Vibration elimination - It works

[BlueFox]

While I do not have any problem with believing that speaker wire can make a difference in sound, and I have heard the improvement from upgrading my wire, I have had a hard time accepting the idea that reducing/eliminating vibrations from electronic equipment can make a difference.

Well, it can!!!

In my quest to help the economy I broke down and ordered 2 sets of Triple Points, and 1 set of Micro Point, brass footers from Mapleshade. So far, everything I have bought from them has resulted in an improvement, so I thought I would give the vibration control a try.

I isolated the CDP, DAC, and pre-amp, turned everything on, and was amazed at the improvement. The sound is so much clearer, articulate, and precise from both the CDP and the iPod/Wadia. They say vibration muddies the sound, and that is a good description. I am really impressed at the improvement from this tweak. Now I have to decide if it is worthwhile to add them to the amps.

The only drawback is now I have to buy some Brasso.

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/heavyfoot_triplepoint_hub.php

[NJPOLKER]

Looks great and whats even better is that the sound is now sweeter.

[dorokusai]

Yep, been doing the isolation thing since 2003.

[Ern Dog]

Glad to hear these worked so well. I checked the price and these are spendy! One set costs more than my speaker cables!

[ken.paduch]

Why wouldn't the wood in the shelves be sufficient to reduce vibration? there is plenty of it. Also, it you wanted to reduce vibration wouldn't a rubber type compund work better than brass?

[BlueFox]

Why wouldn't the wood in the shelves be sufficient to reduce vibration? there is plenty of it. Also, it you wanted to reduce vibration wouldn't a rubber type compund work better than brass?

You can feel the vibrations in the cabinet. As to whether something is better than brass I do not know. I know Mapleshade loves brass, and they say it works best. You are not far from Mapleshade. Why not drive over there and see what you can find out.

[F1nut]

Brass, rubber, Dynamat, air suspension, etc........it matters not as it all helps obtain the goal, isolation.

[ken.paduch]

You can feel the vibrations in the cabinet. As to whether something is better than brass I do not know. I know Mapleshade loves brass, and they say it works best. You are not far from Mapleshade. Why not drive over there and see what you can find out.

Good point. Have you used any other products form them?

[BlueFox]

Good point. Have you used any other products form them?


Speaker wire, analog and digital ICs, maple speaker platforms, CD/DVD cleaner and polish. So far, every item has had a positive improvement. Of course, since I was going from 12 guage hardware store stranded copper, and inexpensive ICs probably any body's cables would have been an improvement. However, I like their non-traditional approach to cable design.

The vibration treatment works so well I am going to order Isoblocks for the amps, and a set of Micro Triplepoints for the power conditioner, and I am seriously considering buying the Samson v3 four shelf equipment rack for further vibration isolation.

[reeltrouble1]

The Samson is nice, I would also recommend you look at the Adona and Billy Bags products rack products.

Anyway, the rack is looking good.

RT1

[xj4094dg]

Speaker wire, analog and digital ICs, maple speaker platforms, CD/DVD cleaner and polish. So far, every item has had a positive improvement. Of course, since I was going from 12 guage hardware store stranded copper, and inexpensive ICs probably any body's cables would have been an improvement. However, I like their non-traditional approach to cable design.

The vibration treatment works so well I am going to order Isoblocks for the amps, and a set of Micro Triplepoints for the power conditioner, and I am seriously considering buying the Samson v3 four shelf equipment rack for further vibration isolation.

I see the potential for vibration affecting a turntable or a CD/DVD unit, how does vibration affect a unit without moving parts such as an amp or pre-amp?

[BlueFox]

I see the potential for vibration affecting a turntable or a CD/DVD unit, how does vibration affect a unit without moving parts such as an amp or pre-amp?


That was my initial skepticism noted in the first post. I do not know how it works, but I now know that it does work. While I thought the system sounded pretty good, adding the brass footers took it to another level. It is that apparent, and is especially noticiable at higher listening levels.

[xj4094dg]

That was my initial skepticism noted in the first post. I do not know how it works, but I now know that it does work. While I thought the system sounded pretty good, adding the brass footers took it to another level. It is that apparent, and is especially noticiable at higher listening levels.

I understand you believe it works. I am interested to know if anyone can explain how removing vibration from an item that has no moving parts makes it sound better, other than say placebo or suggestion or.

[reeltrouble1]

its been awhile since a reporting .....................anti hi-fi audio insurgent sighting

RT1

[madmax]

I understand you believe it works. I am interested to know if anyone can explain how removing vibration from an item that has no moving parts makes it sound better, other than say placebo or suggestion or.


There are all sorts of moving parts in electronics. Transformers and other windings, capacitors and wiring all change characteristics dynamicly when being vibrated. No big mystery here.
madmax

[xj4094dg]

There are all sorts of moving parts in electronics. Transformers and other windings, capacitors and wiring all change characteristics dynamicly when being vibrated. No big mystery here.
madmax

Thanks for an answer. I was after this type of information, not useless comments that have nothing to do with my questions. Thanks madmax.

[reeltrouble1]

its really very basic, so if you are a new to audio then I understand, thought your post was headed somewhere else with suggestion of placebo, personal belief, etc. when someone hears a difference then they do, empirical evidence in audio is the absolute.

Take my pre-amp as an example, the tube locations are selected specifically because their placement in the chassis is the spot with the lowest vibration nodes.

No problem though useless posts account for about 99% of RT1's history.

RT1

[xj4094dg]

its really very basic, so if you are a new to audio then I understand, thought your post was headed somewhere else with suggestion of placebo, personal belief, etc. when someone hears a difference then they do, empirical evidence in audio is the absolute.

Take my pre-amp as an example, the tube locations are selected specifically because their placement in the chassis is the spot with the lowest vibration nodes.

No problem though useless posts account for about 99% of RT1's history.

RT1

Thanks for a great response. I'm one of the many on this forum who got a late start on this journey so I'm going to have stupid questions from time to time. If you ask enough stupid questions you become smarter in my experience.

[steveinaz]

Our house is slab concrete construction, so I just have air-borne vibration to deal with. I had a set of high hats and triple points about 5 years ago from Mapleshade; they worked quite well with my CD Player (C.E.C. CD-3300). Couldn't hear any difference with any other component though. The high hats are every bit as important as the spiked feet BTW...

[DarqueKnight]

I see the potential for vibration affecting a turntable or a CD/DVD unit, how does vibration affect a unit without moving parts such as an amp or pre-amp?

When it comes to something as small as the electrons that compose an audio signal, there is no such thing as "no moving parts" due to the natural, persistent vibration of atoms and molecules in a conductor.

Vibration damping devices work on the principle of absorbing and transforming one form of energy into another. Some materials merely change the frequency of vibrational energy to a less detrimental frequency. Other materials change vibrational energy to heat.

Things in motion have kinetic energy. This additional kinetic energy, when added to the kinetic energy of electrons moving through a wire, adds noise and actually adds a but of impediment to the flow of energy (signal). If you are familiar with "super conductors", you know that resistance to current flow is reduced dramatically when the temperature is reduced. As a conductor's temperature is reduced, its natural molecular and atomic vibrations are reduced and current flow is enhanced. Conversely, as a conductor's temperature is increased, its natural molecular and atomic vibrations are increased and current flow is diminished.

A simplified analogy would be thinking of the audio signal as "skipping" from one atom to another as it flows through a conductor. Imagine the added difficulty experienced by the signal in "skipping" from one atom to another if the conductive atoms are in rapid random motion.


Why wouldn't the wood in the shelves be sufficient to reduce vibration? there is plenty of it. Also, it you wanted to reduce vibration wouldn't a rubber type compund work better than brass?

To reduce vibrational energy, we want to absorb (trap) and dispose of it. The only way to dispose of vibration is to change it to another form of energy. Wood, in its untreated state, is better at reflecting vibration (energy) back into the environment rather than absorbing it, which is why wood panels aren't used for sound insulation or vibration damping. Composite materials and metals make excellent vibration damping materials due to their ability to absorb vibrational energy and transform it into heat.

Rubber, unless it is specially treated, is not a good material for reducing vibration in audio systems because it absorbs and re-emits (reflects) vibrational energy at a lower frequency rather than trapping and converting the energy to heat.

[ken.paduch]

When it comes to something as small as the electrons that compose an audio signal, there is no such thing as "no moving parts" due to the natural, persistent vibration of atoms and molecules in a conductor.

Vibration damping devices work on the principle of absorbing and transforming one form of energy into another. Some materials merely change the frequency of vibrational energy to a less detrimental frequency. Other materials change vibrational energy to heat.

Things in motion have kinetic energy. This additional kinetic energy, when added to the kinetic energy of electrons moving through a wire, adds noise and actually adds a but of impediment to the flow of energy (signal). If you are familiar with "super conductors", you know that resistance to current flow is reduced dramatically when the temperature is reduced. As a conductor's temperature is reduced, its natural molecular and atomic vibrations are reduced and current flow is enhanced. Conversely, as a conductor's temperature is increased, its natural molecular and atomic vibrations are increased and current flow is diminished.

A simplified analogy would be thinking of the audio signal as "skipping" from one atom to another as it flows through a conductor. Imagine the added difficulty experienced by the signal in "skipping" from one atom to another if the conductive atoms are in rapid random motion.



To reduce vibrational energy, we want to absorb (trap) and dispose of it. The only way to dispose of vibration is to change it to another form of energy. Wood, in its untreated state, is better at reflecting vibration (energy) back into the environment rather than absorbing it, which is why wood panels aren't used for sound insulation or vibration damping. Composite materials and metals make excellent vibration damping materials due to their ability to absorb vibrational energy and transform it into heat.

Rubber, unless it is specially treated, is not a good material for reducing vibration in audio systems because it absorbs and re-emits (reflects) vibrational energy at a lower frequency rather than trapping and converting the energy to heat.

Thats the best response I have heard. Thanks!

[TouchOfEvil]

I need to get some of these for my cdp but i can't afford the ones listed here. Just a bit out of my range.

[janmike]

DK has a way with words. It's called knowledge and experience.

[Jetmaker737]

Thats the best response I have heard. Thanks!

However, I think the description of mechanical vibrations being of the same nature as thermal vibrations is in error. Mechanical vibration will move the material (metallic crystal) at a macro scale probably 5 or 6 orders of magnitude greater than the dimension of the atoms/ions in the material. And only a miniscule portion of the vibrational energy will be converted to thermal as the vibration passes through.

Anyways, I don't claim to be an expert. But I am an engineer and that's my understanding of the physics involved. Also not refuting the benefit of vibration dampening either. I think madmax's explanation may be more accurate.

[dorokusai]

I need to get some of these for my cdp but i can't afford the ones listed here. Just a bit out of my range.

Check out Bright Star Audio.

[DarqueKnight]

I think madmax's explanation may be more accurate.

Actually, the information I provided is supplementary to, and in full agreement with, what Madmax said.

The interested reader can use what has been posted here as a starting point for further study.

[Ern Dog]

I need to get some of these for my cdp but i can't afford the ones listed here. Just a bit out of my range.

Here's another alternative that looks similar to Mapleshade products, here (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstwek&1259680249&/Edensound-Bearpaw-Brass-Cones-).

[TouchOfEvil]

Here's another alternative that looks similar to Mapleshade products, here (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstwek&1259680249&/Edensound-Bearpaw-Brass-Cones-).

Very nice, thank you for the link kind sir!;)
I will also do some diggin on the Bright Stars thanks Doro!

[Jetmaker737]

The interested reader can use what has been posted here as a starting point for further study.

Agreed! And thank you to the OP for this thread. I had not thought about dampening before but I think it may be useful for my Jolida CDP.

You can get unfinished but planed maple shelves from mapleshade for $50-$75:

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/platforms_rtb.php

Then get your brass from edensound:
http://vermontaudio.com/index.html

[BlueFox]

Then get your brass from edensound:
http://vermontaudio.com/index.html

I like that there is competition in this area. Makes me think there might be something to this brass thing.


Here's another alternative that looks similar to Mapleshade products, here.

One point is the brass item listed above is the smallest one they offer. Mapleshade also has smaller models at lower prices.

[Cpyder]

However, I think the description of mechanical vibrations being of the same nature as thermal vibrations is in error. Mechanical vibration will move the material (metallic crystal) at a macro scale probably 5 or 6 orders of magnitude greater than the dimension of the atoms/ions in the material. And only a miniscule portion of the vibrational energy will be converted to thermal as the vibration passes through.

Anyways, I don't claim to be an expert. But I am an engineer and that's my understanding of the physics involved. Also not refuting the benefit of vibration dampening either. I think madmax's explanation may be more accurate.

As a fellow engineer, I too will have to throw up a flag. Mechanic vibrations and temperature (kinetic energy of molecules) do not follow the same math and theory. I'm not arguing against isolation benefits but I don't think a comparison can be made between temperature and mechanical vibrations like that.

[Jetmaker737]

Here's another option I ran across on the Gon:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accsrack&1262105615&/Michigan-Maple-Block-AJA02015-