Pioneer SC line versus VSX line for a/v?

[digitalvideo]

What are the differences between Pioneer's SC-05/07/09 line of recievers and their VSX line when it comes to quality for audio and sound?

[mantis]

The SC line has Digital amps which in my opinion sound more clean and are way more dynamic. The VSX line has a very good sound and nice dynamic range, more so then a lot other receivers in there respected price classes.

[nguyendot]

I believe the SC line is also going to be the Elite series and the VSX is their mainstream series. This usually means more inputs and ouputs, beefier power supplies, and generally a better build quality.

[Knucklehead]

Eventually i will get an SC AVR my VSX816 has worked very nicely so far.

[digitalvideo]

I currently have a Pioneer SC-05 and I want to put that in my basement tv room and buy an SC-07 for my main tv room but are there better recievers out there in it's class for picture quality and audio quality? I've been looking around the internet on different forums and I've read people say the VSX-94TXH seems to be a better overall receiver and the Denon too.

[digitalvideo]

Also, I'm thinking of buying a reciever this time than can upconvert signals to 1080p for tv watching. For movie watching (dvd/bluray) the 1080p HDMI signal passes through the Pioneer reciever and I let my Oppo bp player do the HDMI processing but there is no upconversion from my Pioneer while watching regular tv. I do own a Pioneer Elite Kuro Pro-111fd but will that tv upconvert all signals from either Comcast cable or satellite tv?

Those of us with satellite service need either a AVR with good scaling or an external VP. Both Dish Network and Direct have horrible SD quality. Multichannel set top boxes (cable, sat, IPTV) are the world's worst upscalers. The Reon, Marvell and Anchor Bay chipsets can do wonders with less than perfect SD. The Faroudja chipsets? I'm not too impressed with the variants I've tried.

From what I've read of all the reviews and tests the Denon 5308 and 5805 a/v reciever seems like a really good reciever for what I'm looking for and do upscaling that the Pioneer doesn't do, what do you guys think?

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/avreceivers/708denon5308/

[Falcon01]

If you are looking at buying a Pioneer receiver and you're entertaining the thought of a VSX-01 I would REALLY try and audition it first. I have one and I'm not happy with the sound at all. Dynamics are definitely what I thought they would be and I'm definitely missing details in the sound. When I test out my systems I play 4 or 5 movies that I know the sound of very well and I'm not hearing things as cleanly and detailed as I used to. It just sounds flat and boring. I calibrated my system THREE times, moved the speakers in several different positions, did the "toe-in" thing, etc. Still not happy.

I'm so disappointed that I ended up buying a 5 channel amplifier which is 200 watts per channel (should arrive this Wednesday) to see if it's the amplification that's causing the loss in details and dynamics. If that doesn't give me the sound I want then I will sell the Elite VSX-01 immediately and either get a Marantz receiver or get a pre/pro instead.

Either way good luck in your search but be careful of the hype.

Disclaimer: I hear the SC series Pioneer receiver with the ICE amps sound better but I've never heard one so I can't say. Then again I also heard the VSX-01 would give me good sound but ummmm ya not in my case.

[Sherardp]

Those of us with satellite service need either a AVR with good scaling or an external VP. Both Dish Network and Direct have horrible SD quality. Multichannel set top boxes (cable, sat, IPTV) are the world's worst upscalers. The Reon, Marvell and Anchor Bay chipsets can do wonders with less than perfect SD. The Faroudja chipsets? I'm not too impressed with the variants I've tried.

From what I've read of all the reviews and tests the Denon 5308 and 5805 a/v reciever seems like a really good reciever for what I'm looking for and do upscaling that the Pioneer doesn't do, what do you guys think?

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/avreceivers/708denon5308/


I would suggest you buy a SC-07 and pair it up with a DVDO Edge if you need the video processing.

[Falcon01]

By the way, Denon and Marantz are the same company. I've heard a Denon 889 and it sounded very good. Much better than my setup but he had B&W 602S3's hooked up to it and you also have consider room accoustics.

[digitalvideo]

I would suggest you buy a SC-07 and pair it up with a DVDO Edge if you need the video processing.

How would I go about hooking that up together to work in unison?

[Sherardp]

How would I go about hooking that up together to work in unison?

The DVDO Edge has dual HDMI outs to include one for audio. So they allow the audio out of the Edge to the input of the AVR. Your HDMI out for video out of the Edge to your display. The Edge has been getting excellent reviews if you need the video processing as I mentioned and it won't break the bank should you decide to purchase one.

[xcapri79]

Don't forget that owning the SC line let's you join the ICE club!
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80620&highlight=ice+club

[digitalvideo]

The DVDO Edge has dual HDMI outs to include one for audio. So they allow the audio out of the Edge to the input of the AVR. Your HDMI out for video out of the Edge to your display. The Edge has been getting excellent reviews if you need the video processing as I mentioned and it won't break the bank should you decide to purchase one.

Thanks for the info, does the DVDO Edge upconvert signals to 1080p for tv viewing?

Also, does it affect the HDMI signal from the Oppo bd player to the tv? The Pioneer SC05/07/09 pass through the HDMI signal without the Edge, so I have the Oppo set to 1080p and want the Oppo to control the HDMI signal for movie watching to the tv.

[digitalvideo]

Also, does the Edge affect the audio of the Pioneer reciever when watching tv and movies? I use the Pioneer reciever for the audio to drive the speakers and let it decode all the latest from Dolby True HD and DTS, so will the Edge make tv or movie watching sound "different"?

[digitalvideo]

I contacted DVDO Edge, I asked them the same questions above and they replied back with:

"If you set the Blu-ray player to 1080p60 and the EDGE output 1080p60 then EDGE will not scale the signal. Make sure the recevier can pass the signal through without any processing. This way all non-1080p60 that goes into EDGE will be upscaled to 1080p60.
Let me know if you have further quesitons.

Regards,"

Ken Nguyen
Technical Support
Phone (408) 429-6326
Fax (408) 429-6297
ken@anchorbaytech.com


Now what if I want to watch a bluray movie in 1080p/24fps and let the Oppo send it that way?

[Sherardp]

The Edge will allow you to do 1080/24 as well.

[mantis]

If you are looking at buying a Pioneer receiver and you're entertaining the thought of a VSX-01 I would REALLY try and audition it first. I have one and I'm not happy with the sound at all. Dynamics are definitely what I thought they would be and I'm definitely missing details in the sound. When I test out my systems I play 4 or 5 movies that I know the sound of very well and I'm not hearing things as cleanly and detailed as I used to. It just sounds flat and boring. I calibrated my system THREE times, moved the speakers in several different positions, did the "toe-in" thing, etc. Still not happy.

I'm so disappointed that I ended up buying a 5 channel amplifier which is 200 watts per channel (should arrive this Wednesday) to see if it's the amplification that's causing the loss in details and dynamics. If that doesn't give me the sound I want then I will sell the Elite VSX-01 immediately and either get a Marantz receiver or get a pre/pro instead.

Either way good luck in your search but be careful of the hype.

Disclaimer: I hear the SC series Pioneer receiver with the ICE amps sound better but I've never heard one so I can't say. Then again I also heard the VSX-01 would give me good sound but ummmm ya not in my case.
First off nice system you got there. I got a few questions on your comments on the vsx01.

1) What did you have before the 01 that you think sounded better?
2) You state the Dynamics are what you expect but what does that mean? Is it dynamic or not?
3) You say your missing details in your sound quality, I'm curious what you are missing?
4) Are the Paradigms a new addition to your system or where they used on your last system that sounded better?

I ask these question to figure out what you are talking about. The vsx01 is a fantastic receiver and I have yet to feel the same way about it as you do. Setup MCACC , correct speaker placement , the room all play a huge part in your overall sound quality. I also suspect if your looking for detail , you might have the wrong speakers. The Monitor series from Paradigm is a nice line but not the most detailed line out there. There Studio line and even the Cinema line seems to have better details. I don't get it as most of Paradigm floor standing speakers seem to lack something here and there. There book shelf speakers, on wall , in wall , in ceiling speakers are fantastic.

So adding a amp to your system I don't think will give you what you are looking for. If we can isolate the problem , maybe we can fix it and get you happy. I don't think it's the Elite receiver unless you have a incredibly large room.
You sub is also in suspect. Paradigm subs start to get good at the Ultra series and up. everything under that is more like a 1 hit wonder. They make bass but it's not tuned bass. It can cloud the system and do exactly what your system is doing. It's so important to have a sub match and react as fast as the system speakers. The Ultracub 10 is a good entry example of this. The Seismic 10 or 12 is a great musical as well as theater sub. Then there is the mighty Servo 15 which doesn't work in all rooms but when placed correctly and setup, it's a killer badass double duty sub.

Start a new thread if you wish and we can go over your system step by step and figure out your lack of detail.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

Dan, what are your thoughts on the SC-05 powering 4 LSi7 and an LSiC? I'm in an apartment, so don't need this at reference level or anything. By the time we're ready for another house I'll have an amp to drive those speakers anyway.

But for now, how well would it power that setup? I'm also concerned about 2 channel music listening, is this receiver well suited for that or will I be making a compromise in that department?

[renowilliams]

I have an older avr in the VSX line and I have found it to be a very dynamic reciever with wonderful sound. Its hard for me to imagine that the new VSX reciever would be a great departure in its sound. I would take Mantis up on his offer,it sounds to me that something is not set up right on your system.

[olilugo]

Here is my two cents I happen to own the vsx-1018 which is equivalent to the vsx-01 the only difference is that the 1018 does not have s-video and the 01 does.
I also have the SC-07. I compared the sc-07 with the Vsx-1018 and the sound of the sc-07 is just much better, It is more open, there is more dimention. That is not to say that the 1018 is that bad, it is that the sc-07 is better at what it does.
It also costs 3 times as much so keep that in mind.

The sc-07 has a better DAC, it does have the ICE amps but I use an external amp and It never tested it without the external amp.
I can tell you that I am very satisfied with my SC-07 to the point that receiver is not in my to do to see if I can improve.

Another note is that the SC-07 will not upscale HDMI so if you are getting 1080p from your Blue Ray then that is excatly was will pass from the receiver to the TV regarless of 24p or 60p.

I can also tell you the best upgrade to my system so far was moving from my RTi6 to the B&W 804s.
The sound just changed and I am not looking back.

[digitalvideo]

The Edge will allow you to do 1080/24 as well.

Can I shut off the EDGE when I want to watch dvd's and blurays through the Oppo through the Pioneer reciever to the tv and when I'm done just turn the Edge back on to watch regular tv or do I need to unplug wires and connect wires back directly to the Oppo or reciever, meaning is the Edge user friendly and simple with just one On/Off button?

[digitalvideo]

I can also tell you the best upgrade to my system so far was moving from my RTi6 to the B&W 804s.
The sound just changed and I am not looking back.

How does the B&W 804's compare to the Polk RTi A9's for sound quality for HT dvd/bluray and tv-sports?

[kevhed72]

Also, I'm thinking of buying a reciever this time than can upconvert signals to 1080p for tv watching. ]

What type of TV signal would you be upconverting...SD or HD?

[vijayl]

Setup MCACC , correct speaker placement , the room all play a huge part in your overall sound quality.

Agree with Dan's suggestion. MACC does wonders.. I hav found running MACC after a simple change to ur setup will hav a major impact..

I wud suggest u run MACC before adding ur amp and after adding ur amp to experience the difference

[digitalvideo]

What type of TV signal would you be upconverting...SD or HD?

Both, some channels I get in SD and some I get in HD through my package.

[olilugo]

How does the B&W 804's compare to the Polk RTi A9's for sound quality for HT dvd/bluray and tv-sports?

I am sorry I didn't look at none of the RTi or LSi lines, besides what you see on my signature.

I did see a big improvements going from csi3 to the csi5 but that was back when I was putting my all polk HT system up.

I hear that the RTi A9 is a very good speaker, but I had my mind set on B&W and you know how it goes. I am happy enough that I don't really care if the RTi9 was twice as good. I love the sound and look of my B&W. I am hoping I save enough to get the center channel but this is going to take a while.

[olilugo]

Both, some channels I get in SD and some I get in HD through my package.

Keep in mind according to the SC-07 manual the SC-07 will not upconvert from 1080i to 1080p, it will also not upconvert from hdmi.

it just passes the signal untouch to the TV.

[Sherardp]

Can I shut off the EDGE when I want to watch dvd's and blurays through the Oppo through the Pioneer reciever to the tv and when I'm done just turn the Edge back on to watch regular tv or do I need to unplug wires and connect wires back directly to the Oppo or reciever, meaning is the Edge user friendly and simple with just one On/Off button?

Your sources will be plugged into the VP which in turn will act as a switch so it will have to be on., unless you decide to connect the Oppo directly to your AVR. So you could go cable box, or whatever you want upconverted to the Edge, Edge into display and AVR for audio, simple. You win both ways.

[mantis]

Dan, what are your thoughts on the SC-05 powering 4 LSi7 and an LSiC? I'm in an apartment, so don't need this at reference level or anything. By the time we're ready for another house I'll have an amp to drive those speakers anyway.

But for now, how well would it power that setup? I'm also concerned about 2 channel music listening, is this receiver well suited for that or will I be making a compromise in that department?

Perfectly fine, set everything to small at 80hz and rock on. Do you have a good sub?

[Falcon01]

First off nice system you got there. I got a few questions on your comments on the vsx01.

1) What did you have before the 01 that you think sounded better?
2) You state the Dynamics are what you expect but what does that mean? Is it dynamic or not?
3) You say your missing details in your sound quality, I'm curious what you are missing?
4) Are the Paradigms a new addition to your system or where they used on your last system that sounded better?

I ask these question to figure out what you are talking about. The vsx01 is a fantastic receiver and I have yet to feel the same way about it as you do. Setup MCACC , correct speaker placement , the room all play a huge part in your overall sound quality. I also suspect if your looking for detail , you might have the wrong speakers. The Monitor series from Paradigm is a nice line but not the most detailed line out there. There Studio line and even the Cinema line seems to have better details. I don't get it as most of Paradigm floor standing speakers seem to lack something here and there. There book shelf speakers, on wall , in wall , in ceiling speakers are fantastic.

So adding a amp to your system I don't think will give you what you are looking for. If we can isolate the problem , maybe we can fix it and get you happy. I don't think it's the Elite receiver unless you have a incredibly large room.
You sub is also in suspect. Paradigm subs start to get good at the Ultra series and up. everything under that is more like a 1 hit wonder. They make bass but it's not tuned bass. It can cloud the system and do exactly what your system is doing. It's so important to have a sub match and react as fast as the system speakers. The Ultracub 10 is a good entry example of this. The Seismic 10 or 12 is a great musical as well as theater sub. Then there is the mighty Servo 15 which doesn't work in all rooms but when placed correctly and setup, it's a killer badass double duty sub.

Start a new thread if you wish and we can go over your system step by step and figure out your lack of detail.

Where do I even start. My sub is suspect?? Have you read the reviews on the sub? It's one of the better subs on the market and you think it's suspect? It has 400 watts RMS, with a class D amp and I would NOT trade it for any other sub unless it was the Servo 15 but that would be overkill in my place. I had a Velodyne 12" DPS 12 sub up until a couple of months ago but I didn't like the sound I was getting from it at all. Not tight and it was boomy. Tried many different things to get the sub sounding better but nothing helped, not room position, not the MCACC, I even tried playing with the Phase, nothing helped. The 10" PW2100 smokes it, seriously it's not even close. Read the reviews if you don't believe me.

I'll get to your questions.

1) Believe it or not I had a Yamaha 5740 before the Pioneer and it sounded better, no question. Only problem was that it did not have the TrueHD and DTS HD decoders, and the amplification was weak in the surrounds. Still it was clean when it wasn't cranked and I heard a lot more things in the same movies I am playing now. It almost sounds like it's in mono compared to the Yamaha amp. Now I realize that people say the Yamahas are "bright" but I definitely enjoyed the details, it's as if I was hearing every bit of information available in the audio. The sound was clean and not too bright in my opinion. Dynamics on the Pioneer...well it sounds flat. I even talked to the guy at my local audio store where I buy most of my equipment (I highly respected audio store in Toronto by the way) and he tells me that some of his customers actually prefer the sound with the EQ off on the Pioneer Elites. I tried it and it did improve a little, but the audio is still flat and boring, especially when listening to the HD audio tracks in movies, it should be phenominal but it's not. In my original post I meant to say the dynamics are NOT what I expected. That was a typo on my part.

As far as the Paradigms, I've had them for roughly 6 yrs and enjoy them thoroughly. I friend of mine has the same setup with the Yamaha 6290 and it sounds fantastic.I also heard my paradigms at someone elses house with a Denon 889 receiver (if memory serves) and it absolutely smoked the sound I'm getting from my Pioneer. Seriously, it was in another league altogether. Truth be told I'm very picky when it comes to sound and picture quality. I notice things in both that others don't and I have not been happy with my Pioneer "Elite" since day one but I have given it every opportunity to prove me wrong by playing and adjusting things for a few months now. I'm not even close to happy.

I'm going to see how the amp helps the sound if at all. If I'm not pleased, the Pioneer and the amp are both going and I'm getting a Marantz and be done with it. The only reason I got the Pioneer over the Marantz was because of my plasma which is a Pioneer but I should have went with experience (I've heard Marantz equipment in the past and was pleased with the sound. Clean and detailed as I like).

Mantis, no offense intended but you seem almost blinded to Pioneer receivers for some reason. There are certainly better receivers in the same price ranges out there but I understand people prefer different things so to each their own.

[vijayl]

Mantis, no offense intended but you seem almost blinded to Pioneer receivers for some reason.
LOL..
from my observation here, Dan is very open minded :)

[mantis]

Where do I even start. My sub is suspect?? Have you read the reviews on the sub? It's one of the better subs on the market and you think it's suspect? It has 400 watts RMS, with a class D amp and I would NOT trade it for any other sub unless it was the Servo 15 but that would be overkill in my place. I had a Velodyne 12" DPS 12 sub up until a couple of months ago but I didn't like the sound I was getting from it at all. Not tight and it was boomy. Tried many different things to get the sub sounding better but nothing helped, not room position, not the MCACC, I even tried playing with the Phase, nothing helped. The 10" PW2100 smokes it, seriously it's not even close. Read the reviews if you don't believe me.

I'll get to your questions.

1) Believe it or not I had a Yamaha 5740 before the Pioneer and it sounded better, no question. Only problem was that it did not have the TrueHD and DTS HD decoders, and the amplification was weak in the surrounds. Still it was clean when it wasn't cranked and I heard a lot more things in the same movies I am playing now. It almost sounds like it's in mono compared to the Yamaha amp. Now I realize that people say the Yamahas are "bright" but I definitely enjoyed the details, it's as if I was hearing every bit of information available in the audio. The sound was clean and not too bright in my opinion. Dynamics on the Pioneer...well it sounds flat. I even talked to the guy at my local audio store where I buy most of my equipment (I highly respected audio store in Toronto by the way) and he tells me that some of his customers actually prefer the sound with the EQ off on the Pioneer Elites. I tried it and it did improve a little, but the audio is still flat and boring, especially when listening to the HD audio tracks in movies, it should be phenominal but it's not. In my original post I meant to say the dynamics are NOT what I expected. That was a typo on my part.

As far as the Paradigms, I've had them for roughly 6 yrs and enjoy them thoroughly. I friend of mine has the same setup with the Yamaha 6290 and it sounds fantastic.I also heard my paradigms at someone elses house with a Denon 889 receiver (if memory serves) and it absolutely smoked the sound I'm getting from my Pioneer. Seriously, it was in another league altogether. Truth be told I'm very picky when it comes to sound and picture quality. I notice things in both that others don't and I have not been happy with my Pioneer "Elite" since day one but I have given it every opportunity to prove me wrong by playing and adjusting things for a few months now. I'm not even close to happy.

I'm going to see how the amp helps the sound if at all. If I'm not pleased, the Pioneer and the amp are both going and I'm getting a Marantz and be done with it. The only reason I got the Pioneer over the Marantz was because of my plasma which is a Pioneer but I should have went with experience (I've heard Marantz equipment in the past and was pleased with the sound. Clean and detailed as I like).

Mantis, no offense intended but you seem almost blinded to Pioneer receivers for some reason. There are certainly better receivers in the same price ranges out there but I understand people prefer different things so to each their own.
After reading your post , it sounds to me like you prefer the sound of Yamaha. Ok thats fine then shy not go after a new Yamaha? isn't there a rxz11 for sale in the flea market? You should check that out, it's a beast.
Yamaha vs Pioneer for sound quality are very different. The comments you heard about Yamaha are pretty on par. Yamaha receivers are very forward and bright to many people especially if you listen to a Denon or Pioneer or even in your case a Marantz. Marantz is almost Identical to Pioneer Elite in sound quality. Denon has a similar sound quality but lacks the punch of dynamics that the Pioneer and Marantz's have.
I'm far from blinded from Pioneer. I'm a Professional Installer and get to hear everything under the sun not to mention we as a company carry just about everything. I have a very open mind and if I hear something I like or notice it works in many different room with many different speakers, I like to talk about it hence the Pioneer ELite receivers.
Paradigm subs are good. Your comments about your system made me think your sub was clouding or mudding up your overall sound quality. You could have the phase simply set wrong and it will do that. I Install paradigm all the time and think that all there subs under the Ultracubes are not musical and are 1 hit wonders. Sorry dude thats my professional and personal opinion. Everyone I work with shares this same opinion. We are a audiophile company and are extremely picky with our gear. Nothing wrong with the lower end Paradigm subs actually many really like them for theater, they do that role very well. Lots of output lots of bank for the buck but if you wanna sit down and listen to a piece of music, your comments on your current system are my opinion listening to music with the lower end Paradigm subs.
You can go get a amp for your system, I don't think it's going to help. I really think you should move the Pioneer and get another Yamaha. I bet you'd be happy again with your system.
Good luck.

[digitalvideo]

Where do I even start. My sub is suspect?? Have you read the reviews on the sub? It's one of the better subs on the market and you think it's suspect? It has 400 watts RMS, with a class D amp and I would NOT trade it for any other sub unless it was the Servo 15 but that would be overkill in my place. I had a Velodyne 12" DPS 12 sub up until a couple of months ago but I didn't like the sound I was getting from it at all. Not tight and it was boomy. Tried many different things to get the sub sounding better but nothing helped, not room position, not the MCACC, I even tried playing with the Phase, nothing helped. The 10" PW2100 smokes it, seriously it's not even close. Read the reviews if you don't believe me.

I'll get to your questions.

1) Believe it or not I had a Yamaha 5740 before the Pioneer and it sounded better, no question. Only problem was that it did not have the TrueHD and DTS HD decoders, and the amplification was weak in the surrounds. Still it was clean when it wasn't cranked and I heard a lot more things in the same movies I am playing now. It almost sounds like it's in mono compared to the Yamaha amp. Now I realize that people say the Yamahas are "bright" but I definitely enjoyed the details, it's as if I was hearing every bit of information available in the audio. The sound was clean and not too bright in my opinion. Dynamics on the Pioneer...well it sounds flat. I even talked to the guy at my local audio store where I buy most of my equipment (I highly respected audio store in Toronto by the way) and he tells me that some of his customers actually prefer the sound with the EQ off on the Pioneer Elites. I tried it and it did improve a little, but the audio is still flat and boring, especially when listening to the HD audio tracks in movies, it should be phenominal but it's not. In my original post I meant to say the dynamics are NOT what I expected. That was a typo on my part.

As far as the Paradigms, I've had them for roughly 6 yrs and enjoy them thoroughly. I friend of mine has the same setup with the Yamaha 6290 and it sounds fantastic.I also heard my paradigms at someone elses house with a Denon 889 receiver (if memory serves) and it absolutely smoked the sound I'm getting from my Pioneer. Seriously, it was in another league altogether. Truth be told I'm very picky when it comes to sound and picture quality. I notice things in both that others don't and I have not been happy with my Pioneer "Elite" since day one but I have given it every opportunity to prove me wrong by playing and adjusting things for a few months now. I'm not even close to happy.

I'm going to see how the amp helps the sound if at all. If I'm not pleased, the Pioneer and the amp are both going and I'm getting a Marantz and be done with it. The only reason I got the Pioneer over the Marantz was because of my plasma which is a Pioneer but I should have went with experience (I've heard Marantz equipment in the past and was pleased with the sound. Clean and detailed as I like).

Mantis, no offense intended but you seem almost blinded to Pioneer receivers for some reason. There are certainly better receivers in the same price ranges out there but I understand people prefer different things so to each their own.

You should compare the Pioneer SC line to a Denon/Marantz in it's class.

Everything I read and hear is the Pioneer SC line is better for sound and Denon is better for video quality.

[Falcon01]

Mantis, you may be confusing the PDR series woofers with the PW series which is a much better sub. It is discontinued now but it was one of their high end subs when they were making it. They eventually upgraded the ultra class D amp to 500 watts RMS and was one of the best rated subs on the market. I can honestly say that there are very few 10" subs that can beat the PW2100 for accuracy, tightness and impact that it has and the ones that can beat it cost MUCH more money.

If you want a musical receiver than definitely go with a Marantz, no question. I like to have the best of both worlds but like I said I'm really missing out on things with the Pioneer VSX-01. I realize it could be my room and other things but the Yamaha didn't sound like this at all and it was in the same room, same speakers, wires, etc. Like I mentioned before, the only way I can explain it is as if I'm hearing it in mono, although it is nowhere near THAT bad.

I'm used to a big open sound field that really does surround you. With the Pioneer it's more like a flat sound that just comes directly at you. This is just my experience and I don't expect everyone to hear the same type of sound with their VSX-01's. I know the higher end SC line gets great reviews but they are out of my price range for an AVR. I would rather go seperates and then when technology advances (like with the upcoming HDMI 1.4) I can just upgrade the pre/pro. I realize we all have different needs and situations but in my experience the Pioneer isn't what I was hoping for.

[Falcon01]

I can't edit my last post so I just have to make another one. Looks like I'm getting a great deal on a barely used Marantz 6003 so I'll let you guys know how much (or little) of a difference I hear in the system. I should have it hooked up by the weekend.

[mantis]

I can't edit my last post so I just have to make another one. Looks like I'm getting a great deal on a barely used Marantz 6003 so I'll let you guys know how much (or little) of a difference I hear in the system. I should have it hooked up by the weekend.

Cool looking forward to your impressions.

[Montoya]

Did you just run the basic mcacc or did you do the pro setup and adjust the reverb setting and do the pro eq setup? Correct calibration makes a world of differance. If you need further details let me know if you want to give it one more shot I can post instructions for best calib. setup.

I can't edit my last post so I just have to make another one. Looks like I'm getting a great deal on a barely used Marantz 6003 so I'll let you guys know how much (or little) of a difference I hear in the system. I should have it hooked up by the weekend.

[digitalvideo]

I'm used to a big open sound field that really does surround you. With the Pioneer it's more like a flat sound that just comes directly at you. This is just my experience and I don't expect everyone to hear the same type of sound with their VSX-01's. I know the higher end SC line gets great reviews but they are out of my price range for an AVR. I would rather go seperates and then when technology advances (like with the upcoming HDMI 1.4) I can just upgrade the pre/pro. I realize we all have different needs and situations but in my experience the Pioneer isn't what I was hoping for.

You can find the Pioneer SC-05 on Ebay, Audiogon, Craigslist and other places as low as $599.

[Pedler]

Where do I even start. My sub is suspect?? Have you read the reviews on the sub? It's one of the better subs on the market and you think it's suspect? It has 400 watts RMS, with a class D amp and I would NOT trade it for any other sub unless it was the Servo 15 but that would be overkill in my place. I had a Velodyne 12" DPS 12 sub up until a couple of months ago but I didn't like the sound I was getting from it at all. Not tight and it was boomy. Tried many different things to get the sub sounding better but nothing helped, not room position, not the MCACC, I even tried playing with the Phase, nothing helped. The 10" PW2100 smokes it, seriously it's not even close. Read the reviews if you don't believe me.

I'll get to your questions.

1) Believe it or not I had a Yamaha 5740 before the Pioneer and it sounded better, no question. Only problem was that it did not have the TrueHD and DTS HD decoders, and the amplification was weak in the surrounds. Still it was clean when it wasn't cranked and I heard a lot more things in the same movies I am playing now. It almost sounds like it's in mono compared to the Yamaha amp. Now I realize that people say the Yamahas are "bright" but I definitely enjoyed the details, it's as if I was hearing every bit of information available in the audio. The sound was clean and not too bright in my opinion. Dynamics on the Pioneer...well it sounds flat. I even talked to the guy at my local audio store where I buy most of my equipment (I highly respected audio store in Toronto by the way) and he tells me that some of his customers actually prefer the sound with the EQ off on the Pioneer Elites. I tried it and it did improve a little, but the audio is still flat and boring, especially when listening to the HD audio tracks in movies, it should be phenominal but it's not. In my original post I meant to say the dynamics are NOT what I expected. That was a typo on my part.

As far as the Paradigms, I've had them for roughly 6 yrs and enjoy them thoroughly. I friend of mine has the same setup with the Yamaha 6290 and it sounds fantastic.I also heard my paradigms at someone elses house with a Denon 889 receiver (if memory serves) and it absolutely smoked the sound I'm getting from my Pioneer. Seriously, it was in another league altogether. Truth be told I'm very picky when it comes to sound and picture quality. I notice things in both that others don't and I have not been happy with my Pioneer "Elite" since day one but I have given it every opportunity to prove me wrong by playing and adjusting things for a few months now. I'm not even close to happy.

I'm going to see how the amp helps the sound if at all. If I'm not pleased, the Pioneer and the amp are both going and I'm getting a Marantz and be done with it. The only reason I got the Pioneer over the Marantz was because of my plasma which is a Pioneer but I should have went with experience (I've heard Marantz equipment in the past and was pleased with the sound. Clean and detailed as I like).

Mantis, no offense intended but you seem almost blinded to Pioneer receivers for some reason. There are certainly better receivers in the same price ranges out there but I understand people prefer different things so to each their own.



Having read your post. I would like to ask if you went in and adjusted the fine levels in the Pioneer. You may have some of the channels bleeding into the others. eg. center audio in the left channel and the back surrounds in the fronts.
seeing how you have nothing to loose can you try this for me.

go into fine levels and select the reference distance for the left speaker and listen by ear and adjust the clicking sound to get the speakers to sound were they should be in the room. the same goes for the subwoofer. note: don't worry so much about the numbers.

It will help with the dynamics also. ( I eventually sold my sc-07 ). Each Receiver has it's good and it's bad. but for me it had some issues I could not live with. I could go into detail but... EH.. ( 9 band eq and I can't hear music while you adjust it till i get out of the menu. ) What were you thinking Pioneer.

[digitalvideo]

It will help with the dynamics also. ( I eventually sold my sc-07 ). Each Receiver has it's good and it's bad. but for me it had some issues I could not live with. I could go into detail but... EH.. ( 9 band eq and I can't hear music while you adjust it till i get out of the menu. ) What were you thinking Pioneer.

What other specific issues or problems did you have with your SC-07 if you don't mind posting them? I have the SC-05 and it's been fine but I'm not an audiophile so I don't have that expert ear. I use my 7.1 HT for tv/sports, dvd/bluray movies over 90% of the time, it's built for HT. I believe the Pioneer SC line is better for sound for movies and tv while the Denon is better for video/visual upconverting and Marantz is better for music. I use my Pioneer to drive my speakers and my Oppo for digital upscaling of movies so I'm still saving thousands of dollars that way instead of buying the Denon 5308. If you want the best reciever out there for movies now I would look into the Denon 5308, but it's expensive.

[Falcon01]

Having read your post. I would like to ask if you went in and adjusted the fine levels in the Pioneer. You may have some of the channels bleeding into the others. eg. center audio in the left channel and the back surrounds in the fronts.
seeing how you have nothing to loose can you try this for me.

go into fine levels and select the reference distance for the left speaker and listen by ear and adjust the clicking sound to get the speakers to sound were they should be in the room. the same goes for the subwoofer. note: don't worry so much about the numbers.

It will help with the dynamics also. ( I eventually sold my sc-07 ). Each Receiver has it's good and it's bad. but for me it had some issues I could not live with. I could go into detail but... EH.. ( 9 band eq and I can't hear music while you adjust it till i get out of the menu. ) What were you thinking Pioneer.

Hmmmm I didn't know you could do that. I'll check the manual tomorrow to see how to get into the Fine Levels menu. That sounds promising. I got the XPA-5 but I won't hook it up for a couple of days until I get the cables. Then when I hook it up I will have to do the MCACC all over again. Sheesh.

Then I'll have to try all of this with the Marantz 6003. I don't find the audio calibration part fun, especially when it doesn't sound right afterwards and you have to do it all over again and keep trying different things. Hopefully though things will be different this time. :)

Thanks for the suggestion!

Montoya, I'm pretty sure I did the pro setup as I printed out a set of instructions from AVS (I think?) which showed how to analyze the graphs and all kinds of other things. It should not be this complicated though. People should just be able to hook up their stuff and let her rip. I realize that room accoustics, equipment, speakers, wires, furniture, etc play a big part in sound so that's why the calibration is needed. I just wish it was easier.