity, smoking, cats and armpit odor all change the quality of experience we have when listening

Now I don't know if the OP's original quote from AQ is true, but it did explain what I clearly heard. If there is another reason for this, I am all ears (hahaha), but for now, I am willing to accept that we know as much about electricity as we do about how a plant grows, or human nutrition......which is not everything.......there are some things that we don't know......science is progressing but is far from a complete understanding of the universe.

So keep searching and experimenting with an open mind and don't be so scared of things that challenge your schema.

[rayslifecycle]

I think the recent economic history will bear out the greed theory, that people will say anything if it can make them more money.

Now this is a statement I fully support.


I am a material scientist for 40 years and I'm not commenting on what you hear.

Being a scientist in the field, please comment on what you hear.

[Cpyder]

I do not believe everything I read, but I do notice differences in what I hear.
I have tried out a wide variety of cables now and have some I prefer.
Why?
Because they sound better to me. Some are $100, some are $20.
Am I going to go out and spend thousands on cables for my 500 dollar system?
No.

What most naysayers don't realize is that if they don't hear the difference, it is either because they are not discerning listeners/can't hear a difference, or their system's components are not sensitive enough to take advantage of the benefits a high end cable makes.

I would know which category the naysayers were in if they posted their system in the showcase.

Those who don't know, don't know they don't know and quote those that support their ignorance.

I know I hear differences in components and cables.

I also know that my system sounds different in different parts of the room. but the parts and components are the same and will test the same regardless where. Does this mean the room doesn't make a difference? Heat, humidity, smoking, cats and armpit odor all change the quality of experience we have when listening

Now I don't know if the OP's original quote from AQ is true, but it did explain what I clearly heard. If there is another reason for this, I am all ears (hahaha), but for now, I am willing to accept that we know as much about electricity as we do about how a plant grows, or human nutrition......which is not everything.......there are some things that we don't know......science is progressing but is far from a complete understanding of the universe.

So keep searching and experimenting with an open mind and don't be so scared of things that challenge your schema.

This topic isn't on whether you hear a difference between 20 and 100 dollar cables.

This "research" is being used to sell cables worth thousands of dollars a foot in some instances. And, as William stated, if what these cable companies say is true, surely some independent researcher or non-affiliate would have research on this, and it would be taught at a university level... But, it isn't. Nor is it found in any textbook or research papers.

[rayslifecycle]

This topic isn't on whether you hear a difference between 20 and 100 dollar cables.

This "research" is being used to sell cables worth thousands of dollars a foot in some instances. And, as William stated, if what these cable companies say is true, surely some independent researcher or non-affiliate would have research on this, and it would be taught at a university level... But, it isn't. Nor is it found in any textbook or research papers.

ohhhhhh -

Well - that's the case with all advertising.
I miss-understood.
I thought you were saying there was not a difference between cables because it wasn't proved scientifically.

New Question:
If you can hear a difference, but there is no science to back it up, is there a difference?

Cpyder - I will ask you the same question as W_M2.......Do you hear a difference?

and then to everyone:
If you hear a difference, and you like what you hear, does it matter what the science or advertising says?

[NJPOLKER]

Are you two guys trying to say that cables/wires or sound does not change after a period of time? That what this thread is about. Its a simple thing, either it does or it does not. Many here or their can hear a difference, for what ever reason you do not and thats too bad for you.
bikezappa have you ever worked with the exact wire used to manufacture cables?

[NJPOLKER]

clark, I think they are both hearingimpared, sorry Joe.

[NJPOLKER]

Yes, they do make it up, do you have any relevant information to the contrary? Besides marketing blurbs? Please point me to the research, I'll be more than happy to admit I'm wrong. The wire manufacturers can't be the only ones aware of these magical properties if it's true.

How do you know? You make alot of statements with zero back-up other than your opinion. And you know about the saying regarding opinions.

[bikezappa]

[

Being a scientist in the field, please comment on what you hear.[/QUOTE]

I was just trying to avoid a pissing contest and trying not to comment on what he hears. If he hears a difference it's not because of the bogus science of dielectics as explained by the cable company. That's all I meant.

[hearingimpared]

This topic isn't on whether you hear a difference between 20 and 100 dollar cables.

This "research" is being used to sell cables worth thousands of dollars a foot in some instances. And, as William stated, if what these cable companies say is true, surely some independent researcher or non-affiliate would have research on this, and it would be taught at a university level... But, it isn't. Nor is it found in any textbook or research papers.

How the hell do you know that. Do you read everything taught at the university level? Do you read all the textbook and research papers . . . I seriously doubt it.

[NJPOLKER]

[

Being a scientist in the field, please comment on what you hear.

I was just trying to avoid a pissing contest and trying not to comment on what he hears. If he hears a difference it's not because of the bogus science of dielectics as explained by the cable company. That's all I meant.[/QUOTE]

Maybe one of you material scientists who seem to know lots on the subject can explain why the sound quality increases after a break-in period.
I still find it funny that you guys really think its all made up for the marketing of the products.

[bikezappa]

bikezappa have you ever worked with the exact wire used to manufacture cables?


I'm not sure what your question means.

Is Exact Wire a brand name?

Cu wire is Cu wire. The wire gauge and length determine the impedance characteristics of the speaker wire in the audio frequency range.

[NJPOLKER]

How the hell do you know that. Do you read everything taught at the university level? Do you read all the textbook and research papers . . . I seriously doubt it.

Its funny how people think they know everything about everything especially how these numerous cable companies spec there products.

[NJPOLKER]

My question is how firmiliar are you with say, AQ's wired/cable. I now you don't think it is generic copper. Not all wire/cable is manufactured the same.

[Lasareath]

I got my Shotgun S1's today, I have my 3910 on repeat and starting to break them in while I am at work.

[NJPOLKER]

I got my Shotgun S1's today, I have my 3910 on repeat and starting to break them in while I am at work.

Hey Sal
Its been awhile. Nice cables. I gotta get over to Roselle Pk to see you and hear some tunes.

[BigMac]

Some people will never hear the difference till they use Debrox (this stuff is amazing). This should be a mandatory product for those that say cables make no difference.:rolleyes:

[bikezappa]

but for now, I am willing to accept that we know as much about electricity as we do about how a plant grows, or human nutrition......which is not everything.......there are some things that we don't know......science is progressing but is far from a complete understanding of the universe.

So keep searching and experimenting with an open mind and don't be so scared of things that challenge your schema.

At school we debated the issue of what science is more accurate than the other. It is an interesting subject and changes with time. I would say confidently that we know much more about electricty than plants or human nutrition. The proof is that we can use the simple laws of EE to predict how very complicated circuits will work very accurately. However we can't predict with the same accuracy the effect of nutrition on people and how plants grow. Just my opinion.

The key to good science is to think up some theory and then get off your ass and do some experiemnets to prove or disprove your theory. The final step if you think you have proved your theory with experiments is to publish in the proper place your theory and experiments in detail and see if some one else can do the same experiments and gets the same resuilts.

The problem I had with the first post is that the science quoted violated 100 years or so of material science and experiments.

There are many theorys and opinions in audio but very few good experiments to prove the theorys.

[NJPOLKER]

Mac
What is Debrox?

[hearingimpared]

Mac
What is Debrox?

I think he meant DeOxit.

[NJPOLKER]

bikezappa
So why do cables/wires sound different/better after a period of break-in?

[BigMac]

Mac
What is Debrox?


This.:D Wife works at a doctors office and this is the product they use when cleaning out peoples ears. I tried it and it's amazing. A little weird seeing all the gunk that comes out that you thought was not in there.
http://666kb.com/i/banb7c5iz2yfuu4gf.jpg

[NJPOLKER]

I think he meant DeOxit.

Seems right. I really should buy some.

[NJPOLKER]

this.:d
http://666kb.com/i/banb7c5iz2yfuu4gf.jpg

beautiful :d

[bikezappa]

My question is how firmiliar are you with say, AQ's wired/cable. I now you don't think it is generic copper. Not all wire/cable is manufactured the same.

Not familar at all.

I do belive that all or 99.9% of the speaker wire, for example, is either stranded or solid core and it is all manufactured with the same method. The purity of the starter Cu material is also a variable. But that's it. No magic manufacturing process exists to my knowledge, I could be wrong.

[NJPOLKER]

bikezappa
So why do cables/wires sound different/better after a period of break-in?

Did you miss this question?

[bikezappa]

bikezappa
So why do cables/wires sound different/better after a period of break-in?

I have no idea why you hear a difference.

I know I didn't hear a difference when I experimented with cables many years ago when my hearing was better. I can hear differneces when I move speakers a small amount and I am very sensitive to amplifier balance.

[NJPOLKER]

Debrox my friend LOL

I know all the cable companies do not use burn-in/adjustment period's as selling points or as a marketing ploy. If anything it could be looked at as drawback. They all seem to say it makes a difference thats no BS and I'll bet the over all majority of, I'll call them audio guys, do hear a difference after some time on a cable.

[heiney9]

Being a scientist in the field, please comment on what you hear.

He and other "engineers and scientist types" and cable naysyaers don;t give a rats ass what they hear. If it doesn't measure differently then there is no difference, no matter what their ears hear.

They are 100% positive that there is a correlation between what they measure (or in this case don't measure) and what they hear (or don't hear in this case). One couldn;t possibly hear something which is either not easliy measured or NOT included in the measurements they feel reflect their opinion that cables/caps/connectors and all other associated items don't make any difference in reproducing a musical signal.

H9

[Face]

After comparing a pair of brand new cables to a pair of the same type with a few hundred hours on them, I experienced first hand that break in is real. For me, it wasn't as dramatic as some make it out to be, but it's there.

[dragon1952]

Not familar at all.

I do belive that all or 99.9% of the speaker wire, for example, is either stranded or solid core and it is all manufactured with the same method. The purity of the starter Cu material is also a variable. But that's it. No magic manufacturing process exists to my knowledge, I could be wrong......
Cu wire is Cu wire.

There are many different casting and refining processes used to manufacture copper, resulting in different purities and grain structures.

[bikezappa]

There are many different casting and refining processes used to manufacture copper, resulting in different purities and grain structures.

I don't disagree with that statement, but the end result will be the same resistivity for the Cu with a matching purity.

[bikezappa]

He and other "engineers and scientist types" and cable naysyaers don;t give a rats ass what they hear. If it doesn't measure differently then there is no difference, no matter what their ears hear.

They are 100% positive that there is a correlation between what they measure (or in this case don't measure) and what they hear (or don't hear in this case). One couldn;t possibly hear something which is either not easliy measured or NOT included in the measurements they feel reflect their opinion that cables/caps/connectors and all other associated items don't make any difference in reproducing a musical signal.

H9

It's statements like this that turn any logical discussion of audio equipment into a pissing contest. I never said any of those statements. And to lump all scientist "types" into your defined group is flawed. Who the hell designs your $1000/ft speaker cables? A scientist "type" or the janitor at the cable company? Who designs the $10,000 amplifier that you love? The EEs baby.

Rubish.

[WilliamM2]

bikezappa
So why do cables/wires sound different/better after a period of break-in?

You have yet to show any evidence that they do.

Look, I used to believe I heard differences, just as you do. Then we did testing blind. Everyone could hear the differences when we knew which cable we were listening to, and would go on and on about the differences. Somehow all those differences went away when the cables were hidden.

It's nothing new, it's called expectational bias. What causes it? Hard to say, could be the price, brand recognition, color, the feel of the cable in your hand, or dozens of other factors.

[NJPOLKER]

You have yet to show any evidence that they do.

Look, I used to believe I heard differences, just as you do. Then we did testing blind. Everyone could hear the differences when we knew which cable we were listening to, and would go on and on about the differences. Somehow all those differences went away when the cables were hidden.

It's nothing new, it's called expectational bias. What causes it? Hard to say, could be the price, brand recognition, color, the feel of the cable in your hand, or dozens of other factors.


I disagree with you and thats not right or wrong. No big deal. Your wrong though :p
Since the need for cables to go through a adjustment period/break-in is not a positive selling point why would the cable companies make it up?

[AudioGenics]

is it Memorex or is it Live.....

[WilliamM2]

I disagree with you and thats not right or wrong. No big deal. Your wrong though :p

Well, you can pretend all opinions are equal if you like. But I actually went to the trouble to find out for myself, you haven't.


Since the need for cables to go through a adjustment period/break-in is not a positive selling point why would the cable companies make it up?

Maybe not a selling point, but I bet it has a huge impact on the return rate.

[AudioGenics]

...enjoy the component and ultimate sound reproduction...

[NJPOLKER]

Well, you can pretend all opinions are equal if you like. But I actually went to the trouble to find out for myself, you haven't.



Maybe not a selling point, but I bet it has a huge impact on the return rate.

William,
Your wrong again. I have found out for myself, a few times. Each speaker cable I have used changes with time and each sound different.

I bet it does have a huge impact on the return rate because the buyers are not make fully aware of the adjustment time. So they plug them in and hear something different and return them not know of the break-in time.

[WilliamM2]

William,
Your wrong again. I have found out for myself, a few times. Each speaker cable I have used changes with time and each sound different.


Cool. What did you use to control bias in your testing? Or are you still just ignoring all that?

[Cpyder]

You have yet to show any evidence that they do.

Look, I used to believe I heard differences, just as you do. Then we did testing blind. Everyone could hear the differences when we knew which cable we were listening to, and would go on and on about the differences. Somehow all those differences went away when the cables were hidden.

It's nothing new, it's called expectational bias. What causes it? Hard to say, could be the price, brand recognition, color, the feel of the cable in your hand, or dozens of other factors.

I agree with this. Also, this may help some:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

This debate would not be difficult to end. Simply buy the same speaker wire you are currently using (one is new and one is used), and have a friend swap it in and out in a blind test. And you record what cable you think is which.

Edit: I know some of you dislike blind testing and feel it's not valid. In that case, you should complain to these people:

http://www.fda.gov/

They've been using these faulty testing techniques for years!

[cnh]

Turning into 'another' cable thread are we? I see Cpyder has jumped in too!

Here's something to think about boys and girls.

The PLACEBO effect is real and science has a piss poor explanation of WHY and HOW it occurs. Consider that the placebo effect has VERY real effects in MEDICINE! So you're testing a drug and guess what 24% of your population given the PLACEBO actually GET BETTER! Now how did that happen? It's PSYCHOLOGICAL...WELL HOW EXACTLY does that work! Outside of saying that there is a BLACK BOX relation between the mind and the body! Well...if that's so then guess what...medical science at least can't test THAT and the results are inconclusive because that BLACK BOX....the human MIND and SUBJECTIVITY just jumped the biological drug/science FENCE and threw in their noise!

Read and conclude what you will....and remember that while reading this my words themselves might be a PLACEBO effect!

cnh

[ahorvitz]

I agree with this. Also, this may help some:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

This debate would not be difficult to end. Simply buy the same speaker wire you are currently using (one is new and one is used), and have a friend swap it in and out in a blind test. And you record what cable you think is which.

Easy to settle... If/when you're in the Boston area, you're welcome to visit my home. I think I have enough old Rat Shack and M* cables (lower and mid-level stuff) around to demo them vs. speaker cable and ICs from BJC and Signal Cable, respectively. Obviously, we're not talking high end cables and ICs here, but I'll test them blind all day, or you're welcome to listen to and evaluate the subtleties of each. I'll bring in an impartial jury, or you bring your own.

[F1nut]

Ok, I did a blind A/B test to see if all cable naysayers sound the same and the results were no surprise, they all sound like blah, blah, blah.

[NJPOLKER]

easy to settle... If/when you're in the boston area, you're welcome to visit my home. I think i have enough old rat shack and m* cables (lower and mid-level stuff) around to demo them vs. Speaker cable and ics from bjc and signal cable, respectively. Obviously, we're not talking high end cables and ics here, but i'll test them blind all day, or you're welcome to listen to and evaluate the subtleties of each. I'll bring in an impartial jury, or you bring your own.

how about those red sox

[WilliamM2]

Easy to settle... If/when you're in the Boston area, you're welcome to visit my home. I think I have enough old Rat Shack and M* cables (lower and mid-level stuff) around to demo them vs. speaker cable and ICs from BJC and Signal Cable, respectively. Obviously, we're not talking high end cables and ICs here, but I'll test them blind all day, or you're welcome to listen to and evaluate the subtleties of each. I'll bring in an impartial jury, or you bring your own.

Hopefully someone will take you up on your offer. It's really an amazing claim, considering no one has done it successfully before. Good luck.

[NJPOLKER]

Cool. What did you use to control bias in your testing? Or are you still just ignoring all that?

William,
My ears tell me what is going on, period. It is too bad your hearing is not what is once was. Not once or twice but many times I have listened to cables including IC's and after adjustment period they sound better.

You still have not come up with a logical answer regarding the reason the cable manufactures state a need for an adjustment period needed till the cable performs to its fullest. When the customer is not properly informed about the adjustment period they return them hurting the bottom line of the manufacture. If there was no need for that period of time do you really think the manufactures would make that statement? Seriously, think about it.

Red Sox Red Baby or close as they have. I await your thoughts.

[Cpyder]

William,
My ears tell me what is going on, period. It is too bad your hearing is not what is once was. Not once or twice but many times I have listened to cables including IC's and after adjustment period they sound better.

You still have not come up with a logical answer regarding the reason the cable manufactures state a need for an adjustment period needed till the cable performs to its fullest. When the customer is not properly informed about the adjustment period they return them hurting the bottom line of the manufacture. If there was no need for that period of time do you really think the manufactures would make that statement? Seriously, think about it.

Red Sox Red Baby or close as they have. I await your thoughts.

Your ears and mind adapt to sounds over time. So, a system that may once sound good may, after time, sound great. There's a psych theory behind this but I'm not sure of the name of the top of my head.

[NJPOLKER]

Your ears and mind adapt to sounds over time. So, a system that may once sound good may, after time, sound great. There's a psych theory behind this but I'm not sure of the name of the top of my head.

Cpyder,
That's one of the dumbest responses to date and irrelevant.

[WilliamM2]

William,
My ears tell me what is going on, period. It is too bad your hearing is not what is once was. Not once or twice but many times I have listened to cables including IC's and after adjustment period they sound better.

So you are still ignoring bias. My hearing is fine, I still hear up to 18Khz. You?


You still have not come up with a logical answer regarding the reason the cable manufactures state a need for an adjustment period needed till the cable performs to its fullest.

Yes I did, you just ignored it. What would be even better, is if Audioquest could come up with a logical answer, after all, it's their claim, not mine.

[WilliamM2]

Cpyder,
That's one of the dumbest responses to date and irrelevant.


Only if you ignore all the evidence behind it. But you are good at that.

[Face]

Hopefully someone will take you up on your offer. It's really an amazing claim, considering no one has done it successfully before. Good luck.Nobody has been able to do what?

I've had blind speaker cable, interconnects, capacitor and CD player comparisons here before. Once in a while we find a pair of components that sound very similar, but there are other times where the differences are very obvious. Maybe you should try some different gear to compare or there's faults elsewhere.

[AudioGenics]

adaptation , Acclimatization ..... existentialism

[NJPOLKER]

So you are still ignoring bias. My hearing is fine, I still hear up to 18Khz. You?



Yes I did, you just ignored it. What would be even better, is if Audioquest could come up with a logical answer, after all, it's their claim, not mine.


William,
The reason you have very little creditability is because "you" make claims that are just that "claims" with nothing to back it up.

As for AQ they have the logical answers posted on the web site. As do the majority of other manufactures.

My ears work better than your because I can hear the differences between cables/IC and you can't. You can't argue that because you admit you can't hear the differences.

[NJPOLKER]

What FACE posted is a perfect example of you making "claims" that hold no water whats so ever.

[Flash21]

I have done plenty of blind testing where a friend switched the cables and I did not know which was in play...it wasn't hard to hear the differences, discuss them, and then find out which was which.

"Expectational bias" works both ways, you know...

[megasat16]

Anyone trying to do A/B or double blind test should try high sensitivity speakers with at least 100dB sensitivity. May be the subtle differences can be heard since speakers are sensors to the ears.

There are cables that makes a difference and there are cables that doesn't make a difference depending on the type of materials, how good the material is purified, what kind of consideration is taken to preserve signal integrity, and how well it's insulation is made to prevent outside noise; etc.

Some are based on Engineering Marvels and some are pure marketing BS. The Cables With very High $ price tag may have both the Engineering Marvels and the marketing BS.

[WilliamM2]

William,
The reason you have very little creditability is because "you" make claims that are just that "claims" with nothing to back it up.


Where's your backup? Or faces for that matter? All you have stated is "I can hear it" over and over. You do realise that that is not evidence at all, don't you? Give me one link to a successfull DBT, or a single peer reviewed paper that states there are audible differences between cables, let alone break-in of said cables.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=941184&highlight=speaker+wire+test

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=60159.msg539789#msg539789

http://web.archive.org/web/20020214075205/http://www.oakland.edu/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm

http://www.verber.com/mark/ce/cables.html

http://www.ethanwiner.com/myths.html

[NJPOLKER]

Synergy is key, at least thats one of the things I have learned.

[NJPOLKER]

Where's your backup? Or faces for that matter? All you have stated is "I can hear it" over and over. You do realise that that is not evidence at all, don't you? Give me one link to a successfull DBT, or a single peer reviewed paper that states there are audible differences between cables, let alone break-in of said cables.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=941184&highlight=speaker+wire+test

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=60159.msg539789#msg539789

http://web.archive.org/web/20020214075205/http://www.oakland.edu/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm

http://www.verber.com/mark/ce/cables.html

http://www.ethanwiner.com/myths.html



Do you know how to use the Forum Search feature here? Use it and you may learn something.

[WilliamM2]

I have done plenty of blind testing where a friend switched the cables and I did not know which was in play...it wasn't hard to hear the differences, discuss them, and then find out which was which.

"Expectational bias" works both ways, you know...

So you think it's a DBT when a friend switches the cables? Not hardly.

[Cpyder]

William,
The reason you have very little creditability is because "you" make claims that are just that "claims" with nothing to back it up.

As for AQ they have the logical answers posted on the web site. As do the majority of other manufactures.

My ears work better than your because I can hear the differences between cables/IC and you can't. You can't argue that because you admit you can't hear the differences.

I think he has way more credibility than someone whose sole "research" is "i can hear a difference" and some advertising from the company who sells the cable. Why can you not just post some sort of peer reviewed paper, something from a textbook, or anything other than AQ info. Everyone and their mom knows that advertising for any product stretches the truth or flat out makes it up.

[bikezappa]

[QUOTE=cnh;
The PLACEBO effect is real and science has a piss poor explanation of WHY and HOW it occurs. Consider that the placebo effect has VERY real effects in MEDICINE! So you're testing a drug and guess what 24% of your population given the PLACEBO actually GET BETTER! Now how did that happen? It's PSYCHOLOGICAL...WELL HOW EXACTLY does that work!
cnh[/QUOTE]

This all true and has been documented. and is fascinating. People given a placebos have changed there body chemistry and improved just like the people given the good working drug. The mind is more powerfull than we think maybe. The brain has the ability to produce powerful pharmaceuticals. This would explain the placebo effect and could be an answer. The placebo effect could explain why the witch doctor with his mask and dancing could help peoples brain produce the required drug to improve their health. Also consider that the setting of the large hospital building and the big tube you slide into may have an effect on the person which could also be a strong placebo effect.

To my knowledge no one has demonstrated that they can tell the differance between speaker wires with the same gauge. The test is very difficult to set up properly. If any one knows of sech a scientific test that shows that some one is able to tell the difference between speaker wires please tell me. These BD tests are not like what F1 is describing. You can listen to each speaker wire for as Long as you want with Any music you want and switch back and forth between them for as long as you want and even know what wire is playing to learn the system characteristics.

No one can tell the difference yet.

[NJPOLKER]

I think he has way more credibility than someone whose sole "research" is "i can hear a difference" and some advertising from the company who sells the cable. Why can you not just post some sort of peer reviewed paper, something from a textbook, or anything other than AQ info. Everyone and their mom knows that advertising for any product stretches the truth or flat out makes it up.


Your another one! Do you know how to use the Forum Search here? Use it and do some reading and you never know you may learn something.
Or are you too lazy to do it? There is a lot of information available here that is available to you.
What is more important than someone actually hearing a difference? I think nothing could be more important because thats what this is all about. A textbook you gotta be kidding. Thats why guys like you have no creditability.

[NJPOLKER]

This all true and has been documented. and is fascinating. People given a placebos have changed there body chemistry and improved just like the people given the good working drug. The mind is more powerfull than we think maybe. The brain has the ability to produce powerful pharmaceuticals. This would explain the placebo effect and could be an answer. The placebo effect could explain why the witch doctor with his mask and dancing could help peoples brain produce the required drug to improve their health. Also consider that the setting of the large hospital building and the big tube you slide into may have an effect on the person which could also be a strong placebo effect.

To my knowledge no one has demonstrated that they can tell the differance between speaker wires with the same gauge. The test is very difficult to set up properly. If any one knows of sech a scientific test that shows that some one is able to tell the difference between speaker wires please tell me. These BD tests are not like what F1 is describing. You can listen to each speaker wire for as Long as you want with Any music you want and switch back and forth between them for as long as you want and even know what wire is playing to learn the system characteristics.

No one can tell the difference yet.


I gotta tell you, your a trip.

[WilliamM2]

What is more important than someone actually hearing a difference? I think nothing could be more important because thats what this is all about. A textbook you gotta be kidding. Thats why guys like you have no creditability.

Who actually heard a difference? Can you verify it in any way? Your complete ignorance of the science and research of the subject gives you no credibility at all.

So can you "back up" your claims, or not? Just one link, or are you too lazy?

[Cpyder]

Your another one! Do you know how to use the Forum Search here? Use it and do some reading and you never know you may learn something.
Or are you too lazy to do it? There is a lot of information available here that is available to you.
What is more important than someone actually hearing a difference? I think nothing could be more important because thats what this is all about. A textbook you gotta be kidding. Thats why guys like you have no creditability.

Sorry. I suppose being a chemical engineer with a firm background in the physical sciences also gives me no credibility. Me and my damn textbooks too!

[Face]

Would you take engineering advice from a psychologist?

[Cpyder]

Would you take engineering advice from a psychologist?

I'd probably take physics advice from an engineer.

[Cpyder]

That fact is, stop posting worthless garbage without a research proving that dielectrics change over time which causing an audio signal to change, and then unchanges after no use.. Just stop. No more posts without facts.

[DarqueKnight]

Easy to settle... If/when you're in the Boston area, you're welcome to visit my home. I think I have enough old Rat Shack and M* cables (lower and mid-level stuff) around to demo them vs. speaker cable and ICs from BJC and Signal Cable, respectively. Obviously, we're not talking high end cables and ICs here, but I'll test them blind all day, or you're welcome to listen to and evaluate the subtleties of each. I'll bring in an impartial jury, or you bring your own.

No, I don't think it is easy to settle.

I would like to begin by saying that blind trials are valid experimental tools for some situations and not valid for others. I do not think they are valid for evaluating audio equipment. I will explain why.

Blind tests exist to do two things:

1. Remove observer bias (i.e., the observer is influenced by the expectation that a known attribute of an item will produce favorable results or the observer has some conscious or unconscious preference for a specific attribute).

Example: An observer is asked to compare two amplifiers: one with a sticker showing a price of $10,000 and another with a sticker showing a price of $1,000. The listener could have high expectations that the $10,000 amp will be so much better. Similar to this, a brothel customer might have an expectation that a $1,000 an hour hooker would provide a better "experience" than a $100 an hour hooker.


and

2. Remove placebo effect (i.e., the listener is "tricked" into perceiving or realizing a non-existent benefit). Placebo effect depends on how susceptible the subject is to the power of suggestion.

Example: The marketing literature for an audio company's top of the line interconnect cable promises that it provides twice as much clarity for only a 20% increase in cost over the company's next lowest model. In actuality, the top of the line cable only has a prettier jacket and shinier connectors.

The opposite of the blind test is the open trial test where two similar things are compared to determine which is most effective.

Blind trials are supposed to eliminate observer bias, but I would ask you, how can you eliminate bias from the evaluation of subjective stimuli? What I mean is, we are talking about electronic or electro-mechanical devices whose sole purpose is the reproduction of a musical performance...right? The audio system's reason for being is the creation of an aural illusion...right? How we perceive and accept that aural illusion depends on our hearing ability, listening preferences, listening biases, listening environment, and the quality of the aural illusion. In drug trails, not allowing a patient to know which drug, if any, he/she is taking is enough of a control factor for valid results. In audio trials, not allowing a listener to know what equipment he/she is listening to is not enough of a control factor for valid results. Indeed, there are too many factors which preclude effective control.

There are just too many biases and variables in both the mechanical reproduction of music and in the listener's perception of that reproduced music for blind trials to provide accurate results. Here are two examples on the listener perception side:

1. Two amplifiers differ only in the way they position instruments within the sound stage. A listening panel is composed of people who have no interest in a spacious sound stage, they couldn't possibly care less about it, and they just don't listen for it. They are only interested in clarity and detail. Both amps sound identical to them.

2. Two preamplifiers differ only in the quality and quantity of higher harmonics above 12 kHz. A listening panel, composed of people whose hearing sensitivity drops precipitously above 11 kHz, say both preamps sound the same.

Here are two examples on the equipment side:

1. Just for curiosity's sake, I inserted my Cary CD 306 Pro SACD player into my master bedroom system. It replaced a Sony DVP-S9000ES DVD/CD/SACD player. In that system, the Cary provided slightly more detail on some music. On other music, I could not hear a difference between them. When the Cary and Sony were compared in my two channel system, the Cary beat down the Sony to the consistency of lumpy gravy. A blind trial between these two SACD players on this audio system in this room would have produced misleading results.

2. People have tried audio grade fuses in speakers and heard no difference between them and the stock 50 cent fuses. They concluded that audio grade fuses are not worth the money. After continually reading about audio grade fuses, they decide to try them in a preamp and a power amp. Boom! the magic appears. They scratch their head and put audio grade fuses back in the speakers and...nothing...nada...zip...no difference at all. Rather than the audio grade fuses being "no good", they just work better in some gear than others. A blind trial between these the audio grade fuses and the stock fuses with these speakers would have produced misleading results.

Lets expound a bit further on placebo. Placebo is all about trickery...right? However, my two channel system tricks me every day. It tricks me into hearing sounds between, in front of, far to the side of, behind, and sometimes above the speakers. Look, I know full well the sound is coming from the speaker drivers, but the speakers seem to "disappear". Uh oh...my two channel system is a big placebo!:eek:

It seems to me that when we get rid of bias and get rid of placebo, which is what blind trials attempt to do, we are actually working against the fundamental reasons for the existence of high quality, high resolution music reproduction systems!

There are some situations in life where a blind test is more appropriate. Drug effects is one. Here is another:

Two hookers that cost the same, but one is far, far more physically attractive than the other. Most (heterosexual) men are disproportionately influenced by a woman's appearance, even to point of ignoring serious character flaws. The average man would need to evaluate each hooker's sexual performance in a totally dark room to avoid being unduly influenced by the better appearance of the more attractive hooker.

If a totally objective man were shown two hookers who were equally attractive, but one was 10 times more expensive than the other, an open trial would be more appropriate because the only differentiating factor would be their sexual performance. This fellow would not be favorably influenced by the higher priced hooker's higher price. She either feels better to him or she does not. Such good analogies.:)

Now, the question you have to ask yourself is: "Can I trust my ears?" If you can trust your ears and you are pursuing audio for what sounds good to you regardless of brand name or sticker price, then the open trial test is best for you.

On the other hand, if you can't trust your ears, if you are highly susceptible to suggestion and/or you are pursuing audio for bragging rights, status or some other reason that has nothing to do with what really sounds good to your ears, then a blind testing method would be more appropriate. This will most probably save you some money. However, you will most certainly miss out on some good gear.

In audio, all it comes down to anyway is do you like what you hear? If an audio product enhances your enjoyment of this leisure time extravagance, then go ahead and enjoy it...even if it it hasn't been "approved" by the audio reviewers, hasn't run the gauntlet of blind testing, and hasn't been run through near destructive laboratory testing. You don't need anyone to tell you what sounds good to you...do you?

Respectfully submitted 07/14/09.

[AudioGenics]

hmmmm....
hookers.
that must be another brand of woofers.

interesting point of view

[hearingimpared]

Edit: I know some of you dislike blind testing and feel it's not valid. In that case, you should complain to these people:

http://www.fda.gov/

They've been using these faulty testing techniques for years!

That's a completely different ballgame.

[NJPOLKER]

Sorry. I suppose being a chemical engineer with a firm background in the physical sciences also gives me no credibility. Me and my damn textbooks too!

Why does being a chemical engineer make you an authority on speaker cables/IC's? It does not give you credibility thats for sure. I've never heard a text book play music.

[NJPOLKER]

That fact is, stop posting worthless garbage without a research proving that dielectrics change over time which causing an audio signal to change, and then unchanges after no use.. Just stop. No more posts without facts.

Facts? I suppose you have facts? BS Most people don't need anything more than listening to hear all the facts needed.

[WilliamM2]

I've never heard a text book play music.

Have you ever read a textbook you understood?

You accused us of not backing up our claims. I posted a few, have you found anything yet? Where are your facts?

[NJPOLKER]

No one has come up with a logical answer regarding the reason the cable manufactures state a need for an adjustment period needed till the cable performs to its fullest. When the customer is not properly informed about the adjustment period they return them hurting the bottom line of the manufacture. If there was no need for that period of time do you really think the manufactures would make that statement? Seriously, think about it.

[DarqueKnight]

To me, the idea that blind trials are applicable to audio are as ignorant and obnoxious as this widely believed naysayers axiom about power cables:

"What good can a few feet of boutique cable do for the power signal after it has traveled through miles of ordinary copper on the power grid and through the ordinary copper in house wiring?"

Naysayers who propagate this nonsense think they are looking smart, but in harsh reality, they are only demonstrating that they are ignorant to the fact that a properly designed and shielded power cord can do much to clean up a power signal after it leaves the wall...just as a good water filter can provide additional cleaning to water that comes out of the tap.

The audio blind trial proponent conveniently ignores, or perhaps is actually not cognizant of, the fact that an audio system's job is to create an illusion and that the illusion created is a fragile one. Moving ones head too far to the left or right or sitting too close or too far from the speakers can diminish the stereo sound field or cause it to collapse altogether.

For some people, the three dimensional sound field illusion created by a good sound system comes into focus immediately upon being seated in the "stereo sweet spot". For others, it takes a few seconds or a few minutes for the sound stage to "gel".

Now, consider those individuals whose ears need a few moments to "come into focus" and then consider the results of putting such individuals in a situation where equipment is being rapidly or even instantaneously switched back and forth.

I realize that many naysayers have no real interest in audio (whether high performance, mid-fi or otherwise). Trying to reason with them is futile. Some simply have belligerent personalities. If they weren't arguing about audio, they would be arguing about something else that they know little to nothing about. Audiophiles are just a popular and easy target for ridicule. It is easy to come on the Internet and grab some attention and perhaps some camaraderie from kindred spirits:

"Yeah...they spend all that money, but they can't prove that they can actually hear what they say they can hear. I'm way smarter than them. My Yorx 8-track sounds just as good as the stuff they spent thousands of dollars on."

[NJPOLKER]

William you posted NO facts just same old Blah Blah Blah, opinions from what I saw. Not that opinions are bad but you don't seem to give other people's opinion any credit. As I remember DarqueKnight did a nice thread on this subject awhile ago and if you look around you'll find it.
Are you trying to tell me you let a text book tell you what sounds good, better, best. Yup thats what I figured.

[NJPOLKER]

Have fun. I gotta go back and watch the All Star game.

[WilliamM2]

William you posted NO facts just same old Blah Blah Blah, opinions from what I saw. Not that opinions are bad but you don't seem to give other people's opinion any credit. As I remember DarqueKnight did a nice thread on this subject awhile ago and if you look around you'll find it.
Are you trying to tell me you let a text book tell you what sounds good, better, best. Yup thats what I figured.


Apparently you can't read. Those weren't all opinions, there were several DBT listed in the links, all with null results. Including one that was done at the request of MIT. Even the people from MIT could not identify their own cables. Nice try.

Find anything to back up your claims yet?

[SolidSqual]

DarqueKnight, seriously, you need to put a book together with a collection of your work. Perhaps something that can finally kick that stupid book my Robert Harley to the floor.

[hearingimpared]

That fact is, stop posting worthless garbage without a research proving that dielectrics change over time which causing an audio signal to change, and then unchanges after no use.. Just stop. No more posts without facts.

Here is a fact. I own a Spectral DMC 10 G preamp which doesn't have a power switch because it is supposed to be on all the time (20 years yep). . . all solid state. The engineers at Spectral are some of the finest in the world. I was told by an engineer there that if I power off the pre that when I power it back on I should wait atleast 45 minutes for the caps to reform and the components to stabilize before listening. He also told me that I would get the best sound from it if I wait TWO DAYS before listening.

That is a fact!!!

[WilliamM2]

Here is a fact. I own a Spectral DMC 10 G preamp which doesn't have a power switch because it is supposed to be on all the time (20 years yep). . . all solid state. The engineers at Spectral are some of the finest in the world. I was told by an engineer there that if I power off the pre that when I power it back on I should wait atleast 45 minutes for the caps to reform and the components to stabilize before listening. He also told me that I would get the best sound from it if I wait TWO DAYS before listening.

That is a fact!!!

What does that have to do with cables?

Although I would think that some of the finest engineers in the world could choose components that aren't so unstable, and didn't require two days to sound good.

[hearingimpared]

What does that have to do with cables?

Although I would think that some of the finest engineers in the world could choose components that aren't so unstable, and didn't require two days to sound good.

Spectral uses the finest materials available in their products. They just know the true science behind dialectrics, carbon, and all the other materials used to make the components.

PS: Spectral is not just an audio manufacturer although they are very high end. William what are your thoughts on Keith Johnson?

[Face]

Although I would think that some of the finest engineers in the world could choose components that aren't so unstable, and didn't require two days to sound good.
You obviously know nothing about passive components.

[dragon1952]

I agree with this. Also, this may help some:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

This debate would not be difficult to end. Simply buy the same speaker wire you are currently using (one is new and one is used), and have a friend swap it in and out in a blind test. And you record what cable you think is which.

Edit: I know some of you dislike blind testing and feel it's not valid. In that case, you should complain to these people:

http://www.fda.gov/

They've been using these faulty testing techniques for years!

Another example of arrogance from the scientific crowd. They always provide these 'educational' links like everyone else is too stupid to know about them. Yes...we've never been to college, never taken Psych 101, don't know how to Google, never read about double-blind testing (or it's inherent flaws), never heard of the placebo effect, and the list goes on.

[AudioGenics]

It's All Lies and That's the Truth

[Cpyder]

Most of the latest posts are getting way off topic. No one is arguing anything about break in periods of equipment, or saying the quality of cables is meaningless.

The argument here is whether or not the dielectric of a speaker wire changes over time due to the current, affecting the sound coming out through the speakers. (And then after days of not using that same wire, the sound quality changes back to original quality) Stop bringing up receivers that use solid state technology and so forth. It's about AQ's claim on the speaker wire and breaking in due to a changing dielectric and whether the claim holds any water.

I'm not knocking on high equipment and I am in love with Audiophilia.

Njpolker - You're arguments and input are very childish. You keep making claims without any supporting evidence. Why is it so hard to include a link to anything supporting your claims?

[F1nut]

It doesn't matter, the believers will continue to know the truth and the naysayers will continue their membership in the Flat Earth Society.

Time to move on.

[SolidSqual]

Hey Cpyder,

Thanks to your comments and logic, I just want to let you know that I cancelled my order of MIT Shotgun S3 ICs and Speakers Cables and decided to stick with my Signal Cables. Why waste the money, right? People like me (highly educated but without science degree), whether others admit it or not, depend on people like you to make sure their systems sound good. Thanks for convincing me.

Mike

[DarqueKnight]

The reason I started this thread was when I read this information on Audioquest's web site I knew some will find it educational, I did.

The US Patent and Trademark Office granted AudioQuest’s Dielectric-Bias System a patent (US Patent No.7,126,055) on October 24, 2006. The title of the patent application was "Apparatus and methods for dielectric bias system".

Those interested in the technical details of Audioquest's Dielectric Bias System (DBS) can go to the US Patent and Trademark website and read or download the filing documents (www.uspto.gov).

This is an excerpt from a press release on the Stereophile.com website which informed that Audioquest prevailed in a patent infringement lawsuit brought by Monster Cable, Inc:

"Monster's suit alleged that AudioQuest's Earth Feature and Circular Array cables infringed upon its mid-1990s cable-biasing system, in which a coaxial cable leaving a component was energized with voltage, which was then removed before the signal entered another component or loudspeaker. AudioQuest's DBS was not similar at all, argued the Irvine, CA–based manufacturer, since it did not employ coaxial cable nor did the biasing charge coexist with the audio signal, being carried instead by the dielectric material within the cables."

The full text of Stereophile's press release can be found here: http://stereophile.com/news/010807aqmonster (http://stereophile.com/news/010807aqmonster).

Enjoy.

[Cpyder]

Hey Cpyder,

Thanks to your comments and logic, I just want to let you know that I cancelled my order of MIT Shotgun S3 ICs and Speakers Cables and decided to stick with my Signal Cables. Why waste the money, right? People like me (highly educated but without science degree), whether others admit it or not, depend on people like you to make sure their systems sound good. Thanks for convincing me.

Mike

Can you read? I'm not saying good cables are pointless. I am only saying AQ's claim about the dielectric is.

[Cpyder]

The US Patent and Trademark Office granted AudioQuest’s Dielectric-Bias System a patent (US Patent No.7,126,055) on October 24, 2006. The title of the patent application was "Apparatus and methods for dielectric bias system".

Those interested in the technical details of Audioquest's Dielectric Bias System (DBS) can go to the US Patent and Trademark website and read or download the filing documents (www.uspto.gov).

This is an excerpt from a press release on the Stereophile.com website which informed that Audioquest prevailed in a patent infringement lawsuit brought by Monster Cable, Inc:

"Monster's suit alleged that AudioQuest's Earth Feature and Circular Array cables infringed upon its mid-1990s cable-biasing system, in which a coaxial cable leaving a component was energized with voltage, which was then removed before the signal entered another component or loudspeaker. AudioQuest's DBS was not similar at all, argued the Irvine, CA–based manufacturer, since it did not employ coaxial cable nor did the biasing charge coexist with the audio signal, being carried instead by the dielectric material within the cables."

The full text of Stereophile's press release can be found here: http://stereophile.com/news/010807aqmonster (http://stereophile.com/news/010807aqmonster).

Enjoy.

Did you even read the patent? If so go back and read the original post. They are not referring to their DBS system in that statement. They said all audio cables' dielectrics need to break in and that the audio signal will change eventually. This patent is for a system that applies a charge to the dielectric.

[Keiko]

~yawn~

[SolidSqual]

Can you read? I'm not saying good cables are pointless. I am only saying AQ's claim about the dielectric is.

LOL, I'm totally bullshitting you and evidently unsuccessfully illustrating that no one gives a damn about your opinion or your scientific consensus. My Shottys will arrive in a few weeks.

[Lasareath]

Hey Sal
Its been awhile. Nice cables. I gotta get over to Roselle Pk to see you and hear some tunes.


Come on over!!!

I'm home every monday for the summer.

[Lasareath]

That fact is, stop posting worthless garbage without a research proving that dielectrics change over time which causing an audio signal to change, and then unchanges after no use.. Just stop. No more posts without facts.


I learned about this in Vo-tech 20 years ago, Wires get charged and they sound differently when that charge disapears.

[Cpyder]

LOL, I'm totally bullshitting you and evidently unsuccessfully illustrating that no one gives a damn about your opinion or your scientific consensus. My Shottys will arrive in a few weeks.

I know you are insulting me in this post but I honestly laughed and took it in good humor. :) Let me know how you like your Shottys.

[nduitch]

[QUOTE=F1nut;1111252]It doesn't matter, the believers will continue to know the truth and the naysayers will continue their membership in the Flat Earth Society.

I'm pretty sure that the claims of the "naysayers," or in this debate... Scientists,
aren't the "Flat Earth Society" type. Flip it around.

[F1nut]

Damn, I thought I put you on the BOZO list already.....oh well, I'll fix that right after this.

I'm 100% sure that you're a day late and a dollar short again.

Bye.

[nduitch]

Damn, I thought I put you on the BOZO list already.....oh well, I'll fix that right after this.

I'm 100% sure that you're a day late and a dollar short again.

Bye.

Congrats on reaching the 18,000 post milestone. You must know everything by now.;)

[CoolJazz]

If the heart of the matter is about dielectrics changing over time, then that's been settled for about a century!

Ask anybody that's been around the high voltage stuff about how dangerous old capacitors are. When new, it's not the same as the old ones. When you remove one, it's tradition and just plan safety to strap the caps terminals together for storage. But, if you only dissipate the charge and put it away, it can later kill you. It's because the dielectric changes in use!

Now the flat earth'ers will argue that maybe HV causes that, but the real difference is that they store such a significant charge. The amount of residual charge capability in a jacket can't compare...but it doesn't mean it's not there. I would think it to be fairly well accepted that the insulating material on the wire, the jacket, does have effects. Teflon is pretty well known to impart less effects that the cheap stuff.

I've noticed that the guys that don't hear a difference are usually the ones with poorly setup speakers, don't sit in the sweet spot, use an iPod as a music source and are in audio for the impressive, move the earth spl's...or just use it as background music.

On the issue of double blind and visual biases, I wonder if the reverse isn't more true of the flat landers...they have a bias for cheap and stuggle mightly to determine that everything is all the same...so they don't have to worry about having the commitment to spending money!! And everytime the medical part of it comes up, I have to laugh thinking of all the goofed up drugs on the market and all the advertising claims from them!! Whew...what a model to hold up as perfection!!

CoolJazz

[SolidSqual]

If the heart of the matter is about dielectrics changing over time, then that's been settled for about a century!

Ask anybody that's been around the high voltage stuff about how dangerous old capacitors are. When new, it's not the same as the old ones. When you remove one, it's tradition and just plan safety to strap the caps terminals together for storage. But, if you only dissipate the charge and put it away, it can later kill you. It's because the dielectric changes in use!

Now the flat earth'ers will argue that maybe HV causes that, but the real difference is that they store such a significant charge. The amount of residual charge capability in a jacket can't compare...but it doesn't mean it's not there. I would think it to be fairly well accepted that the insulating material on the wire, the jacket, does have effects. Teflon is pretty well known to impart less effects that the cheap stuff.

I've noticed that the guys that don't hear a difference are usually the ones with poorly setup speakers, don't sit in the sweet spot, use an iPod as a music source and are in audio for the impressive, move the earth spl's...or just use it as background music.

On the issue of double blind and visual biases, I wonder if the reverse isn't more true of the flat landers...they have a bias for cheap and stuggle mightly to determine that everything is all the same...so they don't have to worry about having the commitment to spending money!! And everytime the medical part of it comes up, I have to laugh thinking of all the goofed up drugs on the market and all the advertising claims from them!! Whew...what a model to hold up as perfection!!

CoolJazz

I think you make a good point here, specifically with regards to the money. You don't have to be loaded to have a good system, but I believe some people feel better belittling someone's expensive system so they don't feel inferior about their own. It's basic dick-waving at its best.

[hearingimpared]

The argument here is whether or not the dielectric of a speaker wire changes over time due to the current, affecting the sound coming out through the speakers. (And then after days of not using that same wire, the sound quality changes back to original quality) Stop bringing up receivers that use solid state technology and so forth. It's about AQ's claim on the speaker wire and breaking in due to a changing dielectric and whether the claim holds any water.



It's all related.

[hearingimpared]

Where's your backup? Or faces for that matter? All you have stated is "I can hear it" over and over. You do realise that that is not evidence at all, don't you? Give me one link to a successfull DBT, or a single peer reviewed paper that states there are audible differences between cables, let alone break-in of said cables.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=941184&highlight=speaker+wire+test

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=60159.msg539789#msg539789

http://web.archive.org/web/20020214075205/http://www.oakland.edu/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm

http://www.verber.com/mark/ce/cables.html

http://www.ethanwiner.com/myths.html

Those links prove nothing except for the bias of the controller. Plus it is mostly forum tests. You can find the same tests here on the Polk forum with opposite results. Also there is a Phd in EE here on Club Polk who keeps disproving your "theory" and you keep ignoring him. I'll take his writings over your forum testing links any day.

You keep pulling up the same BS. I'll bet for every double-blind test result there are just as many test results by cable reviewers that disprove double blind testing in the audio world and yes that includes cable.

Come up with something new and real proof for once.

[bikezappa]

Where's your backup? Or faces for that matter? All you have stated is "I can hear it" over and over. You do realise that that is not evidence at all, don't you? Give me one link to a successfull DBT, or a single peer reviewed paper that states there are audible differences between cables, let alone break-in of said cables.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=941184&highlight=speaker+wire+test

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=60159.msg539789#msg539789

http://web.archive.org/web/20020214075205/http://www.oakland.edu/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm

http://www.verber.com/mark/ce/cables.html

http://www.ethanwiner.com/myths.html

William and others, they have no science back ground and they are ruled by their opinions and what they hear. No amount of testing will show them that ears can be fooled and that salesmen are not scientists. To most people science is boring and to detailed to bother with. VooDoo science is much more easy to quote, explain and requires very little effort especially if you can print a scope trace of a line voltage.

They are happy switching cables and they may infact hear something I or you don't. But the bottom line is that I have audio equipment to listen to music not cables. Don't get wound up trying to explain that, at best, these incredabling small audio differences mean nothing to the musical experience.

Maybe if these people had tone controls to play with they wouldn't need to buy new cables to change the frequency response of the audio equipment.

These dicussions start out well but very quickly circle the drain into name calling, one liners and verbal bullying.

You can't push rope.

[hearingimpared]

William and others, they have no science back ground and they are ruled by their opinions and what they hear. No amount of testing will show them that ears can be fooled and that salesmen are not scientists. To most people science is boring and to detailed to bother with. VooDoo science is much more easy to quote, explain and requires very little effort especially if you can print a scope trace of a line voltage.

They are happy switching cables and they may infact hear something I or you don't. But the bottom line is that I have audio equipment to listen to music not cables. Don't get wound up trying to explain that, at best, these incredabling small audio differences mean nothing to the musical experience.

Maybe if these people had tone controls to play with they wouldn't need to buy new cables to change the frequency response of the audio equipment.

These dicussions start out well but very quickly circle the drain into name calling, one liners and verbal bullying.

You can't push rope.

You keep ignoring the PHd in EE Darqueknight.

[heiney9]

Took my MIT's out and put in some Signal Cable. Signals sound good, but the MIT's sound better. Didn't take long to put the MIT's back in.

[DarqueKnight]

It's all related.

Exactly. But if someone's only interest in audio is arguing with audiophiles, then, of course, such basic information is counter to their goals. To reiterate:




I realize that many naysayers have no real interest in audio (whether high performance, mid-fi or otherwise). Trying to reason with them is futile. Some simply have belligerent personalities. If they weren't arguing about audio, they would be arguing about something else that they know little to nothing about. Audiophiles are just a popular and easy target for ridicule.

I gave the patent number (7,126,055) for AudioQuest's Dielectric Bias System and a link to the US Patent Office in post #131 (http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1111268&postcount=131) of this thread. Here is a direct link to the summary page of the patent filing: AudioQuest DBS Patent Summary (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PTXT&p=1&p=1&S1=7126055&OS=7126055&RS=7126055). The 20 page patent filing can be read and downloaded by clicking on the "Images" tab at the top of the page. You will need graphics software capable of viewing "TIFF" format files in order to read the down-loadable files. You will also need a "TIFF" format browser plugin to be able to read the TIFF format files online.

The following quotes are taken from the description section of the patent summary. It should be crystal clear that the Dielectric Bias System was invented to remove the need for repeated cable break in by keeping a controlled voltage across the cable dielectric.

The "Field of Invention" subsection states:

"The present invention relates generally to methods and apparatus of connecting and communicating signals between electrical devices. More particularly, the present invention relates to biasing a dielectric with an electrical or electrostatic potential to reduce undesirable electrical properties of the material such that signal quality between the electrical devices is enhanced. The invention has special utility within the field of audio and video equipment and signal transmission."


The 7th and 8th paragraphs under the "Background of Invention" subsection state:

"Other design and performance aspects include cable "run-in." Cable "run-in" refers to the process by which a cable eventually comes to a "steady" electrical state (including a relatively "stable" condition of the cable's dielectric material). The cable's transmission properties change as its dielectric material is exposed to various electrical charges. Similar to the charging of a capacitor, transmitting a desired signal over a cable can impose a potential across the cable's dielectric material that changes material properties of the dielectric. The process of "charging" the cable impacts the cable's transmission properties. However, once the cable is charged, it is in a relatively steady or stable electrical state.

Cable "run-in" is often mistakenly referred to as "break-in." However, "break-in" is more properly used to describe a mechanical change, e.g., engines, loudspeakers, and phono cartridge suspensions "break-in" during their initial periods of use. In contrast, cable "run-in" may be somewhat analogous to engine oil that warms during engine use to more efficiently and effectively protect the engine from damage cause by heat and/or friction. Just as that oil warming can reoccur every time that the engine is started, cable "run-in" (the gradual forming of the cable's transmission properties) can recur every time a signal is imposed on the cable."

I use AudioQuest DBS interconnect and speaker cables in my two channel system. They work very well.

[bikezappa]

Patents mean nothing and are not required to be scientifically sound.

For example, there are many patents on perpetual motion machines. Does anyone want to buy one?

If some one has a PHd in EE that doesn't mean they are telling the truth or know what they are talking about.

This applies to me and every one else on theis forum.

If however you site a scientific publication or text book then you are giving valid data for information.

[NJPOLKER]

I still wonder about this.


No one has come up with a logical answer regarding the reason the cable manufactures state a need for an adjustment period needed till the cable performs to its fullest. When the customer is not properly informed about the adjustment period they return them hurting the bottom line of the manufacture. If there was no need for that period of time do you really think the manufactures would make that statement? Seriously, think about it.

[Flash21]

FWIW, the issuance of a patent in no way is proof that a concept, idea, or design works, it is simply saying this is a new and unique idea from all other registered with the Patent Office.

[Flash21]

I have done plenty of blind testing where a friend switched the cables and I did not know which was in play...it wasn't hard to hear the differences, discuss them, and then find out which was which.

"Expectational bias" works both ways, you know...
So you think it's a DBT when a friend switches the cables? Not hardly.
I never said it was a double blind test, I quite clearly said it was a blind test. If you can describe a feasible way to conduct double blind test on cables in my house I'm all ears.

The single-blind test is quite adequate to remove bias. If you think my friend switching cables without uttering a word prior to and during the test, with no visual as to which cable we were listening to, introduces bias into the test...well I think you are wrong.

And not just a little because I hate spending money on cables, my bias is against it if anything.

[DarqueKnight]

FWIW, the issuance of a patent in no way is proof that a concept, idea, or design works, it is simply saying this is a new and unique idea from all other registered with the Patent Office.

You are absolutely right.

One of the first lessons I was taught in engineering school was that I must learn to critically evaluate scientific literature. Science, technology and engineering is based on mathematics. If the mathematics of a piece of scientific literature is valid, then you can have some confidence in the veracity of what is written.

Textbooks, scientific journals, patent filings, etc. are all produced by human beings and are subject to human error. I have had many professors tell me that one of the most tedious parts of their job is combing through a textbook looking for typos and other errors before they adopt it for a course.

Much, perhaps most, of the technical journal literature is produced by tenure track professors who are just publishing to get tenure or tenured professors who are publishing to maintain their employment status ("publish or perish"). There is a entire commercial publication system to facilitate this. It's one of academia's dirty little secrets. Many journals will publish an author's work simply upon payment of a "review" or "publication" fee. Out of all the tens of thousands of technical journal publications produced each year, how many can realistically contain something that is actually worth reading?

[Cpyder]

I still wonder about this.


No one has come up with a logical answer regarding the reason the cable manufactures state a need for an adjustment period needed till the cable performs to its fullest. When the customer is not properly informed about the adjustment period they return them hurting the bottom line of the manufacture. If there was no need for that period of time do you really think the manufactures would make that statement? Seriously, think about it. - NJPOLKER

Why do we have to determine AQ's motive in order to falsify their claims? That seems like faulty reasoning.

[DarqueKnight]

The single-blind test is quite adequate to remove bias.

Please explain to me how bias can be removed from the evaluation of a subjective stimulus. Even if the listener does not know what equipment is being evaluated, he or she still has listening biases and preferences.

[heiney9]

Patents mean nothing and are not required to be scientifically sound.

For example, there are many patents on perpetual motion machines. Does anyone want to buy one?

If some one has a PHd in EE that doesn't mean they are telling the truth or know what they are talking about.

This applies to me and every one else on theis forum.

If however you site a scientific publication or text book then you are giving valid data for information.


Why is a scientific publication or text book any more valid than someone who has a PHd or is an EE. Most of those types of publications are written by one or more indivduals with PHd's or EE degrees. So if DK were to publish the findings he writes about here on the forum then all of a sudden he has instant credibility with you? :confused:

Ummmmm.......yeah.....don;t think your post makes sense along those lines. Lots of quacks have published stuff and there are lots of published things that are simply untrue, half true, proven false later, etc.....

Having something published doesn't give anyone or any subject more credence. If you think that........well then it certainly explains your logic when discussing this subject.

H9

[AudioGenics]

Time to tune up your hearing sensitivity.
or
perhaps we can construct a "model" or series of models to use so that sound may be judged by.

discounts now available for......
Power steering for your hearing: Ears have tiny 'flexoelectric' motors to amplify sound

http://www.physorg.com/news159599814.html

[DarqueKnight]

H9,

I understand that the antagonist quoted in your post represents himself as a member of the scientific community. His credentials, if any, are suspect because no credible and competent scientist would incorrectly use the word "site". The correct word is "cite", which is short for "citation".

Even more suspect is the fact that no credible and competent scientist would put blind faith in scientific journals and textbooks. This is one of the hallmarks of "pop culture" wherein uncritical thinkers believe anything in print. Gossip magazines thrive on this mentality.

As I stated previously and as every competent and credible scientist knows, scientific literature must be rigorously evaluated mathematically. For example, no credible and competent scientist would take a patent for a perpetual motion machine seriously because such a machine would require an infinite power source and the machine would have to be impervious to wear. Infinite power sources and invulnerability are not mathematically tractable and reasonable.

[AudioGenics]

"If you thought that science was certain — well, that is just an error on your part."

Richard Feynman (1918-1988).

[AudioGenics]

i like this one better....

"It is the aim of science to establish general rules which determine the reciprocal connection of objects and events in time and space. For these rules, or laws of nature, absolutely general validity is required — not proven."

Albert Einstein, in Science, Philosophy and Religion, A Symposium, 1941.

[DarqueKnight]

To recap:

We had a forum member start this thread concerning cable break-in. The thread author cited some literature from cable manufacturer AudioQuest's website.

Another forum member informed that AudioQuest has received a patent and manufactures cable products which directly address the issue of cable break-in. This member cited AudioQuest's patent filing which is available for review at the US Patent and Trademark Office website. Links were provided to the patent documentation.

Other forum members, rather than investigating the merits of AudioQuest's patent claims and offering reasoned, critical review, merely offered an inadequate quasi-rebuttal along the lines of "just because something is patented doesn't make it valid".

This naysayers argument, which is too frequently used, implies that since some patents are bad, all patents are suspect. This is absurd reasoning and is like saying that one should not associate with other people because some people are murderers.

[bikezappa]

Why is a scientific publication or text book any more valid than someone who has a PHd or is an EE. Most of those types of publications are written by one or more indivduals with PHd's or EE degrees. So if DK were to publish the findings he writes about here on the forum then all of a sudden he has instant credibility with you? :confused:
H9

Yes, if DK published his data in an electronics journal that would go along way to making it creditable. These journals will review the data to see if it makes sense and doesn't violate the second law of thermodynamics.

Of course there are bad journals and text books out there. If he publishes his data in crystal health magazine I have my doubts.

Still confused?

[Cpyder]

Why is a scientific publication or text book any more valid than someone who has a PHd or is an EE. Most of those types of publications are written by one or more indivduals with PHd's or EE degrees. So if DK were to publish the findings he writes about here on the forum then all of a sudden he has instant credibility with you? :confused:

Ummmmm.......yeah.....don;t think your post makes sense along those lines. Lots of quacks have published stuff and there are lots of published things that are simply untrue, half true, proven false later, etc.....

Having something published doesn't give anyone or any subject more credence. If you think that........well then it certainly explains your logic when discussing this subject.

H9

It's called a peer reviewed journal. Read one sometime. Key word being peer reviewed.

[bikezappa]

To recap:

We had a forum member start this thread concerning cable break-in. The thread author cited some literature from cable manufacturer AudioQuest's website.

Another forum member informed that AudioQuest has received a patent and manufactures cable products which directly address the issue of cable break-in. This member cited AudioQuest's patent filing which is available for review at the US Patent and Trademark Office website. Links were provided to the patent documentation.

Other forum members, rather than investigating the merits of AudioQuest's patent claims and offering reasoned, critical review, merely offered a inadequate quasi-rebuttal along the lines of "just because something is patented doesn't make it valid".

This naysayers argument, which is too frequently used, implies that since some patents are bad, all patents are suspect. This is absurd reasoning and is like saying that one should not associate with other people because some people are murderers.

OK EE please explain the quote from the first post explaining the cables copmanies science

"Since human perception
is more aware of the existence of a distortion than the quantity, the better the cable, the worse
in some ways it will sound when new, because the anemic forced two-dimensional effect reulting from
being new will not be ameliorated by other gentler distortions."

That is pure and simple BS science, patented or not.

What are the units of "anemic two-dimensional effect".

Give me a break.

I sometimes think some members of the forum just make this science crap up as a joke to see what others will say.

[AudioGenics]

DK..

searching on this patent (just quickly)
I see this comment :
DIELECTRIC-BIAS SYSTEM (patent pending): Unfortunately, because insulation stores and releases energy, it is also a “dielectric.” In a cable application, all released energy is distortion. The misnomer “break-in” is often used to describe the pronounced improvement in performance as the dielectric adapts to a charged state as the cable is used. Whenever a cable does not have a charge on it, it is re-adapting to an uncharged state; it is becoming new again.

is this the same patent that is in the courts ?

Monster Cable Charges AudioQuest with Willful Patent Infringement in Federal Court.

[heiney9]

It's very simple BikeZappa...........don't buy company XYZ's cable if you don't agree with their marketing or their patent.

It's really that simple.

[cnh]

H9,

I understand that the antagonist quoted in your post represents himself as a member of the scientific community. His credentials, if any, are suspect because no credible and competent scientist would incorrectly use the word "site". The correct word is "cite", which is short for "citation".

Even more suspect is the fact that no credible and competent scientist would put blind faith in scientific journals and textbooks. This is one of the hallmarks of "pop culture" wherein uncritical thinkers believe anything in print. Gossip magazines thrive on this mentality.

As I stated previously and as every competent and credible scientist knows, scientific literature must be rigorously evaluated mathematically. For example, no credible and competent scientist would take a patent for a perpetual motion machine seriously because such a machine would require an infinite power source and the machine would have to be impervious to wear. Infinite power sources and invulnerability are not mathematically tractable and reasonable.

I'd like to say that although I am not a Natual Scientist, I am a Social Scientist and I can corroborate what DarqueKnight has argued concerning the problems of 'publication'.

To Cpyder below who advances the PEER review gambit, I add, POLITICS. For anyone who is in the higher tier of his discipline blind/peer review is almost IMPOSSIBLE. As most of us are familiar with writing styles and subject matter of more 'successful' authors. I have seen credible scholars shut down by PEER review because their work CONTRADICTS the POWERS that control the discipline. The late Thomas Kuhn was documenting the POLITICS of the HARD SCIENCES in his later work. A demonstration that PEER reviews and the HARD SCIENCES are not devoid of bias, power and politics! Those schooled in the HARD sciences would do well to 'remember' that that science has a "HISTORY" and that history is full of all kinds of nonsense that is hardly scientific. And PEER reviews do not stop B.S. from appearing in journals. In my field at least 50 percent of what moves through peer review is horrid! And hardly worth reading. And some of the hard science stuff is so specialized as to mean nothing to anyone but a hand full of experts. The average Peer Reviewed article is read by less than 5 people? Hardly an advertisement for its significance! Or importance to the Scientific Community at large.

EVERYONE knows Journals are driven by politics, prestige and POWER to a large extent....ask Albert Einstein? Completely unknown and disregarded for over a decade!

Enjoy the 'illusion' of objectivity...if it is one that gives meaning to your life.

There is no such thing as a SCIENCE without SOCIETY! A PURE SCIENCE?

cnh

[The Monoliths]

H9,

I understand that the antagonist quoted in your post represents himself as a member of the scientific community. His credentials, if any, are suspect because no credible and competent scientist would incorrectly use the word "site". The correct word is "cite", which is short for "citation".

It could have been worse. He could have spelled it as "sight".:p

[bikezappa]

It's very simple BikeZappa...........don't buy company XYZ's cable if you don't agree with their marketing or their patent.

It's really that simple.

You are correct. I just like to comment on and expose BS science.

And BS science is everywhere.

Astrology is in the science sections of some newspapers.

[DarqueKnight]

EVERYONE knows Journals are driven by politics, prestige and POWER to a large extent....ask Albert Einstein? Completely unknown and disregarded for over a decade!

Well, everyone who is a member of the scientific community certainly knows this. As I said, its one of our dirty little secrets. Those on the outside looking in are easily impressed by the glossy paper, impressive colorful graphics, lofty and esoteric article titles, illustrious author biographies and journal publication "prestige".

[cnh]

If you want to see B.S. in Science forget about astrology and look at the current research and CLAIMS of neuroscience....or the unfounded leaps from the Human Genome to claims about genes for this and that kind of BEHAVIOR. With NO REAL SCIENCE behind those absurd claims. No awareness of the CULTURAL biases of concepts like 'aggression', 'male vs. female' behavior, and so on. It's enough to bust a gut. And 100s of millions of dollars go to these Braniacs as most people in my field smile wildly.

And there are more PEER REVIEWED articles with wonderful STATISTICAL MODELS and data for all of this...the problem...there are FLAWS in the INITIAL ASSUMPTIONS that require CROSS-Cultural comparisons and corrections before such GENERALIZATIONS CAN BE DRAWN!

cnh

[bikezappa]

Well my spelling and gramma suck. Said this many times. Is that all you got now?

Peer review like everything else is flawed and is getting worse. Remember Cold Fusion they by passed all peer review and went to the newspapaers. Sad.

Do you guys get paid well to write this science crap or do you just do it for kicks and juckles?

[bikezappa]

Well, everyone who is a member of the scientific community certainly knows this. As I said, its one of our dirty little secrets. Those on the outside looking in are easily impressed by the glossy paper, impressive colorful graphics, lofty and esoteric article titles, illustrious author biographies and journal publication "prestige".

Glossy paper, impressive colorful graphics....... NEVER got me one contract or reseach program funded. That's not how it works. You have been watching to much TV.

No I'm not going to tell you how it works, that's my secret.

[cnh]

I have friends who have been on the board of those granting institutions and I can tell you that there are a lot of POLITICAL MACHINATIONS that decide who gets funded and who doesn't, don't delude yourself....maybe half of the people who apply for money have decent projects...the rest are either too well-known NOT to be funded or they know people on the board or they write in the FAD of the moment which appeals to certain board members.

Come on. People DON'T stop being HUMAN because they're on the National Science Foundation (board), etc.? In fact they probably got there by screwing a lot of their colleagues in the process?

Don't be naive! Enough said....do some field work in these institutions if you don't believe this.

cnh

[AudioGenics]

The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) now rejects patents claiming cold fusion.[68] Esther Kepplinger, the deputy commissioner of patents in 2004, said that this was done using the same argument as with perpetual motion machines: that they do not work.

[rubin]

To me, the idea that blind trials are applicable to audio are as ignorant and obnoxious as this widely believed naysayers axiom about power cables:

"What good can a few feet of boutique cable do for the power signal after it has traveled through miles of ordinary copper on the power grid and through the ordinary copper in house wiring?"

Naysayers who propagate this nonsense think they are looking smart, but in harsh reality, they are only demonstrating that they are ignorant to the fact that a properly designed and shielded power cord can do much to clean up a power signal after it leaves the wall...just as a good water filter can provide additional cleaning to water that comes out of the tap.

The audio blind trial proponent conveniently ignores, or perhaps is actually not cognizant of, the fact that an audio system's job is to create an illusion and that the illusion created is a fragile one. Moving ones head too far to the left or right or sitting too close or too far from the speakers can diminish the stereo sound field or cause it to collapse altogether.

For some people, the three dimensional sound field illusion created by a good sound system comes into focus immediately upon being seated in the "stereo sweet spot". For others, it takes a few seconds or a few minutes for the sound stage to "gel".

Now, consider those individuals whose ears need a few moments to "come into focus" and then consider the results of putting such individuals in a situation where equipment is being rapidly or even instantaneously switched back and forth.

I realize that many naysayers have no real interest in audio (whether high performance, mid-fi or otherwise). Trying to reason with them is futile. Some simply have belligerent personalities. If they weren't arguing about audio, they would be arguing about something else that they know little to nothing about. Audiophiles are just a popular and easy target for ridicule. It is easy to come on the Internet and grab some attention and perhaps some camaraderie from kindred spirits:

"Yeah...they spend all that money, but they can't prove that they can actually hear what they say they can hear. I'm way smarter than them. My Yorx 8-track sounds just as good as the stuff they spent thousands of dollars on."

Thanks , now I feel better about my JPS power cords.

[megasat16]

The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) now rejects patents claiming cold fusion.[68] Esther Kepplinger, the deputy commissioner of patents in 2004, said that this was done using the same argument as with perpetual motion machines: that they do not work.

The real Question to ask would be "when the Patent office ever got it right?". They usually and undeniably awarded patent to the wrong person once too many times and found out a few decades later....:confused::eek:


I have friends who have been on the board of those granting institutions and I can tell you that there are a lot of POLITICAL MACHINATIONS that decide who gets funded and who doesn't, don't delude yourself....maybe half of the people who apply for money have decent projects...the rest are either too well-known NOT to be funded or they know people on the board or they write in the FAD of the moment which appeals to certain board members.

Come on. People DON'T stop being HUMAN because they're on the National Science Foundation (board), etc.? In fact they probably got there by screwing a lot of their colleagues in the process?

Don't be naive! Enough said....do some field work in these institutions if you don't believe this.

cnh

Wow! It's nice to know at least there are a few folks who see things the way I see. :D

[AudioGenics]

I am not an expert on Patent Law but
I would guess that IF additional evidence can be presented
to the support the idea (ie Cold Fusion) that is under evaluation and then resubmitted to be " patent applied for " for the approval process or that
There must also be an appeal process again just a guess.
Under the area of Patent Law and Lawyers that practice that specialty.

Who knows what new discoveries will be made tomorrow or in the future.

Imagine that this probably causes alot of conflicts and challenges and controversy
when ideas clash.... in medicine, politics, religion, and OMG .....AUDIO VIDEO

IT is our adversarial nature but truth prevails (hopefully)

[rayslifecycle]

Shoot - Ran out of Popcorn and Soda -

It was the good stuff too, Kettle Corn from Trader Joes.......
although after reading these last few pages - i am not sure if I can trust my taste buds.

Go DK!!!!
Your experiments and writings the past year illustrate your devotion and curiosity to the hobby. Thank you for your efforts.

For water filters - I use a Berkey
http://www.berkeywater.com/start.main.html

[bikezappa]

The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) now rejects patents claiming cold fusion.[68] Esther Kepplinger, the deputy commissioner of patents in 2004, said that this was done using the same argument as with perpetual motion machines: that they do not work.

Will they add cables next.

[hearingimpared]

If some one has a PHd in EE that doesn't mean they are telling the truth or know what they are talking about.

This applies to me and every one else on theis forum.

If however you site a scientific publication or text book then you are giving valid data for information.

I was referring to the proof that Dr. Smith writes in all his publications here those of which you and William keep ignoring.

BTW who said that the writer of a "scientific publication or text book" isn't biased.

[AudioGenics]

I did try submitting a patent for " Hair Loss and enlarged peripheral appendages "
but did not make it
when I asked to do a double triple blind with a twist study......

[bikezappa]

I was referring to the proof that Dr. Smith writes in all his publications here those of which you and William keep ignoring.

BTW who said that the writer of a "scientific publication or text book" isn't biased.

We are all biased OK? Nobody is perfect.

DK ignores me and it doesn't bother me.

What the hell does this mean.. "anemic two-dimensional effect".

His gramma and spelling skills while sometimes verbose are very detailed and much better than mine and maybe yours.

[bikezappa]

Shoot - Ran out of Popcorn and Soda -

It was the good stuff too, Kettle Corn from Trader Joes.......
although after reading these last few pages - i am not sure if I can trust my taste buds.

Go DK!!!!
Your experiments and writings the past year illustrate your devotion and curiosity to the hobby. Thank you for your efforts.

For water filters - I use a Berkey
http://www.berkeywater.com/start.main.html

Can you share that food?

It's so nice to have cheer leaders in the back ground.

Shit, I take that back, I bet you look like 5 miles of bad road.

Hope I cot the comers right and spelled very thing good enough for every one.

[bikezappa]

I did try submitting a patent for " Hair Loss and enlarged peripheral appendages "
but did not make it
when I asked to do a double triple blind with a twist study......

I bet there are a lot of people on this forum that will sell you their left over purchases and even through in a cable or two if you are nice.

[bikezappa]

H9,
I understand that the antagonist quoted in your post represents himself as a member of the scientific community. His credentials, if any, are suspect because no credible and competent scientist would incorrectly use the word "site". The correct word is "cite", which is short for "citation".

Thank you for that imformed response regarding the word cite.

You must also be an antagonist. If we oppose each other we must both be antagonists. Or maybe you just meant I'm wrong and your right.

Simple and direct is always the best for me.

Ta Ta

[Cpyder]

The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) now rejects patents claiming cold fusion.[68] Esther Kepplinger, the deputy commissioner of patents in 2004, said that this was done using the same argument as with perpetual motion machines: that they do not work.

Yep, perpetual motion machines have to work now before they get a patent. Lol, not sure they'll be too many more of these patents.

[WilliamM2]

I was referring to the proof that Dr. Smith writes in all his publications here those of which you and William keep ignoring.

BTW who said that the writer of a "scientific publication or text book" isn't biased.

What proof? Are you talking about the power cord and fuse BS? First he takes a measurement, which shows the results to be far below the known human threshold of hearing. Then he does a listening "test", and proclaims it to be "such good sound", with absolutely no controls in place to account for bias. If you want to pretend that it qualifies as science, go ahead.

[bikezappa]

What proof? Are you talking about the power cord and fuse BS? First he takes a measurement, which shows the results to be far below the known human threshold of hearing. Then he does a listening "test", and proclaims it to be "such good sound", with absolutely no controls in place to account for bias. If you want to pretend that it qualifies as science, go ahead.

Thank you for giving me hope that there are logical people left on this forum.

[lightman1]

Buncha lemmings. Follow me!

[megasat16]

I am not an expert on Patent Law but
I would guess that IF additional evidence can be presented
to the support the idea (ie Cold Fusion) that is under evaluation and then resubmitted to be " patent applied for " for the approval process or that
There must also be an appeal process again just a guess.
Under the area of Patent Law and Lawyers that practice that specialty.

Who knows what new discoveries will be made tomorrow or in the future.

Imagine that this probably causes alot of conflicts and challenges and controversy
when ideas clash.... in medicine, politics, religion, and OMG .....AUDIO VIDEO

IT is our adversarial nature but truth prevails (hopefully)


Yep! Hopefully, Truth prevails. But nowadays, the term "Truth" usually belongs to the one with Money and Power.

All Cable Manufacturers with enough money will buy Science Community as well as the Patent Office one day. And every BS they put in the Marketing will be written in the Engineering Textbook as it has some Science Value to it. It's the day the Earth will not stood still!

[NJPOLKER]

Thank you for giving me hope that there are logical people left on this forum.

So you three are the only logical ones? How funny is that.

[NJPOLKER]

Yep! Hopefully, Truth prevails. But nowadays, the term "Truth" usually belongs to the one with Money and Power.

All Cable Manufacturers with enough money will buy Science Community as well as the Patent Office one day. And every BS they put in the Marketing will be written in the Engineering Textbook as it has some Science Value to it. It's the day the Earth will not stood still!

Thats one of the reasons I'll go with what I hear any day. These other guys are obviously clueless on anything they didn't read in a text book and that is sad, for them anyway.

[hearingimpared]

I feel like I'm in a Monty Python skit with these three guys . . . "no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't, yes is.' You three guys are so jaded to some different thinking that it is pathetic.

[lightman1]

Joe's a hack. He's hearing impared. Don't accept what he says as gospel.
"Me winning isn't, you do"

[Cpyder]

So you three are the only logical ones? How funny is that.

Don't leave me out :)

[DarqueKnight]

DK..

searching on this patent (just quickly)
I see this comment :
DIELECTRIC-BIAS SYSTEM (patent pending): Unfortunately, because insulation stores and releases energy, it is also a “dielectric.” In a cable application, all released energy is distortion. The misnomer “break-in” is often used to describe the pronounced improvement in performance as the dielectric adapts to a charged state as the cable is used. Whenever a cable does not have a charge on it, it is re-adapting to an uncharged state; it is becoming new again.

is this the same patent that is in the courts ?

Monster Cable Charges AudioQuest with Willful Patent Infringement in Federal Court.

Yes, that is the same patent that was challenged by Monster, Inc. However, you must have found an old web reference. Monster lost the lawsuit and AQ was granted their patent. I posted a link to a press release about the lawsuit in post 131 of this thread.

[NJPOLKER]

Joe's a hack. He's hearing impared. Don't accept what he says as gospel.
"Me winning isn't, you do"

I was hoping you'd appear and sure enough here you are ;):p:mad::rolleyes::o:D:):(:eek::confused::cool::m ad::p;):D:o:(

Joe,
You are right and it didn't cross my mind this thread would go like this. Its too bad a few blah blah blaher's would miss lead others who are here to learn. I know what there responses will be but they even know they are not trying to help others, just argue there opinions. None of them know the intimate make-up and manufacturing processes of all the copper used by the different manufactures who all state there is a break-in period/adjustment period. Oh well

[megasat16]

No matter whether there is truth in it or not - it's all matters is that one to be happy with the money he/she spent. If he/she thinks it's worth every pennies, then, it's superb.

And even most so called Truth have falseness in it unless there is a Universal Truth.

Oh wait, the Earth was Universally accepted as FLAT at one time (at least on this Planet at one time).

We need scientific prove that the di-electric in cables does make a difference. Hearing / Not Hearing can depends from person to person and unless it's universally accepted, it can't be proven right or wrong.

[lightman1]

I'm just here to f*ck up threads as I see fit.

[lightman1]

..and the Earth is flat....FYI

[NJPOLKER]

I'm just here to f*ck up threads as I see fit.

I just saw one in the Club House for you - How old is your brain or something like that. Should be perfect for you :D Last time I talked with you in a thread I got a 5 point violation, how funny is that!!!!!!!!!

[rayslifecycle]

"Me winning isn't, you do"


Bill Lee: Exterminate all rational thought. That is the conclusion I have come to.
"Naked Lunch"
I too love movie quotes

[megasat16]

I just saw one in the Club House for you - How old is your brain or something like that. Should be perfect for you :D Last time I talked with you in a thread I got a 5 point violation, how funny is that!!!!!!!!!

For Lightman? It really depends on whether we are talking about Light Years or Earth Years! But whatever the scale you use, I doubt he passed anything over 1 year old. :D :D :D

[DarqueKnight]

Go DK!!!!
Your experiments and writings the past year illustrate your devotion and curiosity to the hobby. Thank you for your efforts.

Thank you for your kind words. The publisher of Affordable Audio invited me to publish my initial noise study there and we received an overwhelmingly positive response, which lead to the publication of subsequent noise studies in AA.

I actually had no idea that AA was so widely read. I have received many emails from audiophile scientists all over the world expressing appreciation for the studies. Some have asked that I submit the work to appropriate IEEE journals, which I plan to do.

My motivation for doing the studies was not to "prove" any particular point. I just wanted to obtain some quantitative insight into what I was hearing.

[megasat16]

..and the Earth is flat....FYI

Dam*....Do you know I have to drive up 4000 ft every time I came back home from LA? ;)

[lightman1]

I just saw one in the Club House for you - How old is your brain or something like that. Should be perfect for you :D Last time I talked with you in a thread I got a 5 point violation, how funny is that!!!!!!!!!
I'm up to 10, I think. Jerk.

[NJPOLKER]

For Lightman? It really depends on whether we are talking about Light Years or Earth Years! But whatever the scale you use, I doubt he passed anything over 1 year old. :D :D :D

GOOD ONE!!!!!!!
Ya gotta add a little humor to threads like this.

[DarqueKnight]

Thanks , now I feel better about my JPS power cords.

C'mon now...I'm sure you felt better about them the first time you listened.;)


Wow! It's nice to know at least there are a few folks who see things the way I see. :D

Great! Now there are (at least) three of us.:)

-----------------------------

Well guys, you know how much I enjoy our stimulating and entertaining discussions that lead to nowhere in particular. However, I have just taken delivery of a new Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-151FD 1080p plasma television and I need to take leave to get better acquainted with it.

Unfortunately, it will be a week before I can settle down to serious watching because, for the first 150 hours, I will be running the break-in DVD recommended by ISF (Imaging Sciences Foundation) calibrator's to break in the screen phosphors prior to setting the picture adjustments.

I must say that it looks spectacular right of the box...and even more spectatular when it's turned on.:p

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s23/darqueknight88/kuro/KuroInstalledBox-s.jpg

Don't y'all fight, now.:)

----------------------------------------------

[lightman1]

For Lightman? It really depends on whether we are talking about Light Years or Earth Years! But whatever the scale you use, I doubt he passed anything over 1 year old. :D :D :D
Where do live?

[NJPOLKER]

Thank you for your kind words. The publisher of Affordable Audio invited me to publish my initial noise study there and we received an overwhelmingly positive response, which lead to the publication of subsequent noise studies in AA.

I actually had no idea that AA was so widely read. I have received many emails from audiophile scientists all over the world expressing appreciation for the studies. Some have asked that I submit the work to appropriate IEEE journals, which I plan to do.

My motivation for doing the studies was not to "prove" any particular point. I just wanted to obtain some quantitative insight into what I was hearing.

Congratulations

[NJPOLKER]

I'm up to 10, I think. Jerk.

Did you just call me a jerk? Damn I am happy I trimmed my bushes around my house so there is no where for you to easily hide.

[AudioGenics]

thanks for the update DK

I am losing confidence in the Patent Process and the Bureaucracy.......

USPTO Opens Exhibit of Michael Jackson’s Patent and Trademarks
The United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) and the National Inventors Hall of Fame and Museum are presenting a special exhibit featuring material from Michael Jackson’s patent and trademark applications. The exhibit is free and open to the public starting Wednesday, July 15 and runs through Labor Day.

[megasat16]

Where do live?

Sending me Christmas cards? :o It's too early now in July! :D

[lightman1]

thanks for the update DK

I am losing confidence in the Patent Process and the Bureaucracy.......

USPTO Opens Exhibit of Michael Jackson’s Patent and Trademarks
The United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) and the National Inventors Hall of Fame and Museum are presenting a special exhibit featuring material from Michael Jackson’s patent and trademark applications. The exhibit is free and open to the public starting Wednesday, July 15 and runs through Labor Day.

Why?

[lightman1]

Sending me Christmas cards? :o It's too early now in July! :D
I'll drive up there and give a kiss.

[lightman1]

DK Rocks! In all seriousness, Raife offers a lot of valuable info here. Above and beyond anything that most of us will do when it comes to the physics end of the gear we enjoy.
F-Tards

[megasat16]

I'll drive up there and give a kiss.

From you? :eek: I'll take flu infected swine over you anyday now!

[bikezappa]

DK never answered my questions.

Good luck with the IEEE publishing. Will you present at a conference?

[lightman1]

From you? :eek: I'll take flu infected swine over you anyday now!
But mine taste like cinnamon...what say you?

[megasat16]

But mine taste like cinnamon...what say you?

Ok Sir Lightman! I think everyone has enough laugh and less tense in the thread. And still NO to your cinnamon tastes like kiss!

Let's get back to the subject about how the sound changes as the Dielectric around an Audio Cables break in / burn in.

For other types of cables that carries electricity, I don't want to go near it while the dielectric is broken in. I know electronics engineer are not safe from electrocution.

[lightman1]

The dielectric properties of the jacket or the properties of the conductor itself?
Or the breakdown of the insulation between the ground and conductor in the assembly of the cable?

Better?

[bikezappa]

Can't you guys do better?

Some what boring.

[lightman1]

It's half-time BZ. Let them rest and catch their breath.

I'm a troll. W00T!

[lightman1]

Did you just call me a jerk?
Yep. I did.

[Flash21]

Please explain to me how bias can be removed from the evaluation of a subjective stimulus. Even if the listener does not know what equipment is being evaluated, he or she still has listening biases and preferences.
Yes, my statement was overly general out of context, perhaps you could not tell that I was referring to a discussion of "expectational bias" specifically.

[megasat16]

Can't you guys do better?

Some what boring.

Sorry! I am poofed now! :o Wifey said summer beach party is coming and I must preserve strength to do more push-up to break in the fats in my Pot Belly or I won't get any.....













































































MAYO over SAUSAGE for my dogs!


:D :D :D

[AudioGenics]

interesting relationships
PAT. NO. Title
1 7,126,055 Apparatus and methods for dielectric bias system
2 5,681,183 Accessible VCR jack assembly
3 5,677,959 Audio signal source balancing adapters
4 5,527,995 Cable for conducting energy
5 5,307,416 Bias circuit for cable interconnects

[lightman1]

Mega has been drinking again. Expect ramblings worse than mine.



He said sausage dog...........

[AudioGenics]

thought biases that was being spoken about

Dielectric Bias Systems ( oops not similiar to Bias Circuit System : Coaxial)

[bikezappa]

It's half-time BZ. Let them rest and catch their breath.

I'm a troll. W00T!

Thanks. Sometimes I'm just stupid.

Time for a beer and a dog.

[lightman1]

My opinions are biased, simply because I refuse to listen.

[AudioGenics]

There are HUNDREDS of Biases and sub categories of biases.

It may be that we see symptoms of Pariedolia biases occurring.....

ain't it so much fun !

[AudioGenics]

check to make sure that
there are no symptoms of
"Apophenia"

[heiney9]

check to make sure that
there are no symptoms of
"Apophenia"

Mr Chen, I see your upping your post again with useless posts

[AudioGenics]

I'll chill after this one....

Murphy's Law of Research dictates that "Enough research will tend to support your theory."

[heiney9]

I'll chill after this one....

Murphy's Law of Research dictates that "Enough research will tend to support your theory."

Heiney's Law states: "Too many useless posts makes one utterly useless and annoying to the point of releasing the KRAKEN"

H9

[NJPOLKER]

The folks at AQ and most of the others also say cables are directional. I guess thats not true too. They just go around making things up to make there products more sophisticated.
I turned the Type 4's around and was able to hear a difference. The sound was not quite as clear and the separation was much better.

[hearingimpared]

The folks at AQ and most of the others also say cables are directional. I guess thats not true too. They just go around making things up to make there products more sophisticated.
I turned the Type 4's around and was able to hear a difference. The sound was not quite as clear and the separation was much better.

Is that a typo or are you saying the separation was better with the cable in the wrong direction?

[NJPOLKER]

Is that a typo or are you saying the separation was better with the cable in the wrong direction?

The separation was far better when run in the proper direction.

[WilliamM2]

The folks at AQ and most of the others also say cables are directional. I guess thats not true too. They just go around making things up to make there products more sophisticated.

No need to guess, since the signal is A/C, and it flows both directions.

[heiney9]

No need to guess, since the signal is A/C, and it flows both directions.

The directional indicator is for the drain...........nothing more, nothing less.

[bikezappa]

No need to guess, since the signal is A/C, and it flows both directions.

William, you need to be careful here because you may break their ballon of believe and cause serious mental issues. Remember the Tinker Bell problem?

Don't you think it's possible that this techno crap is all a joke?

[hearingimpared]

William, you need to be careful here because you may break their ballon of believe and cause serious mental issues. Remember the Tinker Bell problem?

Don't you think it's possible that this techno crap is all a joke?

This from the guy who's always whining about name calling.

[bikezappa]

This from the guy who's always whining about name calling.

Is Tinker Bell a bad name?

No bad names here.

What will be the next crap EE theory to sell more stuff?

I suggest using an Iron to flatten out the speaker wire to control the rogue electrons because of the RF energy?

Never sell, forget it.

When you young guys read this stuff in ten years you will get a good laugh.

[hearingimpared]

Is Tinker Bell a bad name?

No bad names here.

What will be the next crap EE theory to sell more stuff?

I suggest using an Iron to flatten out the speaker wire to control the rogue electrons because of the RF energy?

Never sell, forget it.

When you young guys read this stuff in ten years you will get a good laugh.

. . .and us older guys are laughing at you now.

[Face]

When you young guys read this stuff in ten years you will get a good laugh.Or maybe you and William will realize what good sound is.


To keep things on topic: http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2009/05/06/on-being-gizmodoed-b.html

[thsmith]

Or maybe you and William will realize what good sound is.


To keep things on topic: http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2009/05/06/on-being-gizmodoed-b.html

I have read that arcticle before and it is still a good read.

[bikezappa]

Or maybe you and William will realize what good sound is. [/url]

I love to listen to music but not to test cables. I just try to focus on the music and try not to focus on what's not right with it. That's no fun. And I realize that any audio set up is not even close to live music. No cable or wire will make a significate audio difference for me IMHO.

What does have the potenial to make a real differnce in audio is the speakers and the recording engineer's set up, IMHO. I realise that small changes can all add up but based on my experience cables have a very limited potential.

Most every thing in life when graphed forms an S curve. There is much data to support this. Some call this the Law of diminishing returns. I think cables are at this point of very diminishing returns. Claims that they make a dramatic diference that some how can't be demonstrated with a DB test make me smell a rat. OK? And when people use crap science that contradicts good past and proven science to sell cables I get pissed.

Sorry if I offended anyone.

You guys can sure blast me with names, try blasting me science and logic.