Velodyne HGS12.......o man......

[mantis]

Ok ok,
I stopped by a friendly dealer today that carries it.And come to peak my attention to it,I had to give it a listen.Rotel rsp1066,rmb1075 and a pair of B&W N805's.Well at first I thought something was wrong.......no bass at all,then come to find out I was sitting in a null zone in the listening room.I stood where Liv4fam was and founf the sub to blend in beautiful........I was liking this......this I did it,freaked out the salesman by listening to the sub alone.We was taken by my freaky demo of a sub as no one he had ever seen in his life sit there and listen to a sub with no main channels or any channels playing......he didn't know what to think of me,Liv4fam just told him that I do what I do and leave me be..............well after listening to this fine sub,I had to add it to my single list of Sub's to listen to before I buy a new one......REL is my love but Velodyne just entered again from the past............Sweet sub and beautiful looking as well.

[mantis]

HUH,
I'm suprised no one is into Velodyne.O well.

[RuSsMaN]

Maybe its not Velo, maybe its something else.

[fireshoes]

I haven't the model you mentioned. WE've the CT10 and 12, and the SPL10 and 12 at my store. They are pretty nice. :)

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

I've heard some TOTL Velo, a small little bugger that cost 1,500. Tight, Accurate, Deep, Full, Loud. All that good stuff in a small box. If the price tag wasn't so out of this world it would be my next subwoofer to buy. The small size was the +++++.

[mantis]

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Maybe its not Velo, maybe its something else.
MAybe if you going to make a post like that you should state the "something else".......if not don't bother to reply.

[MichaelJ]

I spent a lot of time looking at subwoofers and ended up with a Definitive Technology SuperCube I . An excellent match for my fronts, and at 1,500watts it'l never run out of power. If you want a top quality sub that is a good match for your Polks, check it out.

[MxStYlEpOlKmAn]

Originally posted by MichaelJ
I spent a lot of time looking at subwoofers and ended up with a Definitive Technology SuperCube I . An excellent match for my fronts, and at 1,500watts it'l never run out of power. If you want a top quality sub that is a good match for your Polks, check it out.

I heard some Def Tech subwoofers, not musical at all - very boomy. Its perfect for Home Theater though.

[Dr. Spec]

Sid:

Why would a boomy, non-musical subwoofer be perfect for HT?

Mantis:

The Velo HGS series are great subwoofers - they are on my short list of recommended subs. Velodyne is coming out with a replacement for the HGS line which will have a sophisticated built-in parametric EQ which will monitor the sub's in-room FR at the listening position (with included mic) and automatically correct (to the extent possible) for peaks and nulls and provide the flattest FR possible.

[mantis]

Doc,
I thought it was going to be an add on.Huge thing I believe.To set it up,I heard they supply microphones for points in the room.Expensive also.I gotta see it.

[MichaelJ]

For several hundred dollars more, I could have gotten a Velodyne HGS, but at some point you get the best you can within your budget (and your spouse's tolerance level). The Definitive Technoloy SuperCube I that I bought for my system plays a subtle Tracy Chapman and an awesome Saving Private Ryan. Good music ... good movies ... that's what an AV system is for.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Mantis,
I heard the HGS10. That subwoofer was completely awesome for how small it was. I was expecting something terrible and small, but from that little small cube (the smallest subwoofer in the room) it had the loudest, fullest, cleanest, deepest sound out of all the subwoofers. It was amazing. 1,500 is way to steep for that little cube though.

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by MichaelJ
For several hundred dollars more, I could have gotten a Velodyne HGS, but at some point you get the best you can within your budget (and your spouse's tolerance level). The Definitive Technoloy SuperCube I that I bought for my system plays a subtle Tracy Chapman and an awesome Saving Private Ryan. Good music ... good movies ... that's what an AV system is for.

Michael:

I wasn't attacking nor necessarily supporting your choice of the DT Supercube I. I was just asking Sid why he thought boomy and non-musical was acceptable for HT.

I'm glad you like the performance of the DT SC I, and that it fits into your budget and meets your wife's approval.

Doc

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dr. Spec
[B]Sid:

Why would a boomy, non-musical subwoofer be perfect for HT?

Because its loud, it makes noise, it has low exstention. Its perfect for HT, it shakes things - bottum line. The manager even said to me (who has been in the audio business for about 30 years) that we both agreed that the Def Tech subs had their own little place in the HT department. They were very boomy and held a lot of volume and could go deep

[Dr. Spec]

HT is much more than being loud, and shaking things. I submit a boomy, "non-musical" subwoofer has no place in any application - music, HT, or otherwise.

A great sub does everything well. If it has a flat FR, low THD, deep extension, good transient response/short group delay, and a linear SPL capability across its entire entire operating range, it will sound great on everything.

A great sub will equally enhance both music and HT - that's the real bottom line.

Doc

[RuSsMaN]

Yeah, whatever Doc. Get back to us when you have '30 years experience in the audio industry'. ;) wink-wink

As if Doc knows *anything* about subs, sheesh.

Cheers,
Russ

(agreed btw, a good sub will do it all)

[rs159]

A good sub will do it all, but a lot of the same type of people who like bose and who think "5000 WATTS!!!!!!" is a sign of quality would prefer -BUTT RAPINGLY LOUD- over musical. It all depends on what your target market is and what *they* like. People like us aren't *they*, and we would probably give up an extra decibal or two to get a shorter group delay because it sounds better. But that all depends on what you call "better". My cousin thinks the speakers sound "better" in the corners because they are louder and have more bass. I think they are "better" in the location I've chosen because it has better imaging and I find corner placement fatiguing. It all depends on what "better" is.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Well let me tell you what I heard -

Def Tech Subwoofers: Loud, Boomy, Low Exstention, Deep, not full and not near accurate. 150% PERFECT for HT. Yes a good sub does it all, but this subwoofer for me, wouldnt not satisfy me for music. I would murder it and throw it out the window. Totally terrible. IMO.

Mcintosh Subwoofers: Dull, Dry, Low Exstention - Can't clip it, when you turn the system up it turns itself down. So overall for 2,000 ducks it just sucks! (and yes I meant to put ducks)

Velo HGS10: Totally effin rocked, smallest subwoofer in the showroom and the best. Loudest, deepest, DEFINTELY THE MOST ACCURATE, it was just pure musical, and had the volume to play HT. For the small size I'm sure it would pass many of your guys WAF deals. It was just a completely awesome subwoofer with a STEEP price tag 1,500.

B&W: Sounded distorted, didn't listen to it.

Overall I really liked the Velodyne HGS, But I felt it couldn't out perform my M&K in accuracy, or low exstention, more the less anything except volume. It sounded a bit deeper though, Velodyne makes nice subwoofers. However if I ever buy a new subwoofer it will definetely be SVS, I am totally CURIOUS about thoughs mofos!

RS: I think you rag on me for putting my speakers in the corner, let me comment on why I have them there. I've had my speakers all across the front wall beside the TV, and I will tell you the best I have heard it where they are now. The highs are SMOOTH, and the bass rolls off perfect and is smooth within the speakers and the subwoofers. Its a smooth placement in my opinion, nothing annoying about it. I get way better imaging this way to, I found putting them forwards that the soundstage went insane, in the corner they were a tad bit more controlled; and I liked this sound.

[rs159]

I understand what you mean MX. They have a very "purist" design that I think is inherently more efficient and just plain smarter than the tiny black boxes you can find in CC for the same price. Of course, they sell over the internet like Outlaw so the price is lower than it would be, but I think you know what I mean.

They definately look cool. I bet if you bought enough of them you could arrange them into columns and redo the theater room Roman style :lol: Definite cool factor and sky high WAF.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Originally posted by rs159
I understand what you mean MX. They have a very "purist" design that I think is inherently more efficient and just plain smarter than the tiny black boxes you can find in CC for the same price. Of course, they sell over the internet like Outlaw so the price is lower than it would be, but I think you know what I mean.

They definately look cool. I bet if you bought enough of them you could arrange them into columns and redo the theater room Roman style :lol: Definite cool factor and sky high WAF.


RS BUILD YOUR HOUSE OUT OF SVS SUBWOOFERS! HOLY SHITTE MUSLIM! YOUR NEIGHBORS WOULD LOVE YOU MAN! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[rs159]

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
RS: I think you rag on me for putting my speakers in the corner, let me comment on why I have them there. I've had my speakers all across the front wall beside the TV, and I will tell you the best I have heard it where they are now. The highs are SMOOTH, and the bass rolls off perfect and is smooth within the speakers and the subwoofers. Its a smooth placement in my opinion, nothing annoying about it. I get way better imaging this way to, I found putting them forwards that the soundstage went insane, in the corner they were a tad bit more controlled; and I liked this sound.

Actually, no personal attack on you MX. In a tiny, and especially a cubic room I understand how even though most everything is unpredictable, the one unchanging truth is that anything you put in the middle will have no bass at all. Zero, cero, none. I find that in most tiny rooms You get a better sound when the listening position is about 2 feet from the wall behind and the speakers are about 1 foot from the rear wall. No more, or they sound harsh and bright, no less becuase it gets chesty. If your speakers are in the corner and you have no choice, then putting the listening position in about the dead center of the room should sound at least remotely the same. The only problem I could see is reflections, your corner acts like a very poorly engineered horn and you get a lot of reflections from the speakers being so close to reflective surfaces. This might actually be helpful in a small room to make it sound bigger. The trick is to get stuff to sound big in a small room. Almost like voodoo, but it can be done with enough effort.

No hard feelings?

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by rs159
-BUTT RAPINGLY LOUD- It all depends on what "better" is.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Goddamn that was funny!

Like it or not, Sid is "people like us" because he frequents this forum and owns Polk.

So in the interest of advancing our agenda of knowledge sharing and higher learning, I thought it best to explain to him that the concept of a sub being "better" for music or HT is poppycock.

Your cousin simply hasn't developed his hearing to the same level of refinement you have achieved, and it is encumbant upon you to educate him as to why his point of view is "wrong" and your's is "better".

In this forum "better" is defined by what is commonly accepted and agreed upon principles, knowledge, practices, equipment, and procedures in the hi-fi and HT community - what is cutting edge or state-of-the-art, if you will.

Like progressive scan, or SACD, or hi-def TV, or Vifa tweeters, SPL meters, system calibration, and yes - what features and performance characteristics define a world class subwoofer. And "butt rapingly loud" ain't it, no matter what your cousin or any other uninformed shmoe says. We aren't concerned with "them" at Club Polk.

Doc

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Originally posted by rs159


Actually, no personal attack on you MX. In a tiny, and especially a cubic room I understand how even though most everything is unpredictable, the one unchanging truth is that anything you put in the middle will have no bass at all. Zero, cero, none. I find that in most tiny rooms You get a better sound when the listening position is about 2 feet from the wall behind and the speakers are about 1 foot from the rear wall. No more, or they sound harsh and bright, no less becuase it gets chesty. If your speakers are in the corner and you have no choice, then putting the listening position in about the dead center of the room should sound at least remotely the same. The only problem I could see is reflections, your corner acts like a very poorly engineered horn and you get a lot of reflections from the speakers being so close to reflective surfaces. This might actually be helpful in a small room to make it sound bigger. The trick is to get stuff to sound big in a small room. Almost like voodoo, but it can be done with enough effort.

No hard feelings?

No hard feelings, I have tilted, moved my speakers so they blend seamless and the soundstage is directly centered. There is a bass null on the right side of the room though, so everything sounds outta wack on the right, but on the middle/left it sounds great! When I get my own house I will be able to have more options with placement...

[rs159]

Doc, read up. I wasn't attacking Sid

[rs159]

MX, when you build your own house save yourself a lot of headaches and don't build parallel walls. The best would be a slight horn shape with the smallest wall where your TV is and the largest one holding the surrounds. Standing wave killer. You could even go crazy and build any bedrooms that might have secondary systems with ceilings that aren't perpendicular to the walls.

BTW, love the sig :lol:

[rs159]

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3



RS BUILD YOUR HOUSE OUT OF SVS SUBWOOFERS! HOLY SHITTE MUSLIM! YOUR NEIGHBORS WOULD LOVE YOU MAN! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Waaaaaaaaaa! I believe in the cross BTW ;)

The neighbors would love me, wouldn't they? Ya know, that kinda reminds me of this guy (http://members.tripod.com/~BassPig/) I'm sure most of you saw it in the two channel forum but just for shits and giggles...

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

LOL! RS, My house will be pretty normal, just will be made to make my Rig look as clean as possible.

Doc,
While I am reviewing subwoofers I will comment on something.
My subwoofer, as we have found out - is definetely not the loudest. But I will tell you one thing after listening to some high dollar subwoofers. It is by far the most accurate. I couldn't believe how my subwoofer literally SMASHED others in accuracy. The M&K does not miss a note, it does them all and keeps clean. Velodyne, is deeper, louder, but the accuracy of it just couldn't compete to the M&K. The Mcintosh was accurate, yet it STILL COULDN'T quite compete with the M&K, it was close but not as good. I plan on buying a SVS probally sometime this year, and I don't expect to slam the M&K. I expect to beat it in alot of aspects that will mean alot to me now as I like loud music, but when I grow older the M&K will suit my needs alot more. Clean, Accurate, Deep, Rich sound. This is my opinion of course, and I am not trying to start a flame war but this is what I have found and it makes me a proud owner of my M&K. No, it's no the loudest, it dosn't have the lowest exstention, but it hits down to 15-18 hz, My friend made a fr spectrum with fruity loops and it held on till it hit down to 16 hz, and I couldn't feel a thing down to 15-8hz. It may not be the deepest sounding, but it is one of the most accurate, fullest sounding subwoofers I have heard. IMO.

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by rs159
Doc, read up. I wasn't attacking Sid

I didn't think you were attacking him at all; quite the contrary, I thought you were (in a tacit sense) supporting his opinion.

My point is - it's OK to let the rest of the world stall at the "boomy and butt rapingly loud is good" stage - who cares about them. But if Sid's going to stick around, we are obligated to "bring him along" on our collective journey to better sound.

[rs159]

Doc, speaking of my cousin, to give a better idea of where he's at hi-fi wise, he disconnected his tweeters because his speakers were too bright. Those speakers, BTW are Jensen 3 way towers with 15" woofers "Because 15s are louder" :rolleyes: And talk about perfect voice mathcing, those 15" towers are paired up with one of those $100 "instant surround" sets you can get at CC that include a small center and even smaller surrounds. All this hooked up to a $400 AC3 receiver, none the less.

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
I couldn't believe how my subwoofer literally SMASHED others in accuracy.

The M&K does not miss a note, it does them all and keeps clean.

....it STILL COULDN'T quite compete with the M&K, it was close but not as good.

Clean, Accurate, Deep, Rich sound.

what I have found and it makes me a proud owner of my M&K.

.... it is one of the most accurate, fullest sounding subwoofers I have heard.

Well, Sid, you just made my point for me - thanks.

Riddle me this BatMx: Which sub would you rather have for HT - your M&K, or some "lesser" sub? I think you already know the answer, and that's all I was trying to get you to think about.

Doc

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Originally posted by rs159
Doc, speaking of my cousin, to give a better idea of where he's at hi-fi wise, he disconnected his tweeters because his speakers were too bright. Those speakers, BTW are Jensen 3 way towers with 15" woofers "Because 15s are louder" :rolleyes: And talk about perfect voice mathcing, those 15" towers are paired up with one of those $100 "instant surround" sets you can get at CC that include a small center and even smaller surrounds. All this hooked up to a $400 AC3 receiver, none the less.

To think, ya'll thought me thinking my JVC rocked was insane, now I don't feel so alone in the world. After hearing my RT35i's on seperates, only few things can solve my audio adrenaline so to speak. I must have a certain sound. A tweeter or a high quality FR is a must. An accurate midrange is a must, smooth, accurate, loud bass is a must!
Doc, it all makes sense now! HAHA! I guess you have to hear other stuff to appreciate what you have! LOL!

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by rs159
Doc, speaking of my cousin, to give a better idea of where he's at hi-fi wise, he disconnected his tweeters because his speakers were too bright. Those speakers, BTW are Jensen 3 way towers with 15" woofers "Because 15s are louder" :rolleyes: And talk about perfect voice mathcing, those 15" towers are paired up with one of those $100 "instant surround" sets you can get at CC that include a small center and even smaller surrounds. All this hooked up to a $400 AC3 receiver, none the less.

:lol: :lol:

He's beyond salvation rs - leave him to wallow in ignorant bliss.

Good on ya Sid - it all makes sense now - a good sub like your M&K does it all well - music and HT. No need to compromise for either format. We wouldn't want you running out to buy a POS sub for HT when you already have a great one upstairs that can easily serve double duty. ;)

[joe logston]

i like polk psw-650 but you got to have two they are real musical with two in stereo off your main speacker leval connection you can get them for $450 ea. for home theater add a placement sub that gose real low that connects to lfe from processor or receiver and place in the right area and you got a awesome bottem end.

[mantis]

our collective journey to better sound.

I just love that line.........

Better subs.HUH...well if a sub booms then it isn't a sub.If it doesn't go to 20hz,then it isn't a sub.

Velodyne has been the leader in sub technology for many years.They have been doing it better then just about everyone on the planet.Longer allday.
There New HGS series...well not so new.......is a fantastic line.I would put them up against anyones sub in there price class.

Rel is the only sub company that I feel is more musical.Velodyne has more force and the ability to shake the room, but REL does it with more class..........

The whole "better" thing was funny........and correct.Better is better to the person..........can become collective but personal first.........

[Dr. Spec]

Again - right there with you Dan - Velodyne does it extremely well - they are STILL the reference standard by which all other subs are measured.

That doesn't mean that Velo is the absolute best. It just means that Velo is always in the top five names that roll-off the tongue when discussing world class subs, and is always in the running when considering a purchase.

In fact, the new SVS PB2-Plus will give the big Velo HGS-18 nightmares in ALL measureable performance parameters for about half the street price of the Vel. But that's what competition is all about - the consumer is always the winner.

Regarding your comment on the musicality of any given sub - to quote a well respected designer in the sub industry:

The *musicality* of a subwoofer is dominated by several factors non related to the subwoofer at all (or related incidentally---like a built in XO). The room, the positions of the listening position and position of the subwoofer, the lowpass and highpass XOs used for both the subwoofer and the rest of the speakers, the phasing of the subwoofer relative to the rest of the speakers, and the calibration of the subwoofer.

If you are using dipolar mains, a dipolar subwoofer will also have the advantage of a like acoustical dispersion pattern.

The primary factor not related to the listening room or the setup method is simple user preference. The deepest bass has the longest soundwaves...the longer the soundwaves, the more of a bass *decay* the room will have. Deep bass takes time to decay, that is natural and inherent to the beast. Some folks mistake the longer decay for "slow" bass...when in fact, it is actually a more faithful reproduction of the source material as compared to some of the smaller *musical* subs that cannot produce clean output <30hz.

Then there is an issue of harmonics. Much of the pitch of the musical bass/drum will be determined by the number and amplitude of the harmonics of the fundametal note played. To some ears, if those harmonics are emphasized...even by a very small amount...the *pitch* of the bass guitar is made more obvious. The pacing of the bass line(s) become easier to follow...and folks can feel like that aids in the musical nature of the source playback.

So in the end, the most accurate audio reproduction may not be what someone prefers. Some folks feel a well setup (insert your preferred brand name here) is very musical, others disagree...it is largely a matter of personal preferences.

Group delay is one of those terms that oftens gets introduced in a discussion of sub musicality, but only in ignorance. In the context of sealed sub vs. ported, the 16-22hz tuning for most of the ported subs being mentioned, group delay isn't going to make an audible difference on any bass guitar, kick drum, piano...etc.

Doc

[mantis]

Doc,
Nice article clip.Ones opnion.Respected all the same.Musical subs are musical subs.Some have a blend and extremely low response,some don't.......B&W and REL.Both musical but giving the superior edge to REL.
Hey now that I'm thinking about it,have you got your REL demo on ?????

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by mantis
Doc, hey now that I'm thinking about it,have you got your REL demo on ?????

Unfortunately, no. There are no Tweeter dealers in upstate NY. Maybe that will change someday. Really, unless I brought my SVS to the dealer, or brought the REL home, it would be hard to draw valid comparisons on what I am used to for bass.

That's not saying I couldn't draw any conclusions from a REL demo. I have a bunch of DVD and music reference material that has been pretty much burned into my "mind's ear" and I could certainly bring that along.

Considering my current 20-39PC-Plus sub, it would take at least the Stentor III to impress me from a clean SPL and deep extension standpoint.

I have been looking hard at the new SVS PB2-Plus, which would be the equivalent of a Studio III on steriods - performance wise.

Here's a link to some pics and a brief description of the PB2-Plus: http://www.svsubwoofers.com/news.htm

One clear advantage: all REL ST line is furniture grade - just gorgeous. The only SVS' that compete on that front are the B4-Plus box and the SS cylinder.

Doc

[Zero]

Oh how my ass will be sore from the flaming I am about to recieve.....but I must say it.

I would love to compare the KLH 15'' to the SVS and REL line. If nothing more, than for shits and giggles.

But on a serious note, with countless hours of toying around with the box, positioning, and the cross-over.... man - for 250 bones, it sounds friggen amazing...

*Crawls back into hole* ;)

[mantis]

Doc,
Your loving the SVS subs huh.I need to get my demo on.
Finding them around her has been used only.I haven't listened to a new one.
Rel subs are advanced in my opnion due to the fact they take 2 signals at once.Speaker level balanced and line level.Having 2 volume knobs,really 2 internal preamps alltogether......sweet man.I think you would really like REL.Flexability is oof the charts.I did this one guys system that has home theater and 2 channel wired into the REL Storm III.The 2 channel system was Rotel seperates with Paradigm Studio monitors and the Home Theater was Denon and Mirage.....in the same room.The 2 channel system faced one way and the theater faced another......it was a mans room......his room.They had another theater for the entire family in the family room.This was his room.The REL was so Impressive and the customer really loved the dual role wired into 2 different systems.......he and myself thought this was extremely cool and flexable.......

Atcvenom,
gotta use what you gotta use man....KLH vs no man.I don't see it happening.You can do it............:eek:

[Ceruleance]

Going off someone said earlier, how sweet would it be to disguise several SVS designed super subs on steriods as architectural columns, marble exterior, corinthian style, the works. Im not sure how you would pull off having it downfiring without messing up the look of the column, but it would be sweet. Also, you'd have to have a house that was classy enough to pull it off, and that pretty much excludes everyone on this forum

[HBombToo]

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[Dr. Spec]

The REL dual input system is nice, however much of that flexibility can be had via the analog bass management systems found in the better DVD-A and SACD players.

Also, as you know, the Denon has the capability of lowering sub volume for the analog external bass input for DVD-A and SACD, and also has the capability of adjusting and remembering the sub level for various input modes (stereo, direct, pure direct, DD/DTS).

So much of the flexibility of the REL dual input system can be found electronically in other components (at least the good ones).

I'm all about bang for the buck and that's where SVS delivers in spades. The performance/dollar ratio is unmatched in the industry, except for DIY. The next time you are at B&K in Buffalo, look me up. I'll host a demo for you - dinner and scotch included.

Doc

[mantis]

Doc,
I'm all about bang for the buck and that's where SVS delivers in spades. The performance/dollar ratio is unmatched in the industry, except for DIY. The next time you are at B&K in Buffalo, look me up. I'll host a demo for you - dinner and scotch included.
There is no way I can refuse this offer.Next time I'm up there,I'll make it a point to look you up....Thanks bud.
:)