[Help Needed] bugdet amp(s) for power hungry 'digms [Archive]

pploeser

02-25-2010, 10:38 PM

I've got a pair of Paradigm Reference Studio 100's (the 1st generation) currently powered by a McIntosh C-15 preamp and a borrowed McIntosh 2100 power amp rated at (I think) 105wpc ~ 8ohms. I'd like to update the power amp and give the 2100 back to dad. Polk and Paradigm seem to be in a similar class of performance and value, so I figure this is a good place to ask for advice on amplification.

I had them bi-amped at one point with a pair of 2100's and thought it was a pretty killer setup. (basically 100 watts x 2, per speaker @ 8 ohms) Trouble is, I can't afford 400 watts worth of McIntosh power. I'm not an expert on impedance ratings, and current requirements, all I know is these seem to like as much as you can give 'em. I've read the impedance on these can dip down below 4 ohms in certain frequency ranges, so I'm looking for something that will be able to handle that without breaking a sweat. The only real complaint (and it's a minor one) is that the Studio 100's can be a hair too bright in the vocal range at times, but I think this may have a lot to do with the room I've got them in... probably too small, and with very bare walls.

Oh and my preamp has the 12v trigger output, so finding an amp with the input would be a plus.

I'd like to stick to a budget of about $800 or less total if possible. I'm considering new or used equipment with an emphasis on bang-for-your-buck. I know that's not going to get me McIntosh quality, but this will be a solid foundation from which to make improvements later if I decide I want to.

cnh

02-25-2010, 10:44 PM

WELCOME TO CLUB POLK!

There are a ton of mid-fi power amps to choose from. Try to listen to a few. From your post above...I'll suggest only one, though there are dozens...

Listen to a GOOD USED Parasound...preferably HALO 21 if you can up your budget just a bit?

Others will chime in!

Stick around.

cnh

Hawkeye

02-25-2010, 11:21 PM

I used a B&K ref 2220 2 channel amp with my Studio 100 V1s and it did somewhat tame the tweeter. A nice amp which I think works well with the 'dimes. And it will give you a hint of the McIntosh sound, must be something about New York!

Gordon

rcrook317

02-26-2010, 04:33 PM

i bought a emotiva xpa-2....very pleased w/ performance and they offer 5yr warranty w/ 30 day demo.But there are many other options if your willing to go the used route.

adcom,rotel,outlaw just to name a few

mshan242700

02-26-2010, 04:43 PM

vintage Luxman M-117?

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/2200.html (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1271794853&/Outlaw-Audio-2200-Monoblock-si)

Can't recommend a specific model, but Parasound recommendation above is also worth looking into.

billbillw

02-26-2010, 04:54 PM

Welcome to CP, but I'm curious what brought you here. A Paradigm Studio/Mac user slumming around a Polk forum?

Anyway, I have a fondness for Parasound amps. New Halo stuff, or vintage HCA stuff. I've also enjoyed what I've heard from B&K and Acurus. I still have an Acurus A250 boxed up to use some day with my SDAs.

heiney9

02-26-2010, 04:59 PM

Those are known to be on the bright side of the spectrum. Because of that I'd steer clear of Emotiva simply because they are pretty forward sounding same with Outlaw and frankly *if* your looking to retain some of the McIntosh sound those don;t come close.

Parasound Halo
Adcom GFA5802
Belles
B & K
Classe

come to mind.

pploeser

02-27-2010, 01:38 PM

thanks for the tips everyone.

billbillw - I got my gear (other than the 2100) back in high school (i.e. before I was married and had to be responsible with my money) :rolleyes: Anyway, I've browsed the polk forums a bit lately, and it looks to be a very knowledgeable community for a wide range of gear.

In terms of specs and features, I'm considering the following options (start with one and eventually go with the bi-amp setup)

In order of preference (I think...)

used Parasound Halo A23
used Rotel RB-1070
used B&K ref 125.2
used Adcom GFA 5400
new Emotiva UPA-2

Looks like most of these can be had from Audiogon at the moment for under $700. Any thoughts on that lineup?

TroyD

02-27-2010, 03:15 PM

Of the choices, I'd look at Parasound.....

However, ~100wpc of GOOD amp is plenty of power for your speakers. I'd also look at some of the used Classe amps. You can find them within your budget and I would say on par with the Mac.

BDT

mshan242700

02-27-2010, 04:27 PM

If budget is really important: http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1272488397&/Outlaw-M200-mono-block-pair

(like poster below says, these are probably more tuned for home theater than 2 channel audio. But if you needs lots of power and budget is a real issue...)

heiney9

02-27-2010, 04:30 PM

If budget is really important: http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1272488397&/Outlaw-M200-mono-block-pair

To the OP, if sound is important don't bother with Outlaw. From your post I gather you want something similar or along the lines of the sound of McIntosh. The Outlaw will not give you that sound.

H9

Hawkeye

02-27-2010, 06:02 PM

I'd strongly suggest the B&K Ref 2220 over the 125.2 if you can find one. Been there, done this and the Studio will eat the 125 for lunch. Can't comment on your other choices as I've no first hand experience with them but the B&K will give a fair impression of McIntosh if that is the sound you like.

Gordon

pploeser

02-28-2010, 01:32 AM

OK,

looks like Parasound, B&K, and Classe are popular top choices for McIntosh-like sound.

Here are a few options within my budget

Parasound Halo A23 (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1270248576&/Parasound-Halo-A-23-Mint-condi) I definitely dig the looks of these, good specs too.

Classe CA-100 (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1271462186&/Classe-CA-100-Amplifier-Reduce) newer Classe models look to be beyond my budget, even used. would an older model like this still be a strong option?

B&K ST 125.2 (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1271086868&/B-K-Components-Ltd.-ST-125.2-o) haven't found a 2220 for sale anywhere yet.

Parasound HCA-1000 (http://classifieds.audioreview.com//showproduct.php?product=905&cat=all) (I could easily handle 2 of those for the asking price)

Adcom GFA 5400 (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1271991176&/Adcom-GFA-5400-Amplifier) (I could manage a pair of these too)

Which one would you spend your money on??

It sounds like Rotel, Emotiva, Outlaw could make things a bit too bright for my liking. Any thoughts on NAD (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1272219736&/NAD-C-272-power-amp)?

I'm itching to pull the trigger on one of these now! Again thanks for all the tips... you've been extremely helpful. Good group of people here.

cfrizz

02-28-2010, 11:23 AM

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1270617529&/Parasound-2250-
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1272215325&/B-K-REF200.2-
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1272126640&/B-K-ST-202-Plus-200-Watts

jaxwired

02-28-2010, 01:29 PM

NAD C375bee. In Oct 2009, Sam Tellig of stereophile magazine wrote about the C375: “NAD is up there in quality with the best solid state...and performs way, way, out of its price class”. This amp has gobs of power providing 250W, 410W, 600W IHF Dynamic power into 8, 4 and 2 ohms, respectively according to the NAD web site.

Here's one on audiogon with warranty. This is the current NAD line. $970

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1270920231&/NAD-C375BEE-Integrated-Amp-wit

pploeser

02-28-2010, 11:18 PM

alright... 1 step forward, 2 steps back. or something like that

Are there notable differences between Parasound HCA, New Classic and Halo? Same with the B&K... ST vs. REF? The new ones all look pretty and cost more. I know they (Halo, Reference) have slightly better specs, but does the price increase reflect noticeable sound improvements?

I'm thinking of trying out an older B&K or Parasound (ST 125.2 or HCA 1000) model to see if the warmth is really what I'm looking for, without making a huge investment. If it's a hit, I can sell and upgrade to a newer model, or bi-amp from there. Another possibility would be to add a high power Rotel or Adcom down low from that point, if I decide I want to tighten things up a bit. I like the specs of the Rotel 1080 for the money.

Good strategy?

Also, any tips on justifying a $500+ electronics purchase to your wife? j/k :D

nooshinjohn

03-01-2010, 12:25 AM

pploeser

03-01-2010, 11:01 PM

down to 2 (I think)

http://dayton.craigslist.org/ele/1545327055.html

or

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180474392768&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_500wt_1182

I'm getting a little shy now about spending my original budget. Otherwise I think I'd be considering the Parasound Halo or B&K reference

Gempler

03-01-2010, 11:46 PM

i would suggest putting in a call to mcintosh regarding matching other manufactures amps to your mac pre. i know that older mac power amps had a different and higher drive signal requirement than the what is typical in the industry making it hard to pair some other manufacturers pre with a mac amp. newer mac amps have a switch to compensate for this. have no idea how a mac pre with higer drive singal would perform with another manufacturers power amp. if you talk to them please report back what you learn. perhaps my information is old and not relevant for your relatively new (in macintosh years) 10 year old (?) c-15 pre.

Gempler

03-02-2010, 01:02 AM

ps. there is a mc2105 on audiogon with an asking price of $850. it is being sold by an authorized dealer who says they have checked that it is in good shape. a dealer shoudl know how to ship it correctly to prevent damage to the glass. but it would be wise to confirm that they will be shipping in a mcintosh box. this is the same amp as the mc2100 but with a glass face with mcintosh blue meters. the price fits your budget, but it does not have a trigger as you know...

pploeser

03-02-2010, 09:27 PM

Oh boy... not going so well here. I rearranged the (very small) room to allow me to spread the speakers out a bit farther (trying the equilateral triangle setup) and fired up the CD player for the first time in quite a while. Since we've lived here (2 yrs or so) I've used ipod / iphone for a music source out of laziness, while the CD collection sat in the closet. Well, I'm just not quite liking how things are sounding now. Mids and highs sound harsh at higher volumes, and I'm not feeling the bass like I want to.

I thought I liked the Rotel / McIntosh / Paradigm combo, but now I'm having my doubts. I'm not sure if it's the small size of the room (10' w x 11' d), the bare walls, the fact that I rearranged, or something else. The last time I really sat down and listened to a CD was years ago, and the setup was in a completely different place. I'm wondering if my ears / preferences have changed since then? Could I have become more or less sensitive tofrequency ranges? I do believe this has gone beyond a discussion of amp selection! On top of all that, my CD player is not working well at all. Maybe I should have left well enough alone :confused:

Gempler

03-02-2010, 10:23 PM

sorry to hear that. i am no fan of the rotel sound. it has a very clear, tight, and precise sound but it is too bright for me. can't imagine that someone who likes the macintosh sound would be happy with it. you would probably be happier with an older adcom power amp if not another mac. keep in mind that though your old mac 2100 is rated at 105 wpc it is very conservateively rated and tests at more like 150 wpc. that makes the rb 1080 not that much more powerful than what you are used to and you are probably responding to the sound qualities of the amp.

phuz

03-02-2010, 10:42 PM

If you can find a B&K ref 200.2 S2, jump on it. I think it might be just what you're looking for.

Otherwise, the classe and parasounds you were looking at would be my suggestion. Don't forget Sunfire.

pploeser

03-03-2010, 12:06 AM

I'm really starting to lean towards the B&K reference amps, but the more I think about it, the less I want to spend $900 right now. So unless I find a killer deal on a 200.2, I'd have to go with the 125.2, which may not have the juice needed to open up the Studio 100's? I was going to ask about Sunfire 300, as it was mentioned here. Very good specs, according to the ebay auction. What should I expect it to sell for? Adcom 5500 is a recurring suggestion with good specs for the price.

Well... bed time...

sucks2beme

03-03-2010, 12:15 AM

Look for a Stratos. About $600-650 on Audiogon if you watch.

mantis

03-03-2010, 12:22 AM

You know Anthem is made along side of Paradigm? Anthem and Paradigm go together like Peanut butter and jelly. You might find what you are looking for there.

Good luck.

Gempler

03-03-2010, 12:42 AM

... Adcom 5500 is a recurring suggestion with good specs for the price.

the adcom 5500 is completely different design than the 555 or 555ii. the 5500 is a mosfet design and the 555/555ii is bipolar. they are both good amps but the 5500 is brighter. i prefer the 555 and think that if you like the macs sound then you would probably feel the same way. in other words, you might not like the 5500 and so i suggest you focus on the 555 or 555ii. they certainly earn the title of a quality budget amp and are so popular that they are both easy to buy and easy to sell.

pploeser

03-03-2010, 11:41 AM

You know Anthem is made along side of Paradigm? Anthem and Paradigm go together like Peanut butter and jelly. You might find what you are looking for there.

Good luck.

I did know this, and considered Anthem when I got my speakers. Honestly, I went with the C-15 because we already had enough 2100's laying around for me to get up and running, and the McIntosh sound is was what I was used to. If Anthem and Paradigm are related, and the Studio 100's are a bit bright for me, wouldn't the Anthem be as well?

Now you've got me looking at the Odyssey amps. Definitely within my price range. Any second opinions on those?

reeltrouble1

03-03-2010, 12:08 PM

We have had some members who own/have owned them, they generally have a good rep. I know that TAS had one of them listed as a great buy dollar for dollar.

RT1

pploeser

03-03-2010, 04:32 PM

found a place nearby that carries B&K and Paradigm. It looks like they've got a setup similar to what I'm shooting for. I think I'll try to go have a listen this week. Not a substitute for an audition at home, on my version of the Studio 100's, but it can't hurt either :D

Will post my thoughts if I get the chance to go listen.

Still watching some used B&K, Odyssey, Parasound and Adcom gear on ebay/audiogon.

reeltrouble1

03-03-2010, 04:36 PM

I have alot of experience with B&K and some with Parasound, these companies certainly build certain components at a hi-fi level with quite a bit of trickle down technology to their lesser lines.

I am pretty sure it was the Khartogo for Odyssey that was well reviewed and enjoyed by member here.

RT1

Montoya

03-03-2010, 09:20 PM

I went with anthem I'm really impressed with the sound and build quality. I also have a roksan Amp that is good as
well it is a very detailed amp but the anthem is more well rounded and has a way better bass delivery and overall I think it is more transparent.

pploeser

03-03-2010, 09:23 PM

Of interest, I hooked my macbook up to the 2-channel rig for some listening tonight since the Rotel is on the fritz, and have actually liked it quite well so far. Maybe it's just my imagination, but it's not quite as fatiguing as I felt the CD player was to listen to. It lacks a bit of the detail and dynamic, but seems to have taken some of the edge off of the mids & highs. Is this a sign that maybe I should seek a different brand of CD player? On top of that fact that it's not working at the moment... :(

W WALDECKER

03-04-2010, 07:19 PM

I had Ref 100 V3's with a Rotel RB1080 and they sounded lifeless and compressed and i decided to give Odyssey a try and bought a pair of Khartago Monoblocks and they worked great with the Ref 100 V3's. Klaus will work with you and your budget and i have known him to sell gear for less than the price on his website and he may have some nice amps sitting around that are trade ins for a really good price. good luck....WCW III

reeltrouble1

03-05-2010, 09:10 AM

don't be a silly boy, of course you should get a new cd player, which one.....well lots of choices, but something made with hi-fi music in mind might be the priority.

RT1

pploeser

03-05-2010, 11:00 AM

don't be a silly boy, of course you should get a new cd player, which one.....well lots of choices, but something made with hi-fi music in mind might be the priority.

RT1

yeah, and I'm starting to wonder if I should look for speakers without a metal dome tweeter... maybe that's a source for some of the brightness I'm not quite liking. what did I get myself into! oh, right... the pursuit of said "hi-fi music" :)

Gonna have the CDP looked at tomorrow. I may get it fixed and sell it. Or trade it in... for a TT :eek:

pploeser

03-05-2010, 10:24 PM

This amp has not been discussed yet, but I feel it represents a great choice. The Sunfire Stereo 300x2.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sunfire-Home-Theater-Amplifier-2-channel-Carver-300-two_W0QQitemZ150418096798QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item23059e029e

I'm thinking of bidding on this amp. Do you know roughly what I should expect it to go for? I gather it will have sound characteristics similar to those of the B&K, and with very respectable performance if these (http://www.fixya.com/support/p9324-sunfire_300_two_amplifier/manual-22233/page-18) are the correct specs.

thall

03-06-2010, 06:26 PM

I've been running P'digm Monitor 7s for serveral years now with my Carver M-500t.
Not sure how the Monitors compare with your Studios, but I like my combination.
Power has never been an issue.

pploeser

03-06-2010, 07:51 PM

I've been running P'digm Monitor 7s for serveral years now with my Carver M-500t.
Not sure how the Monitors compare with your Studios, but I like my combination.
Power has never been an issue.

Thanks for the info. I'm impressed by the specs on the Sunfire. Still torn between that and the B&K Ref 200.2.

BTW, is your signature a Genesis reference?

sucks2beme

03-06-2010, 11:03 PM

I ran a pair of Paradigm studio 60's with both 120 wpc SS and
50WPC tube. Both seemed to drive them as loud as I wanted to hear them.
I think any quality amp sould get you there.

nooshinjohn

03-06-2010, 11:13 PM

I'm thinking of bidding on this amp. Do you know roughly what I should expect it to go for? I gather it will have sound characteristics similar to those of the B&K, and with very respectable performance if these (http://www.fixya.com/support/p9324-sunfire_300_two_amplifier/manual-22233/page-18) are the correct specs.

There are two different amps. The 600/two is a fantastic amp, but I have not seen any come up for sale in quite some time. The 300/two is a solid amp as well, and is more common. If you are able to get the 300 wpc version for 750 to 1000, you will have done well. The 600/two will be easily double that amount unless you are able to find one from someone that has no clue as to their value. I got lucky that way with mine.:)

thall

03-07-2010, 08:41 AM

BTW, is your signature a Genesis reference?

It is a line from one of my favorite Genesis recordings. Selling England by the Pound.

Rev. Hayes

03-07-2010, 10:55 AM

I'm impressed by the specs on the Sunfire. Still torn between that and the B&K Ref 200.2.

I have not listened to the sunfire but if you like it "warm" the B&K should give that to you. I'm pushing lsi9's right now with the 125.2. I tried swapping out the B&K with an Adcom yesterday because I felt it was maybe too warm for me. That lasted about half way through side one of Sketches of Spain. B&K back in... sounds great.

pploeser

03-07-2010, 10:31 PM

Well, I didn't bid on the Sunfire. I might regret this, as it went for under $600 shipped, which seems like a really good bargain. I decided to wait to see if a newer one shows up, with the 12v trigger and detachable power cord. Plus, I still haven't decided between it and the B&K. I'll probably make a move on the first one of either model that shows up on ebay or audiogon. I may be waiting a while, which is alright. Gives me time to save up :)

btw thall, Firth of Fifth is one of my favorite Genesis tracks. Genesis happens to be one of my all time favorite bands.

nooshinjohn

03-07-2010, 10:51 PM

Well, I didn't bid on the Sunfire. I might regret this, as it went for under $600 shipped, which seems like a really good bargain.

I regret it more that you know:(...

If I had known it would go that cheap, it would be on it's way to my home right now.

ViperZ

03-07-2010, 11:00 PM

Polk and Paradigm seem to be in a similar class of performance and value, so I figure this is a good place to ask for advice on amplification.

Ugh... I am sure you got a lot of good advices already, but you can't just say that Polk and Paradigm and in the same class/value. Paradigm Monitors are similar to RTi/Monitor... LSi is similar to Studio Reference.. I don't think Polk has an equivalent for Studio Signature series (top of the line Paradigm).

On topic, Carver/Sunfire, Adcom, Parasound, Rotel, Emotiva... all within your budget.

pploeser

03-08-2010, 12:06 AM

I regret it more that you know:(...

If I had known it would go that cheap, it would be on it's way to my home right now.

You might be in luck my friend.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sunfire-Home-Theater-Amplifier-2-channel-Carver-300_W0QQitemZ370344987888QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item563a480cf0#ht_682wt_1165

It looks like the exact same auction that just ended. Not sure what's up with it, but maybe you've got a second chance. IDK, but maybe I'll be fighting you for it :D

pploeser

03-09-2010, 07:51 PM

For those with B&K experience... what are the benefits of the Reference 200.2 over the Reference 4420? They seem nearly identical according to the specs, yet the 4420 can be had for much less. Are there any other notable differences, other than the 200.2 being newer? The next real step up would seem to be a pair of 200.1's for the higher current rating.

I also noticed that B&K gives their power ratings from 20Hz ~ 20kHz on the website, but @ 1kHz in the manuals. If the 20Hz ~ 20kHz spec is true, then why limit it to 1kHz in the manuals?