I do not understand Bi-Wiring

[eulogyt00l]

I just got the LSI series and I've heard some thing about "bi-wiring" Improving sound quality. And I want to try it out but I don't know how. I know the Speakers have 2 speaker wire input terminals but, I only see one hookup teminal on the back of my Denon receiver. It says on Denon's FAQ page that there are separate terminals for bi-wiring and it also says most recievers have these "seperate terminals" on Polk's faq page. So from what I understand bi-wiring is just adding another single speaker wire for the low's by using 1 pair of speaker wire on a speaker in the 2 jacks instead of just a single wire in one jack. So if I am right, my question is where is the extra wire supposed to hook up on my receiver? As you might be able to tell, I am kinda new to home theater so any and all advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[F1nut]

Welcome to the forum.

To do this right, you should first purchase speaker cable made for bi-wire applications. At the amp end of one cable it will have two wires (positive & negative) that you connect to the Pos. & Neg. posts for the right channel of the amp. At the other end of the same speaker cable will be four wires, two of which should be marked "LOW" and two of which should be marked "HIGH." You connect the "LOW" Pos. & Neg. to the bottom Pos. & Neg. posts on the speaker. You connect the "HIGH" Pos. & Neg. to the top Pos. & Neg. posts on the speaker. IMPORTANT: You must remove the jumpers between the top & bottom speaker posts before you can bi-wire. Repeat the above hook up for the left channel. You are now bi-wired. There are no special posts on the back of any amp for bi-wire connections, you use the same posts as you're using now.
If any of this is still unclear, please say so and I'll try to help.

F1

BTW, you will find that the LSi's will really sing with a "high current" amp that can drive a four ohm load.

[gidrah]

First post reward first reply. Welcome to the Forum. That appears to have the makings of a real nice system too.

Bi-wiring options:
1. You can buy pre-mad bi-wire cable that connect from your receiver in the standard fashion, but have 4 ends at the speaker side. Hook them up as idicated and you're ready to rock.
2. Use an additional pair of wires (same length), and hook both pair to your receiver as normal and one pair to each top and bottom pair of speaker terminals.
3. Connect one pair of wires from "speaker A" to the top or bottom, and the other pair from "speaker B" to the other terminal.

These are listed from 1-3 for ease of use, but 3-1 ( or #3,1,2 depending) for sound quality when "speaker B" is not being used.

[F1nut]

Mark,

If he uses the "A" & "B" set up, his receiver isn't going to like it.

[gidrah]

Why not? It's to the same speaker. His impedence isn't going to change. The only issue would be if he had separate internal amps for A & B, which Denon receivers don't have.

[F1nut]

I'm too tired to think about this anymore tonight. You might be right, I'll look into it tomorrow.

[gidrah]

Originally posted by F1nut
I'm too tired to think about this anymore tonight. You might be right, I'll look into it tomorrow.

Sissy!:lol:

[eulogyt00l]

Thanks for the warm welcome and the info guys, that makes it alot more clear for me. At least now I know I'm not losing my mind by only seeing 1 speaker jack on my receiver. I just wish I would have known about this before I bought my regular speaker wire a few weeks ago. I guess now I will have to get the bi-wire because it makes sense to me how it would improve the sound quality. By the way, which speakers are you normally supposed bi-wire? All of them, or just the front channels? Thanks again!

[RuSsMaN]

Don't do the A-B terminal crap, that's ghetto bi-amping.

[TonyPTX]

Originally posted by eulogyt00l
I just wish I would have known about this before I bought my regular speaker wire a few weeks ago. I guess now I will have to get the bi-wire because it makes sense to me how it would improve the sound quality.

You don't HAVE to buy bi-wire speaker wire. You can do what gidrah suggested and just double up two runs of regular speaker wire, lamp cord, whatever you're using, to each speaker. At one end you twist the two positives together and the two negatives together then put the positive on the positive terminal of the receiver and the negative to the negative terminal on the receiver. Then remove the jumpers on the back of the speaker as mentioned, and put each of the positive ends to the two seperate postive terminals and likewise for the negatives. Repeat for the other speakers.

As a word of caution, triple check to make sure you don't have the positives and negatives mixed up on each run or your receiver may go up in smoke like a Cheech and Chong movie.


Originally posted by eulogyt00l
By the way, which speakers are you normally supposed bi-wire? All of them, or just the front channels? Thanks again!

This is a simple one, bi-wire any of them that have two sets of terminals in the back :D

Tony

[STUFFMD]

Yea I second that Eulogyt...I started out with the same kind of wire in bi-wire situation on my 800's...and upgraded about a year or so later....that's the fun part of audio and tweeking you can always upgrade 1 piece at a time later. I have 2 different kinds of wire currently in my situation after playing around...still want to upgrade to the smoother Monster Z2 for my HF.....
It only costs money...but the beauty is you don't always have to fork it out all at once with this "Hobby".
Good luck, look forward to hearing your tweek results on the posts.
Stuff

[mantis]

Anyone catch what Denon receiver he has?????
eulogyt00l,
What Denon receiver do you have?If you have a model under the avr4802,then I would suggest upgrading the receivers before you spend money on bi wiring.Get your read on.Bi wiring has been gone over many times in here.Do a search,get a cold drink and get your read on.........after you get a basic understanding,feel free to ask away.........Lets talk about that receiver first............

[F1nut]

Alright Mark, call me a sissy will ya. Ha, take that...http://www.clicksmilie.de/sammlung/sauer/angry-smiley-038.gif......lol.

Now, back to the topic. Running A/B together, it seems to me that the impedance of the high pass and the low pass would act the same as if you were driving two sets of speakers. Something that receiver isn't going to like. Any EE out there want to chime in?

I still say to do it right, use pre-made bi-wire cable. The rest of it is just, well....ghetto (thanks Russ) bi-wiring.

[Frank Z]

Here's a good read for anyone that may be interested.
http://www.sonicdesign.se/biwire.html

[eulogyt00l]

Great info guys, you have all truely been a big help with my wiring illeteracy. TonyPTX I am using the Monster THX1000 so doubling it up on the receiver end would be kinda unpractical (because they are huge and floppy at the ends) but thanks for answering my question and being very clear cut I didn't get all the A+B stuff at first. So I guess I will just bite the bullet and get some bi-wire but I don't think I will go with Monster this time because their bi-wire is at least $150-$700 A PAIR!! So if you guys have any suggestions on good quality speaker wire I would appreciate it. My amp is the Denon 5803.

[danger boy]

i suggest you shop on ebay for wires/cables. I bought a 15' pair of Monster Z2 biwires for $106 and they are new too. they usually run between $199 to $275. not to shabby huh?

There are great deals to be had on those online auctions.. you just have to be patient and then snipe someone to get the best deals.

[mantis]

Originally posted by eulogyt00l
Great info guys, you have all truely been a big help with my wiring illeteracy. TonyPTX I am using the Monster THX1000 so doubling it up on the receiver end would be kinda unpractical (because they are huge and floppy at the ends) but thanks for answering my question and being very clear cut I didn't get all the A+B stuff at first. So I guess I will just bite the bullet and get some bi-wire but I don't think I will go with Monster this time because their bi-wire is at least $150-$700 A PAIR!! So if you guys have any suggestions on good quality speaker wire I would appreciate it. My amp is the Denon 5803.
What do you mean when you said monster bi wires where 150 to 700 a pair????Is that 2 much for speaker wires????
So far I see a 4300.00 receiver,Lsi speakers.Matching higher end wire would be in order.Wire I would suggest would be the Monster M1.4s bi wires for Front 3.Rears for max performance you could buy M1.4s bulk.If all rears are going to be ran in small(which is what I'm thinking here with a 60hz crossover setting)You could get away with MCX bi wire bulk for the rears....but thats totally up to how you feel about quality wire........There are many many brands out there,they all sound different.Finding the cables that will benefit your system is the hard part.

[eulogyt00l]

Mantis I know its expensive gear but call me old fashioned when I think, that much money is ridiculous for wire. I mean last time I upgraded my home theater back in like 1995 speaker wire was dirt cheap. But I guess things change. Anyway I am now considering the Monster z2 because I have been seeing some good deals on Ebay. But I am unsure weather to go with the z2 or make the jump to the M2.4 for the fronts. I noticed Danger Boy said is using the Z2 and Mantis recomended the Mseries. Do you guys think the Mseries would be better for my setup than the Z2's? And one more question. Is there bi-wire that is actually long enough for to reach the surrounds? Because in particular on Monster's site they only go 15' max. So would I have to buy multiple pairs, or what?

[F1nut]

IMHO, bi-wire the fronts and single-wire the rears. I highly recommend MIT cables. Get the best you can afford.

[eulogyt00l]

Thanks for the advice F1nut. I never even heard of MIT, but I did a google search and found their site and they look like they have some nice cables. I'll have to check them out, although I am kinda partial to monster since I've been dealing with them for awhile now. I still am undecided on the z2 or M2.4's and now MIT ad's another alternative.

[F1nut]

I use to run Monster until I discovered MIT. Currently I am running MIT MH-750 Shotguns (bi-wire), but MIT has replaced that model with a updated verison. Look here, http://ecom3.aspre.net/cgi-bin/TheCableCompany.storefront/
and here, http://www.audiogon.com/ for good deals on used cable. Also, Transparent and Kimber make nice wires too.

[eulogyt00l]

Awesome, and they have probably been burned in already. I will definetely keep checking those sites, I was looking for an alternative to Ebay.

[mantis]

eulogyt00l
you can buy M1.4s in bulk.M2.4s you cannot buy in bulk as far as I know.
Bulk means a spool of it or the amount you would need.You can go down to Tweeter in your area and order a spool,or buy a spool and use what you need,and see if they will return the unused amount.They do it with all other bulk wire......

[RuSsMaN]

Thats cool, that they might let you return the unused portion.

Cheers,
Rooster

[mantis]

I never saw anyone return M1.4s in bulk,but then again I don't work in the store.Most people(and very few)that wire there own houses,will buy a spool and we allow them to return the unused amount.I don't really see why M1.4s would be any different other then it's a order only Item.

[eulogyt00l]

Thats cool. I might try and do that. But I found a very interesting website, you guys outta check out. These people claim their cables can outdo a $17,000 pair of MIT Oracles. I am very tempted to try them. They aren't that expensive at all either. Here's a link.
http://www.the-music-cable.com

[danger boy]

wow.. yeah their prices aren't that high actually. Why would anyone spend $15,000+ on cables? Really, when you break it down and think about it all. cables are just wires.. yeah some claim to have a special mix of 99.9% silver.. but does that reallly cost $15,000?

I believe that good cables do improve your sound quality. but if you have a weak or so so source and a weak amp.. those expensive cables aren't going to do anything more than amplify the weaknesses in your system.

that's my take on the whole overpriced cables thing. I don't use entry level cables on my system... but i also don't see the benefits of cables that pricey.

Al

[F1nut]

That's a mighty big claim, but who knows! I could see them besting some MIT Terminator 5's (entry level), but Oracles?!? Since they have been around awhile now, how come none of the A/V rags haven't reviewed them? Maybe you've found something, if you get them, please post a review.

DB,

Yeah, $15,000 is hard to take, but there is magic in those MIT boxes. I don't know about $15,000 worth, but magic none the less.

[Pablo]

I'm also interested in how (and if) to bi-wire. But after reading this thread I am still confused. I'm fairly new to a nice system, and want to hook it up correctly, but don't nessecarily need to go out of control.

Somewhere in here it says to run 2 sets of wires from the output on the reciever to each of the inputs on the speakers. If run 2 sets of cable from the same outputs, isn't that the same as just jumping them at the speaker inputs anyway?

denon avr-3802
rti-70 fronts
fxi-30 surrounds
panasonic wfx95pt56 hdtv (also used for center)
(still on the list: another set fxi-30 -rears, psw404 sub)

P.S. $15,000 for cables?!?!? Unless you have money comming out the wazoo, and spend 10x that amount each component, your out of your mind. Either way, unless you have had dog's ears surgically implanted in your head, you're not going to hear much of a difference. Human hearing is one of the worst set of ears on the planet.

[F1nut]

Originally posted by Pablo
If run 2 sets of cable from the same outputs, isn't that the same as just jumping them at the speaker inputs anyway?

No, because when you bi-wire, the high and low pass are seperate.


you're not going to hear much of a difference.

If you have the chance, go demo some high-end wires and then see if you still think the same.




Human hearing is one of the worst set of ears on the planet.

True....:(


BTW, welcome to the forum.

[eulogyt00l]

Basically Pablo, from the vast experience I now have in bi-wiring (lol) thanks to my new audiophile board buds. Your speakers must have 2 different + & - speaker wire terminals (one for the low freq. and one for the high freq.) and alot of speakers (especially high end) do. Then the easiest and probably best way to wire them is to just get bi-wire speaker wire, which has one regular + & - wire at the receiver end and of course two + & - wires at the speaker end to go in the extra terminal. I hope this clears it up some and I hope I am pretty much on the money. But I'm obviously not a Polkie or Polk Expert or Polkazoid like everyone else so guys feel free to correct me if any of what I said is inaccurate.

[F1nut]

I think you've got the bi-wire basics down and it's good of you to turn around and help someone else. That's what it's all about (and you do the hooky-pooky, that's what it's all about....never mind, I'm doing my taxes, the mind has gone), but just one thing to correct. You are a Polkie!

F1......out

[eulogyt00l]

Your right F1nut I guess I am a Polkie. I though it was funny and ironic that I now try to help others in the same thread I made with the same problem.

Have fun with your taxes....I know I did. My mind was gone too. And I still haven't got it all back yet!

[gidrah]

I just built a pair of these. While still being broken in I can honestly say that unless I get a MAJOR windfall, I will never buy another speaker cable again. They sound much better than my 13 AWG silver coated, teflon wrapped, ...., speaker wires. With the silver my bass dropped way off. It tightened up and was about as deep as Monster Superflex (15 yrs old), but the CAT5e has the highs and lows.

BTW: I just went to the Midwest Audio Fest in Lima OH. I was surprised and yet releaved to not see too many big name manufacturers. There's something about $4K speakers with no-name speaker wire that makes me smile.

[TonyPTX]

Originally posted by gidrah
but the CAT5e has the highs and lows.


Did you build a pair of CAT 5 speaker leads? If so, I'm kinda curious about them. I've seen the DIY Cat5 wires and was tempting to try them out myself before I spend some money on the real stuff. Post some picts....

[Tour2ma]

eulogyt00l,

Welcome... all I can say is you picked a hell of a topic to kick off your Club Polk experience. Run thread title searches on "wire" and "bi-wire" sometime and you'll see what I mean. Definite "high wire" and "low wire" camps round here. There are also Bi-wire, bi-amp and bridged amp factions.

My advice... walk before you run, i.e., don't spend too much on wire right out of the box. I splurged on a 500' roll of Woods wire at Home Depot a while back for my HT construction. I'll play with higher-end someday, but not a priority for me just yet. I've got interconnects to upgrade first. A bit surprised no one mentioned www.signalcable.com to you.

BTW are you "Eulogy-Tool" or other?

F1,
All right taxes are over Bud. I can only imagine the task it presents for the self-employed (mailed mine at 15:30 today as well)... Now think about how an amp could possibly tell the difference between a bi-wire run that starts at a speaker selector switch vs a common pair of output terminals. ;)

[eulogyt00l]

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Tour2ma

"BTW are you "Eulogy-Tool" or other?"

Thats right Tour2ma, Tool is my favorite band and Eulogy is one of their songs. And since Tool is always a name thats already taken on boards I just use eulogytool.

I didn't even know about the forum search until just recently. But this topic seems to be helping others as well as me so I am glad I made it.

I think I am going to try that cable out that I found. The "musical cable". It's not that expensive and for what it's claiming, it has to be at least a good entry level cable. Although I really have my doubts about it sounding better than that $15,000 MIT oracle cable. But I am going to try it. When I do get it and try it out for a few days I will be sure to post a little review on my opinion of it. So if it's good or if it sounds like crap, people will know.

[Tour2ma]

Great.... we'll look forward to your review...

[gidrah]

Sorry, no camera Tony. Here's a link to the ones I built though.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/triple_t_e.html

[mantis]

Pablo,
quick and dirty man.Go out and buy a pair of MCX bi wires from Tweeter or any other close retailer in your area.This is the best way to learn more about bi wiring.Don't make your own.Buy premade.Once you get the Idea,play for awhile,and you feel you can now make better bi wires then the actual wire companies,then my all means.

Bi wiring is a simple concept once you dig into it.Sound quality inprovement I have heard everything I have bi wired my speakers.

SO I believe this is your answer instead of getting more confused,get out and buy a pair.Have fun ,listen and report back your findings and ask away.......

[Pablo]

Thanks for all the replies. From what I get out of this, I think I will go and buy a pair of bi-wires and hook them up.

[Tour2ma]

And thus another is lost to the "dark-side"...
http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung/starwars/star-wars-smiley-007.gif

[VR3]

Isn't this a way to bi-wire? I think Dr. Spec uses this method....i dunno.. :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Tour2ma]

Sid,
Strickly speaking, no. Your schematic is not bi-wiring. In bi-wiring you run completely separate runs are made from the amp outputs to the two-pairs of speaker posts and the jumpers are removed.
Doc was just replacing the stock jumper "buses" on his f/x 1000's with wire. He noted an improvement when he did this.

[VR3]

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Sid,
Strickly speaking, no. Your schematic is not bi-wiring. In bi-wiring you run completely separate runs are made from the amp outputs to the two-pairs of speaker posts and the jumpers are removed.
Doc was just replacing the stock jumper "buses" on his f/x 1000's with wire. He noted an improvement when he did this.

can you do this?

[VR3]

well darnit.....

[Tour2ma]

Yes, where you terminate the runs on the posts does not matter.

[mantis]

Nice home made pic's.How about more detail and some brand names.How about some WBT connectors,draw the back of the speaker and amp..........lets get real detailed shaw we.......

[VR3]

Originally posted by mantis
Nice home made pic's.How about more detail and some brand names.How about some WBT connectors,draw the back of the speaker and amp..........lets get real detailed shaw we.......

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[mantis]

OK here's an oldie but goodie.

[mantis]

that was cool, I'll try again

[VR3]

I like mine better......