Expensive audio products...worth it?

[jaxwired]

Ever notice how many HiFi manufacturer's advertisements make statements like "better than competitors costing several times the price"? You might say this is just marketing hype, but I suspect that many of the manufactures actually believe it to be true.

I also see this type of statement frequently in audio product reviews. So many reviewers also often find products that are competitive with much more expensive offerings from other manufacturers.

So, if there's any truth to these claims, there must be a boat load of expensive products that are poor value for money.

[pearsall001]

Only your wallet & ears can make that decision. But bear in mind that as you move up the audio chain a hugh part of the expense is in the "cosmetics" of the gear. It's very expensive to make them look pretty.

Also, as technology advances the trickle down effect comes into play. The gap is closing between the expensive gear & the not so expensive gear. To the point that you have to scratch your head sometimes wonder why brand X costs $$$$$ & brand Y costs $$ & yet you can't perceive any sonic difference. Whatever makes you happy is all that counts.

[tonyb]

Like all products,marketing borders on down right lieing.And yes,their sure are a boat load of expensive products that don't measure up. Thats why you join audio boards,cruise other ones,pay attention to the products people feel are worth their value. Some are even under valued and give a great bang for your buck. Like Polk.

[xcapri79]

Those manufacturers are correct when they compare themselves to overpriced Bose products.

Additionally most claims are qualitiative and subjective. Being a matter of opinion, it seems to me that pretty much anything can be said, since everyone is entitled to theirs. Isn't that what persuasive marketing is all about?

There is also the law of diminishing retuns to consider. As you move up, additional benefits tend to decrease or become "nice to have" features rather than essential features and of course all of those definitions are subjective.

One man's junk is another man's treasure.

[apphd]

The build quality comes into play sometimes as well. A $ product may perform as well as a $$$ product, but for how long? Some products will use more expensive materials and manufacturing processes, which may not affect SQ at all. But when you handle it there is just no denying it is much better built. This also may not really improve reliability at all but perception is that it will.

[TroyD]

It's a subjective thing....for those that have heard RT1's Rabbit Hole gear....absolutely no question the answer is yes.

BDT

[Zero]

In my experience, manufacturers both big and small are usually composed of down to earth people who will readily admit that there are plenty of fine designs offered by various competitors outside of their own product lines. I've only come across a few who say: "This product was designed to compete with other products that cost 2-3x the price" and seriously mean it.

As for reviewers. Usually it's either A) hype to get you to read or purchase the publication. B) A way of trying to score some free goodies from the manufacturer. C) An inexperienced reviewer who has no business writing reviews in the first place, or D) The rare case of an experienced and credible reviewer who was genuinely floored by a product.

Otherwise, most know that there are precious few "giant killers" that can step into the ring against bigger, badder competitors in a 1 vs 1 brawl. Rarely does the cheaper product walk out the "winner", at least when you level the playing field using a products MSRP.

Still, I've ran into tons of situations where I prefer the sound of a less expensive component or system. That doesn't mean the product was inherently better, it just mean that I preferred its sound. There has been only one product I've come across where I can say its sonic virtues are well above and beyond what I've experienced in its respective price range. That's it. One. Out of hundreds.

I've come to find that you usually get what you pay for in this gig. Some things feel like a better value than others, but ultimately, if you want super high end performance (paying new for a current-production product), you're gunna have to fork over the appropriate amount of green. It then becomes a game of determining your own line of diminishing returns. The fun is in the journey! Good luck!

[Hawkeye]

Prove it to yourself. Go to a high end dealer with your favorite music and being totally honest with yourself, compare the equipment. If the sound is as good as what you have now, then your correct. If the sound is better, you have your answer.

Gordon

[thuffman03]

IMO there is a diminishing return on investment to a point. There is a very good example of this with the Carver Challenge. Bob Carver took his M1.0 $700 amp and made it sound like a $10k amp.

http://www.stereophile.com/features/the_carver_challenge/

Now everyone hears differently and what sounds good to you might not sound good to others. There is an emotional connection also. If you believe if something is better because it costs more than it will sound better to you.

So to say that the more you spend the better something will sound is subject to what sounds good to you.

[heiney9]

I love that Carver link if you read between the lines it wasn't as successful as many over the years have lead other's to believe. I have a lot of respect for Bob Carver.........but that whole exercise make me chuckle.

H9

[shack]

My experience is that the so called "giant killers"...are anything but. They may be good value for what they are...but no more...no less. Regardless of what you might think...really good, high end, expensive gear is purchased for what it delivers (for the most part). Not status...not eye candy...not name dropping...but because it offers (and delivers) the buyer a level of performance they seek.

This was an ongoing dicussion over the weekend. Some are happy with gear that delivers 95% (subjective) of the performance that TOL gear delivers. If they can live with that fine. But there are those that strive to get the last level of of performance, sound, whatever...and are willing to spend to get the gear that will take them to that level. Even then...what succeeds for some doesn't work for others.

Those that scoff at anyone who purchases high end gear, cables, tweeks, etc...just don't get it IMO. While I may not CHOOSE to take that path...it is no less valid just because I don't. And I never berate anyone for what they do/spend/try in this hobby...EXCEPT...for those who try and tell us that something does not matter and that we should trust them to tell us what is or is not valid. This is such a subjective hobby that the only way to know...is to try it...and then decide what works for YOU!

[polkatese]

Isn't the definition of "Expensive" is subjective in nature and it means different thing to different people? Unless we are talking about gears priced north of $5000 MSRP (as far as my own definition of expensive)?

[Hawkeye]

The Carver challenge is an interesting read. But is the $700 amp still a $700 amp after all the new bits and pieces are factored in? What about the 48 hours of labor which are not factored into the equation.

Shack made an interesting point. It is what we expect from the gear. I expect it to work flawlessly out of the box. I expect it to continue to perform for many years. I expect it to hold it's value over time. Finally, I expect to be able to give it to one of my children as a heirloom to enjoy.

Customer service is great, but a DOA piece is still a DOA piece and the resulting hassle of sending an item back for repair and being without music is not a risk I'm willing to take.

Gordon

[shack]

Isn't the definition of "Expensive" is subjective in nature and it means different thing to different people?

Yes.


Unless we are talking about gears priced north of $5000 MSRP (as far as my own definition of expensive)?

There are those that would consider $5,000 ± to be "mid-level". Just prove's your first statement I guess.

[zombie boy 2000]

I'm with Polkatese on this one. I know people that make disgusting amounts of money that would consider Polk's entry line to be "expensive" - at least, relative to whatever it is they are trying to accomplish. More than likely, five different sounds from five different speakers. All of it enjoyed upon a diamond-encrusted throne while eating fistfuls of rubies.

[shack]

Shack made an interesting point. It is what we expect from the gear. I expect it to work flawlessly out of the box. I expect it to continue to perform for many years. I expect it to hold it's value over time. Finally, I expect to be able to give it to one of my children as a heirloom to enjoy.

Interesting...not a single word about what you expected it to SOUND like.

[concealer404]

I feel like i can't comment here... since i thought my XPA-2 was expensive.

Oh crap. That WORD. Well, it's certainly relevant in this thread for many reasons. It WAS VERY expensive. :p

[Hawkeye]

Interesting...not a single word about what you expected it to SOUND like.

I think that goes without saying it, otherwise I would not have purchased it:D

Gordon

[dkg999]

Expensive gear (whatever that is in your perspective) does usually raise the quality of music reproduction. It is however, IMHO, about listening to music, on the hi-fi. Like Shack, I have no problem with those that spend lots of money on audio/HT gear. It's really all about the enjoyment, and if you get that enjoyment out of a couple of hundred dollars of vintage gear, who is to say your enjoyment is any less than the person who spent many thousands of dollars to listen to the same LP, CD, tape, 8 track, etc.

[heiney9]

Expensive gear (whatever that is in your perspective) does usually raise the quality of music reproduction. It is however, IMHO, about listening to music, on the hi-fi. Like Shack, I have no problem with those that spend lots of money on audio/HT gear. It's really all about the enjoyment, and if you get that enjoyment out of a couple of hundred dollars of vintage gear, who is to say your enjoyment is any less than the person who spent many thousands of dollars to listen to the same LP, CD, tape, 8 track, etc.


Exactly!

And only when someone states their couple hundred dollar amp or pre-amp or cdp or whatever can keep up with and out perfrom a several thousand dollar piece do the verbal fights start. Or things like multiple hundred or thousand dollar cables don;t matter, etc.

I'm sure people that own entry level rigs enjoy the music just as much as those who own $5-10K+ rigs. But when the budget rig owners start telling the other owners they could get the same sound for thousands less..........all the subjectivity goes out of the room and then the heated, and most times uninformed, debate starts.

We all have a budget and for the most part we need to live within that budget. Just realize their is better gear out there, and yes, in most cases you get what you pay for and you are always compromising unless you have completely unlimited funds.

H9

[treitz3]

I have heard $125,000.00 systems and quarter of a million dollar systems that sounded rather bad to not what I would consider desirable. On the flip side, I have heard modest systems that completely blew my socks off. I think synergy is more important than cost when it comes to audio reproduction .

Thing is, when you can find that synergy within a system...it's priceless.

[concealer404]

I have heard $125,000.00 systems and quarter of a million dollar systems that sounded rather bad to not what I would consider desirable. On the flip side, I have heard modest systems that completely blew my socks off. I think synergy is more important than cost when it comes to audio reproduction .

Thing is, when you can find that synergy within a system...it's priceless.

Mmmm.... synergy. It's a bitch. But i do so love that bitch. :D

[heiney9]

Cost is NOT the most important issue.............but do realize that to achieve certain audio goals you can't be limited by cost either. There is a relationship between cost and peformance; it's just not the only factor or the most important factor.

There is no substutuite for experience in this hobby...................or in any hobby really. I think of other hobbies I've had or have and the most important factor is experience. It helps make the decisions, and experience comes over time.

I could give a person who has never heard anything but a Bose system and an experienced hi-fi hobbiest $10K to build a system. I'd bet the experienced hifi person would build a better system for less than $10K than the person who's only audio experience is Bose. My guess is the Bose person would more than likely run out and get the most expensive gear $10K would buy. That doesn;t mean it will sound the best. SYNERGY and experience will trumph everytime

[steveinaz]

I read an article recently at Stereophile that stated 30-40% of the expense of a component, is the chasis/faceplate/knobs/lighting, etc--nothing related to the actual circuits/functioning of the equipment. Interesting.

[SCompRacer]

So, if there's any truth to these claims, there must be a boat load of expensive products that are poor value for money.

Yes you can find gear that has very high performance for the dollar from smaller manufacturers. They are small companies, with less mouths to feed. The other side of the coin is will I be able to have my gear serviced if something should happen to the head guy.

[polkatese]

I'm sure people that own entry level rigs enjoy the music just as much as those who own $5-10K+ rigs. But when the budget rig owners start telling the other owners they could get the same sound for thousands less..........all the subjectivity goes out of the room and then the heated, and most times uninformed, debate starts.
H9

hear hear!

Anything Subjective is subject to a set of subjective believes that will prevail within one's own realm regardless of what others subjectively believe.

:p

[treitz3]

I read an article recently at Stereophile that stated 30-40% of the expense of a component, is the chasis/faceplate/knobs/lighting, etc--nothing related to the actual circuits/functioning of the equipment. Interesting.Crap, I feel cheated then. My Dodd MLP has a wood chassis, knobs and only 1 LED. :eek:

[concealer404]

Cost is NOT the most important issue.............but do realize that to achieve certain audio goals you can't be limited by cost either. There is a relationship between cost and peformance; it's just not the only factor or the most important factor.

There is no substutuite for experience in this hobby...................or in any hobby really. I think of other hobbies I've had or have and the most important factor is experience. It helps make the decisions, and experience comes over time.

I could give a person who has never heard anything but a Bose system and an experienced hi-fi hobbiest $10K to buy a system. I'd bet the experienced hifi person would build a better system for less than $10K than the person who's only audio experience is Bose.

I personally like trying to get as close as i can on a budget of peanuts. It's a challenge, and i love to tinker and try to get as much gear as possible through my rig, even if none of it is TRULY considered "high end."

I have less in my entire rig than a lot of people will spend on cables alone, and nobody has yet told me that it sounded bad.

Of course, i'm not going to sit here and say that it'll go toe to toe with even 20% of the setups on this site. It's lacking money and experience sunk into it.


As for the original question? Yes. Worth it. I'd heard some high end stuff that puts me to shame. It'd be worth it to me. If i could afford it.

[CoolJazz]

It'd be worth it to me. If i could afford it.
Nominated as the quote of all time!!! ;)

[madmax]

I'm always up to trying to make a great system out of giant killers, junk, odd stuff. It can easily be done for peanuts. So what if it doesn't sound perfect. To get better costs money. If you have it, fine. If you don't then you have very little choice other than to give up something else. As a friend once told me: "You can have anything you want, just not everything you want".
madmax

[Hawkeye]

concealer404, Never be ashamed of what you have or don't have in the way of audio. There are too many other important things in life!

I was on a budget for many years of my life when it came to audio. Raising kids and providing a roof over their heads was of more importance to me. Once my children were on their own and their impact on the household budget decreased, it never ends totally, by the way:D there was more disposable income available.

I didn't wake up one day and decide I'm going to spend X amount of dollars. I know what I liked and saved to get it. I haven't rolled as many pieces as some here since I didn't want to get on that merry go round. In my system, I'm done. It makes me happy and that is all that matters.

Gordon

[heiney9]

I read an article recently at Stereophile that stated 30-40% of the expense of a component, is the chasis/faceplate/knobs/lighting, etc--nothing related to the actual circuits/functioning of the equipment. Interesting.

This can be expecially true for amps.

A true class A power amp of decent wattage needs a huge transformer and the chassis and heatsinks make it very expensive especially if they are low production runs of say <1000 pieces.


I know of a particular amp designer who originally had a cubed heatsink chassis (heatsinks on all 4 sides) milled from a soild block of aluminium. Later he decided to use a more traditional rectangular chassis and cut the cost of the newer amp by 20%. Same design and a few upgraded parts, but essentially the same amp.

H9

[concealer404]

concealer404, Never be ashamed of what you have or don't have in the way of audio. There are too many other important things in life!

I was on a budget for many years of my life when it came to audio. Raising kids and providing a roof over their heads was of more importance to me. Once my children were on their own and their impact on the household budget decreased, it never ends totally, by the way:D there was more disposable income available.

I didn't wake up one day and decide I'm going to spend X amount of dollars. I know what I liked and saved to get it. I haven't rolled as many pieces as some here since I didn't want to get on that merry go round. In my system, I'm done. It makes me happy and that is all that matters.

Gordon

Oh i'm not ashamed of it at all. I'm actually pretty proud of what i've accomplished for so little. The best part about it is, i don't get mad if something blows, or if i try something and it sounds horrible, i just move it out, and try something else. At this stage in the game, if i try something and it sounds bad, i'll be able to resell it for at least the same money i purchased it for.

My only REAL complaint is that i seem to have drained a lot of the cool stuff out of my area. I'm going to have to start making bi-weekly trips to Chicago or something. ;)

[madmax]

I noticed someone earlier said something about saving up for gear. That is something I've never done. I don't want any real heart to go into a piece of gear because it could make it harder to tell yourself it sucks. I typically just put it on the card and figure out later how to pay it off. Not for everyone.
madmax

[coolsax]

I noticed someone earlier said something about saving up for gear. That is something I've never done. I don't want any real heart to go into a piece of gear because it could make it harder to tell yourself it sucks. I typically just put it on the card and figure out later how to pay it off. Not for everyone.
madmax

probably not the most efficient way to do it(long term, obviously most efficient short term :) ).. but I'm right there with you on this.. I'll figure it out later.. helped on my avr though got 18 mo no interest through BB. just like saving up only i have it while i'm saving up for it :)

[beardog03]

I remember a long time ago, I was in a "stereo shop" looking at a "high end" AVR and went into the sound room...I had made my mind up that I was going to get this receiver and was looking at speakers...

I went all around the room listening to speakers when the guy came in and flipped some swithches and POW...that was it !!...the sound I was looking for
Turned out to be some Carver mono blocks 7`s or 9`s not sure..

I said to myself right then, that someday when I got the coin together, that I would have somethingg like that !

That was some 10 or 15 years ago , I think..

I bought he AVR...a yammie, and was happy....

until one day I wanted some speaker grills for my RTi2000`s.

I found this place and , with ALOT of guidence I worked my way up into what I have now.

It`s not always about the cost, but about the value, performance, build quality, and most of all the sound that you get as you move up into something that was built for just one reason......pure sound quality.

I still have a long way to go to get that "feeling" that I got that day, but I am on my way.....and loving every "discovery" that I make


All with the help of the friends that I made here at Club Polk

Just remeber...the Journey counts !!

And I`m not even close to being done yet.....if there is such a thing

[markmarc]

IMO there is a diminishing return on investment to a point. There is a very good example of this with the Carver Challenge. Bob Carver took his M1.0 $700 amp and made it sound like a $10k amp.

http://www.stereophile.com/features/the_carver_challenge/

The one thing people forget to ask about the Carver challenge is why Bob Carver never built such an amp at a killer price? Simple, because it couldn't be done on a mass scale for a variety of reasons.

[treitz3]

Huh?

[steveinaz]

As much as I'd like to have the income necessary to be a "price-no-object" listener, there's also a side of me that enjoys getting great bang for my buck.

I definitely want to kick my speaker game up a BIG notch.

[beardog03]

I would like to do that also...

I just really don`t know where to start

Fundage is slim unfortunately, but I have always owned Polk Speaks

The ones I have drooling after are Sonus Fabers....way outta reach

[thuffman03]

The one thing people forget to ask about the Carver challenge is why Bob Carver never built such an amp at a killer price? Simple, because it couldn't be done on a mass scale for a variety of reasons.

I have to disagree with you on your statement. He did make his M 1.0 amp which cost $700 at the time compared to the $10,000 tube amp sound the same. He then went on and made all of his amps have a tube like sound. The modded amp after the challange was called the M1.0t.

All the TFM amps are made to sound like the Carver Silver 7 tube amps, which were a $20,000 amp, and most of the the Sunfire amps have two different outputs. One to give you a tight solidstate soundstage and the other to give a tube soundstage.

So IMO he did give the masses an option for a solidstate amp that would sound like a high end tube amp for a lot less money.

[heiney9]

^^ I take it you were there so you know first hand. What was it like to be around all that press? When did you own the Silver 7's and when did you compare them to every TFM amp? Why did you sell the Silver 7's? Bet you wish you would have kept those. Do you still have the M1.0t you used for comparison?

H9

[thsmith]

I can not add any real value to this conversation but that has never stopped me from having an opinion.

Many of the people here who have posted to this thread has helped my get on the right path to my journey like H9, Hearingimparied, Jesse and Goerge and many others.

What I am finding that works for me is buying used gear at the right price that allows me to re-sell it with out to much loss has allowed me to find the synergy I have now.

Specifically my SDA-1Cs, Adcom GFP-750 pre, Rotel CDP and my Anthem AMP 1. None which I could have afforded new.

I believe it takes a lot of listening from people who have been down this path, listening to different systems and buying the best you can afford.

I always loose when I buy quickly and spur of the moment.

Back to the OP's question. As I have heard it here said before, cry once or cry twice.

[buymesome]

IMO there is a diminishing return on investment to a point. There is a very good example of this with the Carver Challenge. Bob Carver took his M1.0 $700 amp and made it sound like a $10k amp.

http://www.stereophile.com/features/the_carver_challenge/

Now everyone hears differently and what sounds good to you might not sound good to others. There is an emotional connection also. If you believe if something is better because it costs more than it will sound better to you.

So to say that the more you spend the better something will sound is subject to what sounds good to you.

Great article there

It makes me wana buy a carver amp after just reading it

[thuffman03]

^^ I take it you were there so you know first hand. What was it like to be around all that press? When did you own the Silver 7's and when did you compare them to every TFM amp? Why did you sell the Silver 7's? Bet you wish you would have kept those. Do you still have the M1.0t you used for comparison?

H9

What is your problem? All I said was that I disagreed with him and why.

You are a jerk!

[GV#27]

I know of a particular amp designer who originally had a cubed heatsink chassis (heatsinks on all 4 sides) milled from a soild block of aluminium. Later he decided to use a more traditional rectangular chassis and cut the cost of the newer amp by 20%. Same design and a few upgraded parts, but essentially the same amp.

H9IMO the orignal heat sink/chassis while functional was a tad fugly, I like the design for the newer version,which looks to me to be the same basic heat sink/chassis design used for the FW models that followed.

[heiney9]

Just pointing out that this famous encounter wasn't as successful as people today are lead to believe. Again if you read my earlier response I respect Bob, just feel that there are many who were there that day and felt wasn't as successful as all the hype surrounding the event, especially now many years later. That's all. I wasn't there either and I'm just sharing my opinion on that famous experiment based on what I've read; same as your basing your opinion based on what you've read.

H9

[heiney9]

IMO the orignal heat sink/chassis while functional was a tad fugly, I like the design for the newer version,which looks to me to be the same basic chassis as used for the FW designs.

Me too! I never cared for the look of the "porcupine", many did though. Yes, in talking with him I found out mine was one of the last off the production line and they did in fact use the same chassis for the FW line.

[steveinaz]

I think the biggest mistake people make is thinking that they have to have high priced goods to enjoy the music. If that's the case, you're in it for all the wrong reasons.

[F1nut]

I'd like to touch on the Carver amp conversation. As much as some would like to believe, the Silver 7 tube amps sound nothing like the 7t SS version, nor any of the other Carver or Sunfire SS amps for that matter. IMO.

[apphd]

......... It's really all about the enjoyment, and if you get that enjoyment out of a couple of hundred dollars of vintage gear, who is to say your enjoyment is any less than the person who spent many thousands of dollars to listen to the same LP, CD, tape, 8 track, etc.


Exactly!

We all have a budget and for the most part we need to live within that budget. Just realize their is better gear out there, and yes, in most cases you get what you pay for and you are always compromising unless you have completely unlimited funds.

H9

+1 These should get posted in every "What is better" or What should I buy" thread.

[jaxwired]

Darn, I didn't get to even participate in my own thread all day.
Work...gotta love it...I'll play next time.

[TECHNOKID]

I noticed someone earlier said something about saving up for gear. That is something I've never done. I don't want any real heart to go into a piece of gear because it could make it harder to tell yourself it sucks. I typically just put it on the card and figure out later how to pay it off. Not for everyone.
madmaxYour last sentence is the most important: "Not for everyone." I think budget is the primary goal and it should determined one's level of spending (therefore the quality of gear he acquires). Personally, I much prefer (and do enjoy :cool: ) mid-range gear (which I know I'll keep ;) ) over high-end (which in the long run I might have to part with :eek: ). There are gear for each and every budget, as previously pointed out, knowledge and experience plays a big part of the picture. I will not wait to buy gear solely when I have the money but I'll make darn sure what I buy is paid within a month or so before I buy the next piece. Some I always remember; "The only time one starts from the top is when digging him self a hole!"

I think low to mid systems owners shouldn't be treathened and shouldn't try to diminish high end owners choices. 5K systems are low in the game since one could involved 10s of thousands... so what, might as well own what you can afford and just be happy for the proud owners of the high end systems. The fact that 5K systems sounds good for some of us, doesn't mean that higher $$$K spending is poor spending.


I think the biggest mistake people make is thinking that they have to have high priced goods to enjoy the music. If that's the case, you're in it for all the wrong reasons.I agree with you, enjoying the moment (with what you can actually afford) and improving as experience, knowledge and budget allows you is the best way to about the audio passion.


+1 These should get posted in every "What is better" or What should I buy" thread.This is what I deplore the most, someone's new, has a definite budget and people turning around bashing the modest gear they want to start with and trying to lead them into their expensive path which in some cases actually took them a few years to built. This comment isn't tied to CP, I see that on just about any audio or digital forums.

Of course, people should be discouraged to waste their hard earned money on marketting hype type gear like bose, mon$ter and most HTIB's so called packages. While some people can't afford or would be quite happy with HTIBs, there are better avenues than the typical crappy all in one 1000's of watts HTIBs. IE: SoundBars of often mix and matched HTIBs offered with previous year receivers (usually the best deals).

Sometime, trying to lead someone toward used quality gear or simply encourage the poster to buy one piece at a time with the goal of buying better while keeping consistant with their personal budget. The usual "what is better" is usually a cry from a novice simply asking "what is good", what is good should be specific to that person and doesn't always mean top dollar. I think Polk always worked and understood this fact, thus the reason for their vast choice at different prices. While we all respect Polk, even with Polk there are different ranges of budget gear and while CP is good marketting for the company, I believe the forum is also in fact a good way to educate us in order to get the BBB.

Cheers!
TK

[BlueFox]

I suspect the majority of people with expensive gear started with modest priced gear, and just kept upgrading because the upgrades sounded better.

[lakesailor]

Bottom line is that topology (aka design) power supply and build quality (including parts of course) are the three biggest factors that will influence the actual sound of a component. It is marketing that will put a price on that sound. Never confuse the first three points with the last one.

[F1nut]

I suspect the majority of people with expensive gear started with modest priced gear, and just kept upgrading because the upgrades sounded better.

Bingo!

[TECHNOKID]

Bottom line is that topology (aka design) power supply and build quality (including parts of course) are the three biggest factors that will influence the actual sound of a component. It is marketing that will put a price on that sound. Never confuse the first three points with the last one.When talking about parts and built quality these days people should realize that most (even in the high end) comes from China anyway... I guess it is a matter of opinion then to claim quality. Maybe high end name but unless all genuine Norht american parts are used, the question is; is it really high end equipment considering the above? or is it high name with high end cosmetics and pricing? Simple food for tought...

Cheers!
TK

[cnh]

+1 from China....more and more is being manufactured here...every day..even more high end....as manufacturing knowledge and facilities improve...who can fault this process...sure I'd like it if there were more not less American manufacturing....but that's not completely within our control.

I also agree with F1nut and BlueFox's quote above.

cnh

[reeltrouble1]

jax,

Your going to have a chance to find out for yourself in the very near future.......believe it or not a big-time audio event is coming to Jacksonville Fl.........I will post up more in a seperate thread.

I also have an inside line on a much more intimate gathering coming soon in December being put on by Steve Davis and the Florida Audio Society near Daytona, cool gear like Koetsu and Oracle.....more details to come soon for Polkies who want to know on this one.

RT1

[markmarc]

I'd like to touch on the Carver amp conversation. As much as some would like to believe, the Silver 7 tube amps sound nothing like the 7t SS version, nor any of the other Carver or Sunfire SS amps for that matter. IMO.

Thank you F1.

[jaxwired]

jax,
Your going to have a chance to find out for yourself in the very near future.......believe it or not a big-time audio event is coming to Jacksonville Fl.........I will post up more in a seperate thread.

Is it this: http://www.axpona.com/

[TECHNOKID]

+1 from China....more and more is being manufactured here...every day..even more high end....as manufacturing knowledge and facilities improve...who can fault this process...sure I'd like it if there were more not less American manufacturing....but that's not completely within our control.

I also agree with F1nut and BlueFox's quote above.

cnhI also agree with their comments (F1 and BlueFox), that is the only way to go about it. As far as the China comment, it is met as food for tought. This has been seen in the past with Japan, Mexico and Korea to name a few examples. When the new players get involved in the game the quality drastically drops until they get their acts together (Japan is a good example when talking about electronics and cars while Korea is a good one when talking about cars). High end audio is not getting away from sharing the low end China parts so can we still really call high end aside from brand name and still reaping the glory from long past days of high quality? For example (questions to owners) are the newer high end production (using mossfets) can honestly be compared to vintage high end amps (using the legendary T03 casing transistors)? From experience, I know most modern SS and surface mount technologies are not comparable in quality and reliability as their predecessor (just like SS never really came close to the HQ of tubes). With countries like China over this that are totally out of control of the typical QC that was originally established. In one simple question; Could today's high end simply be the low end of yesterday?

Cheers!
TK

[heiney9]

In one simple question; Could today's high end simply be the low end of yesterday?

Cheers!
TK

No...............but then your definition of 'high end' and my definition probably aren't the same.

You really believe that compaines like BAT, Pass, McIntosh, Krell, Musical Fidelity, Classe, Belles, Bel Canto, Bryston and many other premium brands are to be considered the same as yesterday's low end?

I think I get your point with some of the higher $$ Chinese designed offerings but I can assure you the premium higher end brands designed in the USA don't suffer from cheap parts or build and are certainly not yesterday's low end and sound infinitly better than yesterday's stuff.

H9

[Face]

Could today's high end simply be the low end of yesterday?

Cheers!
TK
Not anytime soon.

[sucks2beme]

it's like buying an expensive car.
Why are you buying it? Fast? Agile? Luxury? Snob appeal?
One up the other guy?

Same with audio. Some products are better in all areas, some areas, or just look nice. I wouldn't give 2 cents for a Caddy, but there are cars that I feel
are worth more. Same in audio. I buy what makes me happy. Is it worth it?
I paid more. Who cares what you other guys think. I might ask for other opinions, but 90% of the feedback will be
A: your wasting your money
B: you're not spending enough to step up
C: I really like gear different than you do, so you must suck

I spend money for what makes me happy. You do the same.
We could beat this damn horse to death all day and never agree.
Don't try to save me from myself. I don't care if you drink, smoke,
gamble or chase skirts. I don't do any of the above, so spending a little
cash on an upgrade is all I've got. I don't finace it, so it's slow going.

[dorokusai]

Just buy a boom box.

[BlueFox]

Could today's high end simply be the low end of yesterday?

I think you have that backwards. Due to technology trickle down, and other improvements, today's high end will be tomorrows low, or at least less expensive, end.

What I am waiting for is the new filter that removes digital pre-ringing currently available only in $25K (or some other awful number) CD players to be available in a $2K DAC. Of course, somebody might feel a $2K DAC is high-end.

[treitz3]

Hmmm, post #59 has sparked a bit of interest. We'll talk.

TK, what in the hell kind of question is that?

[sTiLlLeArNiNg]

Bottom line is that topology (aka design) power supply and build quality (including parts of course) are the three biggest factors that will influence the actual sound of a component. It is marketing that will put a price on that sound. Never confuse the first three points with the last one.

Excellent point! There are many determining factor's that affect the price of a given product, price does not always dictate quality ;)

Even if a piece of gear is designed/manufactured here in north america where do you think 99% of the "innard's" come from? Just a thought....

I beleive if one assemble's his/her gear properly it will provide a most pleasureable listening experience! I believe the people in the "know" reffer to it as "synnergy"? Sorry i don't really know any big, fancy audiophile word's :o I just trust my ear's :)

[janmike]

As you go down the upgrade path with gear, so too will you do this with your source material.

[reeltrouble1]

Is it this: http://www.axpona.com/


yea that is it. Axpona is a fellow named Steve Davis. He has an audio store in Bunnell Fl., near Daytona.

It would be great if we can get the local polkies to get together for this Jax thing.

RT1