Tone Controls

[Cpyder]

So after much consideration, I've realized that in most cases, tone controls are evil. For example, with much of today's music, the recording studio loves to max out the loudness of their tracks. In this case, turning up the bass, for example, on an equalizer causes very audible clipping regardless of the volume of your system. But what about lowering the volume of maxed out tracks? Can this remove clipping? I know you're still altering the original signal, but what if the original was mastered horribly. (In some cases, with the volume on the track already causing clipping)? In this case do tone controls produce a "better" sound? (at least to your ears)

[vc69]

No. You can't fix stupid.

[polkatese]

I an ideal world, tone control is not needed. For the same reason, in an ideal HT environment, there is no need for Audyssey MultiEQ. But they serve its purpose.

[heiney9]

Told ya! And no you can't just lower the levels to "fix" the high levels the recordings are made at. They use compression to make all the sounds (soft and loud) play at the same output level.

It's a travesty how many recordings are made today.

H9

[steveinaz]

There's no way to get back crushed dynamic range. You can give your approach a shot, but I doubt you'll be satisfied with the results. "Better Sound" is not likely, you'll simply be messing up something worse than it already is.

[Toolfan66]

Tone controls suck

[treitz3]

What's a tone control? :D

[MillerLiteScott]

I don't even have a balance control. It is what it is. Sometimes it sounds incredible sometimes it sound like S. Garbage in garbage out Bliss in bliss out.

Scott

[bigred7078]

you can't polish a turd...

[MillerLiteScott]

You can't pick one up from the clean end either.

[F1nut]

You can't pick one up from the clean end either.


Hehe.....

[joeparaski]

I've always found this discussion funny. Some of you guys are worried that a tone control will alter the sound the way the artist meant it to be, despite it being already butchered by the fine folks in the mixing/recording studio.

Joe

[Face]

Tone controls add distortion, nuff said.

[jz0h4d]

Musicians use tone controls all of the time. Guitar and bass amps all have tone control circuits and they do get used. Recording desks have EQ . The mic selected to record any source has a frequency response that the recording engineer considers when determining which mic to use on each instrument. The mastering process and again EQ is applied.
When I'm trying to pick out(transcribe) bass lines from CD's guess what I use the EQ to raise the level of the Bass. If I'm trying to pick out acoustic guitar runs I might lower the Bass EQ.

So no there is nothing evil about EQ. It is a tool for you to use or not use.

[F1nut]

Tone controls add distortion, nuff said.

Grand slam!

[pearsall001]

Tone controls add distortion, nuff said.

Kinda like tubes.

[Conradicles]

hehe

[hearingimpared]

Kinda like tubes.

Shed ep you wascally wabbit!

[joeparaski]

Tone controls add distortion, nuff said.



Yeah right, and it's really noticeable too.

Joe

[joeparaski]

Grand slam!


Sure does, when I bring up the highs a bit the noise become so unbearable with all that distortion...I really don't know how anybody can listen to that. Add a bit of bass or midrange and the music becomes undistinguishable from a diesel engine.

Joe

[Face]

Do you have any gear with a tone control bypass? On some gear it does make a subtle difference.

As for tubes, they add even order distortion, which many find pleasing. Odd order distortion is what hurts your ears.

[heiney9]

Kinda like tubes.

No, tubes add a different kind of distortion (2nd order rather than 3rd), not really more, but it depends on the circuit design and the tube used. Most tubes are more linear than most transistors. Non linearity is defined as distortion.

Negative feedback is used to make a circuit more linear and negative feedback adds even more distortion to a circuit. Negative feedback is used more in solid state than in tubes, but some push/pull tube designs use negative feedback, generally less than an equivalent SS circuit. There are some ****ty tube designs out there which add distortion.

H9

[comfortablycurt]

Tone controls? I don't need no steenkin tone controls.

[lanchile]

Tone controls suck

I second that!;)

[lanchile]

Tone controls add distortion, nuff said.

...and change the original sound. I never liked tone controls or balance.That is why in my diy amps I never use them (and never will).

[treitz3]

Ok, ok, ok.....honestly?

Tone controls are good for some systems. When the system is lacking or accentuating certain frequencies or in some cases close to clipping at what many consider "normal listening levels"? Eh, tone controls may [usually do] make the sound, well sound better to the listener. No disrespect to those who are in that place within their own personal audio journey......trust me, I've been there. ;)

That said, when a system reaches a certain level of performance / reproduction? Tone controls are evil "knobs of sin" to the audiophile. What they do is add distortion to the original signal, add an unnatural balance to the overall spectrum of frequencies and almost 95% of the time [IME] boost just a certain frequency which also alters that of the frequencies closest to the frequency the manufacturer is trying to boost in the first place.

What I'm trying to say is that.......let's say a manufacturer makes a bass "boost" at a frequency of [just for the sake of discussion] 65Hz, ok? This affects the frequencies around that boost as well. Depending on the manufacturer, the frequencies affected could be as low as 45 Hz and as high as 75 or higher Hz. That's a big part of the spectrum of frequencies affected by that one tone control.

That's just the bass control.

In other words, you may want to boost [as a listener] the frequency of a bass guitar. The end result of you adjusting the "control" may affect the drums, but the Cello, Basson, French horn, Tuba, Kick drum, Tympani, and what many desire for some punch.....the Tom drum.

Why would you want to affect all of these instruments and add distortion or an altering of the original signal when all you want to do is boost the bass guitar? Seems a little bass ackwards to me.

Now a note to those who may not know.....IME, I have found that a defeat of all tone controls bypasses circuitry and even though no tone controls were used? When defeated, the sound improved and most all aspects got clearer, smoother and more realistic. With my own audio journey at least.

Now, when I finally got a pre that had no tone controls whatsoever? That's when the real sound came in to fruition. With proper amplification [and a little bit of tubes in the mix...], my sound whether it be frequencies or overall sound has improved dramatically.

My point is that though some of you may consider tone controls as an improvement, when you reach a certain point in your audio journey tone controls can be detrimental to the end result as to what hits your ears, instead of a perceived improvement.

Happy listening either way. ;)

[HB27]

Tone controls? I don't need no steenkin tone controls.

Every time I change the tone controls I burn my fingers.

[DSkip]

you can't polish a turd...

Didn't mythbusters prove that wrong by literally doing just that?

:rolleyes:

I like what treitz said.

I am a fan of a good eq in the car, in fact I think its vital, but not so much in the home. I think by having it in a home system it would eliminate the "relaxation" element of listening to the music.

[bluecomet]

In one of my systems I mess around with I used a passive pre-amp from Yamaha the MVS-1 combined with a MX-630 amp. The amp has volume output controls. It is a very clean sound when you cut out all tone controls. On the other hand I have a SAE preamp and parametric equalizer, I find it interesting to modify the sound to your particular taste, EQ's and tonal controls do not mesh well with SDA speakers. Old monitor speakers on the other hand, especially the M10's did tend to benifit from the parametric EQ. Some gear just sound right together. It is a process to find the right combination.

[Conradicles]

Nice man nice.:cool:





Ok, ok, ok.....honestly?

Tone controls are good for some systems. When the system is lacking or accentuating certain frequencies or in some cases close to clipping at what many consider "normal listening levels"? Eh, tone controls may [usually do] make the sound, well sound better to the listener. No disrespect to those who are in that place within their own personal audio journey......trust me, I've been there. ;)

That said, when a system reaches a certain level of performance / reproduction? Tone controls are evil "knobs of sin" to the audiophile. What they do is add distortion to the original signal, add an unnatural balance to the overall spectrum of frequencies and almost 95% of the time [IME] boost just a certain frequency which also alters that of the frequencies closest to the frequency the manufacturer is trying to boost in the first place.

What I'm trying to say is that.......let's say a manufacturer makes a bass "boost" at a frequency of [just for the sake of discussion] 65Hz, ok? This affects the frequencies around that boost as well. Depending on the manufacturer, the frequencies affected could be as low as 45 Hz and as high as 75 or higher Hz. That's a big part of the spectrum of frequencies affected by that one tone control.

That's just the bass control.

In other words, you may want to boost [as a listener] the frequency of a bass guitar. The end result of you adjusting the "control" may affect the drums, but the Cello, Basson, French horn, Tuba, Kick drum, Tympani, and what many desire for some punch.....the Tom drum.

Why would you want to affect all of these instruments and add distortion or an altering of the original signal when all you want to do is boost the bass guitar? Seems a little bass ackwards to me.

Now a note to those who may not know.....IME, I have found that a defeat of all tone controls bypasses circuitry and even though no tone controls were used? When defeated, the sound improved and most all aspects got clearer, smoother and more realistic. With my own audio journey at least.

Now, when I finally got a pre that had no tone controls whatsoever? That's when the real sound came in to fruition. With proper amplification [and a little bit of tubes in the mix...], my sound whether it be frequencies or overall sound has improved dramatically.

My point is that though some of you may consider tone controls as an improvement, when you reach a certain point in your audio journey tone controls can be detrimental to the end result as to what hits your ears, instead of a perceived improvement.

Happy listening either way. ;)

[AudioFilet]

If you use tone controls, does it make you a bad person??

[F1nut]

Sure does, when I bring up the highs a bit the noise become so unbearable with all that distortion...I really don't know how anybody can listen to that. Add a bit of bass or midrange and the music becomes undistinguishable from a diesel engine.

Joe

You should remove those EQ's from your system. It will take some adjustment of your part getting use to what the music is suppose to sound like, but once you do, you'll never go back.

[headrott]

Now a note to those who may not know.....IME, I have found that a defeat of all tone controls bypasses circuitry and even though no tone controls were used? When defeated, the sound improved and most all aspects got clearer, smoother and more realistic. With my own audio journey at least.

Now, when I finally got a pre that had no tone controls whatsoever? That's when the real sound came in to fruition. With proper amplification [and a little bit of tubes in the mix...], my sound whether it be frequencies or overall sound has improved dramatically.

My point is that though some of you may consider tone controls as an improvement, when you reach a certain point in your audio journey tone controls can be detrimental to the end result as to what hits your ears, instead of a perceived improvement.

Happy listening either way. ;)

Agree with the above 100%.

[steveinaz]

There's 2 reasons to use tone controls:

1. Equipment or room shortfalls
2. Poorly engineered recordings (overly hot treble, ect)

Used correctly, and of good design, they can help some limited situations, but they shouldn't be a way of life--or used because you have a tonal sweet tooth. #1 above can be addressed, #2 is a little tougher to get around, but I would say that maybe .5% of my music library is so out of whack, tonally, that it could possibly benefit from the use of tone controls.

[mhardy6647]

Tone controls are of the devil.

[98Badger]

It really comes down to personal preference just like everything else in this hobby. When I first started, I used tone controls and EQ all the time. After upgrading my speakers, it became less necessary (to me). I was worried about going to a dedicated preamp without tone controls a while back, but as it turns out, I don't miss them at all. It always seemed like when I fiddled with the EQ to fix a particular song or type of music, it would mess things up for other songs. I'll be the first to admit this could be the result of adjusting the wrong frequency bands. Now, I doubt I'll go back to either EQ or tone controls.

[Cpyder]

Let me know if this is true: If a recording is already clipped, adjusting the EQ cannot restore any data outside of the clipped zone. The sound waves will still be cut off and all you'll end up with is a more quiet clipping sound. This picture should demonstrate what I mean:

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr2/cpyder/Track.png

[heiney9]

Let me know if this is true: If a recording is already clipped, adjusting the EQ cannot restore any data outside of the clipped zone. The sound waves will still be cut off and all you'll end up with is a more quiet clipping sound. This picture should demonstrate what I mean:

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr2/cpyder/Track.png

Asked an answered in post #4. You can NOT eliminate clipping if it's part of the recording, unless you have the master recording, very expensive and sophisticated software and a lot of knowledge. Even then depending on the recording it may not be able to be saved.

[LessisNevermore]

Asked an answered in post #4. You can NOT eliminate clipping if it's part of the recording, unless you have the master recording, very expensive and sophisticated software and a lot of knowledge. Even then depending on the recording it may not be able to be saved.

Actually, that depends on when the clipping occurred. If it happened (as it usually does) at the mastering stage, then yes, it can be corrected, by re-mastering. If it happens at the recording stage, it's game over...no fixing that, ever.(short of re-recording the clipped section)

I can think of one recording in particular, where a vocal line got distorted, not because of riding the fader too hot, but because the voice was so powerful, it literally distorted the microphone diaphragm. It was an otherwise perfect take, so it was kept. The distortion sounds like an added effect, unless you know what it is, and are listening for it.

[heiney9]

Actually, that depends on when the clipping occurred. If it happened (as it usually does) at the mastering stage, then yes, it can be corrected, by re-mastering. If it happens at the recording stage, it's game over...no fixing that, ever.(short of re-recording the clipped section)

I can think of one recording in particular, where a vocal line got distorted, not because of riding the fader too hot, but because the voice was so powerful, it literally distorted the microphone diaphragm. It was an otherwise perfect take, so it was kept. The distortion sounds like an added effect, unless you know what it is, and are listening for it.

Less, I assumed he was talking after the fact about a consumer CD he purchased and wants to "unclip" at home using an eq/tone controls. Not at the mastering level. If you see his other posts, he's a young college student who is still learning the ropes of audio.

Let me guess Dream Theater - Burning My Soul :D:p

Or maybe it's Lines In The Sand

H9

[LessisNevermore]

Less, I assumed he was talking after the fact about a consumer CD he purchased and wants to "unclip" at home using an eq/tone controls. Not at the mastering level. If you see his other posts, he's a young college student who is still learning the ropes of audio.

Gotcha.


Or maybe it's Lines In The Sand

Ooooh, you're good.:eek::D

[Mon40CSMM10]

I recently added a passive subwoofer to a secondary system, and my tests show that there is a valid and necessary use for both the bass and treble tone control adjustments. Otherwise, the passive subwoofer may provide too much boomy bass and the satellite type mains may not be able to project enough through that boomy bass.

Secondary system in use:

* 6 ohm passive subwoofer (originally from a cheap Venturer home theater system but the integrated receiver/DVD player had broken). Connected to the receiver's B-speaker outputs, positive speaker wire to left output and negative speaker wire to right speaker output. Scosche Low Pass crossover also attached to the positive wire.

* Technics SA-GX170 stereo receiver.

* KLH TW-90B 8-ohm satellite mains. Scosche XOHP High Pass crossover is also attached to the positive wire of each of the satellite main speakers.

(Note: The use of the Low Pass and High Pass crossovers helps ensure a smoother transition from the mains to the subwoofer, for music and also 2.1 channel movie usage. Although these are typically car audio components, their use in home audio seems legitimate as well.)

Tone control adjustments (center position is dial pointer at 12 o'clock):

* Bass dialed all the way down to between the 8 o'clock and 9'o clock position. This reduces how low the subwoofer can reach but also removes the boomy quality of the front firing/rear ported passive subwoofer.

* Treble is increased slightly to between the 12 o'clock and 1 o'clock position.

This is typically a lower volume setup in a secondary room (it rarely gets turned up past 2 out of a maximum of 20 on the volume dial), so it's more important for the system to sound clear at lower volumes and have a relatively full frequency range instead of the subwoofer being able to hit really hard and really low.

So, that's my justification for usage of tone controls.

[Cpyder]

Less, I assumed he was talking after the fact about a consumer CD he purchased and wants to "unclip" at home using an eq/tone controls. Not at the mastering level. If you see his other posts, he's a young college student who is still learning the ropes of audio.

Let me guess Dream Theater - Burning My Soul :D:p

Or maybe it's Lines In The Sand

H9

Yeah, I don't own a recording studio... yet. :)

[dougy]

Personally, I wish more two-channel gear had good tone controls like back in the good ol' days. And to make it even better, they should be remotely controlled. As long as they can be bypassed, what's the down-side, other than the cost? Quality parametric EQ can be a real room tamer, too.

As for the distortion tone controls add, I've never heard it, unless you are talking about driving your amp into clipping because of the boosted level -and that's not a fault with the EQ circuit. What I have heard, is hiss from some tone control and EQ circuits, especially if much treble boost is used. And sometimes, even with the contols at the neutral positions, I've heard increased noise. So of course that's always a bad thing.

Still, tone controls have their place and can be very useful tools. After all, we all have recordings that have too much or too little bass or treble. A little boost or cut can make it much better sounding and isn't that what it's all about?.

[hearingimpared]

Personally, I wish more two-channel gear had good tone controls like back in the good ol' days. And to make it even better, they should be remotely controlled. As long as they can be bypassed, what's the down-side, other than the cost? Quality parametric EQ can be a real room tamer, too.

As for the distortion tone controls add, I've never heard it, unless you are talking about driving your amp into clipping because of the boosted level -and that's not a fault with the EQ circuit. What I have heard, is hiss from some tone control and EQ circuits, especially if much treble boost is used. And sometimes, even with the contols at the neutral positions, I've heard increased noise. So of course that's always a bad thing.

Still, tone controls have their place and can be very useful tools. After all, we all have recordings that have too much or too little bass or treble. A little boost or cut can make it much better sounding and isn't that what it's all about?.

While I agree with your sentiments for the most part. There is a reason that high end gear manufacturers for the most part did away with them. I believe that room treatments would better tame bass and treble problems. I sometimes wish I could boost my bass response but the reason for that is there are some null spots and trapped bass response in my speaker side corners. I'm working on some room treatments of my own to help this along.

[Fongolio]

I listen to a lot of older music on vinyl from the 60's and 70's and have found the eq'ing done at mastering is all over the map. I found that original releases are generaly better mastered than subsequent releases. I find tone controls very helpful for compensating for bad or less than top notch mastering. What I don't understand is why some engineers drastically alter the eq'ing of some great originals. For newer music and digital in general I rarely touch my tone controls but for older stuff I find them essential.

Ok, fire suit is on. Flame away.

PS...Robert Ludwig masters on vinyl and Steve Hoffman on digital are some of the very best to my ears. Set tone to defeat and enjoy.

[ben62670]

KISS More stuff in the signal path the more that the SQ is degraded. When I first started messing around inside higher end gear I was shocked to see how few a component was in there.
Ben

[hearingimpared]

I listen to a lot of older music on vinyl from the 60's and 70's and have found the eq'ing done at mastering is all over the map. I found that original releases are generaly better mastered than subsequent releases. I find tone controls very helpful for compensating for bad or less than top notch mastering. What I don't understand is why some engineers drastically alter the eq'ing of some great originals. For newer music and digital in general I rarely touch my tone controls but for older stuff I find them essential.

Ok, fire suit is on. Flame away.

PS...Robert Ludwig masters on vinyl and Steve Hoffman on digital are some of the very best to my ears. Set tone to defeat and enjoy.

You mean Fire Retardant Suit!!!:D You're dead on with Ludwig and Hoffman. There are several companies that do a bang up job like those two fellas.

[reeltrouble1]

Tone Controls drool
never forget though
Tubes Rule.

that's it.

I am RT1

who put the pigweed in the mulligan stew????

[reeltrouble1]

btw this one echoes.

RT1

[Hillbilly61]

My amp has tone controls, but the knobs do not sport my finger prints. IMHO the three band tone controls that come on most units are too crude to be of much use.

Back when vinyl ruled, there were a lot of equalizers around too. The best ones, 10 or 12 bands, served a purpose of equalizing the speakers to the room particulars. For example, if the room has a lot of hard surfaces, the tweets may be toned done a bit to cut back on undesirable reflections. The best equalizers came with a pink noise generator and mike to assist with calibration. Some self calibrated.

Like others said here, you cannot equalize music that came clipped or otherwise distorted. Garbage in = garbage out (only louder!).

[reeltrouble1]

balance controls were also useful back in the day for TT as the grooves could be quite a ride for the stylus and it was not uncommon for it to ride left or right of center.

RT1

[hearingimpared]

balance controls were also useful back in the day for TT as the grooves could be quite a ride for the stylus and it was not uncommon for it to ride left or right of center.

RT1

That is correct but the improvements in stylus technology i.e. line contact stylus and fine contact stylus have made this a past necessity.

In my best Mexican bandit voice, "I don't need no stinkin' balance control!"

BTW "tone controls drool, tubes rule" WAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

[concealer404]

I heard that tubes WERE tone controls. :p

[hearingimpared]

I heard that tubes WERE tone controls. :p

They can be! Rolling, rolling, rolling on the tube express.

[sucks2beme]

Most built in tone controls are completely useless. Even better ones have their limits. Like others have noticed, adjusting for something I want normally
will do bad things in ther places. The car is a different story. Hard to
reposition speakers there!

[reeltrouble1]

Old Addage from Old Guy........................an audio signal can only be degraded by any device within its signal path, at best it might pass relatively unscathed. Tubes do change the signal, love those little electrons and getters and such.

RT1

[SCompRacer]

If you use tone controls, does it make you a bad person??

No, it's more an issue of poor judgement.:D

Hey Joe, if I have a balance problem, I just lean right or left.

[pploeser]

I don't see anything wrong with using tone controls to compensate for less than ideal room acoustics or speaker placement... or even poor sounding recordings. After all, why not use them to make your music sound the way you like it? That's what artists and recording engineers do in the studio right?

Having said that, I do agree that you can't use tone controls to completely resurrect characteristics that have been stripped from the original recording.

[reeltrouble1]

I am not sure if an analogy between an artist and an audio reproduction device is a comparison of note. The pots in the controls further degrade the signal on its trip. Do you have any experience with audio gear developed without tone controls?? Any thoughts on why certain manufacture's make sure to include tone defeats on some of their gear?? Just asking, as you say, you can use them all you want if it makes you like your system.

RT1

[heiney9]

Tone controls add unecessary circuits which in turn create noise which in turn ultimately do more harm than good. Even the so called "direct" button or buttons that supposedly defeat the controls are no good as they add the same type of noise and distortion as the controls themselves.

Speaker A/B switches are evil as well. It's all about what trade offs you are willings to make in your particular situation and what you want to accomplish in the end.

For me I want the simplest, most revealing, highest resolution system I choose to afford. There are drawbacks to this kind of system, no two recordings ever sound alike, poorer recordings meticulously show their flaws but the big reward is well recorded music sounds spectacular!!!

Not everyone enjoys so much truth in their systems.........to me the truth is the most important, even if the truth is hard to listen to at times.

H9

[Hillbilly61]

I don't see anything wrong with using tone controls to compensate for less than ideal room acoustics or speaker placement... or even poor sounding recordings. After all, why not use them to make your music sound the way you like it? That's what artists and recording engineers do in the studio right?

Having said that, I do agree that you can't use tone controls to completely resurrect characteristics that have been stripped from the original recording.

I don't disagree. Equalizers are the tool for the job. They adjust the volume per frequency range much more finely than the two or three knobs on an amp can ever do.

[SCompRacer]

I used a Behringer DEQ2496 for a while and even considered modding it to make it less harmful to the signal passing through it. While it worked OK, I found greater listening pleasure by removing it and spending some money on room acoustic treatments. I couldn't be happier and regretted not addressing the room sooner in my audio life.

[hearingimpared]

No, it's more an issue of poor judgement.:D

Hey Joe, if I have a balance problem, I just lean right or left.

I just put my ear tweaks on.:eek:

[pploeser]

I am not sure if an analogy between an artist and an audio reproduction device is a comparison of note. The pots in the controls further degrade the signal on its trip. Do you have any experience with audio gear developed without tone controls?? Any thoughts on why certain manufacture's make sure to include tone defeats on some of their gear?? Just asking, as you say, you can use them all you want if it makes you like your system.

I was comparing the artist to the end listener, rather than the equipment itself. Artists/mixers use tone controls to make the music sound the way they like, as would a consumer listening to the final product.

Still, I agree with the comments about the presence of tone controls effecting the sound. Every single component between the original instrument and the consumer's ear is going to introduce changes, no matter how good it is. I prefer to find gear that sounds good over a range of music styles, without tone controls. The simpler, the better. Moving your speakers or listening position can sometimes be surprisingly effective too.

[reeltrouble1]

gotcha, and btw welcome to Club Polk, enjoy the board and all our rather unique members.

RT1

[pploeser]

gotcha, and btw welcome to Club Polk, enjoy the board and all our rather unique members.

RT1

Thanks, glad to be here. I've found it to be very informative so far.

[JPSmario]

Having been on both sides of this (as I see it), I have a personal perspective.

As a working musician, I would never have considered working without EQ control. My keyboard patches (strings, brass, Rhodes, B-3) often required EQ changes to get the sound I wanted. EQ'ing the mic on my sax was the only way to get my sound (what I hear when I play facing a live, hard surfaced wall) from the PA system. Getting the sound you want is, for me, a critical part of musical expression either on stage or in the studio. Also, some of the mixing boards, EQ's, and effects present in these systems time and again would redefine 'clean' and 'cost' in my world, far more of an investment than I will ever see in my living room.

I used to have a 7-band EQ on my 2 channel receiver and it did make up for what I saw as deficiencies in my speakers at that time. This constantly allowed me to get my rig to sound the way I liked it to sound. I've changed on this, though. Now I look for the sound the artist intended when they recorded and mixed their work and the lack of tone controls is key. My system now probably has its own sound, but this seems to be more about what it's capable of and less about making all recordings sound the same. The system provides a wide, deep stage and seems to otherwise disappear as it sounds different with each recording artist, style or era. This new way of listening has me rediscovering my music collection and I really enjoy that. I think I'm hearing more of the truth of each artist's expression.

Well there's my $.02 worth. I enjoy reading everyone's ideas and perceptions because I learn new things all the time.

[steveinaz]

It all depends on what you are after; the recording as it happened (warts included), or a version that you prefer. It's just that simple. This reminds me of HDTV calibration, where people insist on deviating from the standards to something more like what they believe to look better or more pleasing---one choice is proper calibration, the other is not. Do you want reality, or your version of what you'd like reality to be?

Beauty vs Truth, one of the oldest debates in Audiophile land.

Having said that, if you use "after-the-fact" equalization---this would seem to indicate (at least in my opinion) something is out of whack.

[Fongolio]

Thank you JPSmario and welcome to the forum. I like you perspective from the recording and performance end. I still feel that what the artist intended and what was released on a lot of vinyl (and cd for that matter) are I'm sure way too often NOT the same thing.

I'll give an example. I have Stevie Wonder's Songs In The Key Of LIfe and Innervisions. Both on vinyl both original Tamla/Motown releases. Songs In The Key sounds fantastic, perfect balance of good deep bass and articulate highs and very dynamic. Innervisions on the hand sounds lifeless, totally flacid bass, muddy sounding highs and not very "alive" sounding. I am sure this is not the sound Stevie was striving for. Some mastering engineer probably had "bright" studio monitors and eq'ed the life right out of the pressing. I can compensate a little and make this recording sound quite nice by adjusting my tone controls. An equalizer would be better I agree. So if I only listened to audiophile (whatever that means) pressings of LP's I would probably never feel the need for adjustment but as long as every engineers ears and monitors are different I will want to have the option of making an adjustment to the sound. If that comes at a slight signal degradation for the gain of my enjoyment I am perfectly ok with that.

[hearingimpared]

Thank you JPSmario and welcome to the forum. I like you perspective from the recording and performance end. I still feel that what the artist intended and what was released on a lot of vinyl (and cd for that matter) are I'm sure way too often NOT the same thing.

I'll give an example. I have Stevie Wonder's Songs In The Key Of LIfe and Innervisions. Both on vinyl both original Tamla/Motown releases. Songs In The Key sounds fantastic, perfect balance of good deep bass and articulate highs and very dynamic. Innervisions on the hand sounds lifeless, totally flacid bass, muddy sounding highs and not very "alive" sounding. I am sure this is not the sound Stevie was striving for. Some mastering engineer probably had "bright" studio monitors and eq'ed the life right out of the pressing. I can compensate a little and make this recording sound quite nice by adjusting my tone controls. An equalizer would be better I agree. So if I only listened to audiophile (whatever that means) pressings of LP's I would probably never feel the need for adjustment but as long as every engineers ears and monitors are different I will want to have the option of making an adjustment to the sound. If that comes at a slight signal degradation for the gain of my enjoyment I am perfectly ok with that.

I agree with your assessment of 'Innervisions' it sounds lousy. The problem I have with tone controls or EQ's is the noise they induce into the chain. If I needed to change the sound of a lousy recording, in my experience, it can't be done with either because it just accentuates the lousy SQ of the recording.

Even if I have great music that is compressed or just crappily recorded, I can't listen to it anyway. I've become spoiled by "audiophile" or just plain good recordings and would rather listen to them.

I've stated on many occasions that if it sounds great, I don't care if I like the music genre or not, I'm listening.

Kelvin, how's the stapled wrist healing?

[Cpyder]

I agree with your assessment of 'Innervisions' it sounds lousy. The problem I have with tone controls or EQ's is the noise they induce into the chain. If I needed to change the sound of a lousy recording, in my experience, it can't be done with either because it just accentuates the lousy SQ of the recording.

Even if I have great music that is compressed or just crappily recorded, I can't listen to it anyway. I've become spoiled by "audiophile" or just plain good recordings and would rather listen to them.

I've stated on many occasions that if it sounds great, I don't care if I like the music genre or not, I'm listening.

Kelvin, how's the stapled wrist healing?

I can agree to that. If a recording sounds amazing I'll listen to it even if it's not my usual listening genres.

[mhardy6647]

I can agree to that. If a recording sounds amazing I'll listen to it even if it's not my usual listening genres.

Carry that to its illogical extreme... and you have Jazz at the Pawnshop.

(In fairness, I do it, too... that is the only possible explanation for the fact that I do own one Diana Krall CD)

EDIT: FWIW, I wouldn't call Innervisions a lousy sounding album... it's certainly not a great-sounding album (I have it only on licorice pizza, so I don't know about CD releases), but it's a great album...

[hearingimpared]

Carry that to its illogical extreme... and you have Jazz at the Pawnshop.

(In fairness, I do it, too... that is the only possible explanation for the fact that I do own one Diana Krall CD)

EDIT: FWIW, I wouldn't call Innervisions a lousy sounding album... it's certainly not a great-sounding album (I have it only on licorice pizza, so I don't know about CD releases), but it's a great album...

I'll have to dig up my LPs (I have a few copies) of Innervisions and check again. The last time I listened to it, I took it out of the heavy rotation line-up and have buried it in the crappy recording file.

Speaking of great recordings but awful music that I listen to often, my son came back from Ireland with a recording of, I can't remember the name of the instrument, but it is similar to bagpipes, being played and recorded in a chuch in conjuction with a huge old fashoned pipe organ. It sounds awesome!!! The pipe organ's lows shake the house and many are felt more than heard. The music however sucks but I still enjoy it.

EDIT: found it, the instrument is an Irish bagpipe called Uilleann Pipes.

Hey, don't we have a new member with the screen name Uilleann?