Cable comparison data

[BlueFox]

One thing I have found missing from all the speaker cable threads is data. Generally, there is some from those who feel cables do matter, but little from the other side. The positive data is usually from a personal experience. While this data is subjective, it still is valid. Personal experience can reflect measurements, especially if you know what to measure.

Being an engineer, I like data about a subject. I am also open-minded, so that data can take any reasonable form, as long as it is verifiable. For this subject, personal experience is the preferred data.

On one hand, I do not care what someone listens to, or what equipment they use. On the other hand, I do care when someone tries to tell me I am wrong in some personal activity, and their reason is they read it somewhere. And that is the impression I am getting from the “cables make no difference” crowd. They read it somewhere. Fine, there is nothing wrong with reading. That is how I usually learn something. I read about it, think about it, and if it seems reasonable try it.

What I am looking for with this thread is for those who feel speaker cables make no difference tell to us what cables they tried, the electronics used, any other thoughts they had while comparing the cables.

So, in the interest of science, tell us the cables used to reach the conclusion, “Cables make no difference”. Nothing more, nothing less. Just some data about what speaker cables were compared that resulted in the conclusion cables make no difference.

[hearingimpared]

Good luck on getting any of that information from them.

[Matt34]

Unless the comparisons are conducted unsighted I have very little interest in them. You have to remove the human bias factor and there is plenty out there to back that statement. It's really the bottom line in comparing two different products, weather it's cables, amps or sodas.

As an engineer I hope you can appericate that there is some science involved in this hobby.

I'll be the first to admit this is a very subjective hobby but when people throw science out of the way because they don't like what they might find it hurts the hobby by perpetuating false claims even if the reviewer thinks he/she was impartial.

[hearingimpared]

Unless the comparisons are conducted unsighted I have very little interest in them. You have to remove the human bias factor and there is plenty out there to back that statement. It's really the bottom line in comparing two different products, weather it's cables, amps or sodas.

As an engineer I hope you can appericate that there is some science involved in this hobby.

I'll be the first to admit this is a very subjective hobby but when people throw science out of the way because they don't like what they might find it hurts the hobby by perpetuating false claims even if the reviewer thinks he/she was impartial.

I do, but I hate when these guys spew their "cables don't matter" mantra then post a bunch of links to back them up without having any experience themselves and the topper, totally disregard and dismiss the scientific evidence that DarqueKnight posts as "voo doo" science. He's a Phd in EE and gives very well thought out very detailed measurements with his posts regarding the topic at hand.

BTW Matt are you going to do what the OP asks and post up some of the power cords, ICs, and speaker wire you've tried in your rig?

[steveinaz]

Being a fact lover myself--and not believing in much I can't experience first hand, I was very skeptical years ago about the idea of cables making a difference. I stumbled onto this discovery by accident, simply wanting something better built than the 99 cent IC's that came with components back in the day. Our PX in Germany had a huge sale on all kinds of audio stuff, and a big fat beefy set of Audio Tecnica RCA cables with gold plated connectors were marked down significantly. I decided, what the heck, and bought enough pairs to rewire my system. I was not only impressed---but shocked by the improvement. I didn't expect there to be any sonic benefit, just piece of mind knowing I was running a better quality built cable.

Nay sayers always point to "science"....well, here's some science for you; wire is like any other resisitor or inductor--resistance, capacitance, impedance---can all effect frequency levels throughout the spectrum. This is well known and documented. Therefore, how is it so hard to understand that a different cable can impact sonic properties?

Here's an experiment even the most skeptical can do to illustrate my point. Providing your system has the resolution; replace your 75ohm spec'd digital cable and try a variety of regular analog IC's as a digital cable from your transport to your DAC or AVR--some will make little difference, some will be extrememly different. I tried a Kimber Hero analog IC as a digital cable, it was aweful. Fat, bloaty bass; spitty treble, and a subdued midrange. If copper is copper, how could this be?

[steveinaz]

Let's address the "placebo effect" next, a popular argument. Does the placebo effect sometimes have an effect? Sure it does, I don't dismiss it's existence--and peoples' ability to get caught up in it. But a key for placebo effect to take place is that the psychology has to be there to support it; you have to be expecting or wanting a change to occur. When you look at my example in the first post, I wasn't expecting nor wanting a change to occur, I simply wanted better build--so how could placebo be a factor when it wasn't an expectation?

Another element, I'm a cheap-ass. Believe me when I tell you that if $1.50 IC's sounded the same as $285 IC's---I'd be buck-fiftying it all night long. So where's the psychological "setup" that could lead to me being a victim of placebo effect in that scenario?

Having said that, I have tried cables that made no difference from the ones they replaced, as well as cables that did make a difference. IMO, many people overstate these benefits by using words such as "huge difference" "incredible bass" "far better" "substantial improvement" when I think in reality, cable differences are rather subtle---of course YMMV. Some even suggest changing cables as a troubleshooting measure when someone complains about how their system sounds---I think this is over-the-top; if your system sounds bad, a simple cable change is like throwing bricks in the Grand Canyon; it isn't going to help, there's a bigger problem with that system. Again, all my opinion, based on my experiences.

[mdaudioguy]

Is it possible to measure or quantify the perceived separation of sounds that most people report - i.e. the concept of a sound stage, with various instruments and sounds dispersed across a seemingly wider area than one might expect two speakers to be able to project?

Stereo sound has always been fascinating to me, going all the way back to my late 1970s Soundesign "system." As my equipment has improved, so to has my perceived sound stage. Or, maybe it's just my imagination, like a placebo... Anyhow, I'm preparing to try out some better ICs than the Radio Shack specials I'm currently using (one set is actually a 3-wire composite video cable :o), and I'm prepared to imagine a perceived improvement. Who cares if I can't measure it? ;)

[steveinaz]

Well, it requires thinking outside of the box. I certainly notice a hazy, out of focus soundstage with typical cheap multi-strand speaker wire; even with my significant hearing loss in the left ear.

Can I explain why this happens?---hell no; I just know it does, and that's all that matters.

[Keiko]

It's all your fault I have much better cables in my rig now, Steve. ;)

Few years ago, I thought along the same lines. Those thicker cables with the fancy connectors sure would look nicer on my gear. They'd also last longer than them cheap 99 cent OEM cables that are prone to failure. Had no idea at the time really of what sonic improvements awaited me. Maybe some can't hear the change, good on them, nothing wrong with that. This is something that has been pointed out before; save the $$$ to put elsewhere in the system where you can hear it. But don't tell me cables don't make any difference. They do because I can hear the difference.

[mdaudioguy]

Well, it requires thinking outside of the box. I certainly notice a hazy, out of focus soundstage with typical cheap multi-strand speaker wire; even with my significant hearing loss in the left ear.

Can I explain why this happens?---hell no; I just know it does, and that's all that matters.
My take on it is that it can never be known exactly how anyone perceives anything. All the processing is done internally in the brain. Let's say we both walk into a room and notice a red chair. Can I be sure that you perceive that particular shade of red in exactly the same way that I do? No. Perhaps it's significantly darker than the red chair you have in your house or subtly lighter than the one I have in mine. And then, another person enters the room and says, "Hey, that's a red chair, exactly like the ones you guys have." Make sense? Some people can discriminate differences and some cannot, while others possibly can too, but choose not to. They just buy the cheapest red chair they can find, but for some reason, they feel the need to tell everyone else who paid more for a red chair they really liked, that they paid too much for it... In real life, I usually just ignore those types, but on here, they can be a distraction.

[steveinaz]

Agree, good points. I think we forget about physiological differences as well, such as the shape of the outer ear. Someone that has ears the point forward would be more sensitive to treble/midrange---and likely would prefer a more laid back speaker; where someone with ears that are flatter to the head might want more top-end extension. There's tons of variables at play, that's why its always best to follow your ears, and not someone elses.

[hearingimpared]

Agree, good points. I think we forget about physiological differences as well, such as the shape of the outer ear. Someone that has ears the point forward would be more sensitive to treble/midrange---and likely would prefer a more laid back speaker; where someone with ears that are flatter to the head might want more top-end extension. There's tons of variables at play, that's why its always best to follow your ears, and not someone elses.

Great point Steve. I have a little jig I made to forced my bad ear forward to equalize the difference in hearing between my two ears.

AND NO IT IS NOT THE ONES CANDYLIQUOR MADE!:D;)

[heiney9]

What I am looking for with this thread is for those who feel speaker cables make no difference tell to us what cables they tried, the electronics used, any other thoughts they had while comparing the cables.

So, in the interest of science, tell us the cables used to reach the conclusion, “Cables make no difference”. Nothing more, nothing less. Just some data about what speaker cables were compared that resulted in the conclusion cables make no difference.

Those people will dance around these questions and use every analogy and description and link to tell you why cables don;t matter. All of the evidence will be 2nd hand and never from their own first hand experiences.

Good luck

H9

[DSkip]

Agree, good points. I think we forget about physiological differences as well, such as the shape of the outer ear. Someone that has ears the point forward would be more sensitive to treble/midrange---and likely would prefer a more laid back speaker; where someone with ears that are flatter to the head might want more top-end extension. There's tons of variables at play, that's why its always best to follow your ears, and not someone elses.

TY for that. I never thought in detail how the anatomy of the ear plays into it. Never even crossed my mind.

Makes sense to me now how my friend (who has ears like will smith) always thinks my setup is too bright, yet it sounds great to me.

[madmax]

I've seen people post data they obtained with different cables. The problem is the data is only as good as the equipment used to obtain it. Going through a sound card on a computer is not likely to show differences in high end cables.
madmax

[BlueFox]

Those people will dance around these questions and use every analogy and description and link to tell you why cables don;t matter. All of the evidence will be 2nd hand and never from their own first hand experiences.


Apparently. All I am looking for in the way of 'data' is for someone to provide some firsthand experience on how they came to the conclusion speaker cables make no difference. I would think with all the negative posters in the various threads saying the same thing it should not be that difficult to get some data. If not then that implies none of the posters have any experience in the subject, and are just posting for the sake of posting.

To make up an example, if somebody provides data that using electronics ‘X’ with speakers ‘Y’ they switched between hardware store 12 gauge and Mapleshade Clearview Double Helix Plus cables, and heard no difference, then I could take their position seriously. I would wonder why they heard no difference, but at least they tried.

On the other hand, if they say they switched between Home Depot 12 gauge, and Lowes 12 gauge, and heard no difference then I cannot take their position seriously.

If they have not tried anything ,and just base their opinion on reading something on the Internet, then they have no position, and are, for all intents and purposes, just a troll.

[dorokusai]

Another thread on this? Awesome.

[Erik Tracy]

Apparently. All I am looking for in the way of 'data' is for someone to provide some firsthand experience on how they came to the conclusion speaker cables make no difference. I would think with all the negative posters in the various threads saying the same thing it should not be that difficult to get some data. If not then that implies none of the posters have any experience in the subject, and are just posting for the sake of posting.

To make up an example, if somebody provides data that using electronics ‘X’ with speakers ‘Y’ they switched between hardware store 12 gauge and Mapleshade Clearview Double Helix Plus cables, and heard no difference, then I could take their position seriously. I would wonder why they heard no difference, but at least they tried.

On the other hand, if they say they switched between Home Depot 12 gauge, and Lowes 12 gauge, and heard no difference then I cannot take their position seriously.

If they have not tried anything ,and just base their opinion on reading something on the Internet, then they have no position, and are, for all intents and purposes, just a troll.

But - you don't get it - the burden of proof is on YOU to provide 'data' that cables DO make a difference - that is the scientific argument purported by the AVS 'object'ivists. They on the other hand only have to trundle out outdated and suspect blind a/b tests and post links and demand YOU provide the 'scientific data/proof' - otherwise you are shouted down as delusional.

[madmax]

No proof is really needed either way. My case as an example is as follows. I had close to $10K of MIT cables on my system. When hard times and job loss grabbed me I sold them all. Later after cleaning up the mess I re-purchased the same type of cables. Seriously, would anyone in their right mind pay out hard earned money to re-purchase something that didn't provide a quality difference? If you can't hear the difference why buy cables when a hearing test is most likely needed?
madmax

[BlueFox]

But - you don't get it - the burden of proof is on YOU to provide 'data' that cables DO make a difference - that is the scientific argument purported by the AVS 'object'ivists. They on the other hand only have to trundle out outdated and suspect blind a/b tests and post links and demand YOU provide the 'scientific data/proof' - otherwise you are shouted down as delusional.


All I want is personal experience for data. Nothing more, nothing less.

I went from hardware store 12 guage (forgot price, maybe .20/foot) to Clearview Double Helix Plus ($425 8' pair), and heard a tremendous improvement. Wow, where did that come from was my reaction. Later I upgraded to Omega Mikro Planar 1 ($825 8' pair), and it bought out more and clearer bass, and tamed the high-end. Since I mostly listen to classical I was surprised at the low end that had been missing with the other cables. For rock or rap it is not so apparent.

Fine, I now believe speaker cables make a difference, an obvious difference.

Now, let's hear the data from the other side. What was tried, and the results.

[Erik Tracy]

No proof is really needed either way. My case as an example is as follows. I had close to $10K of MIT cables on my system. When hard times and job loss grabbed me I sold them all. Later after cleaning up the mess I re-purchased the same type of cables. Seriously, would anyone in their right mind pay out hard earned money to re-purchase something that didn't provide a quality difference? If you can't hear the difference why buy cables when a hearing test is most likely needed?
madmax

But where is your 'data' that PROVES the difference?

The AVS 'object'ivists will shout you down as succumbing to the placebo effect or just rationalizing your belief....god forbid that they try a comparison for themselves....

[madmax]

The AVS 'object'ivists will shout you down as succumbing to the placebo effect or just rationalizing your belief....god forbid that they try a comparison for themselves....

I typically don't care what ignorant people think or say. Usually they are bench racers anyway. Most of us are into higher end audio, why argue with people who have some sort of agenda which prevent them from realizing a benifit?
madmax

[98Badger]

BlueFox,

I've seen this same "discussion" on every audio fourm I've participated in and it always degenerates into the same thing. Why not put out the invitation for anyone with cables different from yours to bring them over so you can get some firsthand data yourself? I have to believe there are some members of this forum who are close enough to your location to make this possible. I would be interested to hear your thoughts if such an event ever took place.

As far as finding someone who has tried numerous cables and having them list the gear used, I doubt it would change any strongly held beliefs here. My prediction is that if that person didn't hear a difference, his/her opinion would be dismissed because the wrong equipment was used or they did not have enough experience in knowing what to listen for. Those that want to believe will. Those that don't, won't. The arguements from both sides have been the same for a long time and I don't see that changing any time soon.

[hearingimpared]

BlueFox,

I've seen this same "discussion" on every audio fourm I've participated in and it always degenerates into the same thing. Why not put out the invitation for anyone with cables different from yours to bring them over so you can get some firsthand data yourself? I have to believe there are some members of this forum who are close enough to your location to make this possible. I would be interested to hear your thoughts if such an event ever took place.

As far as finding someone who has tried numerous cables and having them list the gear used, I doubt it would change any strongly held beliefs here. My prediction is that if that person didn't hear a difference, his/her opinion would be dismissed because the wrong equipment was used or they did not have enough experience in knowing what to listen for. Those that want to believe will. Those that don't, won't. The arguements from both sides have been the same for a long time and I don't see that changing any time soon.

I truely believe that that would not be the case here in Club Polk. There maybe some questions but I think we accept each other at our word as to what they hear and what they don't.:)

[BlueFox]

I truely believe that that would not be the case here in Club Polk. There maybe some questions but I think we accept each other at our word as to what they hear and what they don't.:)

Exactly. The problem here is wth those who never try to listen to different cables, and then say there is no difference.

[heiney9]

Look at all the cable naysayers posting in this thread.

S-I-L-E-N-C-E.

That's why I call them trolls, because if they were interested in discussing the topic they would be posting in here. Instead they like to stir the pot.

Nice try Bluefox, but they will never actually discuss what experiences they've had.........because they haven't had any.

H9

[F1nut]

S-I-L-E-N-C-E.


Yeah Brock, it's deafening.

[concealer404]

The blind test doesn't matter in my case either way. I can't see my cables even without a blindfold, sooo..... yeah. Enough on that.

[tonyb]

Look at all the cable naysayers posting in this thread.

S-I-L-E-N-C-E.

That's why I call them trolls, because if they were interested in discussing the topic they would be posting in here. Instead they like to stir the pot.

Nice try Bluefox, but they will never actually discuss what experiences they've had.........because they haven't had any.

H9

You got that right....:):)

[jinjuku]

I'm still waiting for Mr. Engineer to list his testing and measurement protocol.

I would suggest you simply follow a double blind A/B/X and statistically score the results...

[concealer404]

I'm still waiting for Mr. Engineer to list his testing and measurement protocol....

I would suggest you simply follow a double blind A/B/X and statistically score the results...

Why exactly is the double blind test truly relevant, though?

[heiney9]

^^ see rattle the cage at the Zoo and they stir!!

You aren;t even answering the questions.............just side stepping see post #13

[Matt34]

Look at all the cable naysayers posting in this thread.

S-I-L-E-N-C-E.

That's why I call them trolls, because if they were interested in discussing the topic they would be posting in here. Instead they like to stir the pot.

Nice try Bluefox, but they will never actually discuss what experiences they've had.........because they haven't had any.

H9


I just don't feel like starting another multi-page "debate" on this very topic. I would think most here, despite what your beliefs are, are getting tired of these threads popping up almost daily. (I understand where Bluefox is coming from but they always deteriorate into the same ad hominem bickering and fighting despite good intentions or not). Cables are just one small part in the equation yet 99% of the "battles" here are because of them and frankly the trolling is coming from both sides, weather you want to acknowledge it or not.

I would love to have a GTG with people on both sides and have a civilized discussion on the matter, I think points/counterpoints could be made and even some listening test could be conducted....and it would be fun!!

Enjoy the music and who cares what others think, call me a quitter but I'm giving up on expressing my views on this topic. It's not worth the time I spend on the intrawebs.;)

Just to point out the differences in mind set in regards to testing the difference in cables. While what Bluefox asks seems simple enough I just don't agree with the method as stated in my first post. There is just too much of a variance in testing ideology. I strongly believe in human bias playing a large effect in sighted testing, obviously many here don't. Trying to find a common ground from the get go is hard enough.

I hope none of this came off as anything but being sincere. Afterall, it's a kinder, gentler Army nowadays.;)

[jinjuku]

I would like to see something more than:

Throw stuff on the wall and see what sticks approach.

[concealer404]

Matt, here's my question to you:

Why does sight matter? Considering that this is a hobby that centers around improvements in sound, whether it's perceived and not really there or not, (placebo effect) the subject may hear an improvement.

Regardless of whether or not it's measurable, or even real, the subject still may hear an improvement. If they do, then the experiment is a success for that person.

If i like the way my system sounds with cables that are blue, vs. the way they sound with the same cables with a red sheathing, then the blue is better. Even if they really aren't. I heard an improvement. My brain may have manufactured the improvement, but my level of enjoyment has increased. I don't listen to my system blindfolded normally, why would i introduce a different situation in order to test something? If human bias allows for an increase in enjoyment, is it really such a bad thing? This hobby isn't a science. It's based on enjoyment of an art form. Art =! science.

See where i'm going with this?

[jinjuku]

Why exactly is the double blind test truly relevant, though?

Double blind testing is supposed to remove/reduce bias. I don't know if the person has to be blind folded. Maybe put everything behind an acoustically transparent screen.

The problems start when trying to figure out what configuration of components will let one tell a difference between both the line level and speaker level interconnects. What are good enough speakers, what are good enough amps, what are good enough sources. At what point can you definitively say "yep cables are going to be the weakest link".

[jinjuku]

Matt, here's my question to you:

Why does sight matter? Considering that this is a hobby that centers around improvements in sound, whether it's perceived and not really there or not, (placebo effect) the subject may hear an improvement.

Regardless of whether or not it's measurable, or even real, the subject still may hear an improvement. If they do, then the experiment is a success for that person.

If i like the way my system sounds with cables that are blue, vs. the way they sound with the same cables with a red sheathing, then the blue is better. Even if they really aren't. I heard an improvement. My brain may have manufactured the improvement, but my level of enjoyment has increased. I don't listen to my system blindfolded normally, why would i introduce a different situation in order to test something? If human bias allows for an increase in enjoyment, is it really such a bad thing? This hobby isn't a science. It's based on enjoyment of an art form. Art =! science.

See where i'm going with this?

100% see where you are going with this and agree that it is right for you. I would like to deal with reality vs perception. Even if you do n of 10 and your guesses are statistically random then if I follow you would STILL enjoy the blue vs red cables after the fact (?).

[concealer404]

Double blind testing is supposed to remove/reduce bias. I don't know if the person has to be blind folded. Maybe put everything behind an acoustically transparent screen.

The problems start when trying to figure out what configuration of components will let one tell a difference between both the line level and speaker level interconnects. What are good enough speakers, what are good enough amps, what are good enough sources. At what point can you definitively say "yep cables are going to be the weakest link".

When you listen to your system is it behind an acoustically transparent screen? Or are you blindfolded?

I'll be the first to admit that i buy some gear instead of others based on looks. It may be childish or shallow, but for example, i HATE the way NAD gear looks. It will never sit in my system.

Now, i'm not saying that i bought my cables because they're pretty, i'm simply saying that a double blind test is not a direct parallel with how people listen to their systems, and therefor, isn't really relevant.

Here's a relevant test:

"Here's cable A. Ok, you heard it, now let's try cable B. Which do you like better? Cable B? Ok, that cable is better for you."

Of course, it shouldn't be that quick, allow yourself time to absorb all the nuances and so forth, but THAT would be relevant. Double blind? No.

As for your second paragraph? There isn't a definite point. Different for every system, every set of ears. We can only offer guidance based on opinion. Nothing more.

[concealer404]

100% see where you are going with this and agree that it is right for you. I would like to deal with reality vs perception. Even if you do n of 10 and your guesses are statistically random then if I follow you would STILL enjoy the blue vs red cables after the fact (?).

Well, that's the thing... "reality," that being what you can see on a piece of paper, has no place in this hobby. Or at least, it shouldn't.

The reality that should matter, is what the subject "percieves." If the subject perceives a difference, then the difference becomes reality to the only person that matters, that being the owner of the system/listener/subject.

As for red vs blue cables, that's just an example. I, for one, would do enough research that i wouldn't spend money for cables of a different color if they were truly the same. After all, i'm not rich enough to buy cables based on such a trivial judgement. :p It was really just an example to illustrate that it doesn't matter WHY someone likes a cable better. If they do, they do, and there's no need to discuss it further, and certainly no need to tell that person that they're wrong for liking said cable based on what someone else thinks, or can read on a piece of paper.

Recently, i went from one red cable to another red cable. ;) For the record, the new cables are WAY uglier than the previous cables. :p

[BlueFox]

I'm still waiting for Mr. Engineer to list his testing and measurement protocol.

Reading comprehension is a weak point, I see. Testing is personal experience, measuring protocol is using your ears. All I have asked for is what cables, and electronics, were used to reach the conclusion, "Cables make no difference." Nothing more, nothing less.

[jinjuku]

Reading comprehension is a weak point, I see. Testing is personal experience, measuring protocol is using your ears. All I have asked for is what cables, and electronics, were used to reach the conclusion, "Cables make no difference." Nothing more, nothing less.

I understand what you said. I just don't call that testing. Not meant to be mean spirited in any way.

[heiney9]

test 1 (tst)
n.
1. A procedure for critical evaluation; a means of determining the presence, quality, or truth of something; a trial: a test of one's eyesight; subjecting a hypothesis to a test; a test of an athlete's endurance.
2. A series of questions, problems, or physical responses designed to determine knowledge, intelligence, or ability.
3. A basis for evaluation or judgment: "A test of democratic government is how Congress and the president work together" (Haynes Johnson

[jinjuku]

test 1 (tst)
n.
1. A procedure for critical evaluation; a means of determining the presence, quality, or truth of something; a trial: a test of one's eyesight; subjecting a hypothesis to a test; a test of an athlete's endurance.
2. A series of questions, problems, or physical responses designed to determine knowledge, intelligence, or ability.
3. A basis for evaluation or judgment: "A test of democratic government is how Congress and the president work together" (Haynes Johnson

I think we are talking about different testing. I am referring to a reproducible measurement. DIY screen paint is a good example. At Home Theater Shack the Black Widow screen paint is 4 parts Valspar Ultra Premium Enamel with 1 part Auto Air Aluminum. This mix should produce a gray screen that is spot on 6500 everytime (+/- a few degrees of allowed deviation). They have a scenario where they make certain claims. One being that the paint will always turn out neutral. That means that any other 3rd party should be able to independently mix this and then measure and end up with the same result.

If you like what you like that is fine. Every one is welcome to their opinion.

What you posted I believe lends itself more to what Matt and Myself are speaking to: Critical Evaluation.

[F1nut]

So, in the interest of science, tell us the cables used to reach the conclusion, “Cables make no difference”. Nothing more, nothing less. Just some data about what speaker cables were compared that resulted in the conclusion cables make no difference.

So juju, what part of "tell us the cables used to reach the conclusion" are you not understanding? I mean, it is a simple question, one that any 3 year old could answer, so can we take it that your refusal to answer the simple question means that you have no experience with different cables? Yeah, thought so. Troll.

[jinjuku]

So juju, what part of "tell us the cables used to reach the conclusion" are you not understanding? I mean, it is a simple question, one that any 3 year old could answer, so can we take it that your refusal to answer the simple question means that you have no experience with different cables? Yeah, thought so. Troll.

Between some Monster 400i's and my DIY cables the only difference I could tell was price.

Between a $4 Monoprice TOSLink and some $99 Monster TOSlink cable again the only difference was price.

Between a $8 Parts-Express (6 foot) HDMI and a $130 Monster (8ft) HDMI nada.

This was for a friend that I did a PSB system for. Some one almost snowed him on the importance of cables.

I made a bet with him. If he could pick out any of the Monster stuff vs the cables I made and the TOSlink/HDMI cables that I brought over I would buy him the Monster. 2 hours later all the Monster was returned.

I have heard BJC RCA's and couldn't tell a difference. Yes this was with someone switching them while I left the room.

[jinjuku]

So juju, what part of "tell us the cables used to reach the conclusion" are you not understanding? I mean, it is a simple question, one that any 3 year old could answer, so can we take it that your refusal to answer the simple question means that you have no experience with different cables? Yeah, thought so. Troll.

All you ever prove with the way you post is what an immature child you are.

[concealer404]

Between some Monster 400i's and my DIY cables the only difference I could tell was price.

Between a $4 Monoprice TOSLink and some $99 Monster TOSlink cable again the only difference was price.

Between a $8 Parts-Express (6 foot) HDMI and a $130 Monster (8ft) HDMI nada.

This was for a friend that I did a PSB system for. Some one almost snowed him on the importance of cables.

I made a bet with him. If he could pick out any of the Monster stuff vs the cables I made and the TOSlink/HDMI cables that I brought over I would buy him the Monster. 2 hours later all the Monster was returned.

I have heard BJC RCA's and couldn't tell a difference. Yes this was with someone switching them while I left the room.

Considering what you were comparing, i don't think any of us will say that we were surprised... so don't be surprised when everyone says exactly that.

[jinjuku]

Considering what you were comparing, i don't think any of us will say that we were surprised... so don't be surprised when everyone says exactly that.

When some one offers to let me try a $7K cable that will make $7K of difference, that is when I will be surprised.

[concealer404]

When some one offers to let me try a $7K cable that will make $7K of difference, that is when I will be surprised.

You don't need a $7k cable to hear a difference if you're willing to listen.

What you've listed is all bottom of the barrel stuff. All of it.

(EDIT)

Well, i shouldn't judge your homebrew cables. I haven't heard them, so i won't judge.

[jinjuku]

You don't need a $7k cable to hear a difference if you're willing to listen.

100% willing to listen. It's the ROI I am critical of. Hey if Kimber wants to let me try some cables I will be all for it.

I will let you know what I think of Signal Cable. I can also get AQ from BB now.

[concealer404]

100% willing to listen. It's the ROI I am critical of. Hey if Kimber want to let me try some cables I will be all for it.

I will let you know what I think of the Signal Cable's. I can also get AQ from BB now.

ROI?

You may need to go higher up the food chain than the entry level offerings from either company, just as a warning in advance. I don't know what your homebrew cables sound like.

That said, i'd think you would at least hear a difference. Whether for the better or for the worse to your ears, i can't answer.

[jinjuku]

ROI?

You may need to go higher up the food chain than the entry level offerings from either company, just as a warning in advance. I don't know what your homebrew cables sound like.

That said, i'd think you would at least hear a difference. Whether for the better or for the worse to your ears, i can't answer.

Return on Investment (unless you are a billionaire and just don't care).