Tube amp vs Solid State ouputs? [Archive]

cnh

07-19-2009, 06:13 PM

I doubt that you could write an equation for the relationship between tube amp power and SS power.

But I will say that Tubes sound 'more' powerful at the same wattage than an SS. And a watt is not always a watt!

Look at heiney9, he's running SDA-1Cs with a 30 x 2 watt amp! I think. And he has NO shortage of power!

I've also heard a 60 watt/channel tube make a 130 watt ss integrated beg for mercy.

cnh

markmarc

07-19-2009, 06:14 PM

F1nut

07-19-2009, 06:21 PM

A watt is a watt.

On the other hand all watts are not created equal.

Tubes amps soft clip while SS amps hard clip. Tube amps produce even order distortion while SS amps produce odd order distortion. Thus tube watts have the ability to perform at a level equal to or greater than double that of SS watts.

mhardy6647

07-19-2009, 06:27 PM

A watt is a watt. Tube amplifiers tend to compress before they clip "hard"; when a solid state amplifier's output transistor hits the DC supply "rail" voltage; that's all there is and there ain't no more; solid state amplifiers tend to be fairly well behaved (linear) up to just below the clipping threshold, at clipping they tend to produce tremendous amounts of higher-frequency harmonics. This can be quite dangerous to tweeters.

There have been adaptive power supply designs (e.g., Hitachi's "Class H" of the late 1970s) designed to extend the headroom of solid state power amplifiers.

N.B. Vacuum tube outputs can do this too; but they tend to be more forgiving (both to your ears and to your tweeters).

Tube amps produce even order distortion while SS amps produce odd order distortion.

Actually that is more of a single-ended vs. push pull thing. Push-pull amplifiers, as a direct consequence of the topology, produce only odd-order harmonics. It is the euphonic even-order harmonic distortion (and the relative lack of higher-frequency/higher-order distortion products) that can make single-ended tube amplifiers sound so dang... seductive :-)

Push-pull tube amplifiers can sound pretty durn good too; I use one regularly in the living room.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound#Harmonic_content_and_distortion

engtaz

07-19-2009, 06:28 PM

Thanks F1nut. I thought I had read something like that.

george daniel

07-19-2009, 06:35 PM

Part of the reason I feel tubes sound more powerful is that the power supply, etc. are plain beefier and can draw far more instantaneous current. That translates into slam, punch, etc. Try lifting a tube amp or int. amp, damn things are hernia makers.

Man,, you got that right,, I moved my little 40 watter today,,I had forgotten how heavy those trannies are,, damn.

F1nut

07-19-2009, 06:38 PM

Roy, did you hear Skip's rig at Carverfest last year where the 180wpc tube amps smoked both the 575 wpc 9t's and the 600wpc Sunfire? Or the 75wpc tube amp that drove the SDA 1C's in that huge room to very loud levels?

pearsall001

07-19-2009, 06:46 PM

It's all perception...but when you draw it up on paper and at the end of the day a watt is still......are you ready for this...a WATT!!!! Sounds like PT Barnum's been lurking here. Where's that Krell when you need one!

mhardy6647

07-19-2009, 06:52 PM

... and if you have 745.7 of them, you've got one horsepower.

F1nut

07-19-2009, 06:54 PM

Again Phil, all watts are not created equal or do you think all amps sound the same too.

george daniel

07-19-2009, 06:55 PM

F1nut

07-19-2009, 07:00 PM

I should add that there are some damn good SS amps out there that have nothing to be ashamed of.

Yeah George, I know you know. :)

pearsall001

07-19-2009, 07:18 PM

Again Phil, all watts are not created equal or do you think all amps sound the same too.

In a well conducted double blind listening test, with everything level matched, yes indeed all amps will sound the same. Now wait a minute, I thought I was over on the Audoholics forum...:D Had you going there didn't I Jesse!!!

It's no secret that tube & SS amps are of a different design philosophy & act & react in different manners. Tubes certainly clip differently than SS & give that perceived "easy on the ears" distortion. But no matter how you slice & dice it, a watt is a watt, same as one horsepower is one horsepower. What you do with it after that is another whole ball game. There in lies the difference.

engtaz

07-19-2009, 07:28 PM

No, I did not get the chance. I had my son there, so I tended to be running around visiting everybody and tried to not neglect him. But I have played with a 20 watts tube amp and a 200 watt and the 20 watt tube surprised the heck out of me. At the my loud ref level the tube was cleaner at the same loudness.

GV#27

07-19-2009, 07:48 PM

Part of the reason I feel tubes sound more powerful is that the power supply, etc. are plain beefier and can draw far more instantaneous current. SS PS's are lower voltage but higher current than their high voltage tubed counterparts.
try lifting a tube amp or int. amp, damn things are hernia makers. The necessity of using big bulky output transformers account for most of the extra weight.

A watt is a watt. Tube amplifiers tend to compress before they clip "hard"; when a solid state amplifier's output transistor hits the DC supply "rail" voltage; that's all there is and there ain't no more; solid state amplifiers tend to be fairly well behaved (linear) up to just below the clipping threshold, at clipping they tend to produce tremendous amounts of higher-frequency harmonics. This can be quite dangerous to tweeters......

Actually that is more of a single-ended vs. push pull thing. Push-pull amplifiers, as a direct consequence of the topology, produce only odd-order harmonics. It is the euphonic even-order harmonic distortion (and the relative lack of higher-frequency/higher-order distortion products) that can make single-ended tube amplifiers sound so dang... seductive :-)

Push-pull tube amplifiers can sound pretty durn good too; I use one regularly in the living room.

^That about covers it.

F1nut

07-19-2009, 08:10 PM

Actually that is more of a single-ended vs. push pull thing. Push-pull amplifiers, as a direct consequence of the topology, produce only odd-order harmonics. It is the euphonic even-order harmonic distortion (and the relative lack of higher-frequency/higher-order distortion products) that can make single-ended tube amplifiers sound so dang... seductive :-)

Yeah, you're right. I keep screwing that one up.

AudioGenics

07-19-2009, 09:04 PM

Tube audio equipment can have voltage potentials exceeding 700 volts AC.

That is why they are so HOT !

markmarc

07-19-2009, 10:52 PM

For the same $$ spent, I'll still take a tube over 90% of the SS amps on the market. Plus, it's fair to note that the better to awesome quality SS amps have some serious weight issues as well.

mhardy6647

07-20-2009, 07:30 AM

The necessity of using big bulky output transformers account for most of the extra weight.

I thought about saying that, but demurred because I thought about good sounding amplifiers like the 1950s - 1960s Magnavox (Maggotbox) SE and PP console amps, or the SE Bottlehead Paramours, that use extremely modest output transformers (and still sound quite good). Generally it is true though that the best vacuum tube amps (e.g., Marantz 8B) have pretty hefty output iron; it's a necessity for extended, flat LF response -- especially if no added negative feedback is used in an amp design.

Actually in general I think classic/high-end soiled state gear tends to have proportionately 'stiffer'/more regulated P/S designs than does even cclassic tube amplifiers. The best vacuum tube power supplies I've seen are all DIY, cost no object. Tubes (most of 'em, anyway) need high "B+" (plate) voltage to operate; especially power output tubes.

Yeah, you're right. I keep screwing that one up.

Lots of people do (I tend to forget, myself).

madmax

07-20-2009, 10:54 AM

IIRC Jolida website claims 1 tube watt = 2 or 3 SS watts.

Agree with their estimation. I've had several tube amps ranging from 16wpc to 200wpc and they compare powerwise to their 50 to 750wpc SS counterparts. Quality sound wise the cost of SS is far more than that of tubes. Lets face it, they did it right the first time then told us a story about how great transistors are. Well, transistor ARE great if cheapness, portability and power usage are the only aspects to consider. Just like digital vs analog. Sure you remove noise and add tons of convienience and portability, but then you lose tone.
madmax

heiney9

07-20-2009, 11:21 AM

The best analogy I can come up it a diesel powered engine vs. gasoline powered engine.

They are just different and I don;t believe there is a "formula" that can adequetly express why tubes can sound more powerful. It all depends on the associated load and other gear, type of tubes, number of tubes, PS, etc, etc.

A watt IS a watt............but as F1 stated not all watts are created equal.

Even amps that only exhibit 2nd order harmonics (like a tube amp does) have tube amp characteristics but don't sound exactly like tubes. You also have to keep in mind sometimes a tube amp has a SS rectifier and sometimes it has a tube rectifier. That one difference right there can be huge in the finally output.

Fundamentally there are some huge differences between a tube powered amp and an SS powered amp. There are some really nice SS amps that can have many of the characteristics of tube amps............but in the end they don;t quite get the entire experience.

H9

engtaz

07-20-2009, 01:26 PM

So with all these calculations will a 20 watt tube amp run speakers that need 100 watts minimum? :)

Face

07-20-2009, 01:36 PM

Watts are over rated.

madmax

07-20-2009, 01:46 PM

So with all these calculations will a 20 watt tube amp run speakers that need 100 watts minimum? :)

Not very loudly. However, a 20w tube amp will still sound good whereas the 20w SS amp will emit nasty intermodulation distortion which prevents any enjoyment and may actually have enough clipping power to damage drivers.

heiney9

07-20-2009, 02:00 PM

Not very loudly. However, a 20w tube amp will still sound good whereas the 20w SS amp will emit nasty intermodulation distortion which prevents any enjoyment and may actually have enough clipping power to damage drivers.

Well not in most cases. Depends on the SS amp. I'd put my Aleph (30wpc) up against any higher powered SS amp and many tube amps.

I have yet to reach my listening threshold running the Aleph with my 1C's in my listening environemnt. The only time I really heard the amp strain was at one our RAS meets running a pair of LSi 15's very loud in pretty large open room. I could just start to hear the soundstage compressing and knew for ultimate SPL with those speakers in that large room more wattage would be needed.

It still sounded the best of any of the amps we were using that day with the Monarchy SM70 mono blocks a very close 2nd. At sane levels 30wpc single ended pure class A played the Lsi 15's with ease.

I do agree that most inexpensive AB amps will exhibit what you describe above (at that rated output). One of the nicest things about tubes is their soft clipping characteristics.

YMMV

H9

mhardy6647

07-20-2009, 02:21 PM

Watts are over rated.

I absolutely concur :-)

madmax

07-20-2009, 02:40 PM

Depends on the SS amp.
H9

I agree,
Of course it is a single ended mosfet amplifier. Those two parameters remove it from the average SS amplifier. Do you have the "3" or the "30" model? Good alternative but its expensive compared to some really good 30 to 50wpc tube amps. I would like to try one of these SS beasts with the horns some day.
madmax

http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/674/

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0701/volksamp.htm

heiney9

07-20-2009, 02:58 PM

MM, mine is the Aleph 30 and it's everything anyone has ever said about it. One of the most musical sounding amps I've laid ears on.

Amusing little story about the Volksamp name. Because of the success of the original Aleph 3 the idea was to use a different chassis rather than machining a solid block of aluminum. They used less expensive chassis for the Aleph 30, revised the topology a bit by adding 50% more Mosfet output tranny's, added a larger PS with better regulation and balanced inputs. Improving both the S/N ratio and allowing for more current for harder to drive speakers, higher damping factor and lower noise, but maintaning the original "sweetness" of the original at about 20% less final cost.

It was labled by Pass Labs at that time as an "afforable amp for the people" hence like the Volkswagen was affordable tranportation for the people.......they named it the "Volksamp". It's current iterration is the Alpeh J made by Nelson's "kitchen table" endevour, First Watt. It uses J-fets for the front end Hand assembled and tested in short production runs of about 100-150.

I can not praise this amp or Nelson's current designs enough. If you ever have the opportunity you should get your ears on one. It will the change the way you think about SS amplification.

H9

mhardy6647

07-20-2009, 03:55 PM

Nelson Pass definitely knows how to design good sounding, high-performing solid state amps.

GV#27

07-21-2009, 01:53 AM

Generally it is true though that the best vacuum tube amps (e.g., Marantz 8B) have pretty hefty output ironAnd how about McIntosh,they know a thing or two about winding output tranformers and their unique bifilar windings likely had a lot to do with the good SQ they were noted for.I had a (and regrettably sold) vintage Mac MC240 and the output transformers were rather beefy.

megasat16

07-21-2009, 02:27 AM

blakeh

07-21-2009, 02:35 AM

I had a 250W ADCOM GFA-585 driving my LSi9 speakers in my office system when I decided to buy a Dodd 50W tube amp to replace it. At first I was a little wary and concerned that dropping 200 watts would have a negative effect on my listening.

Don't know why I was worried! The Dodd drives the speakers to ear-bleeding levels with no problem at all.

GV#27

07-21-2009, 02:55 AM

MC240 is a very nice MaC Classic! I hope you'll have a chance to find another one. After seeing what they sell for these days I wish I had held on to it awhile longer.:( Mine would have been considered a D1 grade= fair condition .

http://www.audioclassics.com/detail.php3?detail=MC240

mmadden28

07-21-2009, 07:34 AM

Doesn't the Class of amp come into play as well?
(I'm talking Class A, Class B, Class D, etc)

george daniel

07-21-2009, 08:41 AM

Guys/Girls,, I've been looking for these,,this is a couple of pic's of the tube amps that Bob Carver made and gave away at last years fest,,and they will/did drive the ALS very ,very nicely,,enough of my blah.blah here you go
IIRC, Bob said the tubes should last a looooong time,,maybe Jesse remembers.

mhardy6647

07-21-2009, 08:49 AM

And how about McIntosh,they know a thing or two about winding output tranformers and their unique bifilar windings likely had a lot to do with the good SQ they were noted for.I had a (and regrettably sold) vintage Mac MC240 and the output transformers were rather beefy.

Goes without saying :-)

I only invoked the 8B because I had the pleasure of restoring one and learned first hand how heavy they are. I unfortunately have almost no hands-on experience with the big ol' Macs. If I ever stumble across an affordable MC-225... it'll be coming home with me. Wouldn't turn down a 240 either...

Doesn't the Class of amp come into play as well?
(I'm talking Class A, Class B, Class D, etc)

Not really, no. Class B will generate a watt much more efficiently than Class A but at the expense of crossover (notch) distortion. Class D is more efficient still, but would be cumbersome to implement with vacuum tubes :-)

heiney9

07-21-2009, 09:03 AM

Doesn't the Class of amp come into play as well?
(I'm talking Class A, Class B, Class D, etc)

Absolutely! Probably the most important aspect of quality sound. There are always exceptions, of course.

H9

P.s. RE: mhardy's response.......if you mean does amp class limit output power (watts), I agree no. But there are many, many high power class A/B, G, D amps that sound like doo doo. Just because it's capable of high wattage (measured) doesn't mean it will sound any good at all.

GV#27

07-21-2009, 09:34 AM

Goes without saying :-)I was just throwing it out there as another example of good transformer design.

I only invoked the 8B because I had the pleasure of restoring one Lucky you, a genuine piece of audio history that.

Class D is more efficient still, but would be cumbersome to implement with vacuum tubes :-)No kidding,it would be abit tricky trying to get output tubes to turn on and off as quickly as do MOSFET's.

mhardy6647

07-21-2009, 09:42 AM

well... digital circuits were pioneered with vacuum tubes; it can be done. Analog op-amps used to be made with vacuum tubes, too. Long, long ago I had a hand-me-down Heathkit analog computer with a whole row of two tube analog op-amps sitting on top of it.

EDIT: Speaking of vacuum tube digital computers... some here might enjoy this link if you've not seen it before...
http://www.ominous-valve.com/vtsc.html

EDIT^2: For the record, the 8B is a mofo of an amplifier... on my short list of hardware that I still really want to get an example of for the 'collection'.

GV#27

07-21-2009, 10:09 AM

well... digital circuits were pioneered with vacuum tubes; it can be done. But not with >90% efficiency.
Analog op-amps used to be made with vacuum tubes, too. There still are few of those around in the DIY circles,I think Erno Borbely sells a kit for one of his designs.

mhardy6647

07-21-2009, 01:48 PM

But not with >90% efficiency... There still are few of those around in the DIY circles,I think Erno Borbely sells a kit for one of his designs.

Check, and check, respectively!

megasat16

07-21-2009, 01:56 PM

I remembered the first Analog Computer (called Data Processing machine at that time, I think), takes about a week to warm up to operate normally (do any useful calculations) and has the size of a (may be 10) football field. With that being said, I think it's computing power are below 1MHz of today standards. Also needs a team of men to debug it for any potential problem so the calculations are correct.

bikezappa

07-21-2009, 02:21 PM

In electricity Watt=Voltage times Amperes or W=EI

Watts are a measure of power and are just like Horsepower

1 Watt = 0.00134 HP

In electricity and Hi Fi a watt can be further defined with a specific frequincy response and distortion rating per watt.

But 10 SS watts and 10 tube Tube watts are the same if the frequency response and distortion are the same for each.

Hope that helps.

cnh

07-21-2009, 02:32 PM

This is one instance where topologies, as heiney9 points out above, have to be taken into consideration.

And one of the few instances where almost anyone can 'actually' hear the difference even if the information above is accepted.

I leave this to the more astute to carry on.

Does anyone here 'think' a tube amp sounds worse than an SS?

cnh

megasat16

07-21-2009, 02:50 PM

Does anyone here 'think' a tube amp sounds worse than an SS?

cnh

Yes! An out of bias Tube Amp can sounds bad as well as the older vintage tube amp with worn out resistors and half dead transformers can sounds very bad.

The tube itself can sounds bad too. :D

There are lots of reason when to love tubes and when not to love Tubes.

heiney9

07-21-2009, 03:07 PM

Does anyone here 'think' a tube amp sounds worse than an SS?

cnh

Absolutley in some cases! Just because it has tubes doesn't automatically mean you have better sound. Synergy, topology, type of tubes used, etc., etc. all play a key roll.

H9

cnh

07-21-2009, 06:44 PM

heiney9

07-21-2009, 06:55 PM

Ok, I went a bit too far....as an academic I should REMEMBER to always 'qualify' my remarks.

What I meant was a GOOD tube amp....not one with bad tubes, strange topologies, worn out parts, and so on. Never intending to imply the ambiguities I left above.

I was just trying to see if we can all 'mostly' agree that a 'good' tube amp will always sound as good or better than a SS amp....excluding certain class As like Brocks's Aleph! Because some class As do sound great as well.

And taking into consideration synergy assuming all equipment and sources to be equal or of similar abilities--because that would be another Qualifier in this equation....

Sorry...

cnh

It really depends..........there are no absolutes. I would never say in "general" one sounds better than the other. Take it on a case by case basis.

I love (meaning I will probably be buried with it) my Aleph, it has all the SS qualities as well as most tube qualities. Will it work for everyone in every rig or environment........no.

For me, I can't answer your question.....even in general as it's to subjective.

H9

GV#27

07-21-2009, 06:59 PM

It is my opinion that its entirely possible in a system context for a "good" Class D amp (ie Hypex UcD) to outperform a good tube amp.:eek:;).

Face

07-21-2009, 07:07 PM

It is my opinion that its entirely possible in a system context for a "good" Class D amp (ie Hypex UcD) to outperform a good tube amp.:eek:;).
I hope Ted doesn't see this. :D

GV#27

07-21-2009, 07:14 PM

I hope Ted doesn't see this. :DYep I may take a few hits with that one,but.....:D;)

cnh

07-21-2009, 07:26 PM

Well perhaps I was hasty in thinking we could 'agree' about some parameters.

The more I view some of the material here. I am reminded of a wonderful short story by Borges the great Argentine writer.

In this story we are introduced to a land of cartographers. A place where everyone in the land is obsessed with correctly representing their territory. As time passes the maps become more and more detailed. And still the people are not satisfied because there is always some small corner that is NOT represented on the map.

So the great masters devise a plan to create a map that is as LARGE as the land beneath it that has a corresponding point ABOVE for every point BELOW. But alas once this great map is completed the inhabitants are forever having to attend to it because the elements are not kind and there are always holes and tears in the giant PERFECT map?

A wonderful allegory by a master.

cnh

megasat16

07-21-2009, 07:52 PM

cnh,

I think it'll be hard to generalize the idea of a Good Tube Amp sounds as good or better than a good solid state amps.

Like H9 said, this is too subjective and there is no absolutes. And the real answer may have to be based on one's own ears.

With all being equal in the chain, a Tube amp usually has very smooth vocal (that's where the Tube magic happens) and highs at the expenses of higher noise floor. Also, a good Tube amp with less power may suffer control and authority over Large Woofers for really deep low bass extension.

I have many solid state amps since I love the technology and simplicity of it. I don't have to think too much about rolling tubes and get up to check bias on Tube before listening to it. A good Solid State amps can sound as good or better than a good Tube Amps and vice versa. But tube folks may say that the Sand lacks Life and restricted to a sandbox. So, it really depends on what you want to believe.

But to me...

Tubes are for Boy's Fantasies...

Sands are for Man's Dreams...

To each it's own and YMMV.....

pearsall001

07-21-2009, 08:02 PM

I hope Ted doesn't see this. :D

He'll live...you just have to come to grips with the fact that technology marches on. Some might like it others not so much.

Face

07-21-2009, 08:23 PM

He'll live...you just have to come to grips with the fact that technology marches on. Some might like it others not so much.

Coming from someone with a Nikko amp. :D ;)

pearsall001

07-21-2009, 10:06 PM

Coming from someone with a Nikko amp. :D ;)

Vintage gear is always the exception to the rule!!! :D;) Nothing like a trip down memory lane!!!

Face

07-21-2009, 10:12 PM

Vintage gear is always the exception to the rule!!! :D;) Nothing like a trip down memory lane!!!
Yes, nothing like vintage gear to hide the differences between cables, CDP's, etc... :D

pearsall001

07-21-2009, 10:34 PM

Yes, nothing like vintage gear to hide the differences between cables, CDP's, etc... :D

I hope your not making fun of my Monoprice cables & K-Mart's finest APEX CD player. Synergy, baby...synergy! ;)

engtaz

07-21-2009, 10:48 PM

man this thead toke on a life of it's own. LOL LOL

mmadden28

07-22-2009, 01:11 AM

...

Edit: Speaking of vacuum tube digital computers... Some here might enjoy this link if you've not seen it before...
http://www.ominous-valve.com/vtsc.html

...

^ ^ ^ ^ ^
:d :d :d (edit--hmm smilies aren't working??)

reeltrouble1

07-27-2009, 09:27 AM

Christ Almighty, want a bunch of Amatuers, I would of thought some of you were more advanced.

First off Alphalpha sucks my Spanky.

Second there are Voltage swings possible with tubes that are not possible with sand power, duh huh, as said voltage is a part of wattage so change the voltage and you get it, at least I hope you do, if not go wash the damm sand out of your eyes, of course transistor guys seem to always be getting it kicked in there. As far as some weak ass class D amp, a perfect of example of how some techno that can be done should not be for two channel music, just another band wagon to crawl on for the have-nots of the audio world definete relative in-breeding of the cavemen computer rig nerds and their lossy files and dont give me that crap about FLAC, usb sucks, firewire, ok, but usb sucks, and is related to sand.

Tubes Rule--Sand drools and itches your crotch.

RT1

mmadden28

07-27-2009, 09:39 AM

RT1, why don't you tell us how you really feel?
:)

madmax

07-27-2009, 03:53 PM

RT1, why don't you tell us how you really feel?
:)

Yeah, I couldn't tell if he was pro transistor, pro class d or pro tube. :confused:

I had a cheapy little class D amp and it sounded like I was listening to an electrostatic speaker (through the SDA's), same qualities. I kinda liked it.

madmax

reeltrouble1

07-27-2009, 05:01 PM

funny Max, you missed your calling. I dunno maybe some ice with some horns would be nice, although you may want to have a wad of cotton around.

I did read recently in an audio article where the sand makers are in fact realizing the benefit of many smaller caps, one for each output transistor as opposed to those god awful coke can looking ear bleeding things they pushed out as high power but with a total lack of any refined sound. If sand is your bag something to take note of.

RT1

madmax

07-27-2009, 05:23 PM

heiney9

07-27-2009, 05:25 PM

You mean like this......heeeeee.....heeeee.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=40321&d=1242535536

Always hated the Coke cans and never thought they did anything but hurt the final sound. I'm not fond of any of the Japanese 70's-90's amps that seem to think effing huge caps were anything more than for eye candy.

heiney9

07-27-2009, 05:32 PM

I'm a tube man, no doubt about it. I keep looking at a particular class d amp which people are saying goes very well with the horns. I tried the little tripath amp but it didn't do anything for me with the horns. For $15 or whatever it cost it was actually pretty reasonable. If someone would make a Class D amp with a tube rectifier that might be the golden bullit. :)
madmax

I'm experimenting with a very nicely built DIY gainclone amp and a tube pre-amp for my office rig. The amp is built with all Black Gate caps, Caddock and Riken resistors, nice big torrid. Only had it a few days and the jury is still out. It has lots of positives so far, but the negatives are there as well. Very, very simple clean design, a chipamp, 4 resistors and (2) caps per board. Rectifier has (2) diodes for each channel and (4) caps. That's it. 56wpc.

http://pic6.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1248034838.jpg

http://pic6.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1248034837.jpg

http://pic8.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1248053923.jpg

H9

reeltrouble1

07-27-2009, 05:36 PM

yes brock, Bat does this as well, I cannot recall the manufacturer in the article I mentioned but this is a trend that lends to hi-fi, the many smaller caps thing, that fellow looking to improve his lsi-9 speakers should take note, its not about watts its about power and then about how that power is handled within the circuit topology, whether tube or sand is used.

But.........Tubes Rule, hehehehehehe.

Chuck you could do the same thing with a tube buffer and ice so knock yourself out and give it go, but remember no matter how much pretty you put on junk you end up with pretty junk. I would rather spend time listening to the best I can.

RT1

engtaz

07-27-2009, 06:15 PM

Just for info: 20 watt tube amp does not do well on a 100 watt minimum speaker. But 200 watt ss does fine. LOL

madmax

07-27-2009, 07:20 PM

Chuck you could do the same thing with a tube buffer and ice so knock yourself out and give it go, but remember no matter how much pretty you put on junk you end up with pretty junk. I would rather spend time listening to the best I can.

RT1

No way. With a rectifier tube I could have the slightest amout of sag and turn some digital into something else. Not sure what. Maybe just millions of bits of mess. :)

Face

07-27-2009, 07:24 PM

Just for info: 20 watt tube amp does not do well on a 100 watt minimum speaker. But 200 watt ss does fine. LOL

What amp, what speakers?

madmax

07-27-2009, 07:26 PM

I keep looking at this one.
http://www.hawkaudio.com/amp/HD-702.htm

mmadden28

07-27-2009, 07:52 PM

How about a couple custom Dodd Tube mono's

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1253476745&/Dodd-Audio-Custom
On sale now....:cool:
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/mmadden28/PolkAudio%20Forum/1248292611.jpg
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/mmadden28/PolkAudio%20Forum/1248292608.jpg

Face

07-27-2009, 07:54 PM

How about a couple custom Dodd Tube mono's

That's Danny of GR Research.

F1nut

07-27-2009, 07:56 PM

Those DODD's look sweet!!!

madmax

07-27-2009, 08:25 PM

I'd want my pair in purple. Or red.

engtaz

07-27-2009, 08:40 PM

What amp, what speakers?

Bogen SRB-20 and Carver M500, Phase Linear Andromeda

GV#27

07-27-2009, 09:14 PM

As far as some weak ass class D amp a perfect of example of how some techno that can be done should not be for two channel music, just another band wagon to crawl on for the have-nots of the audio world definete relative in-breeding of the cavemen computer rig nerds and their lossy files and dont give me that crap about FLAC, usb sucks, firewire, ok, but usb sucks, and is related to sand.Thats a lot of hostility for young fella that was just on a holiday in the tropics,did we get hit on the head with a falling coconut while at the tiki bar?

I outright dismissed Class D for anything other than subwoofer use until I heard the Hypex's,they are surprisingly good and not at all the harsh, sterile clinical sound I was expecting.

Always hated the Coke cans and never thought they did anything but hurt the final sound. I'm not fond of any of the Japanese 70's-90's amps that seem to think effing huge caps were anything more than for eye candy.As did the Thresholds ,Krells,ML's and Bryston's of that era.

I'm experimenting with a very nicely built DIY gainclone amp ... Very, very simple clean design, a chipamp, 4 resistors and (2) caps per board. Well simple in that it needs few external components but just like any IC opamp it is quite complex with dozens of transistors ,resistors, capacitors,diodes etc. within the chips die.

Serendipity

07-27-2009, 10:38 PM

Not all watts are created equal.

I've heard 15 watt tube amps that sound better than my 50w/ch Onkyo. (Or their claimed 100*7)

heiney9

07-27-2009, 10:50 PM

Well simple in that it needs few external components but just like any IC opamp it is quite complex with dozens of transistors ,resistors, capacitors,diodes etc. within the chips die.

That's exactly what I meant. Simple to build and easy to understand because of the "other" parts as part of the IC.

How do you like your LM3875? This amp has me really intrigued coming from discrete amps. Using a tube pre right now and trying to find the correct synergy with my 5B's.

H9

Face

07-27-2009, 11:02 PM

Bogen SRB-20
What is that, about 40 years old? :rolleyes:

Zero

07-27-2009, 11:29 PM

madmax

07-28-2009, 12:22 PM

I know we all have our opinion/belief/what we think/feel is fact, but.. wow, I see lot's of definitive statements coming from people who have hardly scraped the surface of whats out there. This isn't to say that I'm any better, but sheesh...

These are pretty strong statements. We try to get along with each other here at club polk. Are you trying to cause trouble?

Zero

07-28-2009, 01:04 PM

Meh? *blinks innocently*. Nevuh. So boys, how about those power cables and isolation tweaks.... ? :)

madmax

07-28-2009, 01:26 PM

Trouble, I knew it from the start. :D
So what are we missing here as we scratch upon the surface?
madmax

Zero

07-28-2009, 04:09 PM

Madmax - Guilty as charged! :D

Don't read too much into the comments. I just sigh whenever I see people casting aside an entire topology/gear type. There are so many interpretations of design out there in audio that even if you had free access to everything, you wouldn't be able to experience it all in a lifetime. Even those of us who go through gear on a monthly basis have yet to really scratch the surface of all that is out there. I just wish that audiophiles in general could look beyond their own bias more often.

xsmi

07-28-2009, 04:09 PM

Really quick how do you get the Carver tube amps?

engtaz

07-28-2009, 05:41 PM

http://www.carveraudio.com/phpBB3/index.php?sid=cb59453aaa209dc88f92a543d76eaf5c Go here and read.

xsmi

07-28-2009, 06:43 PM

Well I can't afford those on a teacher's salary.

madmax

07-28-2009, 07:50 PM

I just wish that audiophiles in general could look beyond their own bias more often.

Tube guys can't do that, it causes problems.
madmax

Face

07-28-2009, 08:07 PM

I can't keep my eyes off this: http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1253049523&/Cary-120S-Jensen-Oil-Caps-Mod

http://pic6.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1247865493.jpg

beardog03

07-28-2009, 08:17 PM

^^^oooooohhhh

niiice !!

reeltrouble1

07-29-2009, 09:24 AM

tubes rule.

D is for--Dodd is Dandy
C is for--Cary is Cool
B is for--Bat is Beautiful
M is for--Manely which is Marvelous

S is for Sand which is Screechy
I is for Ice which is Icky.

T of course is for Tubes which are Terrific.

RT1--That is All

mhardy6647

07-29-2009, 10:02 AM

Face

07-29-2009, 11:02 AM

tubes rule.

D is for--Dodd is Dandy
M is for--Manely which is Marvelous
B is for--Bat is Beautiful

S is for Sand which is Screechy
C is for--Cary is Cool
I is for Ice which is Icky.
T of course is for Tubes which are Terrific.

RT1--That is All

Put it all together and it spells Dmb ScitFixed. :D

slack56

07-29-2009, 04:21 PM

Tube vs SS???? Too funny. I'll be the first to admit I like the sound of tubes for vocals but, you can find warm sounding SS amps also. I would love to hear a perfectly neutral amp. Not bright, not warm, just play everything as the recording engineer heard it. Seems to me you would need a good headphone amp for your Sony MDR 7506's. I know my Denon 3803 doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as a tube amp for some of you but it will have to do for now. Some of us have money constraints, and dollar for dollar SS will get you more for your money and it's maintenance free.
Doesn't it really depend on the music you listen to anyway? What if your rig has to double as a home theater? This debate could rage on until they don't make tubes anymore.
And by the way I am still using my little NAD 3150 which is going strong after 30 years for my two channel rig (10A's). LOL Great for a little Diana Krall but for Tool, give me 7 channel stereo in my home theater with my JL Audio subs. If you have a Telarc recording of Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture, give me 7.2 channels and you will duck when the cannons go off.
Just my humble opinion.

G

madmax

07-29-2009, 04:29 PM

What if your rig has to double as a home theater?

G

Nothing wrong with an all tube HT setup. I had one for awhile and it was awesome! Only thing is, I'm more into music so I let it go.
madmax

slack56

07-29-2009, 08:12 PM

Wow a HT tube setup, that must have set you back. I am sure it sounded awesome. Even tho I am 52 and grew up on 2 channel, I still love music surrounding me too. I have a Carlos Santana Presents - Blues At Montreux 2004 DVD and to listen to Buddy Guy in DTS or DD 5.1 is a real treat. I relish DVD-A or SACD. Too bad the general public is going MP3. I still have more vinyl than CD's and I love to show off the sonic superiority of records over CD's but DVD audio has really bridged the gap. Well, since I don't have a Quadraphonic decoder the only surround sound I will get will be with either a DTS or DD cd or a DVD.

G

PS
I will never disrespect tube amps, a friend has an old set of Magnaplanars on their own McIntosh tube amps and it is an incredible experience. It lacks the bass I've become accustomed to but I suppose he could ruin it by adding a sub. I love the huge soundstage, and the imaging is so good it's scary, but alas I will have to suffer with my meager setups. (I actually love my equipment)

megasat16

07-30-2009, 12:39 AM

I've been busy playing a bit with Tube Killer SS Preamp. Just a few days and Tube Guys are Making A Big Deal out of light bulbs.

Who cares about Tube Glows when you can see real gold in the dark?

slack56

07-30-2009, 01:01 AM

mmadden28

07-30-2009, 01:05 AM

That thing is from the 80's (if I'm correct)--I doubt its got rechargeable batteries in it. :p

But the simplicity and clean design sure is sweet looking.

megasat16

07-30-2009, 01:06 AM

That thing is from the 80's--I doubt its got rechargeable batteries in it. :p

But the simplicity and clean design sure is sweet looking.

Ever heard the saying "OLD IS GOLD" ;)

There is Gold in there if you don't believe it. :cool:

mmadden28

07-30-2009, 01:10 AM

S is for Sand which is Screechy
...

You are aware that there is quite a bit of sand in tubes ya know...;):p

megasat16

07-30-2009, 01:11 AM

That is an impressive looking preamp. I don't know exactly what I am looking at, capacitors, rectifiers, diodes, resistors, transistors, rechargeable batteries, but they look beautiful to me. I always wondered how you keep the dust out tho. (question for the people who leave the tube amps open) What amps will this beauty control?

G

Thanks! It's a beautiful preamp with caps, resistors, rectifiers (diodes), transistors all there...:D But no rechargeable batteries. :)

It'll be driving one of my amps in this post.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1104125&postcount=1

GV#27

07-30-2009, 01:17 AM

Cool,that may have been Nelson's first foray into Fets?The chrome cans in the upper left step up transformers for MC phono cart?

megasat16

07-30-2009, 01:26 AM

Cool,that may have been Nelson's first foray into Fets?The chrome cans in the upper left step up transformers for MC phono cart?

Yep! It may well be Nelson's First Attempt to get into FETs Class A Preamp. It also is STASIS design.

You are absolutely right. These are the step up transformers for MC Phono Cart.

Sound? No stinkin Tube Would Sounds that Good.....:D

slack56

07-30-2009, 01:31 AM

Very nice collection of amps, looks like about 30 years worth.

G

megasat16

07-30-2009, 02:11 AM

I did read recently in an audio article where the sand makers are in fact realizing the benefit of many smaller caps, one for each output transistor as opposed to those god awful coke can looking ear bleeding things they pushed out as high power but with a total lack of any refined sound. If sand is your bag something to take note of.

RT1

So, you've been reading an Audio Magazine from the early 90s? As I recall, most manufacturers (domestics or foreign brands alike) would use a bank of smaller caps in parallel as power supply filter caps (aka reservoir caps) in the lower end models to cut cost and will only use the bigger Beer Cans in the higher up models. The advantage? Saving more to make better margins. And easier to implement since they are small and can put into smaller chassis. Well, it's was a good thinking.

If you are reading a very recent article, it may be just that they are renewing the old trend to make more money. That's all....:D

You mean like this......heeeeee.....heeeee.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=40321&d=1242535536

Always hated the Coke cans and never thought they did anything but hurt the final sound. I'm not fond of any of the Japanese 70's-90's amps that seem to think effing huge caps were anything more than for eye candy.

Nice and clean looking amp there, H9! But it is another BS from manufactures that a bank of smaller caps would work better than beer cans coz the high end Sand Amps will have a Bank of Beer Cans in it. A good sounding amp or a crappy sounding amp has all to do with the overall design and build and little to do with whether beer cans or small caps banks are used. Usually, an amp with beer can caps will have some kind of bypass caps (smaller value caps) too.

The Onkyo Grand Integra M-508 has 4 x 10000uF caps in each channel. So, Japs has been doing that to cut cost in the mid 80s. I am sure our American Manufacturer were doing the same with the smaller caps around that time.

Zero

07-30-2009, 03:10 AM

If you think you can do better than Nelson Pass, than go right on ahead...

megasat16

07-30-2009, 03:20 AM

If you think you can do better than Nelson Pass, than go right on ahead...

The question is are you asking me or someone else? I did not remember I said I can do better than NP.

Where do you get that from anyway?

I don't even make an amp for a living. I just study many different amp designs and compare them. NP is undoubtedly a Genius and gifted in creating a good sounding audio equipments.

Zero

07-30-2009, 03:46 AM

Nevuh mind - I may have misread your comments. It's well past midnight and I'm just lucky to still be clothed and typing somewhat coherently on this keyboard! :p

reeltrouble1

07-30-2009, 10:51 AM

I've been busy playing a bit with Tube Killer SS Preamp. Just a few days and Tube Guys are Making A Big Deal out of light bulbs.

Who cares about Tube Glows when you can see real gold in the dark?

fools gold I tell ya, fools gold.

the world will end in fire or ice, I choose fire.

Tubes Rule.

RT1

megasat16

07-31-2009, 03:50 PM

fools gold I tell ya, fools gold.

the world will end in fire or ice, I choose fire.

Tubes Rule.

RT1

Well, Gold is Gold. I am not happy with either ICE or FIRE so far.

Beware the Glow of Light Bulbs. Their shine is bewitching to the man with a faint heart.

madmax

07-31-2009, 04:04 PM

So, you've been reading an Audio Magazine from the early 90s? As I recall, most manufacturers (domestics or foreign brands alike) would use a bank of smaller caps in parallel as power supply filter caps (aka reservoir caps) in the lower end models to cut cost and will only use the bigger Beer Cans in the higher up models. The advantage? Saving more to make better margins. And easier to implement since they are small and can put into smaller chassis. Well, it's was a good thinking.

If you are reading a very recent article, it may be just that they are renewing the old trend to make more money. That's all....:D

I'm thinking RT1 found something new here. The old idea was to bank them up to save money. What RT1 is saying is to seperate into individual caps right at the entrance to each output transistor. What this would do is to keep trace (or wire) losses from lowering voltages on big dynamic hits to the supply. For example, a cap right at the output transistor can deliver all of the stored charge when called for while keeping trace losses only pertinent to charging the caps back up. Great idea, better dynamic performance while being the same price as a bank or cheaper than a big cap! One more thing to add to my bag of tricks. :)

madmax

sucks2beme

07-31-2009, 04:13 PM

Some of us prefer our sand processed a bit more! (Go glass!)
Sand or glass, good gear is good gear. I'd NEVER
turn down a Pass amp/preamp just because it's SS.

mhardy6647

07-31-2009, 05:18 PM

Some of us prefer our sand processed a bit more! (Go glass!)
Sand or glass, good gear is good gear. I'd NEVER
turn down a Pass amp/preamp just because it's SS.

... or one of his power amps.

cnh

07-31-2009, 09:48 PM

... or one of his power amps.

Have to agree with both of you...and will be looking for a NP pre-amp soon!

cnh

heiney9

08-01-2009, 01:07 AM

Have to agree with both of you...and will be looking for a NP pre-amp soon!

cnh

Here you go:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1254239465&/Pass-Labs-Aleph-P-balanced-rem

:D:D

megasat16

08-01-2009, 02:11 PM

Here you go:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1254239465&/Pass-Labs-Aleph-P-balanced-rem

:D:D

You being a Huge Pass Fan, I am wondering you would know the sonic difference between Aleph P and Threshold FET 1 Series II Stasis pre. :D

I know Aleph P has balanced circuitry but I don't mind not having it. How would they compare sonically? How about GFA 750 stacks up to the Aleph P? :cool:

megasat16

08-01-2009, 02:22 PM

I'm thinking RT1 found something new here. The old idea was to bank them up to save money. What RT1 is saying is to seperate into individual caps right at the entrance to each output transistor. What this would do is to keep trace (or wire) losses from lowering voltages on big dynamic hits to the supply. For example, a cap right at the output transistor can deliver all of the stored charge when called for while keeping trace losses only pertinent to charging the caps back up. Great idea, better dynamic performance while being the same price as a bank or cheaper than a big cap! One more thing to add to my bag of tricks. :)

madmax

It's possible to use filter caps close to each output transistors for the amps with less than 2-4 transistors for each channel. Remember you'll need a trace for (source in MOSFET and collector in BJT) for each transistor. So, if you have multiple transistors in one channel, designing a PCB with a trace for each transistor could be a nightmare.

If a substantial voltage drop during high dynamic power driving low impedance load is the primary concern for an amp, it should have fully regulated Power Supply Section which itself is a power amplifier. :) But remember, nothing is bullet proof in the audio amplifier. With enough time provided, any good amp will give up driving a hard load at a very loud volume. I guess the hearing will probably give up way before though. :D

GV#27

08-01-2009, 02:29 PM

I know Aleph P has balanced circuitry but I don't mind not having it. How would they compare sonically? How about GFA 750 stacks up to the Aleph P? :cool:The Aleph P and 750 have the same basic gain stages(differential pair of Mosfets) based on the DIY Bride of the Son of Zen pre, which is the balanced version of the single ended Bride of ZEN.One would expect the there to be a strong family resemlence between them.I have built two Bride of ZEN's and think it a great sounding little pre.

heiney9

08-01-2009, 02:36 PM

The 750 is very close to being the Aleph P, it's completely based on it. They did some cost cutting is some area's but it is an outstanding pre. Here are a couple interesting threads about the 750. Take the first one with a grain of salt as it's just one modders opinion.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/adcom-gfp-750-diy-mod-finally-finished-warning-not-dial-up-friendly-loads-pics-392211/

This is the thread from DIY audio......................very, very informative.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37960&highlight=

GV#27

08-01-2009, 02:44 PM

Mega,if you are interested in hearing a BOZ vs your FET1 ,I can send you one for an audition.

GV#27

08-01-2009, 02:49 PM

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/adcom-gfp-750-diy-mod-finally-finished-warning-not-dial-up-friendly-loads-pics-392211/

I'm not sure of the brand of those blue caps used for input and output coupling but I would want to replace them.I believe the Aleph P used the Panasonic ECQ's.

megasat16

08-01-2009, 02:59 PM

Mega,if you are interested in hearing a BOZ vs your FET1 ,I can send you one for an audition.

Wow! What an Awesome Offer. ;) I am seriously thinking about it but I am thinking potential risk from shipping to and from Canada and Cali. :)

megasat16

08-01-2009, 03:04 PM

The Aleph P and 750 have the same basic gain stages(differential pair of Mosfets) based on the DIY Bride of the Son of Zen pre, which is the balanced version of the single ended Bride of ZEN.One would expect the there to be a strong family resemlence between them.I have built two Bride of ZEN's and think it a great sounding little pre.

Thanks again for chiming in! ;) I also think the family resemblance between Aleph P, Threshold FET Pre, Adcom GFP750 and Nak CA-5/CA-7 pre. From what I can see, Pass had got rid of Tone Control in the Threshold FET in the the mid 80s where it was very popular among many other brands. But I am not missing it.

The 750 is very close to being the Aleph P, it's completely based on it. They did some cost cutting is some area's but it is an outstanding pre. Here are a couple interesting threads about the 750. Take the first one with a grain of salt as it's just one modders opinion.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/adcom-gfp-750-diy-mod-finally-finished-warning-not-dial-up-friendly-loads-pics-392211/

This is the thread from DIY audio......................very, very informative.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37960&highlight=

Thanks H9 for the linky! ;) How are you liking your new GainClone? :)

madmax

08-01-2009, 03:29 PM

It's possible to use filter caps close to each output transistors for the amps with less than 2-4 transistors for each channel. Remember you'll need a trace for (source in MOSFET and collector in BJT) for each transistor. So, if you have multiple transistors in one channel, designing a PCB with a trace for each transistor could be a nightmare.

If a substantial voltage drop during high dynamic power driving low impedance load is the primary concern for an amp, it should have fully regulated Power Supply Section which itself is a power amplifier. :) But remember, nothing is bullet proof in the audio amplifier. With enough time provided, any good amp will give up driving a hard load at a very loud volume. I guess the hearing will probably give up way before though. :D

I see you are still not getting the idea. Maybe re-read what I said if you are interested. If not, just move on. Its a clever idea he is talking about.
madmax

megasat16

08-01-2009, 03:49 PM

I see you are still not getting the idea. Maybe re-read what I said if you are interested. If not, just move on. Its a clever idea he is talking about.
madmax

Honestly, I may got the wrong idea. I did re-read and I came to the same conclusion. It's a clever idea for an amplifier with small number of output transistors. But for an amplifier with large amount of output transistors, I couldn't imagine. May be coz I didn't get the point before and still not getting it after re-reading your post and RT1 post. So, I decided to move on and left it till better explanation comes along the way.

GV#27

08-01-2009, 03:50 PM

I see you are still not getting the idea. Maybe re-read what I said if you are interested. If not, just move on. Its a clever idea he is talking about.
madmaxIt is advantagous to have the filter capacitance reservoir close to the circuit it feeds( ie.output stage) and a number of designers do this.Also Having multiple smaller caps (vs a single large one) in parallel will result in a lowered ESR.

megasat16

08-01-2009, 03:56 PM

It is advantagous to have the filter capacitance resivour close to the circuit it feeds( ie.output stage) and a number of designers do this.Also Having multiple smaller caps in parrallel will result in a lowered ESR.

This is not the same thing as what the new method of utilizing smaller caps. That's why I am not getting it yet.

I'm thinking RT1 found something new here. The old idea was to bank them up to save money. What RT1 is saying is to seperate into individual caps right at the entrance to each output transistor. What this would do is to keep trace (or wire) losses from lowering voltages on big dynamic hits to the supply. For example, a cap right at the output transistor can deliver all of the stored charge when called for while keeping trace losses only pertinent to charging the caps back up. Great idea, better dynamic performance while being the same price as a bank or cheaper than a big cap! One more thing to add to my bag of tricks. :)

madmax

GV#27

08-01-2009, 03:58 PM

This is not the same thing as what the new method of utilizing smaller caps. That's why I am not getting it yet.I think the gist of his post was that having the capacitance close to the circuit it is feeding is benificial.With opamp circuits decoupling caps are often placed very close to the chip's body to reduce the effects of circuit trace inductance and resistance.

megasat16

08-01-2009, 04:04 PM

It might be something to do with the faster charge/discharge rates of the smaller caps.

True with smaller caps. But each cap for each transistor? I am trying to picture 14 small caps near 14 output transistors. Also, more parts, more chance of failure. Mounted Near the Power Transistors? Higher Rate of failure due to thermal aging. Even if it's possible to have 14 traces for collector / source on the PCB, I will take a little higher ESR over it. :)

GV#27

08-01-2009, 04:20 PM

But each cap for each transistor? Thats abit extreme and have never seen such a thing done to that extent.Most will have some local decoupling of some sort with a main filter cap bank feeding them.I have seen a number of designs that have had the main filter cap bank placed very close to the output stage.Interconnection to the supply was via short heavy guage wire and or wide PC board traces.

madmax

08-01-2009, 04:20 PM

Thats fine. Just to redefine the idea since I think its a cool one :). Suppose you had an amp with 16 FETS, 8 per channel, and wanted your supply to have two 16000 uF caps, one for the positive supply, the other for the negative supply. Three ways you could go. 1: Two 16000 uF caps at the end of the supply. 2: Sixteen 1000uF caps wired in a bank at the end of the supply (to save money). 3: Sixteen 1000uF caps, each one located right next to the source of each FET effectively removing any resistance between the supply and the fets (as opposed to having long wiring or traces with maybe 0.1 ohms). This could easily give you about and extra .8 V on your FET sources when driving a 4 ohm load for an extra 8 watts output per FET (128W when multiplied by the 16 FETS) during a peak. Of course this doesn't doesn't give you squat for extra average power, only the peaks since you still have to wait for the caps to charge back up. Not a shabby gain given you've saved money by using seperate caps and didn't spend anything extra on the transformer. Sorry, I just get into getting something for nothing. Just too cool not to do. :)