Turntable Plunge

[dcarlson]

I'm getting very close to buying a turntable. I want to start with something cheap and save up for a Rega P3 later this year. I'm wondering how the older Thorens turntables stack up. There's a few on Ebay that I'm thinking about bidding on TD-145, TD-160, TD-165. Any ideas on these models? Are they worth buying? I'm pretty new when it comes to turntables so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Derick.

[RuSsMaN]

I have limited experience with Thorens tables, they are a nice table, but what worries me more is you having one shipped to you.

I'd check you local options first, then budget tables that can be shipped from a dealer. CD players and TT's are TWO things I will not have shipped to me, unless I know the seller. Too fragile, too many things that need to stay 'aligned'.

Cheers,
Russ

[dcarlson]

I'm worried about shipping too but for $100-$150 I can get a vintage TT and hope for the best. There's not much in my city in regards to vinyl or turtables. I made the rounds to local hock shops with no results. Locally is out of the question unless I go new.

Derick.

[Wade Spradley]

Yeah, I agree, check your local pawn shops and thrift stores. You never know what will turn up. Ebay is nice for solid stuff, but be careful about anything that would be a bit fragile no matter how well it is packed. UPS and USPS, are not the most careful when it comes to packages. If you do , then make sure it is insured. Just my two cents.

[bsmith15]

Dcarlson:

I do not know where you are in Canada, but if you go to audiogon.com, to the left of the search bar is an options link. Click it and enter the first three numbers of your postal code in the search by zip code area. It will show all items listed on Audiogon in and around your postal code for sale. A long shot, but depending where you are you may find a TT that you could pick up. Takes the shipping problem out of the purchase.

[dcarlson]

Excellent, thanks.

Shipping is pretty bad. At work in the last 2 months it seems most of our computer equipment boxes have been busted. A couple pretty badly. Luckily, no damage yet. Damn Purolator.

Derick.

[Tour2ma]

dc,

I have purchased several AR XA's and one XB, and a couple Thorens and Duals over the past four months on ebay. Only two tables arrived with any damage (dust cover of one AR shipped USPS and dropped bearing on a Dual shipped UPS).

I have some packing instructions I'll e-mail you, if you reply to the e-mail I just sent you through the Club. Have a set for the AR's and one for Dual's (Thorens are close to Dual).

Any TT needs alignment tweaking at set up, as they should only be shipped disassembled. Obviously it therefore helps to get the instruction set with the TT.

Last tip is insist on FedEx ground. And always insure.

One of the Thorens I bought is a choice TD-160. Fellow did a great job of packing it. Will be setting it up this week and will give you a review. I own a TD-320 that I think is a damn nice TT, but have only seen a couple of these on ebay.

[dcarlson]

That would be excellent. I'm actually going to bid on a TD-160 today. What sort of price should I be looking at paying? The table looks like it's in really nice shape except the dust cover's hinge is busted no cracks in it though.

It seems they're going for about $100.

Derick.

[dcarlson]

Well, I won the bidding. Here's a link to it. I've never bought anything from Ebay before. Anyone have any tips?

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3283&item=3020000918&rd=1

[Tour2ma]

Looks like a nice TT. Worthy of note is that the 160 copied AR's suspension isolation design. Should be very quiet. Cartridge or stylus may need replacing before you entrust your new DSOTM vinyl to it.

As for ebay, get an estimate of the shipping cost (estimate 35# and 24x18x16" box) and use the e-mail ebay sent you announcing your win to send the total you think is fair to the Seller (include insurance and throw in an extra buck or two for packaging materials).

In the e-mail ask the seller for his packing plan and state that you want to agree on the packaging before you post payment. If the Seller says he does not have a plan, offer him one from the info I sent you. I'll be happy to review his plan and help generate one more specific to the 160, if you'd like.

Good going on your win. Quite a rush wasn't it?However, we have to work on your sniping a bit... your bid was in a whole 90 seconds before the end of auction... ;)

[dcarlson]

Tourma, thanks for all your help. I asked him if was going to disassemble it before shipping, we'll see. I was expecting to replace the cartridge, no big deal.


However, we have to work on your sniping a bit... your bid was in a whole 90 seconds before the end of auction...

Was that bad ebay etiquette? Whoops, I see that happen pretty often. It was actually about an hour before the end. It was pretty cool, I've been looking for a TT for a few weeks, I bid on a couple of Duals. I even won a bid but didn't meet the reserve. I'm happy about this one though. :D

[Tour2ma]

Actually I was commenting that you bid too early... :D

Sniping is perfectly legal. Hardly see an auction that does not involve it... at least none that I am involved in ;)

[dcarlson]

Tour,

Do you have any suggestions on a cartridge that would mate well with the Thorens TD-160? I went on the Shure website the M97xE would probably be the most expensive I would go at $140. I'm still very new at this analog stuff so any suggestions would be welcomed.

Derick.

[Tour2ma]

dc,

For MM cartridges I've mostly been a Shure man myself, about 4 from the M91ED to the V15 typeV. But check out Grado as well. They are still going strong after many years and have a great rep.

TBH, I just am not up to date with enough current models to make a specific rec with any confidence. Suggest you check out some of the review sites to see what they might offer you. Like at
http://www.audioreview.com/defaultcrx.aspx

Also go here to shop: http://www.needledoctor.com/showcat.cfm?catnum=2&parentcatnum=0 Needle Doc has been in the retail cartridge biz forever and have the Shure you listed for $99.

Another good source is AudioAdvisor at http://www.audioadvisor.com/ . They have the Shure SG-2 stylus gauge for $20... nice little accessory to have.

[dcarlson]

Right on, Thanks.

[Tour2ma]

Bump...

[dcarlson]

Ya, I don't have much to say just yet. The table should be in Monday, I hope. I'll have some questions then, I'm sure.

Derick.

[Tour2ma]

No prob's... Are you getting a manual with the 160?

If not, e-mail me an addy and I'll mail you a copy.

[dcarlson]

Thanks, I don't think there's a manual but the ebay dude posted a website. Good for a bunch of Thorens stuff.

http://www.theanalogdept.com/index.html

[dcarlson]

Well, bedtime for me. I'll be dreaming of naked women on turtables tonight...

[dcarlson]

I almost forgot...on couches too.

[dcarlson]

Tour,

I'm expecting the Thorens tomorrow, anything I should check before plopping a record on?

[Tour2ma]

dc,
All moving parts should be cleaned and lubed. Manual should call out the points to attend to. Sewing machine oil works well and should be available locally. Thorens sells oil as well. All parts should move freely and free of noise, i.e., plate spin, tone arm up and down and side to side.

Manual should have all the basic set-up steps: cartridge alignment and overhang, balancing the arm after headshell and cartridge are in place, and setting the tracking force and anti-skate. The tone arm length should be factory set, so no adjustment there.

Remember that the force and anti-skate settings on the tone arm are approximations. That’s why I recommended the Shure stylus gauge as a useful extra. If you don’t have, go ¼ gram above minimum for your stylus and assume the arm is telling you the truth for now, but get one. One went on ebay tonite for $12.

Other stuff off the top of my head:
Anti-skate - a Shure test record is about the best thing going, but likely not available to you. Any good old mono recording can also be used, but stereo can work as well. Headphones help here. Check for equal sound and noise levels through both channels. Too high a setting will produce added distortion in one channel; too low will in the other. Should be able to find a point mid-way between where distortion starts in each channel that will do you (kind of like tuning in a station on an old, analog radio).
Leveling – set a 6” level on the platter and be sure you’re on bubble in all directions.
Isolation – as another member found, an open bookshelf is not a good place for a TT; the shelf accumulates sound and feeds it right back to the TT; even a good one. He used an old carpet sample to isolate his TT.

Lastly, play an old album first at very low volume. Volume down in case of a ground fault. And old album to be sure all goes smoothly. Don’t risk your new and/ or best vinyl on a first play as much as we love that special moment.

Oh, and don't do the above while watching hockey... ;)

[dcarlson]

Oh, and don't do the above while watching hockey...

But it's the playoffs...

Thanks, I'll let you know how it goes.

[dcarlson]

Tour,

Finally, the Thorens came in. The dude shipped on friday, a full week and a half after I won the auction. Oh well, at least it's here undamaged. :D

Sounds good but I know it can sound so much better. I put one of my most scratched records on (just in case) and was off runnin.

I'll take it apart this weekend at give it a good cleaning.

The interconnects are original and oxidized. It has a Shure M44-7 cartridge.

My plan is to change the cabling and the cartridge. What do think?

Derick.

[Tour2ma]

dc,
Glad to see you're underway.
M44-7… an old puppy. Yup, replace, but keep it. Someday you might get a second headshell and use it for older vinyl.
I agree on replacing the cables. I think you are looking at standard RCA jacks under the TT…. Yes? You can do so with a TT cable or good pair of MC’s, or whatever you like. Emphasis here is on shielding since cartridge output is so very, very low. If you go with standard IC’s, you can run a third, grounding wire in parallel to the IC’s. Any light gauge wire will do.
Also look at upgrading the TT’s output jacks to gold plated. The originals may be corroded as well. Shouldn’t be difficult…

[dcarlson]

I'm going to open it up tonight and see what's in there. I did a search on that shure cartridge and I guess it's great for DJ scratching. That's weird. :confused:

Once I open it up and figure out where start I'll have a few more questions I'm sure.

Derick.

[madmax]

Congrats on the new table! Let us know how it TURNS out. Does it have a replaceable tone arm or is it a standard brand one? Just wondering.
madmax

[dcarlson]

Well, I took a look under the hood.

The RCAs are clipped into place sort of inline with the tonearm cables. I was very tempted to simply cut off the corroded plugs and replace. But instead I'm using my utmost patience not to. I want to replace the interconnects.

Does the wire effect the sound as much as it does for a CD player IC or will any wire do? Where should I go from here? Brands & examples maybe.

I'm also going to look for a new cart this weekend. And it all begins......

[dcarlson]

Congrats on the new table! Let us know how it TURNS out. Does it have a replaceable tone arm or is it a standard brand one? Just wondering.

Madmax, thanks man.

It's been a long time coming, it sounds good but I know this is only the start. I'm sure there's a possibility it's going to sound better than my Rotel CD player.

Here's a pic of the same tonearm. (not my pic)

Notice the white plastic thing in the middle. I need to know what type of interconnect to get that goes after that.

[dcarlson]

I forgot. ;) I imagine I can replace the tonearm. It does come right out.

Derick.

[Tour2ma]

dc,

Installing the tone arm is not biggie. Should fit right into slot in the plinth and screws hold it in place. The cable’s loop attaches to drive mechanism to lift arm at end of play.

The RCA’s in the pic look to be shiny gold plated, but if they look corroded to you, yeah, replace them. Since the bar does not have RCA’s on it, darn, it’ll be a little more involved, but still easy to do. Are the terminals on the bar screwed or soldered?What I don’t see is a grounding wire running in parallel to the IC leads… unusual… We’ll address that later if necessary.

If the cable is decent looking, consider just replacing the RCA plugs. Radio Shack or HD carries replacements.

If you want to replace the cable as well:
On the tone arm IC's, should be four connections to the white junction bar: R, RG, L, and LG, where “G” is ground. Be sure they are marked.
NOTE: BE very careful handling this junction bar, the tone arm leads attached to it are very light, often single wires to keep the mass low, and are fairly fragile.
Note how the existing cable is terminated both the leads and the shielding. You’ll reproduce this arrangement with the new cable.

You can use any IC you want. Gauge thickness will vary, but the terminating will be the same. It’s probably best to by a pre-made cable in the length you’ll need and snip the RCA’s off of one end. Might be good idea to practice preparing the cable in the picture as if you were going to reattach it, before you hack into your new cable. What you’ll see is a mini-coax cable, just like the cable runs in your house, just downsized.

Don’t know what else to say for now. Ask away when you have more questions.

[HBombToo]

quick hi-jack here.

has any1 looked at the digital denon turntable? it gives a PCM 44.1 khz output jack for recording. Thats pretty cool IMO!

Twin

[Tour2ma]

dc,
Did find these...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3024900962&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1
Quality unknown, but reads OK.

One's on needledoctor were >$100. That's why I said make your own...

HB,
Cool factor yes, but need factor? Analog signal path is shortened vs. rounting to Digital pre/pro or PC, but not sure the loss is significant enough to warrant an ADC in a TT.

That said, gotta link? ;)

[dcarlson]

I actually pulled that pick off another web site.

My plugs aren't gold plated, as far as I can see they're the originals from the 70s and very badly corroded. If I had digital camera I would take a pic.

Long weekend, I'll have some time to mess around.

What's weird is I didn't find a ground cable, just R/L plugs.

[dcarlson]

Ok, I replaced the interconnects yesterday. There was a moderate improvement, nothing too special. I used an old RCA interconnect I had lying around. I used to use it on my CDP and it has a slight muffled quality to it. I may install some RCA plugs on the TT so i can experiment with cables without making it a big soldering job.

The ground is connected to the subplatter.

Gonna look for a new cart today.

Boy, patience really comes into play with analog stuff. So much to do. Once I'm there it'll all be worth it though. :D

Derick.

[HBombToo]

Originally posted by Tour2ma


HB,
Cool factor yes, but need factor? Analog signal path is shortened vs. rounting to Digital pre/pro or PC, but not sure the loss is significant enough to warrant an ADC in a TT.

That said, gotta link? ;)

I did not think there would be much interest from a purist standpoint so I was just asking for opinions.

http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?stk_code=dendpdj151

This thing is so damn neet I can't stop thinking about it... The denon model "DP-DJ151" gives a redbook digital out for recording or I could actually pipe it into my DAC if I want. With both options, digital and analog I could have the best of both worlds really mixing new with the old.

Just a thought.

HBomb