center channel for sda speakers-experiment

[maandjojo]

Had a few moments Saturday night to experiment with the crs I'm using as a center channel for my 2.3 tls'. Everything sounded fine but I was just curious. With just 2 channel they sure as hell didn't need any help with vocals or anything else that would have used the center channel so I did a very easy a b test using the speaker set up on my receiver. In surround mode with both dts 5.1 and dd 5.1 the soundstage sounded better just using the 2.3s' w/o a center channel speaker. There is no doubt in my mind that it was the tweeters. When I switched back and forth several times you could here the distinct difference in tone and smoothness without any gaps due to no center channel.
You have to wonder if when using any high end floorstanding speakers is a center channel really necessary. I can understand the use in a satellite system but it looks like a waste of money otherwise.
If anyone else has done some experiments with there set up please chime in.

Joe

[apphd]

I use a cc but have gone with mains and phantom mode before as many others have/are. With my experience IMO a cc is not a necessity, but in some circumstances it sure does help. I think it is due to many different reasons.

The main/only reason for a cc is to anchor center stage sound (majority of a movie soundtrack) to the center near the visual that goes with it. It is very distracting to the brain when you see an action but the sound location does not correlate with where you are seeing it.

So I think the quality of your R and L speakers, along with your seating location, combined with your room acoustics and your brains sensitivity to sound/visual relationship will tell you if you need a cc or not. YMMV

[nooshinjohn]

I have found much the same as you guys in regards to the center channel and SDA's. I have constructed my own voice-matched center as a result. I find that having vocals anchored firmly in the center sounds much better for movies and television. I am still tweeking it a bit, but so far the results are a nearly transparent transition from left to right and a more accurate vocal soundstage for movie viewing. My goal is to make the center's presence as close to invisible as possible, while still being able to localize dialog and center action

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84292

[JohnLocke88]

I use a cc but have gone with mains and phantom mode before as many others have/are. With my experience IMO a cc is not a necessity, but in some circumstances it sure does help. I think it is due to many different reasons.

The main/only reason for a cc is to anchor center stage sound (majority of a movie soundtrack) to the center near the visual that goes with it. It is very distracting to the brain when you see an action but the sound location does not correlate with where you are seeing it.

So I think the quality of your R and L speakers, along with your seating location, combined with your room acoustics and your brains sensitivity to sound/visual relationship will tell you if you need a cc or not. YMMV

I may be wrong, but I've heard that a CC is even more important when you have a seating position off of center... for the reason you stated above.

[Schurkey]

I like having a center channel primarily because it allows me to artificially increase the volume of the dialoge without increasing the volume of the "special effects"--explosions and such.

Makes my HT more intelligible.

[bsoko2]

I'm using a Paradigm CC390 for my center with main 2.3's. Works well for my large room.

Bill

[apphd]

I may be wrong, but I've heard that a CC is even more important when you have a seating position off of center... for the reason you stated above.


I would have to agree with that. If your seating is more centered to a L or R the sound will become unbalanced accordingly. Sounds that are supposed to be off center and intended to be heard from the left or right will be more centered. Some movies can just mess with your head and become less enjoyable when your eyes and ears contradict each other. Phantom mode with the right speakers can give you a good center stage effect for a pretty wide sweet spot but can only overcome so much.

For me it's like buying a car. I don't care how comfortable the back seat is as I will not be sitting there. You don't like the ride in my car next time you drive:D While I do like my HT to have a good sound for as many as possible, I know it will sound good from my seat.;)

Not real familiar with the SDA's, a friend had a pair of the larger ones long enough ago I forget the sound. For you owners using them as mains in a HT, does the SDA effect help or hinder your CC?

[McLoki]

The SDA effect has a small enough sweet spot that it is not a good repacement for a center channel. (i.e. - if your seating resembles a tobaggan - you are good to go - if not, you may want a center channel - for those in doubt, here is a pic that describes it better than words....

This is from the Chicago Polkfest - guess what 3 were in the SDA sweetspot....

http://www.polkaudio.com/images/showcase/394_55_big.jpg

[OldmanSRS]

If I'm the only one watching the movie, I usually run in 2CH mode (with sub). From the sweet spot, it sounds fantastic with the voices seeming to come from the screen/CC speaker. Others have listened to music in 2CH mode and don't believe the CC is not turned on. They actually go up to it and listen closely.

[kn505]

I have the 2.3TL and plan to use them for home theater. I am wondering what center speaker would work well with them. For those using SDA with a center speaker, what center speaker do you have?

[maandjojo]

As an update, for reasons stated here and elsewhere, I have gone back to the use of a center channel. In my quest for a better timbre match I have a CS400I on the way. There are a few folks that have stated it is a very good match. When I receive it and give it a go I will let you know what I find. Using the crs' with my srs II was a damn good match but not as good with the 2.3TLs'.

Joe

[nooshinjohn]

I have found that using the setup programs on the AV receiver to be ineffective when balancing a system running SDA's. I have gone through and set everything manually in order to achieve proper balance. I run the center channel at about two thirds of the volume level prescribed by the auto setup program

[BB3]

I have found that using the setup programs on the AV receiver to be ineffective when balancing a system running SDA's. I have gone through and set everything manually in order to achieve proper balance. I run the center channel at about two thirds of the volume level prescribed by the auto setup program

Thank you for the information on this nooshinjohn. I'll be facing a similar situation here in the next couple of weeks.

I still need to purchase a center channel speaker, or was even thinking of using 2 center channel speakers. I thought about dual Polk LSI's. Mainly because of the quality of sound that I hear they produce and because of their gloss black finish, they would coordinate well with my Sony XBR(gloss black frame) being wall mounted above or below the tv.

What do you think ?

For what it is worth, I am just flat out blown away with what you were able to produce for a center channel. Very Impressive Work My Friend.

Sincerely, B.B.3

[slack56]

The CS400i is not a timbre match for my 10A's. It's pretty close but I gave up and I am now using RT1000's for my fronts in my HT and put the 10A's back in my two channel rig. The RT's are okay for HT but are lacking in musicality to me. The RT1000, CS400, FX500 and RT2000 (rear center) is as close as timbre matching will get in my house for years to come.

G

PS Still looking for a pair of CRS+ to replace the 10A's

[Ron Temple]

The CS400i in my rig isn't a perfect match, but it's close enough that I never notice with my underhung placement. It's a more laid back center than the next few CSi revs, offers crisp dialog without sibilance and just adds to the front soundstage without being noticeably different. It's a big enough center that it can be run large and keep up with the mains. That's all I ask.

[RCFGuitars]

I have found that using the setup programs on the AV receiver to be ineffective when balancing a system running SDA's. I have gone through and set everything manually in order to achieve proper balance. I run the center channel at about two thirds of the volume level prescribed by the auto setup program

+ 1 AVR setup programs have never worked well for my SDA sytems. Manual adjustments have always been required.

[RCFGuitars]

I still need to purchase a center channel speaker, or was even thinking of using 2 center channel speakers.

I've been using 2 matching centers for a couple of months now, and I think it works quite well. Especially for movie / TV watchers outside of the sweet spot. I originally had both above the screen, but a couple of weeks ago I tried setting them vertically, directly next to the screen on either side. In my room, this seems to work great. A nice big soundstage, without the dialogue getting lost in the action, even if you move around the room.

[Polkie2009]

guess what 3 were in the SDA sweetspot? LOL, definitely the 3 in the middle with the smiles on there faces, although there's one guy in back who may be getting in on it.

[nooshinjohn]

Thank you for the information on this nooshinjohn. I'll be facing a similar situation here in the next couple of weeks.

I still need to purchase a center channel speaker, or was even thinking of using 2 center channel speakers. I thought about dual Polk LSI's. Mainly because of the quality of sound that I hear they produce and because of their gloss black finish, they would coordinate well with my Sony XBR(gloss black frame) being wall mounted above or below the tv.

What do you think ?

For what it is worth, I am just flat out blown away with what you were able to produce for a center channel. Very Impressive Work My Friend.

Sincerely, B.B.3

I can provide the crossover points I am using and have an extra CSia6 and drivers to anyone wanting to repeat my work. I am going to make a few more tweeks to the croosover in order to bring down the highs just a touch and get a bit more lower end out of it. I am more than happy to assist in any way I can... I like the LSiC, but again it is not voice matched, so two of them may sound ok, but it will not provide the seamless quality that you are looking for.

[BB3]

I can provide the crossover points I am using and have an extra CSia6 and drivers to anyone wanting to repeat my work. I am going to make a few more tweeks to the croosover in order to bring down the highs just a touch and get a bit more lower end out of it. I am more than happy to assist in any way I can... I like the LSiC, but again it is not voice matched, so two of them may sound ok, but it will not provide the seamless quality that you are looking for.

nooshinjohn,Thank you for your time in responding to this matter. The voice matching with the LSI's was and is my biggest concern.
So I guess the LSI's just are not going to get it done, are they ?
--------B.B.3

[nooshinjohn]

To my knowlege, the best match came from the CS1000, which I believe was part of the SRT system. Don't get me wrong, as the LSiC is a great speaker, but it uses different drivers and as a result, the matching will be off by more than a little.

[BB3]

To my knowlege, the best match came from the CS1000, which I believe was part of the SRT system. Don't get me wrong, as the LSiC is a great speaker, but it uses different drivers and as a result, the matching will be off by more than a little.

Thank you again for all of your input nooshinjohn. Greatly Appreciated.----B.B.3

[maandjojo]

This is the conversation I was hoping for when I started this thread. I was surprised in the beginning, there were so few bites but lately there have been a lot of opinions being floated.
I am surprised at the number of people using two centers with sdas'. I would lean against this because of the sdas' setup. You position them closer together than a normal setup and I want more from them than a center. Please educate me on this.

Joe

[BB3]

This is the conversation I was hoping for when I started this thread. I was surprised in the beginning, there were so few bites but lately there have been a lot of opinions being floated.
I am surprised at the number of people using two centers with sdas'. I would lean against this because of the sdas' setup. You position them closer together than a normal setup and I want more from them than a center. Please educate me on this.

Joe
maandjojo, thanks for your thoughts on the 2 center channel configuration.
Sad to say, but I really don't know what to do now, as far as what speaker to buy and how I should set it all up.
OH BOY !........

[McLoki]

As an update, for reasons stated here and elsewhere, I have gone back to the use of a center channel. In my quest for a better timbre match I have a CS400I on the way. There are a few folks that have stated it is a very good match. When I receive it and give it a go I will let you know what I find. Using the crs' with my srs II was a damn good match but not as good with the 2.3TLs'.

Joe

If you look in this thread (http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55888) under SDA Compact Reference System (CRS) Models there is a schematic for a crossover modification that can be done so your CRS speakers can use the same SL3000 tweeter as your 2.3tl's.

That would probably be your best match for a center imo.

Michael

[CaligulaPolk]

The SDA effect has a small enough sweet spot that it is not a good repacement for a center channel. (i.e. - if your seating resembles a tobaggan - you are good to go - if not, you may want a center channel - for those in doubt, here is a pic that describes it better than words....

This is from the Chicago Polkfest - guess what 3 were in the SDA sweetspot....

http://www.polkaudio.com/images/showcase/394_55_big.jpg

wife looks mad or something :D

[McLoki]

That was Aarons wife (the tall guy in the green shirt in the back). Probably mad she had to share a couch with Ricardo... :D

[maandjojo]

BB3, I will let you know how the CS400i turns out.

Joe

[slack56]

I have three center channels in the house, CS400i, CS300, CSi30. Of the three I found the CSi30 the best sounding of the 3. I like the more forward presentation of the CSi30. Also timbre wise it's a closer match with the non-Peerless SL1000 replacement tweeters in my Monitor 10A's. How it would compare with your SL3000 tweeters I don't know. If I had two functioning Peerless tweeters I would go with the CS400i. It is a beast in the bass department and will keep up very well with most speakers. The CS300 is pretty rare and has the same timbre match as the CS400i just a step below in bass output but the same in upper mids to higher frequencies. In fact, often I prefer the smaller CS300 over the CS400i because the smaller mids in the CS300 seem to make dialogue a little easier to understand. Now I only have a Denon 3803 so perhaps with more power the CS400i would sound a little less sloppy and more like the CS300 and the CSi30 in midrange articulation.
I once ran the center channel through my NAD amp and put the CS300 above the screen and the CS400i below it. The dialogue was anchored to the screen so well I was shocked at the difference. Above or below the screen either CS speaker sounded good but above and below it sounded great.
This winter I am going to upgrade the 10A's to the RDO tweeters. If the timbre match is closer to the CS400i then I will sell the RT1000's and move the 10A's and the NAD amp to the home theater with a dual center channel. I will then have one room for HT and music.
By the way the CSi30 is still in the bedroom. I have R15's and R20's which are a perfect timbre match in there.

G

[BB3]

BB3, I will let you know how the CS400i turns out.

Joe

Thank You Joe. Please Do.--------Bill

[GaryW]

I use a Csi5 for center channel. I have SRS SDA 2 , for power I have a Sunfire Theater Grand receiver 3. I also have a CSi 30 but prefer the CSI 5. I think it works great with the SDA's.

[BB3]

I use a Csi5 for center channel. I have SRS SDA 2 , for power I have a Sunfire Theater Grand receiver 3. I also have a CSi 30 but prefer the CSI 5. I think it works great with the SDA's.

Thank you for your thoughts on this matter GaryW.-----B.B.3

[maandjojo]

Hey Gary I'm sure it does but not sure of the timbre match. It not so much what centers do well with sdas' but which ones match the different models. The crs' match real well with the srs 2s' but not so with 2.3tls'.

Joe

[civilian]

the CS1000, which I believe was part of the SRT system.
Close, but it was part of the RT5000 System, consisting of the RT3000P, CS1000P, f/x1000, and a sub. The SRT System was similar only on steroids.

[kawizx9r]

One common trend Ive seen among those using SDA's as part of their HT, is a CC from the RT line. I personally run a CS350 and can tell you that I can not in anyway hear a difference. It stands out just slightly but thats when I manually boost the CC's output by .5 or 1db during some movies, otherwise it blends it nicely. The added bonus to this is my center channel is also timbre matched to my surrounds :D

[BB3]

One common trend Ive seen among those using SDA's as part of their HT, is a CC from the RT line. I personally run a CS350 and can tell you that I can not in anyway hear a difference. It stands out just slightly but thats when I manually boost the CC's output by .5 or 1db during some movies, otherwise it blends it nicely. The added bonus to this is my center channel is also timbre matched to my surrounds :D

kawizx9r,

Thank you for your thoughts on this. -----B.B.3

[maandjojo]

Received the cs400i and at first wasn't too impressed with it but after a bit of listening I'm beginning to warm up to it. I understand the need for the center channel, expecially for movies. It does give the home theatre the movie theatre sound. Center is more up front without being overbaring. The timbre match is close, not exact but as I said it may be due to the different feeling you get. Voices seem to be a bit clearer and more forward.
I will definately say that a center channel speaker made to be a center channel is easy to hear the difference than a center channel wannabe.
So right now I give it one thumb up but it could very well be two thumbs up in time.

Joe

[Ron Temple]

Received the cs400i and at first wasn't too impressed with it but after a bit of listening I'm beginning to warm up to it. I understand the need for the center channel, expecially for movies. It does give the home theatre the movie theatre sound. Center is more up front without being overbaring. The timbre match is close, not exact but as I said it may be due to the different feeling you get. Voices seem to be a bit clearer and more forward.
I will definately say that a center channel speaker made to be a center channel is easy to hear the difference than a center channel wannabe.
So right now I give it one thumb up but it could very well be two thumbs up in time.

JoeI think that's a pretty accurate assessment. When I plugged mine in, I wasn't blown away either. However, dialog is centered, the voices articulate, it's uncolored, it keeps up with the mains (which can get fairly lively) and is a close match. For movies, it does everything it's supposed to. For music, it can give you a surprising amount of bass when run large with plenty of power. It is a tad forward of the SDA soundstage, but again it blends well with them in multi-channel mixes. It's certainly not a turn off or distracting. Never use it for 2 channel.

It replaced a CSi3 which was decent, but bright, way forward, tinny in comparison. I'm sure a CSi5 would have been better, but the CSxxi tweeter is easier on the ear.

[kawizx9r]

I think that's a pretty accurate assessment. When I plugged mine in, I wasn't blown away either. However, dialog is centered, the voices articulate, it's uncolored, it keeps up with the mains (which can get fairly lively) and is a close match. For movies, it does everything it's supposed to. For music, it can give you a surprising amount of bass when run large with plenty of power. It is a tad forward of the SDA soundstage, but again it blends well with them in multi-channel mixes. It's certainly not a turn off or distracting. Never use it for 2 channel.

It replaced a CSi3 which was decent, but bright, way forward, tinny in comparison. I'm sure a CSi5 would have been better, but the CSxxi tweeter is easier on the ear.

+1
Imo the RT series tweeters are an amazing tweeter to be heard for HT the way RD0's are for music.

[maandjojo]

Big 10/4 on that Ron. I will try what you said when listening to music concerts, but no never on 2 channel. No sense in messing with perfection.

Joe

[OldmanSRS]

Personally, I hear no benefit using surround for music. Movies, maybe, but not music. The soundstage is so seamless, wide and deep in 2CH and for me anyway, surround mode decrease the width and moves that information to the rear.

[maandjojo]

Stupid me, still not being overwhelmed I checked the back of the speaker to make sure it was jumpered, and low and beholed it was not. Jumpered them and wow! Now I can see why the need for the center. Very good match, not perfect but very good but it makes a big difference in the vocal clarity. Mid range and lows are a perfect match.
BB this is the one.

Joe

[Ron Temple]

Stupid me, still not being overwhelmed I checked the back of the speaker to make sure it was jumpered, and low and beholed it was not. Jumpered them and wow! Now I can see why the need for the center. Very good match, not perfect but very good but it makes a big difference in the vocal clarity. Mid range and lows are a perfect match.
BB this is the one.

JoeNot overwhelmed...I'd think you would have been majorly disappointed :p:D. When I picked mine up from Skynut (where has he gone?), it wasn't jumpered either. I just cut some wire, jumped them and away we went.