Digital amps

[concealer404]

Well, i have found out that my "backup" receiver has digital amplification.

From what i've found on the interweb, this is a good thing.

It's a Pioneer Elite VSX-50. I always wondered why it had no issues driving pretty much anything i threw at it. Would this be the reason?

What are the pluses and minuses of digital amps? (Aren't BASH amps digital as well?)

Just looking for info/thoughts out of idle curiousity, maybe learn something new. :)

[anhchungdoan]

Well, i have found out that my "backup" receiver has digital amplification.

From what i've found on the interweb, this is a good thing.

It's a Pioneer Elite VSX-50. I always wondered why it had no issues driving pretty much anything i threw at it. Would this be the reason?

What are the pluses and minuses of digital amps? (Aren't BASH amps digital as well?)

Just looking for info/thoughts out of idle curiousity, maybe learn something new. :)

I may be wrong but your Pio is not digital amp but rather having a class D amplification. I was corrected by one of my buddy that my Pio SC05 was not a digital amp but as stated above a class D swiching amp.:confused:

[disneyjoe7]

Hmmm.... To me a D class amp is digital. Is marketing maybe making us think otherwise?

[concealer404]

I may be wrong but your Pio is not digital amp but rather having a class D amplification. I was corrected by one of my buddy that my Pio SC05 was not a digital amp but as stated above a class D swiching amp.:confused:

Most info that i've found online shows this particular unit to be a strange yet interesting animal.

It's got a digital amplifier, and the same DSP as the Emotiva DMC-1 and Sunfire Theatre Grand IV.

I'm almost tempted to try it in my HT setup and see how it does rather than trying to track down two more matching amps to use with my VSX-D850S.


Yes, the Pioneer VSX-50 is believed to use a digital amplifer. Although it is so rare, no one seems to have published much on it's innards. The nice thing about it is that it has MCACC, but I'm not certain whether or not it employs EQ as vigorously as the 1014.

There's quite a few reports in line with that, that i've found.


What's the advantages of a digital amp, though?

[anhchungdoan]

Hmmm.... To me a D class amp is digital. Is marketing maybe making us think otherwise?

As far as I know, D is not for digital. As in case with Pioneer amplification, it's a class D switching amplification based on B &O technology.

[heiney9]

This has been dicussed ad nausem already. Get your search on.

H9

[concealer404]

This has been dicussed ad nausem already. Get your search on.

H9

Yeah, i've read at least 15 threads on here about them, and another 5 or so elsewhere, but the most recent that went in any real depth looked to be about 4 years old. :)

I guess it's time for me to fire up the reciever this evening and see what i think, and report back. :) Luckily, i have another Pioneer reciever that is advertised as being slightly more powerful, and is SS that i can directly compare with.

Could be fun!

[concealer404]

As far as I know, D is not for digital. As in case with Pioneer amplification, it's a class D switching amplification based on B &O technology.

Well, for most.

My particular model seems to have "Class T."

[heiney9]

Pesonally I'm not a huge fan of class D amps for audiophile/critical listening but they do have their place because of some advantages.

I had the pleasure owning one of the simpler and among the best built gainclone amps (which are similar to class D type amps) and while it impressed me more than I expected I eventually sent it down the road. I used in my secondary rig for a couple months but eventually decided it was a little to cold and sterile for my tastes. It seemed somehow all the instruments and vocals were disconnected from each other...........didn;t seem to present everything as a "whole". Not a whole lot of warmth and very "steely" sounding. Same impression I've had of class D amps or H or G as well.

H9

[heiney9]

Well, for most.

My particular model seems to have "Class T."

T or tripath is similar as well to class D. Not the same, but similar.

[disneyjoe7]

D class amp are switched on and off, digital is the same. Splitting hairs here.

[concealer404]

T or tripath is similar as well to class D. Not the same, but similar.

Hrmmm... So did i use the right term to describe my particular piece?


But in response to your other post:

"Sterile" pretty much sums up what my thoughts on this unit were when i had it with my first "2-channel" setup, which is what i was running when i joined here. It was neither warm or bright to me, just very analytical and not REAL fun to listen to.

I had:

Polk VS-25s
Pio DV-50A
Pio VSX-50
Sidewinders

It was very detailed, just sounded a little lifeless after i got over the initial "WOW!!" factor. I moved onto separates shortly afterwards, but i've never had the chance to really try to tax the little VSX-50 (Though it had no problems pushing Monitor 7Cs to the point that police should have been called, with no ugly sounds), and i haven't even tried it in an HT setting yet. It'll be interesting to see how it copes with the relatively (at least compared to the VS-25s) power hungry Paradigm surround setup i can run. :) The speed of it may actually lend itself pretty well to HT, now that i think about it.

[Danny Tse]

The Panasonic digital amped HT receivers have gained quite a reputation for their sound quality. I'm not sure whether your Pioneer is of similar design.

My opinions of digital amps:

Plus - runs cool, can be very compact, sounds quite good with the right combination of sources (see below)
Minus - analog sources require additional processing

[SolidSqual]

What the hell is Class D?

[concealer404]

The Panasonic digital amped HT receivers have gained quite a reputation for their sound quality. I'm not sure whether your Pioneer is of similar design.

My opinions of digital amps:

Plus - runs cool, can be very compact, sounds quite good with the right combination of sources (see below)
Minus - analog sources require additional processing

So if i can feed them a digital signal, it's a whole different ballgame then? That may explain why it sounded so much better using an optical cable between the player and the reciever vs. analog interconnects?

From the threads on AVS forum, it seems that my Pioneer shares a similar design to the Panasonics. :)

It is very compact, it's a half-height unit, about the size of a normal CDP, and is surprisingly light. Weighs about 25% what my other Pioneer reciever does.

I noticed that you were posting in most of the older threads on this subject, i'm glad you found your way here. :D

[vc69]

What the hell is Class D?

D-cidedly not tubes. ;)

[heiney9]

What the hell is Class D?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_D_Amplifier

Yeah, I know wiki sucks............but it gives you some pretty good general info.

H9

[disneyjoe7]

The student's which didn't pass.

[SolidSqual]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_D_Amplifier

Yeah, I know wiki sucks............but it gives you some pretty good general info.

H9

haha . . . and here I thought I had Class A Valve Amps. Damn . . . :confused:

[concealer404]

haha . . . and here I thought I had Class A Valve Amps. Damn . . . :confused:

:p

You need to come by sometime.... i need someone to really tear apart my system so i can get a bee in my ass to REALLY do something.

[anhchungdoan]

What the hell is Class D?

Try this. http://www.analog.com/library/analogDialogue/archives/40-06/class_d.html

[Danny Tse]

I noticed that you were posting in most of the older threads on this subject, i'm glad you found your way here. :D

I had to give up on the idea of owning one of those Panasonic digital amps since I had too many analog sources. Can I really tell the analog >>> digital conversion? Probably not, but I guess the thought will always be in my mind.

Posting on various audio forums is part of my, ahem, daily ritual.

[concealer404]

I had to give up on the idea of owning one of those Panasonic digital amps since I had too many analog sources. Can I really tell the analog >>> digital conversion? Probably not, but I guess the thought will always be in my mind.

Posting on various audio forums is part of my, ahem, daily ritual.

So, am i looking at this right? This will probably sound like crap with an analog signal, but will sound better if i run a digital signal to it?

I.E: Digi Optical cable from CDP instead of i/cs? Or is it more complicated than that. I'm slightly lost. :(

[anhchungdoan]

On the contrary to the old school, I find the well-designed class D amps are in high demand ( Ice H20, Halcro, Channel Island Audio, Jeff Rowland, Bel Canto...). No heat, Compact & lightweight& Efficient. I have auditioned the Halcro M20 /Class D amp with the Rogue 99 tube-pre drving a pair of Emminent Technology LFT8 A, the sound stage is unbelievable. Strings, Vocal...are so real.

The ET/ LFT8A is an incredible planar pair of speakers but the combination of the good class D amp & tube have made me question the class A, A/B amp as Krell, Pass, Bryston....

[heiney9]

So, am i looking at this right? This will probably sound like crap with an analog signal, but will sound better if i run a digital signal to it?

I.E: Digi Optical cable from CDP instead of i/cs? Or is it more complicated than that. I'm slightly lost. :(

Doesn't matter, IMO.....it still doesn't do it for me.

[cfrizz]

Concealer, you have the gear, instead of letting everyone else put suggestions in you head, try it out for yourself like you said you were going to.

Listen to what your EARS tell you. Not what everyone else heard or thought they heard.

Sheesh you guys always have to make things 100 times more complicated then they have to be!

Stop overthinking! Now shut up & go listen!

[concealer404]

Concealer, you have the gear, instead of letting everyone else put suggestions in you head, try it out for yourself like you said you were going to.

Listen to what your EARS tell you. Not what everyone else heard or thought they heard.

Sheesh you guys always have to make things 100 times more complicated then they have to be!

Stop overthinking! Now shut up & go listen!

Already on it. I'm just trying to understand what makes these things tick now, but it's kindof hard when i'm told it's Class D, Class D switching, not really digital, Class T, etc etc etc.

I know what it sounds like, and i'm highly impressed for HT use, for something that's only rated at 100wpc. But that said, it is actually rated at 6x100. It's beating the paradigms louder than i'll ever need them to go, no hint of distortion, it's not brittle in the slightest. It's not warm either, but for HT, i'm not real worried about that.

I'm trying to stay away from a sub at the moment, if i wanted to really use this reciever, i would need a sub. It doesn't QUITE have the low end ass that these speakers normally have powered off my oinker amp. So, after i swap out and see what the SS Pioneer reciever sounds like compared to this one, i'll probably continue trying to find a couple more of these amps for HT.

Not sure that i'll sell the VSX-50 though. Probably sell my spare Adcom gear and just use this instead in the bedroom. :) Like i said, HIGHLY impressed.

[Danny Tse]

So, am i looking at this right? This will probably sound like crap with an analog signal, but will sound better if i run a digital signal to it?

I.E: Digi Optical cable from CDP instead of i/cs? Or is it more complicated than that. I'm slightly lost. :(

For the Panasonic HT receivers with digital amps, their main weakness was in fact their analog inputs. What you are looking at is an additional stage of conversion, from analog to digital. With a digital input, the incoming signal remains digital until the speaker outputs. In essence, the digital amp becomes the DAC.

Not sure if this is the same signal path for your Pioneer though.

[concealer404]

For the Panasonic HT receivers with digital amps, their main weakness was in fact their analog inputs. What you are looking at is an additional stage of conversion, from analog to digital. With a digital input, the incoming signal remains digital until the speaker outputs.

Ahhh... that explains a LOT about what my impressions were back in the day with the 2-channel setup. :)

Thanks!

[heiney9]

Like i said, HIGHLY impressed.

Make sure to give it 30-45 days. I was the same way when I got my gainclone. The gainlcone is no longer here. I'm being dead serious......I give any new gear the 60 day test because impressions can change quickly when you have to live with it on daily/weekly basis.

The clean, sterile, detached, etched sound wears thin after awhile. So I wouldn't go selling any stash just yet.

[concealer404]

Make sure to give it 30-45 days. I was the same way when I got my gainclone. The gainlcone is no longer here. I'm being dead serious......I give any new gear the 60 day test because impressions can change quickly when you have to live with it on daily/weekly basis.

The clean, sterile, detached, etched sound wears thin after awhile. So I wouldn't go selling any stash just yet.

Oh, it'll be in for awhile, i know all about the "month rule." :p I've made a few bad decisions along the way. ;)

I'm not real worried about the bedroom, i never do any critical listening there... i just like to fall asleep to music. I'd probably be happy with GASP Bose in there.

[GV#27]

The clean, sterile, detached, etched sound wears thin after awhile. So I wouldn't go selling any stash just yet.

Are you suggesting all Class D sounds as you describe above,or are you talking specifically about a certain model you have expierience with?

[heiney9]

Are you suggesting all Class D sounds as you suggest above,or are you talking specifically about a certain model you have expierience with?

I know better than to say all :p, there are no absolutes in this hobby. But a class D or Tripath amp will never sound like a single ended class A amp or tubes, hence my description.

H9

[GV#27]

"There are no absolutes... But a class D amp will never sound like a single ended class A amp or tubes, hence my description".

That sounds like an absolute to me.

just bustin your chops. :p

Actually I held a similar opinion about Class D but my expierience with the Hypex modules has changed my thinking.IMO they are very capable little amps.They don't have the sheer accuracy and dynamic punch of my Bryston's but are more laid back with a sweeter top end than the sometimes hard and agressive treble I hear with the little (Class AB) Gainclones.As blasphemous as it may seem there are reports of some listeners actually ranking thier SQ on par with certain tube and some well regarded SS designs.Ofcourse everyones mileage will vary and system synergy is a big factor.

[GV#27]

Silly me ,I forgot to ask which Class D designs have you had the(dis) pleasure of hearing at length?

[cnh]

For the Panasonic HT receivers with digital amps, their main weakness was in fact their analog inputs. What you are looking at is an additional stage of conversion, from analog to digital. With a digital input, the incoming signal remains digital until the speaker outputs. In essence, the digital amp becomes the DAC.

Not sure if this is the same signal path for your Pioneer though.

I own a 2nd generation Panasonic HT AVR as described by Danny...and I agree...analog doesn't cut it....but digital to digial is surprising for such a 'cheap' unit. It is clean and relatively powerful for efficient speakers....the advantages are only in digital to digital connections....and the fact that it is very efficient...Class D amps can hit a 90% efficiency with very little power wasted in excess heat! They run cool and mine draws only 135 watts from the wall socket for 6 channels X 80 wattsRMS at 8 ohms....and that is a REAL power rating...has been tested professionally for 5 channels!

I can also understand how one might tire of it...as Heiney describes. When I first set it up years ago...I was amazed at the two channel digital to digital performance but as I listened to it more and more I just liked it...and no longer found it 'amazing'. The reaon is that at lower to moderate volumes it does have an exceptionally 'clean' sound...but it isn't particularly 'warm' or holistic! But for its price! It was a good buy.

cnh

[Sherardp]

I have been running class D amps since like 05/06. I have been running ICEamps, which is Class D and the results are nothing short of spectacular. Very dynamic, detailed, and excellent midbass improvements using my D-Sonic. Most Iceamps are based on B&O ASP modules, most manufacturers use the same modules just add different cases and charge you out the ass for them. If you want to try a relatively cheap amp try Nuforce, D-Sonic.

[concealer404]

Well, i watched a movie on it last night, "The Tournament." (highly entertaining, by the way.)

Keeping in mind that my HT setup is far from complete at the moment, i was just running a 4.0 system. I was very impressed. Due to the time that i started watching, 11pm, i couldn't crank it or anything, but i was astounded by the "punch" everything still had. I had no issues hearing dialogue, hearing every little creak and shuffle of the assassins creeping around, and explosions were QUICK and decayed perfectly.

But, it's the little things that will keep me from putting it in the main rotation even for HT:

1) Has those stupid clip/crimp speaker connectors
2) No pre-outs for future upgrades (not a huge deal, it's plenty powerful.)
3) It's a half-height, and looks stupid on my tv stand :p
4) Not quite as many options as i would like in my main avr

So, it's getting relegated to bedroom duty after i finish my setup around my D850S.