An important message from the Management

[kab]

Did you know that, in April, the Forum will be 16 years old?

Petulant, cocksure, abusive, self aggrandizing, impulsive, impatient, energetic, optimistic and powerful. Sound like a 16 year old?

If you’ve been around for a while, you’ve heard me say that, in creating the Forum, our goal was to give to Polk owners and hobbyists a place to share their passions, knowledge and enthusiasm. Where friendships can be made. Where old friends can stay in touch. Where visitors can find help. Where newbies can find a home. I’ve intentionally minimized Polk’s participation over the years because I didn’t want the Forum to be a “company store.” Well congratulations and thank you. The Forum has succeeded and endured beyond anything any of us could have imagined.

As many of you know, teenagers are a handful. This teenager, the Forum, has in the past 12 months seen more turbulence, more trouble and more complaints than any sustained period I can remember. I don’t know about you but it’s wearing me down. I get a half dozen emails a week from those who say they were insulted, abused or driven away by Forum members and that they were no longer interested in Polk since we obviously condone this behavior. The old adage in business is that for everyone that you hear from, there are ten with the same experience that you will never hear from.

Self policing is clearly not working. Old timers act like they own the place and want to close the door behind them. There are others that prey on the thin skinned. There's more toilet humor and profanity that at summer camp. Worst of all, there are those that throw hand-grenades just to see what happens and then claim innocence. I am perpetually amazed that an otherwise normal cordial person can get behind a keyboard and become Savonarola. We have many.

Patrick and I have talked about solutions. I’ve considered pulling the plug, but that would be a tragedy. I’ve considered closing the clubhouse since most trouble starts there; I’d hate to do that. I’ve considered enacting “police state” rules but, even if I chose to, we don’t have the eyes to evenly enforce them. So I am at a bit of a loss.

The Forum belongs to all of us and, if you care one iota about it you ought to be working to save and protect it. I’m just like you in the quagmire. Except I have a responsibility to Polk Audio and I have the plug.

“Yea right…I agree…you go Al” doesn’t cut it. The only thing I can promise you is that within the next two weeks, the tone must change or I must force change. Do you want to be a part of this or do you want to exit? Those are the only choices. Maybe you have some concrete ideas. If so, I want to hear them now. If not, stay tuned. Change is coming.

Al

[hoosier21]

A stronger hand from Polk and the mods, fair and firm actions to stop the trouble before it gets too far.

The Mods need to be identified as such, so everyone knows who they are.

A review of the rules posted here, and then a stronger enfocement of them, for everyone.

A few days or weeks of cleaning up the mess would set a new tone and set the standard from here on out.

[billbillw]

I would hate to see this forum go away. I look at the Polk Forum as being my 'first love' when it comes to the world of forums. Although I'm involved in dozens of other forums now, Polk was really the first one that I really became involved with. I've always done my best to treat the forum and other members with respect.

I hope that the trouble makers can learn to be civil or go away.

I agree with Russ, more mods and swifter firmer action is needed.

[Lorthos]

I know your a busy man, but your presence on here a little more might make everybody sit up straight in their desks:)

I've had a love hate relationship with this place, mostly love though...

But yeah, more moderation, a little zero tolerance thrown in there...

[janmike]

It is sad that you Al have had to become part of this. I hope all works out for the best.

[cfrizz]

I too would hate to have this forum close just because of a few trouble makers both OLD & new.

So yes appoint more mods those whom you deem would be fair & impartial & not swayed or scared to go after someone who has been here for years & thinks it gives them the right to say whatever they want and get away with it.

I love this board & and like & respect most of the people on here. And if this message is enough to get through to the extremely thick, skulls that are doing more harm than good around here, that would be great.

If not, then PLEASE start banning them. Again it has to be even handed & the old timers need to go as well as the newer members.

Don't worry, the rest of us who do know how to act like civilized human beings will be around to make sure that this forum continues to grow and flourish & be one of the most helpful & informative forums on audio!

[hoosier21]

It's not like I posted any new ideas, this place has always seemed to "hope" adults will act like adults, well they don't and never will.

Trouble starts, and grows and goes on till we hear from Polk or the mods how we need to act better or action will be taken, well damn, take action to begin with, that is what you are on here for.

I have never been in any meeting about how Polk wants this place policed other than a small meeting during a Polkfest, but I am sure you have an idea of what you want on here, and I know you have the right and power to make it happen, so make it happen.

[Serendipity]

I've never really had a problem with anyone on the Forum. It's a nice place to be and I've learned a lot from other members here.

What I'd like to suggest to make things easier is to split up the Clubhouse and have individual sections for certain discussions. Like an "All Things Automotive" section or "Projects" section not related to audio.

That way, we can ask for help / have discussions without interfering with other threads. I know my "Oil Change" threads and DIY thread sometimes turned into arguments when the intent was to just ask a simple question. Maybe separating these DIY (non-audio) or project threads from the general section would avoid arguments.

[xcapri79]

This forum is very valuable for both new users and experienced users of Polk Audio products.
There are some controversial technical issues that come up such as the impact of powers cords, speaker cables, and equipment interconnects on audio and video systems. It would be beneficial for all concerned if Polk Audio would provide their official position on those matters. Considering the specific market place that Polk Audio occupies what is practicable in terms of those applications?

Holding all participants to a higher standard is a laudable goal and will be appreciated by the vast majority of members on this forum.

Thank you.

[george daniel]

OK--all you guys that are reading this,but are not posting in it,,,,did you hear what the MAN SAID ????


Nuff said--everybody needs to keep their sheet wired tight--you got it?

We can all tell who's gonna contribute,,and who's just passing thru,, let the trolls and idiots go their own way,,they never stay anyway.

as we say down here,,,Ya'll hear what the man said?

[Osarion]

I've seen a lot of people ostracized for racing to 25 posts to sell something. Maybe start a newbie for sale area where post count doesn't matter. And you can raise the post count requirement for the regular for sale area. It's not a new idea as I've seen it on other boards and even mentioned here from time to time.

[wayne3burk]

I'm new here -- and i think it's a shame anyone on here who's a an old-timer would do or say anything that would leave someone with no choice but to email you or any mod and complain, to the point that they would be biased against Polks or any other product for that matter. My experience here so far has only been positive, and I don't have armadillo skin.

Is there anyway to take the servers with all the messages and all the threads and all in the info and all the history and give them to a non-profit organization. Then Polk wouldn't have their good name tarnished by the trash talkers, grenade throwers and bottom feeders?

[Serendipity]

Maybe you have some concrete ideas. If so, I want to hear them now. If not, stay tuned. Change is coming.

Al

Make the Clubhouse into smaller sub-sections.

Like I said in my previous post, there are times where a serious question turns into an argument especially with regards to home rennovations, car projects, or the like.

I'm one who will skip the argument threads and just read threads that pertain to useful info - AUDIO, for example.... or someone's DIY project that they liked to share. When such threads turn into arguments they are no fun to read.

[Lorthos]

Make the Clubhouse into smaller sub-sections.

Like I said in my previous post, there are times where a serious question turns into an argument especially with regards to home rennovations, car projects, or the like.

I'm one who will skip the argument threads and just read threads that pertain to useful info - AUDIO, for example.... or someone's DIY project that they liked to share. When such threads turn into arguments they are no fun to read.

Yes, I've suggested that too, I thought it would be nice to have a computer section...

[Pauly]

Man its sad when Al has to post that.

He has better things to worry about.

Id hate for this place to be gone after all these years, but it has become its own monster. (no pun :D)

Lay down the law guys. Im game

Pauly

[Serendipity]

Yes, I've suggested that too, I thought it would be nice to have a computer section...

How about the following:

"All Things Automotive"

"Computer Tech and Hardware"

"Household Projects"

[sucks2beme]

I've seen a lot of people ostracized for racing to 25 posts to sell something. Maybe start a newbie for sale area where post count doesn't matter. And you can raise the post count requirement for the regular for sale area. It's not a new idea as I've seen it on other boards and even mentioned here from time to time.

That's not the purpose of the forum as a cheap non-ebay .
The rules are there to protect members from fly by night
people that join just to sell. The best idea is to hide the sales area from
people not signed it. It helps to prevent people from randoming searching,
finding it, and abusing it. That leads to a lot of scamming.

I do like Club Polk, as it serves as a good place to learn basics of good sound.
Most of the tension comes from new VS. old members, true enough.
Cable debates seem to draw out the worst in people, since there isn't much
middle ground. There are forums that warn against those type of debates.
Common sense, and non absolutes in responses would hep tone things down.

[Serendipity]

Right now in the Clubhouse, I see:

- Computer Threads -
What computer program do you use for music playback?
New HTPC
Any Laptop Technicians?
Going blind reading CP forums on iPhone
33 Minute XP Installation Hangup

- Household Projects -
Heat Pump Water Heater
Cabinet doors
New system pics + house pics
I have so much storage space....
Do I install skylights in our two bathrooms?

[Knucklehead]

What happened to..."If you have nothing nice to say, don't say it at all".

[SolidSqual]

Last time someone said, "Change is coming", things didn't turn out like people Hoped.

[Serendipity]

Looking through old posts:

- Automotive Threads -
Dream Car Garage
Jeep Wrangler
How do I change my oil?
Cleaning K&N air filter?
Aftermarket exhaust system?
Nissan Maxima problems...

[stuwee]

Toe quote "Self policing is clearly not working. Old timers act like they own the place and want to close the door behind them. There are others that prey on the thin skinned. There's more toilet humor and profanity that at summer camp. Worst of all, there are those that throw hand-grenades just to see what happens and then claim innocence. I am perpetually amazed that an otherwise normal cordial person can get behind a keyboard and become Savonarola. We have many.
"

KAB, you won't get a message from me complaining about this, I'll just quietly go away, this place has more A type personalities that think post count rules all. I have read more disgusting things from the so called 'leaders' (you know who you think you are). I've wonder why it took so long for someone like you to step in. This place seems to be imploding with venom. I have an image of big orcs with pointed sticks poking at scared little hobbits.

Is that the image Club Polk should be putting forward? I'm not the only one who occacionally stops in for a read and gets sucked into an arguement with a 'Polk Master', again you know who you are! Many are sweet hearts (not because they haven't attacked myself) But because the don't attack Period. I seriously haven't seen the likes of what goes on here in any other forum in a long time....and I've been around.

Thank you for bring this up (I, as basically a outside thrid party had been wondering wtf was up here). It is a great place, I hope it all works out!

Craig :)

[Pycroft]

Hello...

Those who know me know I don't get involved in any of the crap that sometimes goes on. I keep to myself, contribute where I can, ask questions where I need, and stay happy.

You can count me in with the list of people who are relatively new...I've been here a bit over a year, and have contributed throughout my time here. You can also count me in the group that almost left a the beginning - not because I was personally picked on in any way, but because I saw some attitudes around here, and almost decided I didn't want to deal with it. Luckily I stayed.

I'd like to just say that no matter how much you change the format of the clubhouse, for sale ads, or any of the forums in any way, unless you deal specifically with specific issues (mainly specific people), issues won't go away, will just be hidden.

I agree that more moderation from the higher-ups - either in the form of warning emails, short-term/long-term/permanent bans, etc. would help keep any problems that the moderators see, in-check. Good luck.

James

[disneyjoe7]

It hardens my heart too hear this, don't feel you can please everyone every time. In saying that given Polk Audio Forum size, in the end are you making more business vs. losing business is the $64000 question. I personnel say you're Polk making more business then anything else, but whom is I? If you feel Polk needs more intervention in disciplining the forum, may I add we need more mod intervention saying what you said here or how it was stated isn't going to be exepted in the future. You set the ground rules, and people will fall in line, or people will leave.

[mrbofus]

What happened to..."If you have nothing nice to say, don't say it at all".

Agreed!!! Or at least use a civil tone in response.
I, myself not being around here all that long has asked several questions and "opinions". I have gained a lot of knowledge just by reading thru the various post of interest. It would be a shame that a few bad apples spoil the whole basket.
There seem to be those who thrive on stirring the pot, and others who seem very thin skinned. But when opinions are asked there are going to be differences, like asking which is better-FORD or CHEVY.
So as the MAN said, If we want to keep this going lets EVERYBODY act like a little more respectfully to each other. If that does not work, a little more input from the moderators and dont be afraid to WARM or BAN those members who are fueling the fires.. I have read some posts that have gone on way to long before someone said ENOUGH.
We shouldnt need the hand of BIG BROTHER AL, but apparently we do!
Lets all get it together to keep this Forum alive and well.
Greg

[George Grand]

The "Ignore" feature is a tool provided by the management, which over the last couple of years has allowed me to peacefully co-exist here. That is my opinion, I could be wrong. I think more people should employ it.

It was do or die, as Al had just had a personal, face-to-face "discussion" with about 10 of us "old-timers" about this very problem, almost two years ago at PolkFest.

[concealer404]

I don't understand how some of the "newbies" have no problems with this place, and others develop into trolls or experience epic butthurt.

Case in point, this thread:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97471

There are MULTIPLE examples like this that happen weekly. People that come here, and are highly impressed by the level of help and opinions they get. People that come here and stick around because they like the atmosphere.

I don't know. Just seems strange. I don't think this place is ever going to be without it's problems. It's just how people interact.

I like it here. I've always liked it here. The people that were ruining it for me, or started to lessen my enjoyment, are now on ignore. It's that simple. People don't use the ignore feature as much as they should.

But if it's a choice between moderation and shutting the place down, then moderate away. If it's left up to everyone shaping up their act, there's going to be a select few that will ruin it. Human nature.

[cfrizz]

Having umpteen sections for all things will NOT solve the problem with all of the bickering. And that is not what Al is talking about.

He is talking about all of the useless & derogatory threads that start whenever someone asks about an Emotiva product. Or anytime Mike LoManco starts a review thread, or someone posts 25 times to sell something. Or the immature people who are constantly (joking) with one another but using vulgar toilet comments to each other. And on & on & on.

If the OLD TIMERs who are under the impression that they own this board rather than Polk Audio would simply ignore these threads things would be better around here. Now I know some will say it would be boring, well go get your kicks SOMEWHERE else.

And if the only way you know how to talk & joke around is by using toilet humor, GO AWAY & GROW UP!

I have no patience for bullies or ignorant people whether on the internet or otherwise. These people need to clean up their act or be booted out plain & simple.

There are already good rules in place here, they simply need to be enforced across the board. Starting now there should be a PUBLIC 3 strike you are OUT quota.

You get warned 3 times publicly in the thread/s where the offenses took place, then you are permanantly banned.

If it is done publicly, EVERYONE will know who the offender is, & why & where they offended & no one will be able to claim favoritism.

[mhmacw]

of course this might be very subjective but i think as time goes on you can see from the posts who is involved with which and how many arguments. this is in essence a debate forum. when there are so many ways to do something its no longer a discussion of facts but a factual discussion. it would seem to me the same users are involved or at least have participated in the majority of the arguments. if i were to give a humble suggestion AL i would say start over the post count. or pull the plug and reset the numbers. keep the info but the post count seems to give sense of hierarchy and to me the "ive been here longer" type attitude tends to create an above the law mentality. no one is any better than anybody else here. there may be different levels of experience but not different levels of humanity. thanks AL i appreciate your forum and all it has done for my ears. kind regards, Dan

[Ricardo]

I say ban Cathy. She's the troublemaker.

[SolidSqual]

I say ban Cathy. She's the troublemaker.

I say we force all the Polk Masters to enter into Prestige Mode so they are forced to level up again.:D

[Serendipity]

But when opinions are asked there are going to be differences, like asking which is better-FORD or CHEVY.


That's why I asked for an Automotive section. Where threads like "How do I change my oil" or "Question about CV Joints and Suspension" can be posted without hearing the Ford vs. Chevy debate. Let's face it, some of us are looking for advice (audiobliss, for example) on their automotive problems and don't want the threads to turn into arguments.

[halo71]

Last time someone said, "Change is coming", things didn't turn out like people Hoped.

Same thing I was thinking! I have seen it happen on several other forums. Members don't heed the warnings, then the powers that be either step in and clean things up and leave long time members mad. Or nothing happens and the site develops a bad reputation.

I also agree that the Clubhouse should be split into subforms. And the 'new members' that come here, boost 25 posts just to sell something then they are gone, kinda rubs me the wrong way. I know they followed the rules, but its a waste of space on the forum servers to me. I think the Classifieds sections should not be visible to new members. And somehow, if possible, require the "For Sale" thingy beside the thread title. That way they could not post a for sale ad in other parts of the forum.

[Ricardo]

More forum sections is not going to make any difference. It is the attitude of some members that needs to change. Nothing wrong with some humor here or there, but sometimes we go beyond the line.

We are all adults and the message is clear. There are rules (some of them don't need to be written, it's just common sense/etiquette). Break the rules, you're out.

It will require enforcement. I'll start watching myself.

[mrbofus]

That's why I asked for an Automotive section. Where threads like "How do I change my oil" or "Question about CV Joints and Suspension" can be posted without hearing the Ford vs. Chevy debate. Let's face it, some of us are looking for advice (audiobliss, for example) on their automotive problems and don't want the threads to turn into arguments.

Understood and agreed.
I guess my point was anything asked can become controverial.
I like the 3 strike and your out idea too.

[concealer404]

of course this might be very subjective but i think as time goes on you can see from the posts who is involved with which and how many arguments. this is in essence a debate forum. when there are so many ways to do something its no longer a discussion of facts but a factual discussion. it would seem to me the same users are involved or at least have participated in the majority of the arguments. if i were to give a humble suggestion AL i would say start over the post count. or pull the plug and reset the numbers. keep the info but the post count seems to give sense of hierarchy and to me the "ive been here longer" type attitude tends to create an above the law mentality. no one is any better than anybody else here. there may be different levels of experience but not different levels of humanity. thanks AL i appreciate your forum and all it has done for my ears. kind regards, Dan

Post count isn't going to change personalities or what people post, though.

[disneyjoe7]

It will require enforcement. I'll start watching myself.

Here, Here, I agree and can be better myself. :)

[Poee7R]

The easiest way to tone things down would be to add a couple more mods. Not to say that Doro isnt good at the job, but simply spread too thin. Dont know if Russ is even around much anymore, and they were the only two I know of that are mods beyond Patrick, and in house staff.

Ive been around the internet for many many years and have seen some great and some not so great forums, this being one of my all time favorites (dont take my post count into mind, I'm more of an entertainee than an entertainer), I believe it just needs a couple more moderators, for when things go overboard.

Also whoever suggested that the For Sale forum stays hidden until so many posts, is a great idea, as alot of the people that do spam up a post count, to post something for sale create alot of negativity. Easy fix though, hide the forum until higher post count or time as a member, maybe even both.

Here's to hoping things dont change too much though, there's a reason why so many love this place.


Dave

[treitz3]

Do you want to be a part of this or do you want to exit?Al, I'd like to be a part of it.

As a "relative" new guy on campus, my opinion is just that. An opinion. Hopefully you, Patrick, Mark and others at Polk management will at least consider what ideas I'd like to present that may work. That said, here goes....

[Eyes]
You had mentioned not having enough eyes. You have many eyes available here at your grasp. This does not mean that they need to be a mod or many more mods need to be available at all hours of the day and night. What I'm saying is that we have many a member on this forum that believe in this forum and contribute regularly [in a positive fashion] that would be more than willing to be your eyes for you.

Enlist these folks on a volunteer basis and possibly give them an avenue to chat behind the scenes as to what to do or how to possibly steer a troll or an abusive string of posts into a more positive, hopefully productive discussion. This would possibly serve the forum in a more positive light and possibly prevent the thread or threads from spiraling completely out of control.

[Trolls]
It is very apparent that trolls come in and start their stirring of the pot. A relative new person to the forum can spot this a mile away as well as the old timers. When someone comes in with a personal attack like "WipeyourHeiney", in reference to Heiney9, or calls folks an ******* for no apparent reason, while at the same time spewing the same "stuff" that may or may not have anything to do with the discussion at hand that they are a troll.

Many times, the troll will stick to just one thread and that's good. Sometimes the troll will extend out to many threads and history has shown since I have been here, that a lot of those threads are the ones that get closed down. IMO, the trolls need to be dealt with immediately. This will prevent many threads and arguments from going down the drain.

[Warnings]
You may want to consider a warning system. When someone does something that is in poor taste or reflects upon the forum in a bad way [or trolls], you might want to consider a behind the scenes "warning" to shape up and start reflecting him/herself as a positive force on this forum and not a detriment. Tell them what was unacceptable so that they know exactly where they crossed the line.

The second warning I would suggest to make public. I would also like to suggest that it be issued by the moderator(s). Once again, let them know where they crossed the line so that everybody involved in the discussion knows exactly where the line was crossed. If two or more people within a thread need a warning, so be it.

The third warning would be a temporary 30 day vacation from Polk Audio, no exceptions.

The fourth and final warning would result in a permanent banning.

My only other suggestion would be that all warnings would be monitored by all "eyes", mods, admins and Polk so that everybody is on the same page and no one person can make anything personal at any point.

[25 post before you sell rule]
Simply put a new member sales section up. Those that would like to purchase anything from that section would already [one would hope] have enough sense to know that "buyer beware" in this section would be a rule of thumb. Change nothing else in the current FM as it is currently a great system.




That said, I would like to offer my time when I'm on the board to be one of the "eyes" I was referring too. I don't want pay, I don't want recognition, I don't want praise. I'd just like to help make this board a better place for all that chime in or lurk. Thank you for taking your time to read this.

[nooshinjohn]

I believe strongly that there is a concerted effort on the part of some new members to bring trouble here, and this is their only reason for joining in the first place. There has been a mission of trying to get Club Polk closed up. When a post such as yours has been made publicly admitting the possibility, they will gloat on the other boards about it. I won't single any one individual or group, but there are more than a few boards that will gleefully be discussing this and will perhaps come here to add fuel to the fire. I have seen members of other boards suggest such action and have witnessed the results here. I also believe that nearly anyone that complains to you about their treatment at the hands of the forum community would fall into this group, and have no intentions of ever owning Polk gear in the first place.

As with the body, members here react to those that come here to start trouble like antibodies to a virus and the best thing that could happen is to remove the cause of the trouble.

One of the best aspects of CP is that it has been here longer than most any other online audio community, and what I see happening is that those of us that love this place have become protective of it and other members, just as any family would. This is understandable, and even desirable.

There must be a stronger look taken at newcomers to CP. Perhaps something along the lines of a valid product serial number to gain full and immediate access to all areas of the site and a 25 post minimum for members that do not to gain access to anything other than a few areas of the board. All newbie areas should be narrowly focused to asking Polk Audio product information only. This would allow the basic character of an individual to be assessed before further access can be granted. Once they have the required number of posts to gain access to other areas, new members should be made aware upfront via an E-sign document what the rules of posting are and the conduct expected by Polk Audio. Whatever these policies are, they should be enforced equally and without malace.

Another point would be for there to be a few mods that are members. Having a few upstanding members allowed to temporarily block a troller from posting and lock threads pending further review from You, Doro and Patrick would go a long way to calming the place down. I beleive this will quickly end trolling as the ones responsible for the action will be stopped in their tracks. This would also prevent the long pissing matches that begin when long-standing members get protective of their online home.

Cp is to big a place to be administered by a relative handful of people, and has been for a very long time. I hope that it continues to thrive. I am willing to commit myself here and now to doing whatever I can to ensure that it does.

John

[Toolfan66]

There will always be good apples and bad apples that come and go. I for one have taken alot from this place, and I have spent alot of money on polk products in the last year because of this place, as well I have spent alot of money on other audio items because of this place. I have met alot of good people here that I hope one day I will get to meet face to face. So I do believe this place is working and working well for the most part.

I am not sure what would make it better other then not letting the bad apples get the best of us and being drug under there bus, and letting the mods do there job and filltering them out or just don't respond to them and let them fad away on there own. I for one will take responsibility for my own actions from time to time, and letting something get the best of me, It happens to all of us now and then.

I for one love this place and what it has to offer all of us. It is real easy to stop and look at all the negetive that happens around here, why not stop and look at all the good that goes on around here.

The karmas
The Help we give one another
The mini polk fest's that happen for other's that share the same passion.
This list can go on and on, and don't be afraid to add to my list as this needs to be seen as well.

We are human and we will make mistakes, and this goes for the mods as well as no one is perfect...

Peace to all, now go listen to some SDA's..:)



P.S Bring back Joe......;)

[tonyb]

Hmmm....I've been around awhile and can agree to the fact that trouble makers have been around since day one. That said, the agravating part, and purely my opinion, is the lack of moderators,or whoever is keeping an eye on the forum, of timely correcting situations before they get out of hand. The club has grown over the years and with it the amount of trouble makers,no news there. Would it not make sense to have more mods? We need to be more proficient at nipping things alittle quicker rather than waiting for 10 pages of B.S. with tempers flairing higher at every page. I'm not privey to the inner workings of how the forum is watched, but I do think appointing more mods can only help. This forum has been a huge benefit to not only those in quest of knowledge,but to polk audio themselves also and would be a shame to see that end. We all know as a public forum,it's hard to control who walks in the door,but you can control who walks out. We just need to do it on a more timely basis. Just my .02 is all.

[Serendipity]

The easiest way to tone things down would be to add a couple more mods.

+1

I have no issues with anyone here and think it is a great community. If the forum needs a hand, I have no problems with helping out in this regard. Please contact me if that's what the forum is looking for. I would like to help out as a mod if possible.

[fatchowmein]

I wonder if the state of the global economy is causing the general feeling of malaise and hostility around here. Regardless of what is done, we may be looking at the Dark Ages on the forum until the good times roll again.

[Sherardp]

I would definitely hate to see the forum go away. I usually come here first after getting in the office, post in a couple threads and read up on things I missed due to the time difference. I made allot of good friendships here, not to mention everyone here is so down to earth. I get allot of answers to my questions when needed, so the knowledge base is extremely important to me. Whatever is done, I hope shutting down the forums is not the decision made.

[Demiurge]

What does Polk expect to happen when there are basically only two guys running this place? I know there are more than that, but face it -- dorokusai and Patrick C (who I assume has many more responsibilities) are the only two who openly get involved here on a regular basis that anyone can see. Until recently, it was only the old guard who knew dorokusai was a moderator.

In the face of this lack of moderation, you have people who feel very strongly about this forum taking it upon themselves to police it. Few were qualified and many were not. For better or worse, they used the tools that were at their disposal and that often got ugly. Again, what do you expect? These people do not have the ability to lock threads, issue temporary bans, or have any real influence through private message.

You need more moderators, and unless there's an internal policy I'm not privy to -- they don't need to be people collecting a paycheck from Polk Audio.

This place completely lacks direction. If I was Polk I would look to the people who helped mold this forum into the great place it is (or was, if you're feeling cynical). Many of those folks have simply left already. Polk's problem isn't simply placating new folks, which forgive me for saying, seems to be the track Polk has taken of late.


Old timers act like they own the place and want to close the door behind them.

It's comments like this that make me cynical about the future here. While nobody but Polk owns this forum, you cannot deny that there are many folks out there who have put a lot into this place, be it money, time, or knowledge. They did it for nothing other than to make friends and have a place to hang out.

As I said above, you'd do well to throw them a bone. Without them, this place is just another forum.

[Serendipity]

More forum sections is not going to make any difference.

Why not? IMO, one of the reasons a lot of the threads in the Clubhouse turn into arguments is because they mix with a lot of other things. I've seen politics interweaved with automotive threads. If we keep the sections to useful topics, such as "Household DIY Projects", "Automotive Questions", or "Computer Help", there may be fewer debates. Such threads that are serious inquiries should be separated from the politics, etc. If there's no room for it, it (arguments) won't happen.

[kevhed72]

If you would not say something to somebody in person, then you should not type it on a keyboard. As a "novice" at best on this forum, I would be bummed if it shut down because I believe this forum has the best knowledge base of any audio-video related forum on the net.

just my .02

[nooshinjohn]

More mods would certainly help stop the CVV-Dumps and unlocked I-Phone threads we get these days...

[Rivrrat]

Here's my .02.

I'm a mod on another board's political forum, and when I was drafted for the job it made this place look like romper room.

Yes I think we need more mods, I also think they need to be identified as mods. I don't know what powers they have, but their powers need to be posted for the forum to see.

We (4 of us) cleaned up that forum by deleting posts, deleting sentences, locking threads at the first sign of trouble, and nobody got banned. Some left over "heavy handed" moderation, but they're the ones that caused the problems anyway.

Basically there needs to be more deputies, and they need to be visible.

[Lasareath]

Starting now there should be a PUBLIC 3 strike you are OUT quota.

You get warned 3 times publicly in the thread/s where the offenses took place, then you are permanantly banned.

If it is done publicly, EVERYONE will know who the offender is, & why & where they offended & no one will be able to claim favoritism.


If this was in play from 3 years ago then most likely I would be gone. Thank God it wasn't!

But I can calm down, I can be a respectful person. I can follow the "new" rules.


I like this. but maybe it's a little too harsh. maybe more like this:

2 Times publicly

Next Offense (1) Week Ban

4th Offense Perma-Ban



Here are some of my thoughts on other subjects

Moderating the Forum

Sorry to say Al, but this forum needs 24 hour monitoring. You need Mods who are looking at every single thread 24 hours a day. Now is that 3 mods that you pay a salary to. I'm not sure.

Are they (3) Forum members or (15) members, I don't know and thank god I don't have to figure that out.

Maybe the forum needs to be shut-down from 6pm to 8am every night?


Here are my thoughts about the For-Sale Section:

I think that nobody should be able to sell anything here unless they have been here for 2 weeks minimum. this will stop people climbing to 25 posts in one hour so they can sell something. Let those people go to craigslist or ebay.


Spammers

New Members cannot post URL's

New Members cannot post more than 500 characters.

No signature codes, No IMG.

When that new member reaches 2 weeks then they can post URLs, more than 500 Characters and sell items.

Any account that is 7 days old and has never posted anything will be automatically deleted. this will stop spammers from creating accounts just to post URLs in 15 days.

Any acct that has not posted anything in 90 days should be deleted. There are thousands of them. These people can create new accts if they need to ask another question.


Multiple Sections in the Clubhouse?

That sounds like a good idea but will it limit fighting?

I don't think so, It would be nice to have a computer section and a DIY section but you will still have people who think your way is wrong and they will make every attempt to try to change your mind.



I think we need an out right rule that states no confrontations

If you start confrontations then you get your first warning.

[VR3]

I think to join you need to have owned Polk speakers and need to provide serial numbers.

Just like when I joined... I think that will fix alot of problems - people who do not own polks can read and ask questions in a tech based forum pertaining to polk

[xcapri79]

Many of us are guilty of "one-up-manship" here. Many of us have big ego's and can get carried away.
The situation turns circular. More deletion of posts and threads will send a strong message about their acceptability.

I think that when major differences occur, using private messages are a better idea than using a public board. Being positive has positive consequences and the converse is true too.

I think to join you need to have owned Polk speakers and need to provide serial numbers.

Just like when I joined... I think that will fix alot of problems - people who do not own polks can read and ask questions in a tech based forum pertaining to polk

Sounds like a good idea to me, but is it practicable on Polk's end?

[Serendipity]

If the Clubhouse were just these five sections, for example:

"Automotive Questions"
"Computer Tech and Hardware"
"Household Projects"
"Multimedia - Post your YouTube / home videos here"
"Hobbies, Reviews, and your Weekend"

Would there be any room for politics?

[concealer404]

If the Clubhouse were just these five sections, for example:

"Automotive Questions"
"Computer Tech and Hardware"
"Household Projects"
"Multimedia - Post your YouTube / home videos here"
"Hobbies, Reviews, and your Weekend"

Would there be any room for politics?

There are still plenty of things to argue about, there... Personally, and i may be seeing something different, but i don't see politics to be a big issue here. Someone posts something political, and it gets reported. That's about the end of it. It doesn't even seem to happen often.

[nooshinjohn]

Someone posts something political, and it gets reported. That's about the end of it. It doesn't even seem to happen often.

REPORTED for using the word politics;):p...

[Zitro]

I love this board & and like & respect most of the people on here. And if this message is enough to get through to the extremely thick, skulls that are doing more harm than good around here, that would be great.

If not, then PLEASE start banning them. Again it has to be even handed & the old timers need to go as well as the newer members.

Don't worry, the rest of us who do know how to act like civilized human beings will be around to make sure that this forum continues to grow and flourish & be one of the most helpful & informative forums on audio!

Agreed with cfrizz. I am obviously a very new member, but this forums has done a lot for me in terms of teaching, advice and making informed decisions. Not to mention, it's the only place I go when I want to talk strictly audio, as lets face it, I don't know about you guys, but most of my friends couldn't care less about sound quality. So, when I want to talk hifi, I come here. It would really suck to see this place go, as I'm really enjoying it and have had a lot of fun with it. Not to mention I learn a lot about my hobby through it.

I'm a member of a few forums myself, but this one feels different; it really does feel like a family in a weird way. As bad as this forum can get sometimes, it has easily been the most helpful forum out of all of the ones I'm a part of. It helped keep my interest going, and honestly, I knew a lot less about audio than I do now after joining this forum. So, to those who may be causing some trouble (as we all do from time to time): for the sake of those who have found this forum a very helpful, fun place, please follow the rules! I would hate to see Club Polk go...

[Serendipity]

There are still plenty of things to argue about, there... Personally, and i may be seeing something different, but i don't see politics to be a big issue here. Someone posts something political, and it gets reported. That's about the end of it. It doesn't even seem to happen often.

I may be seeing it incorrectly too... but in the first post, Al talked about "shutting down the Clubhouse." I looked through the Clubhouse and basically see 5 or 6 different types of useful threads:

Cars
Computers
Household Projects
Multimedia (Pics, Videos, etc.)
Hobbies (photography, fishing, etc.)
Happenings (snow shoveling)

Why not just make it specific sections?

[Fireman32]

I would hate to see this place shut down. This is my homepage both at home and at work. I stay out of alot of the threads because I choose to. I am not going to get involved in a argument if I dont need to. I have met alot of good people through this forum and look foward to Polkfest every year and any other gatherings that happen with the local polkies.

I do think change is needed. I argree that we need more mods. Mark and Patrick cant handle it all alone and its not fair to them to have all the resonsobility on the their shoulders alone. If there are more mods to help out it may make things go more smoothly around here. I would be more than happy to help out if needed. If not then I will try to stay out of any trouble.

As far as the for sale section mabye we need to up the post count from 25 to 50 or a you have to be here for a period of time. We have alot of long term members here with a very low post count so mabye a time frame before you can sell would be better. Mabye 60 days and a 50 post count would deter ther people that just want to sell there stuff and move on.

Dave

[Toolfan66]

REPORTED for using the word politics;):p...

He used the word political not politics...;)

[Lasareath]

As I said above, you'd do well to throw them a bone. Without them, this place is just another forum.


Well Said! +1

[Rivrrat]

Maybe another part of the solution would be to make the clubhouse for approved members only. that way the casual person looking for info on Polks forum isn't going to see the antics going on in the clubhouse, and the regular members get to play.

[nooshinjohn]

He used the word political not politics...;)

read the whole post.:D

[cfrizz]

[Trolls]
It is very apparent that trolls come in and start their stirring of the pot. A relative new person to the forum can spot this a mile away as well as the old timers. When someone comes in with a personal attack like "WipeyourHeiney", in reference to Heiney9, or calls folks an ******* for no apparent reason, while at the same time spewing the same "stuff" that may or may not have anything to do with the discussion at hand that they are a troll.

Many times, the troll will stick to just one thread and that's good. Sometimes the troll will extend out to many threads and history has shown since I have been here, that a lot of those threads are the ones that get closed down. IMO, the trolls need to be dealt with immediately. This will prevent many threads and arguments from going down the drain.

And WHO decides who is a troll? This is the label anyone gets who dares to mention Emotiva. Then a certain few jump all over them rather than simply ignore the whole thread.

Same with the posters who are simply looking to up their post count to sell something. Simple answer is ignore them & they will go away. But too many times, certain people try to be the tough guys & trouble starts.




It's comments like this that make me cynical about the future here. While nobody but Polk owns this forum, you cannot deny that there are many folks out there who have put a lot into this place, be it money, time, or knowledge. They did it for nothing other than to make friends and have a place to hang out.

As I said above, you'd do well to throw them a bone. Without them, this place is just another forum.

Sorry Demi, but it is some of these very same people who cause the most problems, and always have.

I DON'T CARE how much time/money/knowledge they have put in here it doesn't make their behavior right. Too many bones have been tossed their way & they have been allowed to get away with too much which is why the forum is in the state it's in.

It is only a few, the vast majority of the long time members on here know how to conduct themselves & I don't believe that this forum will collapse & die without the troublemakers.

Many have already left and the forum HAS continue to grow. There are many on here myself included who will continue to help newbies put together the best systems that they can because that is why we are here. To HELP and contribute positively to this forum. Not to stroke & boost our own egos.

That is the point of Al's post. It is his responsibility to do what is in the best interest of Polk Audio not about thowing some long time bully a bone at the expense of Polks reputation.

[concealer404]

I may be seeing it incorrectly too... but in the first post, Al talked about "shutting down the Clubhouse." I looked through the Clubhouse and basically see 5 or 6 different types of useful threads:

Cars
Computers
Household Projects
Multimedia (Pics, Videos, etc.)
Hobbies (photography, fishing, etc.)
Happenings (snow shoveling)

Why not just make it specific sections?

Because it's not going to solve anything, as far as i can tell? Separating into sections doesn't stop arguments. It just moves those arguments into specific sections.

[shadowofnight]

Consider this forum your workplace or local bar....or even the grocery store...basically anywhere people gather publicly.

If everyone did that it would be fine.

If you wouldnt say what you wanted to type here in a thread to somebody face to face...for whatever repercussion...be it you would get fired...get charged with sexual harassment...or even get your ass beat...dont say it here.

This has been an age old problem ( Well since the internet sprung up :) ) with people typing behind keyboards...there is that buffer zone of protection ...just like some drivers...the little old lady that teaches sunday school who flips every body off ...cuts em off...and blows her horn at everybody...while she is behind the wheel.

You guys can talk about new sections of the forum...new requirements for newbies to sell.....etc None of it will work...the only thing that works is knowing that if you break the rules...that there will be a price to pay.


Its the way law has worked since the dawn of time, make the punishment stiff enough ...and people think twice about doing the crime.


I mean look at it like this...a newbie signs up...screen name joelikestoknit234 ,
says expensive cables is too much money spent for little gain...he likes his radio shack cables...nothing derogatory...just his honest opinion....in the next 7 posts he gets responses of " Douchbag "...etc....you have all seen it time and again.

You wouldnt walk up to joelikestoknit234 in radio shack and call him a douchbag...you dont even know who he is in the forum ...and in radio shack you dont know who he is either...but you get a visual...something you dont get here on the forum. I bring up kniting because I knew a joe while fighting that used to knit...I kid you not :p

I could call him a sissy for knitting, but if polkmaster67534 with 7,000 posts walked up to him in radio shack and looked him in the eye and called him a douchbag...well...it just wouldnt happen.


Thats my simple point , make an attempt to treat people with the same respect on the forum as you would in a face to face encounter...newbie or master....that will take you far.

Everybody I have met from this forum in person , either face to face or in a group setting ..have been really cool people....and thats all you hear from everybody else who have done the same with their own FTF's and group gatherings.....lets not ruin a good thing here people.

And yes... people face to face have some humor in conversations, lets also not make this a boring sterile environment either...some of you owe me keyboards. :D


John

[mhmacw]

Post count isn't going to change personalities or what people post, though.

you are correct conceler404. what it will do is lessen the following by those that are new and dont know who to take seriously. by zeroing out the post count you in essence take the "im right no matter what i say" out of the equation. this would cause people to either be polite or be ignored by the incoming members. of course the existing members would stillknow who they are but then the true colors would shine. when trouble makers and know it alls are ignored, they push and by pushing they woud be easier to pick out and excuse from the club.

[concealer404]

And WHO decides who is a troll? This is the label anyone gets who dares to mention Emotiva. Then a certain few jump all over them rather than simply ignore the whole thread.



I really don't think it's that bad. As a matter of fact, there's two threads going on right now that have no angst or anything in them, even though they have the word Emotiva mentioned. I don't know how many times we all have to point out that it's not the brand that's an issue.

If the thread is ignored, then the person who asked the original question is being disserviced.

But i agree, people should be able to share their opinions and move on. But that also applies for everyone.

[concealer404]

you are correct conceler404. what it will do is lessen the following by those that are new and dont know who to take seriously. by zeroing out the post count you in essence take the "im right no matter what i say" out of the equation. this would cause people to either be polite or be ignored by the incoming members. of course the existing members would stillknow who they are but then the true colors would shine. when trouble makers and know it alls are ignored, they push and by pushing they woud be easier to pick out and excuse from the club.

I still fail to see how a post count covers up true colors. It's a number. It doesn't matter. Just because some people might have a high post count doesn't mean that they think they're better. Any moron can post on the internet. Look at me, for instance.

The post count only matters to the wrong people. Get my drift?

[Toolfan66]

Well Said!!! :cool:





Consider this forum your workplace or local bar....or even the grocery store...basically anywhere people gather publicly.

If everyone did that it would be fine.

If you wouldnt say what you wanted to type here in a thread to somebody face to face...for whatever repercussion...be it you would get fired...get charged with sexual harassment...or even get your ass beat...dont say it here.

This has been an age old problem ( Well since the internet sprung up :) ) with people typing behind keyboards...there is that buffer zone of protection ...just like some drivers...the little old lady that teaches sunday school who flips every body off ...cuts em off...and blows her horn at everybody...while she is behind the wheel.

You guys can talk about new sections of the forum...new requirements for newbies to sell.....etc None of it will work...the only thing that works is knowing that if you break the rules...that there will be a price to pay.


Its the way law has worked since the dawn of time, make the punishment stiff enough ...and people think twice about doing the crime.


I mean look at it like this...a newbie signs up...screen name joelikestoknit234 ,
says expensive cables is too much money spent for little gain...he likes his radio shack cables...nothing derogatory...just his honest opinion....in the next 7 posts he gets responses of " Douchbag "...etc....you have all seen it time and again.

You wouldnt walk up to joelikestoknit234 in radio shack and call him a douchbag...you dont even know who he is in the forum ...and in radio shack you dont know who he is either...but you get a visual...something you dont get here on the forum. I bring up kniting because I knew a joe while fighting that used to knit...I kid you not :p

I could call him a sissy for knitting, but if polkmaster67534 with 7,000 posts walked up to him in radio shack and looked him in the eye and called him a douchbag...well...it just wouldnt happen.


Thats my simple point , make an attempt to treat people with the same respect on the forum as you would in a face to face encounter...newbie or master....that will take you far.

Everybody I have met from this forum in person , either face to face or in a group setting ..have been really cool people....and thats all you hear from everybody else who have done the same with their own FTF's and group gatherings.....lets not ruin a good thing here people.

And yes... people face to face have some humor in conversations, lets also not make this a boring sterile environment either...some of you owe me keyboards. :D


John

[Serendipity]

Because it's not going to solve anything, as far as i can tell? Separating into sections doesn't stop arguments. It just moves those arguments into specific sections.

Again, I may be wrong - I've only been here for 3 years, but in the past few I noticed most of the arguments are starting in threads that are not part of the 6 things I mentioned.

Things like "snow shoveling" or "Trip to Utah" or even "What is Overclocking" don't really get into heated arguments. Same with "DIY ceiling project" and "Kitchen," etc.

[Zitro]

I can't help but wonder if there is a reason that there aren't more mods? Seems rather odd, given the size of this forum. Maybe a policy on Polks end?

I remember maybe the first or second day I was a member, I was going through the system showcase (a great feauture btw) and pmed Mark (Doro) a general question about the Quads he had. He answered me, and gave me some great advice in general about my relatively young audio journey, and I listened and it helped me greatly. New guys need stuff like that, and this forum is full of it. Help keep the passion alive by keeping CP alive!

[concealer404]

I dunno. It's the clubhouse. It's for off-topic discussion. Seems to go against the point if you put restrictions on it. I can understand politics and religion, but otherwise?

And honestly, the worst arguments i've seen in off topic were automotive related.

[treitz3]

And WHO decides who is a troll?Any one of the proposed "eyes", mods or admins. It would be easily detected by a reported post that could be made by any member of the forum.

The definition of an internet troll [or trolling], which is currently against CP rules...

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]

Trolls are easily spotted from a mile away. If a troll is warned and other mods,admins, or Polk management deems the decision too harsh or without merit? The decision can always be withdrawn and the posters record wiped clean for that particular violation.

[danger boy]

sad that Al had to write this stern message the the forum. But it was coming sooner or later. Yes things have gotten out of hand.. and Polk's original idea of providing a place for us to meet and get some education is sorely turned into romper room on crack.

I could go on and on about what I think should happen.. but i'll keep it brief.

Everything has a shelf life of XX number of years... then it's time to say goodbye and pay our respects to what it was like and how much fun it was. I'd hate to see club Polk forum close and just be a good memory for me. That would be a shame... and I know many of you agree and don't want to see that happen.

I can only offer this suggestion. The policy I would like to see enacted is this. You get one warning that your behavior is not acceptable. Second time you're out/banned for life. No if's and's or buts. One warning and then you're out if you continue to be a problem, because there will not be a second warning.

Al
Danger Boy

[shack]

It never ceases to amaze me that people "get their feelings hurt" on an internet forum. :rolleyes:

[disneyjoe7]

It seems that Al doesn't like to get email's about the forum, then I think he needs more mods members.

[Huck344]

Out of curiosity, why is there even a post count? I mean, I understand the general concept, but it seems that sometimes the attitude is that deference must be given to someone with 1k or 5k or 10k posts. Just because someone has a ton of posts doesn't mean that they know more than the next guy (or gal). It just means they've been around longer. Longevity does not necessarily equate to knowledge.

[Serendipity]

I dunno. It's the clubhouse. It's for off-topic discussion. Seems to go against the point if you put restrictions on it. I can understand politics and religion, but otherwise?

I'm just saying that if we don't have sections for threads that usually turn into arguments, then a good portion of those threads will not be posted. Definitely will see fewer politics and religion threads, and if we don't have a "News" section there won't be as much arguing over controversial topics.

[joeparaski]

I think most trouble makers actually don't know that they are causing trouble.
Trolls don't really think they're trolling, at least not always.
Hundreds of different people with different personalities...things will not always be smooth.

Joe

[Zitro]

I'm just saying that if we don't have sections for threads that usually turn into arguments, then a good portion of those threads will not be posted. Definitely will see fewer politics and religion threads, and if we don't have a "News" section there won't be as much arguing over controversial topics.

If there is no news section where will all the Jstas stories go? lol ;)

[shack]

If one pays any attention to a forum post count...or if it has any significance at all to one's life, pro or con...then one seriously needs a life.

I sincerely :rolleyes: hope I haven't hurt anyone's feelings.

[Demiurge]

Sorry Demi, but it is some of these very same people who cause the most problems, and always have.

I DON'T CARE how much time/money/knowledge they have put in here it doesn't make their behavior right. Too many bones have been tossed their way & they have been allowed to get away with too much which is why the forum is in the state it's in.

It is only a few, the vast majority of the long time members on here know how to conduct themselves & I don't believe that this forum will collapse & die without the troublemakers.

Many have already left and the forum HAS continue to grow. There are many on here myself included who will continue to help newbies put together the best systems that they can because that is why we are here. To HELP and contribute positively to this forum. Not to stroke & boost our own egos.

That is the point of Al's post. It is his responsibility to do what is in the best interest of Polk Audio not about thowing some long time bully a bone at the expense of Polks reputation.

Cathy, I don't actually disagree with you, but I think you're misinterpreting my comments a bit.

My suggestion was that Polk should look to the people who have been here for a long time and have contributed much to the forum in a positive way as people to add to the ranks. It doesn't mean that anyone who has been here for a long time is automatically qualified for that task.

I think we need more people to step in when people get out of hand jumping on someone new who doesn't deserve it. Equally, we need more people to step in and deal with new folks who are disrespectful. Both happen far too much around here.

The reason? Lack of moderation. I guarantee the gnashing of teeth and claws will subside when people know that someone is handling it. Right now that's not happening very well due to the lack of supervision.

New folks have all the same opportunities to fit in that the rest of us had when we first started. Honestly, nothing has changed other than the forum getting larger.

There are many folks in this thread who have only been here a year or two who I would consider great assets to the forum.

How did they manage to fit in?

[shadowofnight]

[Warnings]
You may want to consider a warning system. When someone does something that is in poor taste or reflects upon the forum in a bad way [or trolls], you might want to consider a behind the scenes "warning" to shape up and start reflecting him/herself as a positive force on this forum and not a detriment. Tell them what was unacceptable so that they know exactly where they crossed the line.

The second warning I would suggest to make public. I would also like to suggest that it be issued by the moderator(s). Once again, let them know where they crossed the line so that everybody involved in the discussion knows exactly where the line was crossed. If two or more people within a thread need a warning, so be it.

The third warning would be a temporary 30 day vacation from Polk Audio, no exceptions.

The fourth and final warning would result in a permanent banning.

My only other suggestion would be that all warnings would be monitored by all "eyes", mods, admins and Polk so that everybody is on the same page and no one person can make anything personal at any point.

[25 post before you sell rule]
Simply put a new member sales section up. Those that would like to purchase anything from that section would already [one would hope] have enough sense to know that "buyer beware" in this section would be a rule of thumb. Change nothing else in the current FM as it is currently a great system.



Both of those would be a HUGE benefit to the forum.

[danger boy]

throwing this idea out about our own behavior.

only one rule. behave like you would if you were in church/house of worship. on your best behavior. a place you would not argue with someone, a place you would not go off on someone because you didn't agree with them. A place you would not drop the f-bomb.. etc. you get my point. just be on your best behavior. I know it's tough for some folks, but give it a try.

[MrNightly]

I have gotten pretty busy with life, but still come here to enjoy a laugh as often as possible.

I think that it is pretty apparent that the board isn't policed "Equally." You get guys banned who are fine upstanding members but who might have lost their cool and yet other guys who can blatantly post multiple threads against the judgment of every single contributing member, and they get DEFENDED by the mods... that is ludicrous. I don't care who you are in business, without us, POLK wouldn't be around.

Not saying you need to kiss your customer's ass, but how about ruling them all fairly on the forum? If you are complaining Al, about receiving half a dozen (6) emails a week from people upset, that seems pretty good to me for the size of Polk Audio. I run a company, and complaints happen. If the good doesn't out weight the bad, shut it down... No biggie. However, I can't help but think that the good here FAR FAR FAR outweighs 6 complaints a week.

It seems that maybe the drama starts at the top... who posts a thread about too much drama, that only starts drama? :) Put the pieces in place to control the situation if you think it's out of hand.. and state what the rules are... and if someone doesn't follow the rules, it's over. This is 2010 though, and forums and online chatting/banter is abundant no matter WHERE you go. Hell, even Facebook has rantings and fights over posts... welcome to the new century. Grow some thicker skin and put the safe guards on how you want your company to look in place, and then do it. All the talk about it is just a sign of weakness to me.

[dorourke07]

Since this is a corporate site, heavy handed moderation is ok and could help us stay on topic in some cases. Also, maybe instead of posts for access to areas a time limit can be set. Maybe after a few weeks different areas of the forum could open up more areas with the sales area last. If you are into audio you get a start and from there the whole experience opens up.

[Ricardo]

only one rule. behave like you would if you were in church/house of worship.

Sorry Al, but that would be a bit too much.

(Bless you).

[Serendipity]

I'd like to be a moderator if possible.

[EFanning]

I respectfully ask that the Polk marketing team make a quick note of the statements below before deciding on the future of this forum:

If Club Polk goes dark, I'd be much, much less likely to buy Polk Audio products.

I was pulled into the Polk product world because of this forum. I've purchased Polk speakers because of this forum.

I have an unusually high level of respect for Polk because of this forum.

I visit every day.

[Polkersince85]

This is Polk's forum. The right of free speech only applies to the U.S government's limitation on it's citizens. We need to be thankful Polk spends the time and money to keep this forum on line. We all have a responsibility to promote the goodwill and products of Polk Audio. With any business expenditure, there has to be a return on investment.

My recommendations would be change the Troubleshooting area to Customer Service/Troubleshooting. This area is where a lot of recent customers come for questions and help. Limit the posts to the OP and Polk. There may be a better chance to provide a more favorable opinion of the site by doing this.

The "Report this Post" should be changed to "Suspend this Thread" available to everyone. It would stop a thread in it's tracks. The thread could then be reviewed by Mods for follow through. If the function is abused by a member, then the Mod could handle that issue also. This would give the mods a lot more eyes on the board. The decision of the Mod would rule.

[brettw22]

Again, I may be wrong - I've only been here for 3 years, but in the past few I noticed most of the arguments are starting in threads that are not part of the 6 things I mentioned.You've made your point about the clubhouse 5x now....safe to say it's been heard. I would disagree with the subforums because this is an audio forum. It's not a youtube forum, a car repair forum, etc. etc.. The reason the Clubhouse even exists is for all the other stuff that doesn't fit into the other audio aligned subforums.

As for Polk posting their opinions on power cables, etc......fat chance....lol.....you think that everyone that works at Polk agrees on these things just because they work there? It's subjective, and worth each person doing whatever testing they want to do to see what they do/do not like.


It seems that Al doesn't like to get email's about the forum, then I think he needs more mods members.I don't know where you interpreted his post as he doesn't liek to get emails. What he dosn't like is the reasons that many of those emails exist in the first place...there's a difference. Someone of Al's level in the company shouldn't have to post here at all like his initial post of this thread.

These threads have happened over the years and I think the problem is that the same people that perpetuate the problems still are allowed to remain members. I don't like a 3 warning system then you're out because that's been said/done before and look where this place is again. I think you get a single warning (with renewed intensity of enforcement of the rules), and after that, bounce. It's time to clean house because, as has been shown in the past and the fact that this thread exists, stern warnings don't seem to work.

[BobMcG]

Holly cow! Have I been away too long! I had no idea that things in here were reaching a boiling point. A quick look around didn't give me that impression...

Oh well, the Club's been to this stage numerous times during the last 16 yrs but it's capable of surviving this rough time as well.

All IMO of course: Perhaps there are a couple of things that could be done to help the site carry on. Probably the single biggest change would be to setup the Polk Forums to be more like a lot of other sites (at least ones I'm familiar with) in as much as having a good team of moderators and supplying them with the tools to work with. IE: Being able to, lock threads, delete threads/posts, sanction/punish or banish. These mods are labeled as such and stationed around the clock with certain areas of the forum assigned to them. Some sites also have strict guidelines/limits placed on newcomers during a period of probation. Maybe this would help Polk with some issues too.

IMO again, Polk's site seems to be broken down into appropriate audio related forums quite well as it stands. What I can't see working to any great advantage is making a whole bunch of smaller sub forums in the Clubhouse forum. I can't realistically see that resulting in a reduction of friction. More clutter maybe, (& more forums for the mods to keep up with) but not less friction.

BTW: The idea to close accounts for being inactive for X # of days wouldn't be a new feature getting my vote by any stretch. It also wouldn't change the friction problems being experienced one bit either.

Just my two cents.

[Serendipity]

I would disagree with the subforums because this is an audio forum. It's not a youtube forum, a car repair forum, etc. etc..


Ok. I agree this is an audio forum and not a car forum, etc.

But then why do we have the "Video Games" section?

Ever notice the "Video Games" section get out of control?

[concealer404]

Because video games have sound...

[brettw22]

My point is to say that they could go crazy and create hundreds of other littler forums and to what point? The problems here are personality driven, not because we don't have a youtube forum to create our youtube posts into.

[Serendipity]

My point is to say that they could go crazy and create hundreds of other littler forums and to what point? The problems here are personality driven, not because we don't have a youtube forum to create our youtube posts into.

Then:
1. Attitudes/personalities need to change, or
2. Take away the Clubhouse.

[nadams]

BobMcG- Nice to see you again! Haven't seen you around lately. Pity it has to be in a thread like this...

[Roy Munson]

The "Ignore" feature is a tool provided by the management, which over the last couple of years has allowed me to peacefully co-exist here. That is my opinion, I could be wrong. I think more people should employ it.

It was do or die, as Al had just had a personal, face-to-face "discussion" with about 10 of us "old-timers" about this very problem, almost two years ago at PolkFest.

After five years here I had to put a member on "ignore", I didn't really want to but after being called an ******* by this guy because I voiced an opinion just rubbed me the wrong way. I've seen it happen hundreds of times to others and I think GG has the right approach about using the "ignore" feature. I also agree more people should use it because there are several people here that are serial offenders that seem to be at the center of many of the threads that turn bad.

This is really a great forum for audio related discussions and a lot can be learned here not only about the technical aspects of audio but the fun parts also. And dare I say there's a bit of camaraderie that makes it enjoyable to hang out at CP and it would be a real shame if the forum were to be closed down because of trolls that want to do harm to the forum or people that come here only to buy or sell something.

I think we definitely need more moderators to watch over the forum to facilitate swifter action when called for. This would probably displease some of the members here that have been here a long time but if it helps save the forum then so be it. We have rules about political discussions yet they aren't followed and this leads to many threads turning into flame wars and bad feelings. It seems to me that some here just can't post without injecting their political slant and it needs to be dealt with..either ban political discussions and police it or start a political section and let the chips fall..I personally think a political section would be a bad thing.

Something needs to be done about the flea market in regards to new members wanting to buy or sell gear. Perhaps having it restricted and not visible until a specific amount of time or posts would be appropriate. This wouldn't make it 100% safe to purchase here but it would help keep people away that only come here to sell and then disappear never to be heard from again. I think this causes ill will and makes members feel used.

[brettw22]

Serendipity......you're fixating on the 'need' for 5, 10, 20, whatever subforums solving the problems......taking away the Clubhouse isn't going to solve that, because the Clubhouse type of threads will end up in different parts of the board (this is how it was before the Clubhouse was ever created).

The ENTIRE point of this thread is that Attitudes need to change.......and if they don't change, they need to be walked to the door.

[Serendipity]

The ENTIRE point of this thread id that Attitudes need to change.......and if they don't change, they need to be walked to the door.

Ok, thanks. I wasn't really clear what this was about at first.

[brettw22]

Perhaps I misspoke there........that may not be the entire point of the thread........but what causes the problems is the personalities and how people handle themselves.....adding or subtracting different sub-forums doesn't solve the problem of someone who's out to be a putz being allowed to act like a putz.

[BobMcG]

Hello Noah, It's been a while. Good to see you're still on board.

Yup, I leave this place for a while and it goes to hell in a hand-basket.



AND BTW: I did forget in my previous post to say that Gman is spot on with the ignore button. Powerful little button there. Some people would be best served to use it more often. It's worked wonders for me in the past.

[kcoc321]

First I have to say, I was not personally aware that things had gotten so bad. But then I tend to skip threads that I have not interest in, so therein may lie my ignorance.

But if the VP of marketing of Polk thinks it is a problem, then there is a problem. I think some good ideas have been raised. And some bad. I agree with the sales time condition, with the limits on post length ect. I do not agree on the "wiping out the post count" I use it to help gauge someone's input. If I have any question, I look back at what they have posted. And I think the "old timers" deserve there credit for all they have contributed.

I second (or 30th) the three strike rule. Especially in what is a 'transitional time' Things are changing, people need to have a chance to adapt.

I have also seen 'sanctions' work effectively in conjuction with 3 strikes. If someone is just being a 'troll for a day', strike one is they get limited in what they can post, for say a 1-2 week period. Strike two they are reduced to only being able to reply in threads, not create new ones. Stops them from being able to start fights. Strike three, bye bye.

More Moderators would also help. It does not need to be a paid moderator, several people have already volunteered to assist. I don't see the need for Polk to spend money on something that we can do ourselves.

Another thing I have seen on Forums that grew to need more 'policing' was a "toilet" and a "war zone". Threads/ posts that get off line can be moved there, if they still have some merit. The war zone give ppl a place to vent, in an approved location.

I hope that things can be resolved such that this place can continue to be such a treasure chest of information. I have been a Polk fan since 1984, ever since I bought my first pair and I will continue to be. Club Polk adds to what are good products and makes it great. Where else can you find this level of support? Virtually no where.
THANK YOU POLK.

[Fireman32]

Lets not turn this thread into an argument. Let everyone vioce their opinion and Al will decide what to do.

[concealer404]

Then:
1. Attitudes/personalities need to change, or
2. Take away the Clubhouse.


The Clubhouse alone isn't even close to being a major part of the problem, though... i think that's the problem.


Whoops. Brett beat me to it.

[mhmacw]

what im meaning concealer is the old saying "when in rome be a roman". if a new member comes to the forum and reads for a few days or weeks before posting and sees the 15,000 post members being absolute jerks then thats the idea he has for how the forum is and whats allowed. if your allowd to stick around long enough to amass 15k posts and call some one a d'bag then it must be ok to call someone a d'bag. by resetting the post count you in essence put a big ! on the rules as there are no examples of condoned bad behavior.

[dorokusai]

Just FYI, no one is paid to moderate here aside from Patrick C.

[CCNJ]

I joined this forum a few months ago to increase my knowledge on HT and Two Channel listening. I only posted a few times but I have always received very thoughtful responses from the members. That coupled with the vast amount of information in past threads makes this a great resource for those of us who enjoy audio and Polk products.

I really do respect most of the long time members on the forum as this place would not be as valuable without the knowledge and experience they share. By visiting just a few times you know who the experts are for tubes or solid state gear or integrated vs separates advice. I am grateful for their experiences and their willingness to share their journey with others.

I have an open mind when it comes to audio and people. This is a very subjective hobby and there is rarely a right or wrong answer. People will have varying opinions and it usually boils down to personal preference or budget considerations. Differing opinions should be respected even though you may not agree. I amazed that people will engage in pages and pages of flaming responses rather than simply ignoring the person. I also feel that threads should be shut down when they start to get out of control.

I am a long time POLK fan and customer and hope this forum is around for many years to come.

PS…Love my new LSI9s

Chris

[Lorthos]

Poof...

[xj4094dg]

Because video games have sound...

So do cars.:)

[steveinaz]

Al
To fix a problem you have to first identify the real issue. The real issue here is lack of moderation. Ask for some veteran volunteers, and if they meet your standards, make them mods.

Everyone else
There was a period last year where I quit coming here for the reasons listed in the OP. This place was getting stupid---and surprisingly, at the hand of veterans (usually). It was embarassing to be a part of it quite frankly. We've lost a number of great members for the same reasons---FrankZ comes to mind right off the bat.

We need to start policing each other. It starts with our problem "veterans" and you know who you are. Look at any Emotiva thread and you'll find 3, right away. They are the same three I've watched over the last 6 months, who just can't seem to let it go--they have to get their dig in every time; then the fireworks start. It's petty, immature, and straight up stupid from grown men in their 30's, 40's and 50's.

If Polk Audio were your company, and this forum was suppose to represent a company forum for owners---wouldn't you want it to be more customer (or potential customer) friendly?

[brettw22]

Lorthos, those types of threads eventually get handled........do you see anything in the thread that you posted that would result in the VP Of Marketing creating a thread saying check your attitudes or we need to close up shop?

[concealer404]

So do cars.:)

Absolutely. :)

[shadowofnight]

Just FYI, no one is paid to moderate here aside from Patrick C.

No one said it had to be money....what do assless leather chaps go for nowadays ?

[treitz3]

If a new member comes to the forum and reads for a few days or weeks before posting and sees the 15,000 post members being absolute jerks then that's the idea he has for how the forum is and whats allowed. if your allowed to stick around long enough to amass 15k posts and call some one a d'bag then it must be ok to call someone a d'bag. That's a very good point. More so when it comes from a moderator. This has happened to myself recently and though I had a thick enough skin to let it go like water on a duck's back, others may see that this kind of behavior is acceptable and endorsed.

[concealer404]

what im meaning concealer is the old saying "when in rome be a roman". if a new member comes to the forum and reads for a few days or weeks before posting and sees the 15,000 post members being absolute jerks then thats the idea he has for how the forum is and whats allowed. if your allowd to stick around long enough to amass 15k posts and call some one a d'bag then it must be ok to call someone a d'bag. by resetting the post count you in essence put a big ! on the rules as there are no examples of condoned bad behavior.

I still don't understand how post count justifies unacceptable behavior. It doesn't.

[Roy Munson]

The Clubhouse alone isn't even close to being a major part of the problem, though... i think that's the problem.


Whoops. Brett beat me to it.

You're right the Clubhouse isn't the problem but there are several people here that seem to be at the center of most of the fights...and it also seems that they are NEVER dealt with at least that's what it looks like. So I would agree with whoever said that "Attitudes/personalities need to change" or things really won't change.

[Roy Munson]

Al
To fix a problem you have to first identify the real issue. The real issue here is lack of moderation. Ask for some veteran volunteers, and if they meet your standards, make them mods.

Everyone else
There was a period last year where I quit coming here for the reasons listed in the OP. This place was getting stupid---and surprisingly, at the hand of veterans (usually). It was embarassing to be a part of it quite frankly. We've lost a number of great members for the same reasons---FrankZ comes to mind right off the bat.

We need to start policing each other. It starts with our problem "veterans" and you know who you are. Look at any Emotiva thread and you'll find 3, right away. They are the same three I've watched over the last 6 months, who just can't seem to let it go--they have to get their dig in every time; then the fireworks start. It's petty, immature, and straight up stupid from grown men in their 30's, 40's and 50's.

If Polk Audio were your company, and this forum was suppose to represent a company forum for owners---wouldn't you want it to be more customer (or potential customer) friendly?

Well said Steve!

[Lorthos]

Lorthos, those types of threads eventually get handled........do you see anything in the thread that you posted that would result in the VP Of Marketing creating a thread saying check your attitudes or we need to close up shop?

Fixed it:)

[Jim Shearer]

I visit here often, but you can tell from my post count that I don’t say all that much--why bother wasting band width if I don’t have anything useful to add?

Here are my thoughts:

1) The For Sale and Club House sections should only be visible to registered members.

2) Polk owns the forum and has every right to moderate it heavily.

3) If there is serious desire to clamp down on spam and trolling by ‘passers-by’, then limit access to those who register Polk products or who are willing to pay a modest registration fee--maybe $10 or so. This will filter out the people who join only to cause trouble.

4) I belong to some forums which require that you state your real name in order to join/participate. Behavior tends to improve when folks know who you are! ;)

Cheers, Jim

[Serendipity]

If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it!!

[brettw22]

lol....i was just asking the question......but i agree that people whose initial post or two is an ad should be nixed (but I think they currently already are)

[shack]

I think the following should be a rule:

If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it!!

That is unrealistic...and highly subjective.

[Serendipity]

That is unrealistic...and highly subjective.

Ok, gotcha. Never mind.

[steveinaz]

Look at the GlockTalk forum; I've been a member there for over 10 years. No cussing, no brand bashing, no fight starting---they will ban you in a hot second if you don't keep it civil. Everyone knows this, and they abide (at least the vast majority do, the rest are gone). The minute you get "personal" with someone, you get a stern warning, the next time--you are gone. People adapt to Eric's rules (forum owner) and it works. That forum is HUGE in membership. They do allow people to get hot under the collar (especially in the politics forum) as long as you don't make personal attacks. There's a difference between "hot" debate, and attacking someone personally; unfortunately some on CP can't handle this level of maturity.

[shepx2]

After five years here I had to put a member on "ignore", I didn't really want to but after being called an ******* by this guy because I voiced an opinion just rubbed me the wrong way. I've seen it happen hundreds of times to others and I think GG has the right approach about using the "ignore" feature. I also agree more people should use it because there are several people here that are serial offenders that seem to be at the center of many of the threads that turn bad.

Ignore is a fantastic, underused feature; however, when you have a couple people who are repeat offenders that always seem to be at the heart of problems, ignore is not the answer: the door is.

The problems we are having now are no different than they were back in the old days of the original forum. The difference between now and then is the larger number of people we currently have, and that is it. The percentages of troublemakers has always stayed the same, but you are going to hear more complaints due to the increase of people.

I applaud Polk in their attempt to allow the forum to be self-policed as much as possible. But just like the parent who never disciplines their kid, it's going to eventually come back to haunt you. And here we are today.

We definitely need a few more moderators, but they need to be levelheaded people who are not easily provoked and will not abuse their power. They also have to be able to ban when necessary, and know that Polk will back them in their decisions, even if it's a long-time member.

It's almost spring time. And in order for the garden to grow, we need to pull the weeds.

[snow]

Well you asked.... so here goes, IMHO I think a new set of rules needs to be posted and everyone including the mods should follow these rules. Zero tolerance for bad behavior period, the first time "anyone" breaks the rules they get a warning, the second time they get a week off, the third time a month off, the 4th time poof your gone for good. But the rules need to be clearly posted and the penaltys strictly enforced "no exceptions period" or else it wont work.

I have been guilty of bad behavior in the past and am as guilty as anyone else here but if I knew that a ban was just around the corner and that I wasnt going to catch a break I would think twice about what I typed :p

I think the 25 post rule to sell is a joke and only stirs up animosity between new members and old. It should be up to the discretion of the buyer to decide whether he or she is willing to take the risk of buying something.

Closing the forum is a bad idea it serves as a place to discuss Polk and other products it helps create a bond amongst polk owners and Polk products it is a wonderful place to ask questions and receive help from other members and Polk employees alike, I truly believe Polk products would take a huge hit in sales if this forum didnt exist, the support we all receive here is priceless.

I also think that the banning of Joe AKA hearingimpaired permanantly was a bad idea and has brought morale to an all time low and tensions on the forum to an all time high. The punishment didnt fit the crime IMHO and his return to CP would be a good start towards returning order to the forum.

REGARDS SNOW

[billbillw]

Extra subforums won't help anything. Extra moderation will. I agree with Steve. There are far too many members who have been able to get away with very inappropriate behavior for far too long. Most of those, I wouldn't miss. Warnings, then bans.

Make at least one moderator for each sub-forum and for the busier forums, make two. If a mod is going on vacation, he needs to get another mod to cover his sections while gone. Not sure how heavy the mod hands need to be, but there needs to be a noticeable presence.

[wz2p7j]

I visit here often, but you can tell from my post count that I don’t say all that much--why bother wasting band width if I don’t have anything useful to add?

Here are my thoughts:

1) The For Sale and Club House sections should only be visible to registered members.

2) Polk owns the forum and has every right to moderate it heavily.

3) If there is serious desire to clamp down on spam and trolling by ‘passers-by’, then limit access to those who register Polk products or who are willing to pay a modest registration fee--maybe $10 or so. This will filter out the people who join only to cause trouble.

4) I belong to some forums which require that you state your real name in order to join/participate. Behavior tends to improve when folks know who you are! ;)

Cheers, Jim

Good point, especially number 4.

HeWhoBeBad

[brettw22]

Trust me, this forum has seen far worse days than the banning of Joe.......if someone getting banned for their behavior puts you in an 'all time low' then you're taking this place WAY too seriously....

[cfrizz]

Then:
1. Attitudes/personalities need to change, or
2. Take away the Clubhouse.

The problem isn't the Clubhouse the problem is just a few people who are messing it up for the majority & need to be eliminated.

[steveinaz]

I think the minimum post rule for selling should be changed to a time period rather than post count. Think about it, selling is an opportunistic venture, you can make 25 post in a day, but if you've got something to sell, you're not going to wait weeks to even bother.

I do like having standards to post in the FM though, it keeps the spirit of why it is there, intact. It also cuts down on fly-by-nighters just hocking their wares to people they couldn't care less about. IMO.

[Serendipity]

If someone is just being a 'troll for a day', strike one is they get limited in what they can post, for say a 1-2 week period. Strike two they are reduced to only being able to reply in threads, not create new ones. Stops them from being able to start fights. Strike three, bye bye.

+1

I agree with the 3 strike rule and it's a good idea.

[snow]

Trust me, this forum has seen far worse days than the banning of Joe.......if someone getting banned for their behavior puts you in an 'all time low' then you're taking this place WAY too seriously....I am not going to take the bait Brett, this thread was started for suggestions regarding the future of CP not to fight amongst ourselves :D Me mentioniing Joe was to show a prime example of how the rules and punishments need to be equitablly enforced in order for the forum to run smoothly. Its funny in a way though looking through the different posts here to see people arguing about other peoples ideas lmaoo.



REGARDS SNOW

[brettw22]

you mean like the bait about campaigning to reinstate a banned member in such a thread as you recognize for seeking suggestions? ;)

I'm just playin here......no animosity......and i'm off to shower....enjoy

[hearingimpared]

I agree that more mods are needed. Three people, one at a time, can't possibly deal with all moderator issues not to mention in a timely fashion.

I think one of the main issues though is the lack of consistency in moderation but I believe that is due to the fact that we have only three, two of which are very active but I imagine they are overwhelmed with a forum this large. Plus God knows how many PMs and emails they receive and have to deal with in the backround. I would also like to point out that the mods like Patrick have other duties to perform . . . Mark has a real job that he is responsible to and to put bread on the table. I for one wouldn't want to be in their shoes right now.

I think there are many willing, able, level headed, and objective members here who would be excellent mods.

As far as zeroing out post counts, that not going to change anything. However reading posts and getting a feel for the posters intentions, experience, knoweldge and persona goes a long way.

More forums in the Clubhouse is not going to improve what Al speaks of, it is just going to clutter up an already busy board.

IMHO this is, by far, the best audio CLUB on the internet, not just a sterile forum, with a family like atmosphere and just like in any family there are going to be disagreements. We ALL need to be civil to each other even when dealing with a "troll." Trolls are usually weeded out by themselves especially when they are talking to thin air i.e. GG's method, the IGNORE feature. I've just recently started taking advantage of the ignore feature and find myself eating less Tums!!! LOL!

I love this place and have put my heart and soul into it and would hate to see it shut down or made into a sterile environment.

[wayne3burk]

Look at the GlockTalk forum; I've been a member there for over 10 years. No cussing, no brand bashing, no fight starting---they will ban you in a hot second if you don't keep it civil. Everyone knows this, and they abide (at least the vast majority do, the rest are gone). The minute you get "personal" with someone, you get a stern warning, the next time--you are gone. People adapt to Eric's rules (forum owner) and it works. That forum is HUGE in membership. They do allow people to get hot under the collar (especially in the politics forum) as long as you don't make personal attacks. There's a difference between "hot" debate, and attacking someone personally; unfortunately some on CP can't handle this level of maturity.

I think people keep their tone civil in a Glock Forum --- because no one's ever used a Polk to kill someone with.

[hearingimpared]

LOL! but I gotta agree with Steve except for the sterness of the policing. Everyone gets their backs up once in a while and their fingers get ahead of their brain. I know I've been guilty of this many times. With the time limit placed on the edit feature it doesn't allow for someone to change their post. However one can still apologize for a terse or inappropriate post. The point is making rules so stringent that if one screws up once or twice and is gone is not a good option in that we are all human and do stupid things from time to time.

I just went through that here because I wasn't thinking I was reacting and couldn't take it back.

[treitz3]

Welcome back Joe.

[snow]

I agree that more mods are needed. Three people, one at a time, can't possibly deal with all moderator issues not to mention in a timely fashion.

I think one of the main issues though is the lack of consistency in moderation but I believe that is due to the fact that we have only three, two of which are very active but I imagine they are overwhelmed with a forum this large. Plus God knows how many PMs and emails they receive and have to deal with in the backround. I would also like to point out that the mods like Patrick have other duties to perform . . . Mark has a real job that he is responsible to and to put bread on the table. I for one wouldn't want to be in their shoes right now.

I think there are many willing, able, level headed, and objective members here who would be excellent mods.

As far as zeroing out post counts, that not going to change anything. However reading posts and getting a feel for the posters intentions, experience, knoweldge and persona goes a long way.

More forums in the Clubhouse is not going to improve what Al speaks of, it is just going to clutter up an already busy board.

IMHO this is, by far, the best audio CLUB on the internet, not just a sterile forum, with a family like atmosphere and just like in any family there are going to be disagreements. We ALL need to be civil to each other even when dealing with a "troll." Trolls are usually weeded out by themselves especially when they are talking to thin air i.e. GG's method, the IGNORE feature. I've just recently started taking advantage of the ignore feature and find myself eating less Tums!!! LOL!

I love this place and have put my heart and soul into it and would hate to see it shut down or made into a sterile environment.Hey your back!!!! :)

REGARDS SNOW

[concealer404]

I agree that more mods are needed. Three people, one at a time, can't possibly deal with all moderator issues not to mention in a timely fashion.

I think one of the main issues though is the lack of consistency in moderation but I believe that is due to the fact that we have only three, two of which are very active but I imagine they are overwhelmed with a forum this large. Plus God knows how many PMs and emails they receive and have to deal with in the backround. I would also like to point out that the mods like Patrick have other duties to perform . . . Mark has a real job that he is responsible to and to put bread on the table. I for one wouldn't want to be in their shoes right now.

I think there are many willing, able, level headed, and objective members here who would be excellent mods.

As far as zeroing out post counts, that not going to change anything. However reading posts and getting a feel for the posters intentions, experience, knoweldge and persona goes a long way.

More forums in the Clubhouse is not going to improve what Al speaks of, it is just going to clutter up an already busy board.

IMHO this is, by far, the best audio CLUB on the internet, not just a sterile forum, with a family like atmosphere and just like in any family there are going to be disagreements. We ALL need to be civil to each other even when dealing with a "troll." Trolls are usually weeded out by themselves especially when they are talking to thin air i.e. GG's method, the IGNORE feature. I've just recently started taking advantage of the ignore feature and find myself eating less Tums!!! LOL!

I love this place and have put my heart and soul into it and would hate to see it shut down or made into a sterile environment.

Man... i hate Tums. So... chalky. :p

Welcome back. ;)

[Serendipity]

I would like to also suggest the following:

1. No fighting.
2. No cursing.
3. No personal attacks.

Just keep those 3 things in mind before posting and everything will be ok.

[cfrizz]

Cathy, I don't actually disagree with you, but I think you're misinterpreting my comments a bit.

My suggestion was that Polk should look to the people who have been here for a long time and have contributed much to the forum in a positive way as people to add to the ranks. It doesn't mean that anyone who has been here for a long time is automatically qualified for that task.

I think we need more people to step in when people get out of hand jumping on someone new who doesn't deserve it. Equally, we need more people to step in and deal with new folks who are disrespectful. Both happen far too much around here.

The reason? Lack of moderation. I guarantee the gnashing of teeth and claws will subside when people know that someone is handling it. Right now that's not happening very well due to the lack of supervision.

New folks have all the same opportunities to fit in that the rest of us had when we first started. Honestly, nothing has changed other than the forum getting larger.

There are many folks in this thread who have only been here a year or two who I would consider great assets to the forum.

How did they manage to fit in?

Gotcha, thank you for the clarification.:) I agree entirely.

Steve you are also right on the money with your observations.

[F1nut]

Really good ideas.


The "Ignore" feature is a tool provided by the management.

Add a couple more mods.

The For Sale forum stays hidden until so many posts.

Put a new member sales section up.

The trolls need to be dealt with immediately.




The following two posters have their finger on the pulse.



I believe strongly that there is a concerted effort on the part of some new members to bring trouble here, and this is their only reason for joining in the first place. There has been a mission of trying to get Club Polk closed up. When a post such as yours has been made publicly admitting the possibility, they will gloat on the other boards about it. I won't single any one individual or group, but there are more than a few boards that will gleefully be discussing this and will perhaps come here to add fuel to the fire. I have seen members of other boards suggest such action and have witnessed the results here. I also believe that nearly anyone that complains to you about their treatment at the hands of the forum community would fall into this group, and have no intentions of ever owning Polk gear in the first place.

As with the body, members here react to those that come here to start trouble like antibodies to a virus and the best thing that could happen is to remove the cause of the trouble.

One of the best aspects of CP is that it has been here longer than most any other online audio community, and what I see happening is that those of us that love this place have become protective of it and other members, just as any family would. This is understandable, and even desirable.

There must be a stronger look taken at newcomers to CP. Perhaps something along the lines of a valid product serial number to gain full and immediate access to all areas of the site and a 25 post minimum for members that do not to gain access to anything other than a few areas of the board. All newbie areas should be narrowly focused to asking Polk Audio product information only. This would allow the basic character of an individual to be assessed before further access can be granted. Once they have the required number of posts to gain access to other areas, new members should be made aware upfront via an E-sign document what the rules of posting are and the conduct expected by Polk Audio. Whatever these policies are, they should be enforced equally and without malace.

Another point would be for there to be a few mods that are members. Having a few upstanding members allowed to temporarily block a troller from posting and lock threads pending further review from You, Doro and Patrick would go a long way to calming the place down. I believe this will quickly end trolling as the ones responsible for the action will be stopped in their tracks. This would also prevent the long pissing matches that begin when long-standing members get protective of their online home.

Cp is to big a place to be administered by a relative handful of people, and has been for a very long time. I hope that it continues to thrive.





What does Polk expect to happen when there are basically only two guys running this place? I know there are more than that, but face it -- dorokusai and Patrick C (who I assume has many more responsibilities) are the only two who openly get involved here on a regular basis that anyone can see. Until recently, it was only the old guard who knew dorokusai was a moderator.

In the face of this lack of moderation, you have people who feel very strongly about this forum taking it upon themselves to police it. Few were qualified and many were not. For better or worse, they used the tools that were at their disposal and that often got ugly. Again, what do you expect? These people do not have the ability to lock threads, issue temporary bans, or have any real influence through private message.

You need more moderators, and unless there's an internal policy I'm not privy to -- they don't need to be people collecting a paycheck from Polk Audio.

This place completely lacks direction. If I was Polk I would look to the people who helped mold this forum into the great place it is (or was, if you're feeling cynical). Many of those folks have simply left already. Polk's problem isn't simply placating new folks, which forgive me for saying, seems to be the track Polk has taken of late.


Quote:
Old timers act like they own the place and want to close the door behind them.

It's comments like this that make me cynical about the future here. While nobody but Polk owns this forum, you cannot deny that there are many folks out there who have put a lot into this place, be it money, time, or knowledge. They did it for nothing other than to make friends and have a place to hang out.

As I said above, you'd do well to throw them a bone. Without them, this place is just another forum.



Really bad ideas.


Having umpteen sections for all things.

Start over the post count.

[Serendipity]

Really good ideas.

Really bad ideas.

Why don't we let Al decide what's a good vs. bad idea?

[brettw22]

Trust, Al will be the one making the decisions, not F1, not me, not anyone.......we're just saying it's a bad idea.....lol.....

[inspiredsports]

I've written it here on several occasions, and read it over and over, "Club Polk is the best forum on the Internet."

Let's keep it that way. We all need to step up our game.

Step in and publish when you can help, count to ten and err on not publishing when it won't really help. :)

[hearingimpared]

Thanks for the welcome backs but please if you are going to do it, do it in PMs. Not that I don't appreciate it I just don't want a big deal made of it.

[DaveMuell]

My suggestion is a little different - just like when you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it. If you aren't buying something for sale, or don't have a question about it, don't post. Too darn much "if only I hadn't bought mine last year", or "If I had the money, I would be interested..".

[concealer404]

Why don't we let Al decide what's a good vs. bad idea?

It's an opinion man... Ironically, this is what i see as one of the bigger problems. People reading an opinion, then seeing it as an incorrect fact and an attack, then getting butthurt. (for the record, you don't actually seem butthurt) It's not. It's just an opinion. Agree or disagree with it as you wish.

[Serendipity]

Gotcha.

[mhmacw]

ive read als monologue a few times now and cant seem to find the part where it says "please tell otheres there ideas arnet good if they conflict with your own personal thoughts" if you could show me this part jesse i would really appreciate it. thanks so much for your expertise, dan

[Fongolio]

I love this place and have put my heart and soul into it and would hate to see it shut down or made into a sterile environment.

First let me say welcome back Joe!

I've read all that is written here and imo this is what is needed:

1. More effective moderation. For the most part Mark has done a very good job but I think even he will acknowledge he has been guilty of some of the things mentioned in Al's post. Enough said about that.

2. One or two more mods. We don't need a bunch. Mark, Patrick and maybe two more will more than suffice.

3. SELF-POLICING Don't take troll bait. Don't be rude. Don't use toilet humor. Don't talk down about Emotiva, Bose, Monster Cable, etc. etc. And if think that your $2000/ft cables are hooey, ignore me! It's just an opinion. There is never a winner in these fights. NEVER.

4. As George Grand so wisely said "Use the ignore feature". If someone really annoys you and you really want to tell them...put them on ignore. Problem solved. There is no need to tell them they are idiots. They won't hear you anyway.

5. Patience, tolerance, and understanding with newbies. Many newcomers have very little knowledge on a lot of audio subjects we cover here. Give them time to learn. Many newbies also think they know it all. Let them think that. After a while they will realize there is a lot to be learned or very little. They will either stay and learn or leave because there is nothing to learn. We don't need to chase them away either way.

6. Just because you have 8,000 posts STOP PONTIFICATING!! The air of superiority from some long time or high post count members is sickening. Just because you have a wealth of knowledge doesn't make my opinion count less. Some of the most brilliant minds in history stayed at University's in order to pass that knowledge on. They didn't stay to show all the new students what superior intellect they had. Pass on your knowledge. Do not force it in a condescending way.

That is what I think is needed. A little more than 2 cents worth but I'm good with that

Kelvin

[adam2434]

First - thanks to Polk for supporting this forum. It's a very friendly and helpful place 95+ per cent of the time.

The majority of negative stuff around here would be avoided we all chose to ignore certain posts and chose to be civil when posting. It's not that hard to disagree with someone and still be civil or to ignore someone if you think they are baiting.

Others have said the same thing, but to me it's really that simple.

It's the baiting, bullying, bashing, piling on, and pissing contests that get old and serve no purpose. I think it's totally appropriate for Polk to set the tone they want for their forum by increasing mod involvement. That will get folks' attention and will make clear the type of stuff that won't be tolerated.

[wayne3burk]

Just FYI, no one is paid to moderate here aside from Patrick C.

My resume is in the mail, I'm cheap but not easy.

[Serendipity]

+1

That's why I don't read certain threads. If you don't respond, the thread will die and that's the end of it. Or don't even make it possible to post certain types of threads. Anything with controversial topics will be removed. Then there won't be bullying, bashing, piling on, etc.

[fj_az]

I have to admit I didn't read all the posts. I'm a noob here joined last week I believe. I can't believe people getting bashed or bullied enough here on a forum from people they don't even know will probably ever see in their lifetimes. Then turn around and ditch polk. What is the world coming to? As for contributing an answer I have not one idea really. But I will say that in my less than two weeks here on the forum it is very useful and I would hate to see it go.

[Serendipity]

I will say that in my less than two weeks here on the forum it is very useful and I would hate to see it go.

I too think that the forum is a wonderful place and a great source of information. I've learned a lot from you guys and it is very appreciated. I hope that it should stay and I would hate to see it go.

[Face]

Those asking for additional forums and a plethora of new rules, be careful what you wish for. I've seen other boards go this route and it will dilute much of the "close knit" community feel.

But if a little tightening of the belt is what's needed to keep this place going, so be it.

[Serendipity]

But if a little tightening of the belt is what's needed to keep this place going, so be it.

Just a little. :)

[shawn474]

Here's my personal opinion. This forum is the best place of its kind on the internet. I come here multiple times a day to research, shop, talk, comment, etc. Some people I like, others I don't. Some people I agree with, some I don't. Sometimes I let my emotions get the best of me, sometimes I don't. I am sure I am on some people's ignore list. Nobody has made it to mine yet.

All that said, I see the only simple solution (and I think it needs to be simple because if Al / Polk feel there is too much involved to change the way they want, they may as well just pull the plug), is to establish a new set of specific rules (or keep them the way they are now). If ANYONE posts outside of those rules, first time is a warning. Second time is a week ban. Third time a month and fourth time is permanent. We are all going to lose our tempers or be emotional on certain topics. But with the knowledge that there are consequences for EVERYONE, maybe we can all just learn to get along and accept that there are other veiwpoints and RESPECT each other-new or old, novice or expert, casual listener or hardcore enthusiast, etc.

Shawn

[Serendipity]

I would like to say the following -

Polk Audio is a GREAT forum and I really enjoy being a part of it! I've learned so many things about audio and love Polk Audio speakers.

Let's hope that we can keep this place going!

[Toolfan66]

If the Polk fourm shut down I would have to go back to Internet Porn,and I'm not sure my heart could take the abuse...

[nadams]

Keep in mind, everyone, that internet forums as a whole tend to swell in ranks and posts during the winter. Along with that, comes a lot more arguements, as people spend way more time on the internet when the weather sucks outside, than when it gets nice and outdoor activities can take place. I think a lot of people here are suffereing from cabin fever and a bit of pent-up energy. No, it won't go away totally when it gets warm, but I've just noticed in the past that Winter tends to be the worst season for forums!

[thsmith]

No matter what I hope CP is not shut down. You are not going to please everyone so I am in for whatever keeps this site alive.

I have been goated a few times on several sites and have been on the Internet long enough to ignore.

Al, you have my support just please do not shut this site down. If there is something I can do please let me know.

I do wish the spammers could be blocked or at least more difficult for them to sell credit card numbers and such.

[KrazyMofo24]

I hope everything gets worked out this is a great forum. I feel this forum is great for marketing. I know I always consider Polk when I'm in the market for home or car audio more so then prior of joining this forum. I agree that more moderation would help its much better than just shutting it down.

Well from what I get from his message is that he's really not asking for ways to improve or change the forum, he's asking us to stop the name calling, talking down to, foul language, etc.

As far as adding more sections to the forum, the current set up is now is how it's been since I've joined. I like it, but I don't see how it could hurt much by adding a few more I feel this place is a great source of information, a lot of knowledgeable people, and it's very active so I could see some benefits of having a section divided for other common non audio categories.

[Demiurge]

Well from what I get from his message is that he's really not asking for ways to improve or change the forum, he's asking us to stop the name calling, talking down to, foul language, etc.

Sure is.


Maybe you have some concrete ideas. If so, I want to hear them now. If not, stay tuned. Change is coming.

[superjunior]

Those asking for additional forums and a plethora of new rules, be careful what you wish for. I've seen other boards go this route and it will dilute much of the "close knit" community feel.


+1000^^^ I don't think anyone wants that.

[cstmar01]

I would be very sadden if the club would get closed. I am still fairly new to everything and enjoy the comments and suggestions that I can get from the members on the different products as well as non polk advice such as amps ect. I find that a lot of members are very helpful and are willing to give great advice, and are just fun to talk to and get help from.
That said I do get highly annoyed with some people that tend to post opinions in cable threads (just an example there are others) but seem to be there more to argue with someone they don't agree with or just call it stupid and then continue to fight and not really help the OP or have a point just to say something is stupid. This to me, is the activity that does need to stop as its just plain, 1 not helpful and 2 makes people get into fights that are not needed.
I think that either a warning system needs to be put in place to give public warnings or that more mods need to be established to help control these types of fights as they can pop up at any time and can take a little while to get taken care of.
I think Mark does a GREAT job being a mod and feel bad at times that he works so hard and always has more to do. I think adding more would just be benaficial to all and would help Mark out.
I am one that does tend to get annoyed by those that just come in and rush to 25 posts to sell something. Also get annoyed by those that pull up 2 year old threads and ask to buy something or just come on here to get a good deal, but not understand why its being offered for less. I do think making it private would help as increasing the amount of time one has to be a member to sell, ect.
All in all I would be sad to see it go, but if it needs to be done, then I understand the position of the company and will continue to buy their products regardless.

[KrazyMofo24]

Sure is.

Nice catch.

*Note to self: Pay more attention.

[Serendipity]

We need more positive threads.

[Hillbilly61]

Keep in mind, everyone, that internet forums as a whole tend to swell in ranks and posts during the winter. Along with that, comes a lot more arguements, as people spend way more time on the internet when the weather sucks outside, than when it gets nice and outdoor activities can take place. I think a lot of people here are suffereing from cabin fever and a bit of pent-up energy. No, it won't go away totally when it gets warm, but I've just noticed in the past that Winter tends to be the worst season for forums!

Your points are well taken Nad, but I don't think it has anything to do with the season ... maybe, some folks spending way too much time on line, but that's another thing.... I checked out of this place late last summer as it had gotten very old seeing threads turn into flame wars for the fact that some folks cannot grasp the concept of "I respectfully disagree" and then move on (we all do it a work or would soon be unemployed) and other folk who must get the last word in ... another sign of an impending flame war.

After reading all of these posts, it is suggested that the proposed suspension rules be applied to both parties. No sides taken. It takes two to have a fight & behave inappropriately. A troll post from an isolated individual is easily identifiable and can be dealt with accordingly.

From what I have seen, newbie trolls are usually quickly identified and eliminated in some way shape or form. The problem within this forum lay with the regular posters who have been around here a while, including those with high post counts and years of membership.

Probably due to the lack of moderators, it has been observed that threads are not shut down soon enough and I have never seen a post deleted by a mod. I think there are plenty of well behaving regulars within this forum who would volunteer to mod, if not for the whole forum, then for specific boards.

As a final suggestion it would also be beneficial to put a time limit on a thread's inactivity. Right now, I could reach back to the beginning and find some sort of flame war and resurrect it by posting anew. This has been seen.

About the irritation of newbies running up the 25 post count to sell, it is suggested to add, say, a 45 day window of membership. That would stop those who simply wish to use this forum as some sort of c'list.

[bsoko2]

The thing is to be "respectful" to one another with all discussion on the forum.

Bill

[Zero]

This one is easy... Add 3 or 4 new moderators. The only challenge at this point would be finding those who have a reputation of being even keeled, are not prone to emotional outbursts, have a clean track record, and so on and so forth.

[madmax]

"Club Polk is the best forum on the Internet."


Agreed.

madmax

[jacob.simpson]

I am shocked by this, being said that this was required some time back itself,
sincerely in the last 2 years i have seen some threads and posts which were not required or almost abusive and the trend was more in the upward than stagnant or decremental,
But i cannot see this PF being closed down, that will be one of the saddest day, Hope everthing works out good.
One small suggestion is to have couple of more moderators to regulate and before one registers each point of rules should have 'I accept feature' or a puzzle to each rule with a choose from 2 option and click the right one, this will be like a puzzle game but get the newbies to read all the rules,
But for the existing members an email from Admin with all the rules and guidelines once in a year.....
After looooong time the weather is beautiful hope after all these cold and bad weather in PF turns out like Spring and remains the same.:D

[gdb]

I don't feel that a voluminous post count transforms anyone to a "Guru","Master" or "ologist" of anything.... except keyboarding activity. I'd just like to request that if it does all come crashing down, that the forum be "left up" as a read only library, so that the past technical posts can be accessed as reference material.:) Thanks

[Serendipity]

This one is easy... Add 3 or 4 new moderators. The only challenge at this point would be finding those who have a reputation of being even keeled, are not prone to emotional outbursts, have a clean track record, and so on and so forth.

Agreed.

Serendipity

[DarqueKnight]

Maybe you have some concrete ideas. If so, I want to hear them now. If not, stay tuned. Change is coming.

Al,

I communicated some thoughts and suggestions to you last week, one of which was that moderators be properly labeled as such.

Several members have mentioned more and effective moderation. I would like to speak more about that.

An Internet forum, like any public gathering place, must have some procedures in place to deal with people who get "out of place". Armed security is not required at a public library, but people know that if they get out of place, the police are just a phone call away. Likewise, I do not think that heavy handed moderation is required here. Except for those few persons who come here specifically to start trouble, most of us would respond respectfully and appropriately to "courteous correction" from a properly identified moderator. Heated debates can still occur...as long as they remain civil and respectful. Lawyers engage in heated debates in courtrooms without resorting to name calling and threats. Of course, in a courtroom environment, the moderator (the judge) can have offensive lawyers thrown in jail.

It has been mentioned that, perhaps a few members should be given moderator authority. I must say, that has already been tried with mixed results. Your initial statement in this thread was precipitated by a situation where a long time member, who now has moderator authority, misused that authority to "settle" some long-running reciprocal animosity with another member. This same moderator has engaged in repeated verbal abuse toward members (see attached for examples). If Polk management says they want a civil forum environment, then they can't have a moderator going around "fanning the flames". While I respect Mark's long time contributions to the forum in particular and to audio in general, his moderator service has been tarnished by his habit of "getting down and dirty" and "going toe-to-toe" with the membership. This has negatively impacted morale and has caused people inside and outside the forum to question Polk management's integrity for allowing this to go on. We should all be aware that Polk is an international company and this forum is read by people all over the world.

We should all consider what a "moderator" does. A moderator moderates, i.e. mediates, arbitrates, and makes sure that an activity or process stays within certain bounds. As an authority figure, a moderator must "stay above the fray" and must not actively participate in the activity in which he or she moderates. Examples of proper moderation are nightclub security not dancing with or conversing with patrons, police officers not socially interacting with citizens at an event for which they are on duty and political debate moderators not participating in the debate...except to enforce rules. If people walk into a nightclub and see all the security staff out on the dance floor, it gives the impression that there really is no security enforcement and "anything goes". How much credibility would a political debate have if the moderator engaged in arguments with the debaters?

Another thing to consider is that effective moderation requires a certain skill set and a certain temperament. One is no good without the other. If someone is prone to getting easily riled up by other's words, then dealing with the public in an authoritative capacity is not the right place for such an person because their temper and patience will be tested time and time again. Justin seemed to be able to diffuse "situations" with a few words. Sometimes he would just lock a thread and ask members to move on. I think that if we had a few moderators of this sort, it would lay the framework for a civil forum environment.

I would not want to be a moderator because I enjoy interacting with other members too much to give that up. Those qualified members who are interested in moderator authority should be made to realize that they are expected to "stay in the background" and only intervene when necessary. I expect that, like me, most members would not want to pay this price for moderator authority.

To summarize:

1. Any public gathering place must be actively and effectively managed. Install a few moderators who are have the temperament and proper training for dealing with the public and make sure they are properly labeled as moderators.

2. Even if a hundred moderators were available, they could not be everywhere at once. Some forums have installed "mood watch" software that prevents certain words or word combinations from being posted and/or certain keywords trigger a "moderation review" and the post is not published until it has been reviewed. For example, the software could be set to refer any post with the word "Emotiva" or "cable" to moderation review. Of course, such software can easily be circumvented by writing "c-a-b-l-e" rather than "cable", but an individual who does so identifies themselves as someone who is trying to circumvent forum rules and they should be dealt with accordingly.

==========================

Ours is one of the better and more informative audio forums around. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be here. The forum can be made even better by the implementation of a few of the "best practices" that other successful forums use for member management.

[shack]

I personally think Mark has done an excellent job as moderator. I too have contacted Al in the past to make him aware of my opinion on the subject.

[Serendipity]

DarqueKnight -

I get an error message "The file is damaged and could not be repaired." Has anyone else been able to view the PDF files properly?

[concealer404]

It works for me, and to an extent, i agree.

A moderator doesn't necessarily have to remove themselves from the discussions, but definitely does need to rise above and be held to the same if not a higher standard. Moderators can have fun just like the rest of us. But it has to be the clean fun, and remain fun.

[DarqueKnight]

Serendipity,

You may need to update your Adobe Reader software.

[Serendipity]

You may need to update your Adobe Reader software.

Trying that right now. And it's taking a very long time.

[jimbo1421]

I would like to see Polk Audio enforce the standards of civility that they keep in their own working environment. That PA has not done so already reflects badly on the company, to the point that I am reluctant to recommend Polk speakers to my friends. The forum here is too much of an embarrassment. By comparison, check out Vinyl Engine (http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/index.php). I have yet to encounter a flame war going on there.

There is one big structural difference between Vinyl Engine and Club Polk: there is no New Posts button. The forum just displays its categories. I just go to the areas that I am interested in and provocative threads are not pushed in my face, daring me to click on them just to see what kind of foolishness they contain. So my advice to Al would be to get rid of the New Posts button. I'll bet that would have a calming effect.

Jim

[Fongolio]

I am in 100% agreement with DarqueKnight's comments on this matter. Moderate moderators is what is needed.

[pearsall001]

I think we should have a beer summit & hash these points out.

[Serendipity]

There is one big structural difference between Vinyl Engine and Club Polk: there is no New Posts button. The forum just displays its categories. I just go to the areas that I am interested in and provocative threads are not pushed in my face, daring me to click on them just to see what kind of foolishness they contain. So my advice to Al would be to get rid of the New Posts button. I'll bet that would have a calming effect.

Interesting idea. If there was a way to keep threads separate so that provocative threads don't appear when you are searching for something useful, that may work.

I never used the New Posts button though...

[shawn474]

I personally think Mark has done an excellent job as moderator. I too have contacted Al in the past to make him aware of my opinion on the subject.

Agreed. That this thread has now turned into moderator bashing and calling out Mark specifically is a shame. I will save a long winded diatribe, but to blame Mark for the goings-on in this forum is passing the buck and removing accountability from the people who have truly caused this action. In short, we have a contingent on this forum that has a pack mentality. Once one negative word is said about any of them or about their posts, the person is bombarded with negativity/name calling. Say what you want, there is plenty of blame to go around. TWO examples over a long time period of moderation and putting up with all of the BS that goes with hardly calls for his removal. You take 5 posts (out of close to 20,000) to demonstrate how incompetent he is. He has put out many more fires than he has ever started.

All these people volunteering to moderate (either publicly or behind the scenes) have had their fair share of the same type of things that DarqueKnight is admonishing Mark for. We are all human and make mistakes. His contributions to this forum FAR outweight his shortfalls. Make some of these clowns moderators and see how fast this forum gets flushed down the crapper.

And isn't it a shame that with a message from POLK AUDIO's VP of MARKETING basically begging all of us to chill and respect each other that everyone (generally speaking) is looking to pass the buck instead of looking in the mirror? And then admonishing a mod for settling a personal grudge while doing the same in this thread. Ironic don't you think?

This has turned into a witch hunt if you ask me.....

[mikesd]

Thanks for the welcome backs but please if you are going to do it, do it in PMs. Not that I don't appreciate it I just don't want a big deal made of it.

Congrats Joe ;)

[Serendipity]

I volunteered to moderate because I enjoy this forum and don't mind helping out.

I also don't have issues with anyone here. I'm just here to learn! :)

[Demiurge]

Agreed. That this thread has now turned into moderator bashing and calling out Mark specifically is a shame. I will save a long winded diatribe, but to blame Mark for the goings-on in this forum is passing the buck and removing accountability from the people who have truly caused this action. In short, we have a contingent on this forum that has a pack mentality. Onvce one negative word is said about any of them or about their posts, the person is bombarded with negativity/name calling. Say what you want, there is plenty of blame to go around. TWO examples over a long time peruiod of moderationa nd putting up with all of the BS that goes with hardly calls for his removal.

All these people volunteering to moderate have had their fair share of the same type of things that DarqueKnight is admonishing Mark for. We are all human and make mistakes. His contributions to this forum FAR outweight his shortfalls. Make some of these clowns moderators and see how fast this forum gets flushed down the crapper.

I agree with you 100%. There isn't a person here who hasn't lost their cool from time to time, moderator or not. By and large he does a great job.

This was absolutely not the place to attempt to settle a grudge. How can he respond?

By the way, why on earth would anyone want to sap all of the personality from the forum?

[Jetmaker737]

From what I've seen in my year on this forum the problems are due to a small handful of personalities. Not too hard to figure out who they are when you spend time here.

Our Polk Audio sponsors have gotten some great ideas in this thread to get things sorted out.

Please keep the forum up! I trust you will take these ideas and do the right thing.

Thanks,
Rick (Jetmaker737)

[steveinaz]

Less drama, more hi-fi talk. I agree, it really is a small handful of problem children (as we called them in the Army).

[snow]

Al,

I communicated some thoughts and suggestions to you last week, one of which was that moderators be properly labeled as such.

Several members have mentioned more and effective moderation. I would like to speak more about that.

An Internet forum, like any public gathering place, must have some procedures in place to deal with people who get "out of place". Armed security is not required at a public library, but people know that if they get out of place, the police are just a phone call away. Likewise, I do not think that heavy handed moderation is required here. Except for those few persons who come here specifically to start trouble, most of us would respond respectfully and appropriately to "courteous correction" from a properly identified moderator. Heated debates can still occur...as long as they remain civil and respectful. Lawyers engage in heated debates in courtrooms without resorting to name calling and threats. Of course, in a courtroom environment, the moderator (the judge) can have offensive lawyers thrown in jail.

It has been mentioned that, perhaps a few members should be given moderator authority. I must say, that has already been tried with mixed results. Your initial statement in this thread was precipitated by a situation where a long time member, who now has moderator authority, misused that authority to "settle" some long-running reciprocal animosity with another member. This same moderator has engaged in repeated verbal abuse toward members (see attached for examples). If Polk management says they want a civil forum environment, then they can't have a moderator going around "fanning the flames". While I respect Mark's long time contributions to the forum in particular and to audio in general, his moderator service has been tarnished by his habit of "getting down and dirty" and "going toe-to-toe" with the membership. This has negatively impacted morale and has caused people inside and outside the forum to question Polk management's integrity for allowing this to go on. We should all be aware that Polk is an international company and this forum is read by people all over the world.

We should all consider what a "moderator" does. A moderator moderates, i.e. mediates, arbitrates, and makes sure that an activity or process stays within certain bounds. As an authority figure, a moderator must "stay above the fray" and must not actively participate in the activity in which he or she moderates. Examples of proper moderation are nightclub security not dancing with or conversing with patrons, police officers not socially interacting with citizens at an event for which they are on duty and political debate moderators not participating in the debate...except to enforce rules. If people walk into a nightclub and see all the security staff out on the dance floor, it gives the impression that there really is no security enforcement and "anything goes". How much credibility would a political debate have if the moderator engaged in arguments with the debaters?

Another thing to consider is that effective moderation requires a certain skill set and a certain temperament. One is no good without the other. If someone is prone to getting easily riled up by other's words, then dealing with the public in an authoritative capacity is not the right place for such an person because their temper and patience will be tested time and time again. Justin seemed to be able to diffuse "situations" with a few words. Sometimes he would just lock a thread and ask members to move on. I think that if we had a few moderators of this sort, it would lay the framework for a civil forum environment.


Ours is one of the better and more informative audio forums around. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be here. The forum can be made even better by the implementation of a few of the "best practices" that other successful forums use for member management.No doubt that both Mark and Russ have stepped over the line of civility many times since they began moderating, in the last year or so Mark has refrained from a lot of this type of behavior and I applaud him for it and the forum is a better place for it. Russ hasnt been around or at least posting much so hard to say what his behavior is like today. One of the first things I mentioned in my first post here was that EVERYONE needs to follow the rules and to make the forum operate smoothly the rules and punishments need to be equitablly dispersed and moderators shouldndt be exempt from these rules. To be fair I also have stepped over that line and I havent been banned yet but if the rules were to be enforced there is little doubt in my mind that I wouldndt have at least a temp ban by now.




I am in 100% agreement with DarqueKnight's comments on this matter. Moderate moderators is what is needed. No doubt that the moderators of all people should be held to a higher standard if anything than the regular members, it is hard for others to obey the rules if the mods dont and people see this.

None of us can go back and change whats happened in the past but in the future we can all do better, and if warnings and bans are passed out then I believe the rest of us will toe the line or suffer the penaltys.



REGARDS SNOW

[Keiko]

I'm in the camp of appointing a couple more moderators that can assist Patrick and Mark.

Deal with the trolls swiftly. It seems clear that we have some coming out of the woodwork from other places with the intent of stirring up trouble.

Up the post count and/or have a minimum 'X' amount of time before new members can start selling in the FM. Positive participation on CP, in my opinion is key here.

In light of Al's OP, some real 'Self Moderating' has to start happening now. Sometimes I find myself losing it and getting annoyed with an obvious troublemaker. It is difficult, but will step up efforts in ignoring these types and let the powers that be deal with them. I'd really hate to see Polk shut down the forum, it's a place I've really come to love. I spent a lot of time here learning, bantering and made some really good friends along the way. It would really suck to have something so special as CP shut down.


Mike

[DarqueKnight]

This was absolutely not the place to attempt to settle a grudge. How can he respond?

For clarification, I do not have a grudge against Mark or any other person on this forum. No one here has any control over any aspect of my life, nor can any person here deny me any of my life's necessities, therefore it would be senseless for me to hold a "grudge" against someone for anything that occurs here.

Al asked for suggestions and I gave mine, with documentation to support just one of my points.

I was not calling for Mark to be removed nor did I say he was a bad moderator. I specifically said his moderator service has had mixed results. I think he is a good moderator who has done some inappropriate things, as have we all. However, any person vested with the authority to enforce rules should set a proper example of following those rules. I would have the same opinion if it were any other authority figure in a similar situation.

[shawn474]

I'm in the camp of appointing a couple more moderators that can assist Patrick and Mark.


Mike, I don't disagree with much of what you said. But aren't we really talking about a clash of personalities? Nobody is ALWAYS going to get along with everyone (mods included). Wouldn't adding more mods complicate the clash, enforcement of rules, objectivity, consistency, etc? Just saying that more is not always better.

[shawn474]

For clarification, I do not have a grudge against Mark or any other person on this forum. No one here has any control over any aspect of my life, nor can any person here deny me any of my life's necessities, therefore it would be senseless for me to hold a "grudge" against someone for anything that occurs here.

Al asked for suggestions and I gave mine, with documentation to support just one of my points.

I was not calling for Mark to be removed nor did I say he was a bad moderator. I specifically said his moderator service has had mixed results. I think he is a good moderator who has done some inappropriate things, as have we all. I would have the same opinion if it were any other authority figure in a similar situation.


Then why not do this over PM? You clearly pointed out specific posts from Mark that were one sided and made him look bad. You didn't include ONE of his 15,000 or so that have helped people on this forum including me. Nor did you post any other posts that lead to the comments. I think even Tom would admit that he has made some jabbing remarks to Mark in the past in an attempt to get a rise out of him. Was Mark off base or out of line in those posts that you cited? Yes; nobody would argue there. To some degree I would say yes, but knowing Mark as I do, I think a lot were more a failed attempt at humor that sometimes gets misinterpreted. So your intentions should be called into question with your post.

[wz2p7j]

I'm in the camp of appointing a couple more moderators that can assist Patrick and Mark.

Deal with the trolls swiftly. It seems clear that we have some coming out of the woodwork from other places with the intent of stirring up trouble.

Up the post count and/or have a minimum 'X' amount of time before new members can start selling in the FM. Positive participation on CP, in my opinion is key here.

In light of Al's OP, some real 'Self Moderating' has to start happening now. Sometimes I find myself losing it and getting annoyed with an obvious troublemaker. It is difficult, but will step up efforts in ignoring these types and let the powers that be deal with them. I'd really hate to see Polk shut down the forum, it's a place I've really come to love. I spent a lot of time here learning, bantering and made some really good friends along the way. It would really suck to have something so special as CP shut down.


Mike

Keiko, I like to see your posts regarding your dogs as I am an animal lover too. I'm not sure I ever know your name was "Mike." It's good to know and personalizes the forum. I wish more here would do that but instead chose to hide behind sometimes intimidating screen names.

Best regards, Chris

[steveinaz]

Mike, I don't disagree with much of what you said. But aren't we really talking about a clash of personalities? Nobody is ALWAYS going to get along with everyone (mods included). Wouldn't adding more mods complicate the clash, enforcement of rules, objectivity, consistency, etc? Just saying that more is not always better.

Being a moderator isn't a popularity contest.

[Keiko]

I see where you're coming from, Shawn, but the key word is "assist." I foresee some new ground rules being set. Having another mod or two might actually help with carrying the burden Mark and Patrick already have.

[I-SIG]

Watching and waiting.....

Wes

[shawn474]

Being a moderator isn't a popularity contest.


Ok, never said it was. It's a job I wouldn't even want with all of the headaches a BS you have to deal with. Where in any post have I implied that it was a popularity contest?

[treitz3]

I think even Tom would admit that he has made some jabbing remarks to Mark in the past in an attempt to get a rise out of him.If memory serves correctly, I would say not. If you could provide at least one situation otherwise, I would stand corrected. I would venture to say that if I did jab at him, it was about an audio related issue or maybe a deserving apology. ;)

[phuz]

This ceased to be a Polk forum when the serial number requirement was changed. This has become just another internet audio forum, although it still feels like the Polk home to a lot of us. It's going through the same growing pains that any public internet forum goes through and you're right you will either have to shut it down, or go hardcore with moderation.

Some things other forums have done that works:

1. Paid Membership - annual renewal. A very basic simple few forums that are heavily moderated for free members, basic help for free. Paid members have a vested interest in keeping things on the up and up. They get access to the more advanced forums/features. Or bring back the serial number requirement and more strict membership requirements.

2. Define strict and clear rules, and enforce them without hesitation, openly, with clear reasons for closing of threads, bans, etc. Each ban/lock should be closed with "Code of conduct #(insert rule here) violation" - so that there is no question what the rules are and why action is taken. More moderators are needed, at least one for each topic/sub-forum. A few people for this size of a forum is way too much. That way not EVERYONE goes to 1 or 2 mods for every issue. If there's an issue on the car audio forum, I go to the car audio mod, if there's a problem on the speaker forum, I go to the speaker forum mod.

3. Spin if off. I think we'd all understand if this was no longer an official Polk forum. Just don't get rid of it.

4. Provide a place for people to "have it out" - keep the drama away from the general forums. Sorta like the hall of shame, but open to everyone. If I want to call someone out on their BS, I should be able to do it in the hall of shame. That's where the nasty stuff goes, allowing everyone else to stay clear if they want.

There will ALWAYS be issues, and the need/desire for folks to get attention, stirr the hornets nest, and (insert favorite cliche here). This is just how the internet is these days. You MUST have sufficient volunteers to moderate, and a clearly defined set of rules that is stricly enforced. I frequent another forum at ar15.com and they are a perfect example of how to run a public internet forum and also how to make it self sufficient, and cost effective.

Just my thoughts....

[DarqueKnight]

Then why not do this over PM? You clearly pointed out specific posts from Mark that were one sided and made him look bad.

If you feel that my commentary was one-sided, inaccurate, misleading or inappropriate, you are welcome to submit whatever documentation you feel is necessary to support your position. I would just ask that you stay on topic per the original poster's (Al's) request for suggestions.

I have already articulated all the points I wanted to make and I wish you success in your rebuttal and any other future comments you wish to make regarding this matter.

[shawn474]

I see where you're coming from, Shawn, but the key word is "assist." I foresee some new ground rules being set. Having another mod or two might actually help with carrying the burden Mark and Patrick already have.

I guess that therein lies the problem to me. Are more moderators going to miraculously cause anyone to change the way that they are acting? I don't think so at all. I think the big thing Al was getting at that people need to self moderate and abide by the rules. If not, consequences are set. There might be more rules coming; who knows? But unless they are enforced to everyone on the forum and everyone rspects the forum rules and the privilege to be a member here, I don't see much changing. Maybe more moderators could more efficiently enforce? Is that what you're getting at?

By the way, I am sure I have violated some of the forum rules in this thread so I will accept any punishment that mods see fit.

[Fongolio]

Until today I did not know that RuSsMaN is also a moderator.

[steveinaz]

You mentioned:

"Nobody is ALWAYS going to get along with everyone (mods included). Wouldn't adding more mods complicate the clash, enforcement of rules, objectivity, consistency, etc?"

I took that to mean more mods would just create more personalities to deal with. It's not about "personalities" it's about having the bodies to keep the trolls and trouble makers at bay. Most of the problem is created when posts that are obviously going south aren't locked down immediately, and people reprimanded. I've seen these types of posts last for days--and gets uglier and uglier as time passes.

[Serendipity]

Sometimes we have misunderstandings in communication. But I truly don't believe anyone is out there to hurt another and that we can all get along. For example, I got a PM that stated:


My comments were made in generality and not to you in oarticular. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I have absolutely no problem at all with you and enjoy your posts.

This is what makes Club Polk a wonderful forum.

[phuz]

I am in 100% agreement with DarqueKnight's comments on this matter. Moderate moderators is what is needed.

You CAN NOT have moderate moderators, when there are ONLY TWO OR THREE for a forum this size. Eventually those people will get overwhelmed, emotionally involved, etc. from the sheer volume and magnitute of the crap they have to deal with.

MORE moderators are needed with clearly defined areas of the forums. So that they each can deal with their respective areas, instead of dealing with everything. THEN, once that is in place it will be easier to spot ones that might be biased or unjustifiably hard. There is no such thing as having good moderators for a forum this size with only a few people doing it. It would wear anyone down over time and is a time bomb waiting to happen.

[shawn474]

You mentioned:

"Nobody is ALWAYS going to get along with everyone (mods included). Wouldn't adding more mods complicate the clash, enforcement of rules, objectivity, consistency, etc?"

I took that to mean more mods would just create more personalities to deal with. It's not about "personalities" it's about having the bodies to keep the trolls and trouble makers at bay. Most of the problem is created when posts that are obviously going south aren't locked down immediately, and people reprimanded. I've seen these types of posts last for days--and gets uglier and uglier as time passes.


I see what you're saying and agree to a point. But then if we, the membership, are behaving in ways that cause threads to be locked down, aren't we the ones at fault? Not the mods who have other stuff to deal with as well as this forum. It can't be policed 24/7. My whole point is that WE are the ones causing the problems when mods have to step in - no matter how long it takes them to shut it down or dole out reprimands. It goes back to US acting more civil towards one another so it doesn't get out of hand. After all, they do have an ignore button for the trolls and people you just don't like. If we choose to engage them and don't have the willpower to click ignore, that's on us, not the mods.

[shawn474]

You CAN NOT have moderate moderators

Fixed it; we cannot all agree on what is moderate, liberal, conservative or anything else. It just isn't possible.

[steveinaz]

Ref: post #214:
You're absolutely right Shawn, unfortunately to date--we haven't gotten our collective **** together.

[Serendipity]

No matter what happens, I seriously hope this forum stays around.

[kab]

...It's comments like this that make me cynical about the future here. While nobody but Polk owns this forum, you cannot deny that there are many folks out there who have put a lot into this place, be it money, time, or knowledge. They did it for nothing other than to make friends and have a place to hang out.


I'm sorry but I can't let this go unchallenged. I know those who layed the foundation and those who built the Forum brick by brick. I love and respect those guys and know most of them personally. Still, I must ask them to welcome and be patient with the newbie. Would you have me create two forums? One for the old timers and another for everyone else. How many would be hanging with the old timers? Where would you fall?

[treitz3]

Al, IMO no need to go to two forums. This place is great as it is. Just needs a little "tweaking" is all. ;)

You have some great input and opinions coming from about every angle fathomable in this thread. Embrace it, absorb it and make your own informed decision. 2 forums? Not a good idea, but that's just me thinking out loud. Good luck with any decision you and Polk decide to make.

Two forums would lose the magic this place brings to the table.

[Roy Munson]

You mentioned:

"Nobody is ALWAYS going to get along with everyone (mods included). Wouldn't adding more mods complicate the clash, enforcement of rules, objectivity, consistency, etc?"

I took that to mean more mods would just create more personalities to deal with. It's not about "personalities" it's about having the bodies to keep the trolls and trouble makers at bay. Most of the problem is created when posts that are obviously going south aren't locked down immediately, and people reprimanded. I've seen these types of posts last for days--and gets uglier and uglier as time passes.

Damn Steve, you managed to hit the nail on the head twice now!

The whole point of more moderators is to nip problems in the bud before all the name calling etc. starts. Mark imo has done are very good job of watching over the forum but we need more Marks because this forum has grown to a point that I think it's not possible to expect 1 or 2 people to have the time needed to catch things fast enough.

When a troll comes here from another forum just to stir things up it needs to be dealt with swiftly. When flame wars start someone should have the authority to put the fire out quickly. One person just isn't enough..geez if Mark gets a little testy from time to time who can really blame him, after all hes been doing this a long time and built up friendships and I'm sure some detractors also.

The point imo is, we have the rules in place now that are for the most part beneficial to the forum but only if they are followed or moderated and a couple of extra mods I think would be advantageous to all. YMMV

[shawn474]

Damn Steve, you managed to hit the nail on the head twice now!

The whole point of more moderators is to nip problems in the bud before all the name calling etc. starts. Mark imo has done are very good job of watching over the forum but we need more Marks because this forum has grown to a point that I think it's not possible to expect 1 or 2 people to have the time needed to catch things fast enough.

When a troll comes here from another forum just to stir things up it needs to be dealt with swiftly. When flame wars start someone should have the authority to put the fire out quickly. One person just isn't enough..geez if Mark gets a little testy from time to time who can really blame him, after all hes been doing this a long time and built up friendships and I'm sure some detractors also.

The point imo is, we have the rules in place now that are for the most part beneficial to the forum but only if they are followed or moderated and a couple of extra mods I think would be advantageous to all. YMMV


Again if WE learn some self restraint not to feed the trolls or fan the flame wars, more mods wouldn't be needed (although I wouldn't be against adding more). The rest will take care of itself in due time.

[shack]

Then why not do this over PM? You clearly pointed out specific posts from Mark that were one sided and made him look bad. You didn't include ONE of his 15,000 or so that have helped people on this forum including me. Nor did you post any other posts that lead to the comments.

Agreed.

[halo71]

Funny thing....after this thread, and what has been said in it. ALREADY there sits a thread locked. Yeah more mods may be needed....cause the flames are STILL being fanned! :rolleyes:

[nooshinjohn]

Two forums are not needed Kab, but I do feel that having newbs go through a bit of an orientation process before full and unfettered access is given would help quite a bit. I will be the first to state that it would have helped me immeasureably. It would also allow Mods to isolate and identify potential problems and correct them. An example would be the spammers that seem to run rampant here on a daily basis. They could be virtually eliminated right up front. Potential troublemakes would also be weeded out for the most part rather quickly...

I remember clearly some months ago we had a rash of newbs coming in and making vile racist comments here on every thread. This is just one example of the type of attack against this forum I have seen. More active moderation and a restriction of forum access could have prevented them from doing what they did. I also remember that one of the trolls from that event lingered for a couple days afterwards until another member properly pointed out the meaning of the troll's name.

More active moderation is clearly needed, but there should be clear rules that every mod must follow, and every member here must abide by. I am not saying that draconian, big-brother tactics should be employed, but it does not serve the collective good to come down on seasoned members of this community for trying to protect this community when the trolls are allowed to remain. The disease cannot be cured until the cause has been treated(warned) or cut out(banned).

I respect you and the other mods. You guys have a tough job to do. Back in the old west, when the sherriff needed to take on the bad guys, he deputized all the firepower needed to back him up. Such times are where we find ourselves now. I believe it's time to clean up this town (remove the trolls)and restore order (updated rules) so that we can be prosperous once again.

[janmike]

Welcome back Joe.

Yes, welcome back Joe. Hope all has been worked out.

[Roy Munson]

I see what you're saying and agree to a point. But then if we, the membership, are behaving in ways that cause threads to be locked down, aren't we the ones at fault?

Indeed we are, but expecting a group of people the size of CP to act civilly all the time just isn't going to happen in the real world. People are going to get out of line at times and that's when the mods need to step in. Self policing is a great idea but I'm afraid it doesn't really work in the long run.

So yes, we the members are at fault but I believe we need to be "guided" from time to time.

[phuz]

I say ban Cathy. She's the troublemaker.

Yeah but you have to make sure you ban her AT LEAST 200 times! :p

[McLoki]

Just judging from the 6+ pages of responses to how to make the forum better, I would have to say there is a plethora of chiefs and darn few indians. There is a reason in any large gathering of people the people making the decisions are usually far outnumbered by those that have to live by them.

I really enjoy the Polk forum and due to that, I am one of the few here that don't really have many suggestions for how to improve it other than this: There needs to be a lot of growing up on both sides of the fence. From both those giving the crap and from those taking it. Its an internet forum for Gods sake - If you consider your place on this forum as one of your more defining characteristics - You really need to back away from the keyboard for awhile and do some serious self evaluation...

I am sure more change is on the way - through it all, some will stay, some will not. I am inherently lazy and a creature of habit, so i plan to stay unless told otherwise. For those screaming for change both in this thread and in the past - please keep this basic rule close to your heart:

"Change is inherently different - not better"

Michael

[comfortablycurt]

Ok. I didn't read through this entire thread...but I will later on. There have been some good points made...some bad points made, some points that left me scratching my head thinking "wtf?"...but mostly good points.

As far as separating the Clubhouse into different sections? I don't see that making much difference personally. By separating it, all you'd really be serving to do is limit the number of people that might see a specific thread, and thus limit the advice you're likely to get on it.

For instance, I personally wouldn't look at a "home improvement" section very much. A lot of others wouldn't either. I don't have much to offer as far as advice for that topic anyway, but many others who would be able to wouldn't see them either. An automotive section? There again, I wouldn't really look at it very much, nor would many others. I don't come here to discuss automotive issues, but I may still become involved in an automotive discussion if I see the thread.

The Clubhouse is a the general discussion area. Any topics are ok there. As far as politics go...I don't really see that being a very big issue here. Yes, there have been a few politically fueled threads that have gotten out of hand, but it doesn't happen very often from what I've seen.

I can be guilty of getting a bit out of hand sometimes myself...but I've been trying to do better in those regards. Anymore, I try to stay away from cable debates...try to avoid the troll bait and only really discuss topics that I'm directly interested in.

Also, I feel that we really need more mods here. Not to say that Doro and Patrick don't do a good job, but this place is too big, with far too many members for only a few people to be able to effectively moderate it. Identification of the mods would help quite a bit as well. I didn't know that Russman was a mod until just a few months ago. I didn't know that Doro was a mod until I'd been a member here for almost a year.


One of the biggest problems I see here, as Al mentioned, is some of the senior members feeling like they own the place. They seem to think that since they've been around for so long, they have the right to say whatever the want, to whomever they want, without any consequences. They discourage a lot of the newbs from posting a lot, and generally don't seem to want new members here at all.

What some people need to understand, is that anyone is welcome at this board. Someone might have 15,000 posts, but that doesn't mean that they necessarily have any more audio related knowledge than a new member with only 5 posts under their belt. Some of these new members might be able to contribute a lot of useful knowledge to this board, but a lot of them turn tail and run when they get attacked by some of the senior members.

As I said before, I'm not totally innocent. I've pissed some people off in my time here, but I've also made some great friends. The ignore list is a great feature if there are people here that bother you. Personally, my ignore list has 0 people on it...I like to read some of the comments from the stupid people. It provides me with some comic relief to my day. However, I might not necessarily respond. Generally, I just shrug my shoulders, laugh and go spend some time listening to my 2 channel rig. That is why we're all here, correct? The enjoyment of audio and audio gear?

[Zero]

Good Lord people.. stop making this so complicated. The only reason why this forum is where its at now is because some members don't know when or how to STFU, and few measures are ever taken to encourage them to do so. You won't correct this by adding new circles, introducing orientation periods, or any other random band aide. You can correct it by moderating the site through trusted folks who are willing to volunteer their time to keep the ship that is Club Polk running smoothly. The rules are clear and solid, they just need enforced, thats all.

Thats it. It's that simple. The only real work involved is finding the right folks for the job and then determining a fair and fluid "behind the scenes" infrastructure.

[treitz3]

Self policing is a great idea but I'm afraid it doesn't really work in the long run. So yes, we the members are at fault but I believe we need to be "guided" from time to time.From the first post by Al...
Self policing is clearly not working.

[shawn474]

Tom, if we are all not mature enough to self police our own actions from this point forward after a plea from Al and the threat of shutting down the forum, give a good reason why Polk should give us the privilege of this forum?

[wz2p7j]

Two forums are not needed Kab, but I do feel that having newbs go through a bit of an orientation process before full and unfettered access is given would help quite a bit. I will be the first to state that it would have helped me immeasureably. It would also allow Mods to isolate and identify potential problems and correct them. An example would be the spammers that seem to run rampant here on a daily basis. They could be virtually eliminated right up front. Potential troublemakes would also be weeded out for the most part rather quickly...

I remember clearly some months ago we had a rash of newbs coming in and making vile racist comments here on every thread. This is just one example of the type of attack against this forum I have seen. More active moderation and a restriction of forum access could have prevented them from doing what they did. I also remember that one of the trolls from that event lingered for a couple days afterwards until another member properly pointed out the meaning of the troll's name.

More active moderation is clearly needed, but there should be clear rules that every mod must follow, and every member here must abide by. I am not saying that draconian, big-brother tactics should be employed, but it does not serve the collective good to come down on seasoned members of this community for trying to protect this community when the trolls are allowed to remain. The disease cannot be cured until the cause has been treated(warned) or cut out(banned).

I respect you and the other mods. You guys have a tough job to do. Back in the old west, when the sherriff needed to take on the bad guys, he deputized all the firepower needed to back him up. Such times are where we find ourselves now. I believe it's time to clean up this town (remove the trolls)and restore order (updated rules) so that we can be prosperous once again.

John, I appreciate your diplomacy. The "orientation" around here has been a hazing at times for some of the newbs and even others. I was shocked a while back when the ruling CP clique turned on you for a period of time, and I thought you were one of the "good" guys around here. Always contributing something.

That's the kind of crap that needs to go. It's a great forum for periods of time then suddenly our own members turn on one another. Someone called it the "pack" mentallity. I think we need more, fair handed moderation.

Chris

[Ricardo]

Wow. I got it now. You just need to read this thread.

[nooshinjohn]

John, I appreciate your diplomacy. The "orientation" around here has been a hazing at times for some of the newbs and even others. I was shocked a while back when the ruling CP clique turned on you for a period of time, and I thought you were one of the "good" guys around here. Always contributing something.

That's the kind of crap that needs to go. It's a great forum for periods of time then suddenly our own members turn on one another. Someone called it the "pack" mentallity. I think we need more, fair handed moderation.

Chris

Thanks wz... I appreciate the kind words, but I would be the first to say I was(can be) a bit of a douche;) from time to time.

Club Polk has been way to diplomatic. This needs to be more of a "Benevolent Dictatorship" instead.

[snow]

Then why not do this over PM? You clearly pointed out specific posts from Mark that were one sided and made him look bad. You didn't include ONE of his 15,000 or so that have helped people on this forum including me. Nor did you post any other posts that lead to the comments. I think even Tom would admit that he has made some jabbing remarks to Mark in the past in an attempt to get a rise out of him. Was Mark off base or out of line in those posts that you cited? Yes; nobody would argue there. To some degree I would say yes, but knowing Mark as I do, I think a lot were more a failed attempt at humor that sometimes gets misinterpreted. So your intentions should be called into question with your post.I think he was trying to make a point, which I believe he succeded quite well at, if you believe that Mark or Russ either one have been perfect little angels before or after becoming moderators then you really need to start looking at older posts by these people, some of the most rude, insensitive, offensive even racially slanted things I have seen on this forum have came out of their mouths.

We all need to do better and we all need to follow the rules, simple as that. The problems that exsist today are a direct result of actions by both members and mods, new members and old timers. Im sure if you dug deep enough you could find some pretty nasty posts by me also.

Hell even some of my closest friends on this forum have typed some things that I was ashamed to see and my respect for them dropped accordingly. I truly believe that Mark has done some very nice things and helped people on this forum also and lilkewise with Russ, but I see a lot of ass kissing going on with both old timers and mods and it's pitiful to see this type of behavior. Are the people who do this truly that lonely or in need of being accepted? Grow a set and stand up for what is right if you see a mod get out of line report it the same way you would with another member new or old.



REGARDS SNOW

[Keiko]

Maybe more moderators could more efficiently enforce?

That's the general idea. Mark and Patrick can't be here all the time. Having a couple of even tempered regulars to enforce the rules and conduct of the camaraderie could be beneficial. Bottom line though, we need to get our sh*t together.

[Roy Munson]

Tom, if we are all not mature enough to self police our own actions from this point forward after a plea from Al and the threat of shutting down the forum, give a good reason why Polk should give us the privilege of this forum?

It's my opinion that there are members here that are unable to get along and just one or two key words are enough to set them off regardless of what the consequences might be as far as CP goes. I might be full of it but I've seen it happen all to often and I don't think a plea by Al will make any difference eto these people!

[disneyjoe7]

I'm not sure but feel Mod's should be not be marked as so, but giving power to close threads remove threads and be able to remove user as in the case of spam.

[Serendipity]

That's the general idea. Mark and Patrick can't be here all the time. Having a couple of even tempered regulars to enforce the rules and conduct of the camaraderie could be beneficial..

Sure, why not have a few un-biased regulars help Mark and Patrick out?

[cfrizz]

Again if WE learn some self restraint not to feed the trolls or fan the flame wars, more mods wouldn't be needed (although I wouldn't be against adding more). The rest will take care of itself in due time.

THANK YOU! Everyone is always trying to find someone else to blame rather than taking responsibility for THEIR own behavior.

Use the ignore & report this post features more rather than the reply to this post button first.

[wz2p7j]

Thanks wz... I appreciate the kind words, but I would be the first to say I was(can be) a bit of a douche;) from time to time.

Club Polk has been way to diplomatic. This needs to be more of a "Benevolent Dictatorship" instead.

Hey John, not a problem. Remember that time I PM'd you? I really couldn't figure out what you did to incur the wrath of the pack. If you're a douche, read on:

I remember Candy Liquor. Guy got run right out of here. This forum just HATED that guy. I had some minor dealings with the guy and he was square with me. I think he was handicapped or something and really liked hanging out here.

I remember some hurricane or something was coming his way one time and he posted about his fear here. Some of the guys posted supportive stuff. Others including some Polk veterans openly wished he'd get wasted by the hurricane. Couldn't believe what I was reading. Maybe trying to be funny but obviously in poor taste.

It's up to us to be better.

Chris

[shawn474]

I think he was trying to make a point, which I believe he succeded quite well at, if you believe that Mark or Russ either one have been perfect little angels before or after becoming moderators......

Not at all; I noticed and realize that they make mistakes too. My point in DarquKnights's case was that he only took 5 posts (of which i am sure there are more) to paint a picture of Mark that I feel is inaccurate. He has helped MANY MANY people on this forum and his sense of humor rubs a lot of people the wrong way and I know he has let emotions get the best of him at times. Anyone who thinks they wouldn't as a moderator is kidding themselves. As you said, you haven't been an angel yourself on this forum ;) and for the record neither have I.



I truly believe that Mark has done some very nice things and helped people on this forum also and lilkewise with Russ, but I see a lot of ass kissing going on with both old timers and mods and it's pitiful to see this type of behavior. Are the people who do this truly that lonely or in need of being accepted? Grow a set and stand up for what is right if you see a mod get out of line report it the same way you would with another member new or old.

If you see any of my posts as kissing mark's ass, you're mistaken. I make no bones about it; Mark is my friend. If he steps out of line and someone asks my opinion I will give it. But who am I to judge him when I have done the same thing that he is being run over the coals for. Bottom line is so has EVERYONE else. Does it make it right? Of course not. The ONLY thing that will work is for the rules to be adhered to and people getting reprimanded appropriately (me included). You admit to participating in the same things being discussed here.

The only thing that really bothers me is when people hold others to a higher standard than they hold themselves. From this point forward the answer is simple. Abide by the rules or reap what you sow.

[shawn474]

Here's another question.......before you start bashing this member or that mod, ask yourself one thing before you start posting about what's wrong with this forum and what can fix it. What have you done for the greater good of this forum? Have you arranged PolkFest? Have you attened gatherings? Have you given up karma? Have you taken time out of your busy day to meet or help someone from the foum? Have you done ANYTHING besides sit behind a keyboard? I am not pointing out anyone in particular, I am just asking. We all need to look in the mirror and figure out that the root of this lies with the membership.

[Serendipity]

I've said this before:

I don't think I have any quarrels with anybody on this forum.

I really like you all!

[Demiurge]

I'm sorry but I can't let this go unchallenged. I know those who layed the foundation and those who built the Forum brick by brick. I love and respect those guys and know most of them personally. Still, I must ask them to welcome and be patient with the newbie. Would you have me create two forums? One for the old timers and another for everyone else. How many would be hanging with the old timers? Where would you fall?

I didn't intend any disrespect by that comment, but I acknowledge the way it was phrased wasn't fair. What I'm trying to say is there are many people here who have given a lot to this forum beyond what you see elsewhere on the web for no other reason than friendship and community. I know you're well aware of this and I apologize for phrasing my comments in a way that made it seem like you were overlooking it.

I quoted that particular statement because in a way this place is what it is because of people like that (I don't claim to be among them having taken far more than I have been able to give).

I don't think there's anything wrong with your expectation (highlighted). In fact, I think that it should go without saying. Obviously it hasn't or this thread wouldn't exist. :o

The problem I see is that by the time Mark, Patrick, or Russ get here the damage has long since been done and the e-mail is already sitting in your inbox. While it would be great to rely on everyone having self-restraint when tempers flair, that's just not realistic. None of us are perfect and I get in my fair share of dust-ups.

I respect the predicament Polk is in here from a cost/benefit perspective.

The solution, to me, really seems to be giving a slew of moderators a shot with some revamped rules. I think these should be people who know what the spirit of Club Polk is.

[snow]

If you see any of my posts as kissing mark's ass, you're mistaken. I make no bones about it; Mark is my friend. If he steps out of line and someone asks my opinion I will give it. But who am I to judge him when I have done the same thing that he is being run over the coals for. Bottom line is so has EVERYONE else. Does it make it right? Of course not. The ONLY thing that will work is for the rules to be adhered to and people getting reprimanded appropriately (me included). You admit to participating in the same things being discussed here.

The only thing that really bothers me is when people hold others to a higher standard than they hold themselves. From this point forward the answer is simple. Abide by the rules or reap what you sow. I wasnt pointing you out as an ass kisser or any other person in particular just the fact that it does happen with both the mods and with old timers. Many a time I have seen someone post something that was clearly wrong and or out of line and once the poster has been jumped by someone about what they posted a stream of people will jump to their aid even though the OP was clearly wrong in saying what he or she said. I understand the need to protect one of your buddies it's the natural thing to do but the pack mentality is part of the problem at CP amongst many other problems. And yes the bottom line is we all need to follow the rules and they need to be enforced or its just a waste of time having them.



REGARDS SNOW

[wz2p7j]

Here's another question.......before you start bashing this member or that mod, ask yourself one thing before you start posting about what's wrong with this forum and what can fix it. What have you done for the greater good of this forum? Have you arranged PolkFest? Have you attened gatherings? Have you given up karma? Have you taken time out of your busy day to meet or help someone from the foum? Have you done ANYTHING besides sit behind a keyboard? I am not pointing out anyone in particular, I am just asking. We all need to look in the mirror and figure out that the root of this lies with the membership.

Shawn, you make a great point. When I look in the mirror all I see is a guy that just sits behind a keyboard. But I enjoy reading the posts here and joining in the discussion. I'm hoping some day to have some better equipment worth discussing and maybe coming to some of the events. Wish I could do some Karma but given the choice, I'll sell on eBay. Sorry, times are pretty tight.

Chris

[hearingimpared]

Here's my personal opinion. This forum is the best place of its kind on the internet. I come here multiple times a day to research, shop, talk, comment, etc. Some people I like, others I don't. Some people I agree with, some I don't. Sometimes I let my emotions get the best of me, sometimes I don't. I am sure I am on some people's ignore list. Nobody has made it to mine yet.

All that said, I see the only simple solution (and I think it needs to be simple because if Al / Polk feel there is too much involved to change the way they want, they may as well just pull the plug), is to establish a new set of specific rules (or keep them the way they are now). If ANYONE posts outside of those rules, first time is a warning. Second time is a week ban. Third time a month and fourth time is permanent. We are all going to lose our tempers or be emotional on certain topics. But with the knowledge that there are consequences for EVERYONE, maybe we can all just learn to get along and accept that there are other veiwpoints and RESPECT each other-new or old, novice or expert, casual listener or hardcore enthusiast, etc.

Shawn

Good post Shawn. I agree with everything you've said.:)

[snow]

Here's another question.......before you start bashing this member or that mod, ask yourself one thing before you start posting about what's wrong with this forum and what can fix it. What have you done for the greater good of this forum? Have you arranged PolkFest? Have you attened gatherings? Have you given up karma? Have you taken time out of your busy day to meet or help someone from the foum? Have you done ANYTHING besides sit behind a keyboard? I am not pointing out anyone in particular, I am just asking. We all need to look in the mirror and figure out that the root of this lies with the membership.I hope my earlier posts were not taken as an oppurtunity to bash Mark, Russ or any one person in particular, my comments were meant to show that everyone here needs to change their behavior if this is going to work not only the old timers or the new comers.

To answer your question, No I have neither setup or attended Polkfest nor any other official gatherings. As far as Karma's go yes I have gave away Karma's, I have gaven money to members of this forum when they were down and out and have never asked for them to return it, I have donated to virtually every cause that has been promoted here, I have sold items behind the scenes to members here at well below their true value. I have gave away items for the cost of shipping and sometimes I have even paid the shipping, and will continue to do these things as long as CP is here. I do the same things in my local community as well, I feel that if one is fortunate enough to have more than others give back simple as that. Someday I may even need the help myself and if there is no givers then there will be no help. Does any of this make me a better person than someone who hasnt done these things? No it only makes me someone who as Demi said earlier someone who cares about this forum and the people here.

Now it may well be that many here have gaven far more than I have and to those that have Bravo good on you keep up the good work :)



REGARDS SNOW