Looking for an AVR for an RTi setup

[britay]

Hello all. I currently have an Onkyo HT-RC160 AVR. It is supposed to be 80W per channel with two channels driven. From what I have been able to surmise based on what I've read, when driving five channels I'm getting significantly less than 80W per channel. That has led me to look for something with more power for my RTi's.

My current setup is:
RTi8 for the fronts
CSi5 for the center
RTi4 for the surrounds
DSW PRO 600 subwoofer

I'm pretty happy with the sound of the RTi8s, but I'm sure they would sound better with more power. I'm looking at possibly another Onkyo (TX-SR707) or the Yamaha RX-V765. I can get the Yamaha for $400 at Newegg, and it has pre-outs so I can add an amp later if desired.

The following items are what I'm looking for in an AVR:
At least 5.1
Support for DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD
Pre-outs for at least five channels
At least 3 HDMI ports
Less than $1000, with a strong preference to $500 or less ;-)

I'd appreciate any suggestions. While I'm looking at the Onkyo and Yamaha, I'm definitely open to other suggestions (especially Denon or Harman Kardon - depending on price). I'm leaning towards the Yamaha because of the price and the pre-outs for all seven channels, but I'm afraid it's 95W per channel is really less than advertised, similar to the Onkyo.

One other thing, since I'm probably not even getting 40W/channel right now, I'm open to getting an AVR with better quality sound even if the rating isn't 95W/channel or more, as long as it has pre-outs so I can upgrade to a better amp later.

[kuntasensei]

The Onkyos are all going to be subject to delivering less power when driving five channels than they're spec'd for until you get up to the TX-NR1007 and above, which have a better power section. That said, if you're crossing the speakers over properly around 80Hz, anything above about 60w RMS is gonna be gravy in the average sized room. Where you really want to consider additional power is if you're driving your speakers full range, in which case you should get the cheapest AVR that gets you pre-outs and then buy some external amplification.

That said, sometimes it's just time to upgrade! The Yamaha will give you a brighter sound than the Onkyo, which you may not like. The neutrality of Onkyo typically works really well with Polk speakers, especially where highs are concerned. Yamaha is a little more bright and forward sounding, which can possibly translate to harshness at the very high end. The newer Onkyos, however, also have Audyssey MultEQ, which does a pretty good job of taming any harshness that exists at the high end. The 707 would definitely be a step up above what you have, though whether you'll hear a vast difference is questionable. Similar to Yamaha, H/K tends to lean toward a brighter tone. Denons are a little more tame and sound fairly warm, so they work pretty well with Polks.

Just gonna throw this out there: If you can drop $1,079 and are feeling an itch to go beyond 5.1/7.1 surround, hit Newegg for Onkyo's TX-NR1007. It sports a fairly honest 135w/ch with 9 channels of amplification, has 192/24 Burr-Brown DACs, supports Audyssey DSX and Dolby PLII-Z, and the network capability (for firmware updates, DLNA music servers and internet radio) makes it an absolute steal at that price. I've been very happy with mine.

[leroyjr1]

http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?rcvr71ch&1271082755&&&/-ONKYO-TXNR807-THX-7-2ch-netwo

http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?rcvr71ch&1269199097&&&/-Pioneer-Elite-SC25-network-tr


http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?rcvr71ch&1269199115&&&/-Pioneer-Elite-VSX23TXH-110w-x


http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?rcvr71ch&1269197685&&&/-Pioneer-Elite-VSX21TXH-110w-x

[mdaudioguy]

Gotta have a pretty large room for 7.1 or higher. 5.1 should be fine. I've been happy with the sound of my RTis and Yamaha. I have an Onkyo too, but prefer the Yamaha with the Polks. YMMV.

[britay]

That said, if you're crossing the speakers over properly around 80Hz, anything above about 60w RMS is gonna be gravy in the average sized room.

Kuntasensei, thanks for the information! I am crossing all my speakers at 80Hz right now. My room size is 22'x18'x9'. Are you saying that 60W RMS is enough for the RTi8s, which can handle up to 250W? I'm still quite new to this, but I've read that I will get better mid- to low-range frequency reproduction with more power. I feel this is where my setup is currently lacking (specifically with the RTi8s).

I've looked at the TX-NR1007 on Newegg, but I'm trying to spend a little less if possible. As good a deal as it is, it's still more than I paid for all five of my speakers and my current AVR combined. :)

Although if I do decide to get spend close to $1000, I may very well go with the NR1007.


The Onkyos are all going to be subject to delivering less power when driving five channels than they're spec'd for until you get up to the TX-NR1007 and above. Are there receivers below $800 that give accurate W/ch specs? Or should I assume that they're all fudging to some extent?

[britay]

Gotta have a pretty large room for 7.1 or higher. 5.1 should be fine. I've been happy with the sound of my RTis and Yamaha. I have an Onkyo too, but prefer the Yamaha with the Polks. YMMV.

Mdaudioguy, thanks for your input on using a Yamaha AVR with the Polks. I'm probably going to stay at 5.1 as long as I'm in this house. Because of the layout of my living room, my surround speakers are in the the back corners already. I'm not sure there's much reason to add rear surround speakers given my configuration.

[britay]

Leroyjr1, thanks for the links. I haven't really considered Pioneer yet. Do you know if they are considered "warmer" like the Onkyo or "brighter" like the Yamaha? I don't think that my local store carries that brand, so I can't go listen for myself.

[leroyjr1]

Leroyjr1, thanks for the links. I haven't really considered Pioneer yet. Do you know if they are considered "warmer" like the Onkyo or "brighter" like the Yamaha? I don't think that my local store carries that brand, so I can't go listen for myself.

Neutral, can't go wrong with the Elite products. For the prices listed above they can't be beat.

[mdaudioguy]

I'm still quite new to this, but I've read that I will get better mid- to low-range frequency reproduction with more power. I feel this is where my setup is currently lacking (specifically with the RTi8s).
Exactly! So, like you mentioned, be sure to keep your options open by ensuring whatever you get has pre-outs. The RTi8s are, by all reports, fabulous for HT.

If I were you, I'd keep my investment in an AVR as low as possible and look for an amp. If you could go as high as $1000 for an AVR, I think you'd be better served with a $400 AVR and then put the rest toward a 3 or 5 channel amp. JMO.

[britay]

If I were you, I'd keep my investment in an AVR as low as possible and look for an amp. If you could go as high as $1000 for an AVR, I think you'd be better served with a $400 AVR and then put the rest toward a 3 or 5 channel amp. JMO.

This was precisely my line of thought, but I wanted to get opinions from folks like yourself that have more experience with home audio than I do before I made a decision I may regret later. Thanks again for your help!

[comfortablycurt]

If you're looking for a big power increase, you won't really find it with a bigger/better AVR. Some AVR's have more power than others, but generally speaking, the amp sections of most AVR's are very similar. Also, there's not going to really be any big volume/power improvements by going from an 80 wpc AVR to a 95, or even 110 wpc AVR. Remember, in order to gain an extra 3 db in volume, you basically have to double your amplifier power.

If you're seeking more power, get a cheaper AVR with pre-outs(an Onkyo 706 or possibly an 805 would both work well), then add an external amp. Even just amping front L/R, or the front three speakers will make a huge difference. Amping those speakers, would also ease the load on the AVR so it can drive the remaining speakers much more efficiently.

Of course, you can also just get a 5 channel amp for all channels.

How do you use your rig mainly? Primarily HT? Do you listen to a lot of music on it? If so, surround sound or 2 channel music listening?


I used to run an RTi HT setup with an Onkyo 606. I had RTi8's and a CSi5 up front, with RTi6's in back. So, it was a very similar setup to yours. It sounded great for HT through my 606, but musically, it left a lot to be desired. The RTi8's turned into an entirely different speaker when hooked up to my 2 channel rig though. Even my little "measly" 100 wpc Adcom GFA-545 made these things sing. The RTi's are really some great sounding speakers when properly amped. If your primary uses are for HT though, external amplification won't make as big of a difference in my experience.

[leroyjr1]

Exactly! So, like you mentioned, be sure to keep your options open by ensuring whatever you get has pre-outs. The RTi8s are, by all reports, fabulous for HT.

If I were you, I'd keep my investment in an AVR as low as possible and look for an amp. If you could go as high as $1000 for an AVR, I think you'd be better served with a $400 AVR and then put the rest toward a 3 or 5 channel amp. JMO.


This was precisely my line of thought, but I wanted to get opinions from folks like yourself that have more experience with home audio than I do before I made a decision I may regret later. Thanks again for your help!


Considering your speakers are very easy to push I'd take a higher end AVR like a Elite sc-25/27 over a low end avr and lower end amp. The extra features and processing in the higher end avr is worth it.

My vote would be get the sc-25 and later down the road if you get bigger and harder to push speakers then just add a amp. The sc-25 have more than enough power for your speakers.

[britay]

How do you use your rig mainly? Primarily HT? Do you listen to a lot of music on it? If so, surround sound or 2 channel music listening?

I use it for HT probably 80% of the time. When I use it to listen to music it's a mixture of 2 channel and surround. I have several classical SACD discs and the rest of the time I listen to 2 channel. Listening to music is where the lack of power is the most noticeable, IMO.

[Erik Tracy]

Considering your speakers are very easy to push I'd take a higher end AVR like a Elite sc-25/27 over a low end avr and lower end amp. The extra features and processing in the higher end avr is worth it.

My vote would be get the sc-25 and later down the road if you get bigger and harder to push speakers then just add a amp. The sc-25 have more than enough power for your speakers.

Yup - this would be a good strategy.

Look for a good deal on a used SC-25/27 - live with that for a bit and then you could go with a good used external amp.

Power up, baby!!

[leroyjr1]

I use it for HT probably 80% of the time. When I use it to listen to music it's a mixture of 2 channel and surround. I have several classical SACD discs and the rest of the time I listen to 2 channel. Listening to music is where the lack of power is the most noticeable, IMO.


It might not be the lack of power but rather the speakers itself. I have both rti a5's (rti 8) and a9's ( rti 12's) and no matter if I give them receiver power or 500 watts they sound great for HT but not as good for music.
Just a thought.

[britay]

Considering your speakers are very easy to push I'd take a higher end AVR like a Elite sc-25/27 over a low end avr and lower end amp. The extra features and processing in the higher end avr is worth it.

My vote would be get the sc-25 and later down the road if you get bigger and harder to push speakers then just add a amp. The sc-25 have more than enough power for your speakers.

I'm definitely considering this option, as well. I started researching the VSX-21TXH and VSX-23TXH earlier today based on your recommendation. My concern with the Pioneer Elite line is that Pioneer states on their website that "Pioneer does NOT authorize any dealers to sell Elite-branded products on the Internet (only in-store sales are permitted)". With this being the case, the price goes up significantly (for the SC-25 anyway...I couldn't find the VSX-23TXH at a store - maybe it's an older model?).

[britay]

It might not be the lack of power but rather the speakers itself. I have both rti a5's (rti 8) and a9's ( rti 12's) and no matter if I give them receiver power or 500 watts they sound great for HT but not as good for music.
Just a thought.

From what I've read, I think that the speakers are a part of the issue. Since I mostly use them for HT, that's okay. But if a better receiver would improve music playback, then I think an upgrade is worthwhile. There's part of me that's bought into the idea that more power will fill in the mid- to low-range frequencies in my music. I'm not saying that I'm right, but that's what I'm thinking. My speakers won't be perfect with a more powerful receiver, but I think they will be better.

BTW...do you consider the Onkyo NR807 or the NR1007 to be similar to Pioneer Elite receivers that you've recommended?

[leroyjr1]

I'm definitely considering this option, as well. I started researching the VSX-21TXH and VSX-23TXH earlier today based on your recommendation. My concern with the Pioneer Elite line is that Pioneer states on their website that "Pioneer does NOT authorize any dealers to sell Elite-branded products on the Internet (only in-store sales are permitted)". With this being the case, the price goes up significantly (for the SC-25 anyway...I couldn't find the VSX-23TXH at a store - maybe it's an older model?).

Those two links I gave you was from a authorized dealer called Hifi Heaven in Green Bay Wi that happens to sell some of there items on Videogon. I've bought two sc-07 from them. Very nice people to deal with and has some very nice hi end gear.

[britay]

Those two links I gave you was from a authorized dealer called Hifi Heaven in Green Bay Wi that happens to sell some of there items on Videogon. I've bought two sc-07 from them. Very nice people to deal with and has some very nice hi end gear.

I'll take another look then. Also, please disregard my question above about the two Onkyos. After reading more about the SC-25, I think I answered my own question. ;)

And thanks again for your feedback. I really appreciate it.

[punk-roc]

+1 for the SC-25..

I recently upgraded from the an Onkyo SR-601 running RTi8 fronts, CSi5 center, and R15 surrounds.. Hunted around on Videogon and got a Pioneer SC-25 for $950 new, which i thought was decent..

I really the like the way my setup sounds now compared to the Onkyo.. I also got my SC-25 from Hi-fi Heaven in Green Bay i believe (via Videgon)

Hope this is helpful..

Jason

[cnh]

There's an Onkyo TX-SR 805 on sale used on this site right above your post at the moment....450. If you're willing to go used and the unit is in good shape it's worth considering!

https://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98006

cnh

[britay]

+1 for the SC-25..

I recently upgraded from the an Onkyo SR-601 running RTi8 fronts, CSi5 center, and R15 surrounds.. Hunted around on Videogon and got a Pioneer SC-25 for $950 new, which i thought was decent..

I really the like the way my setup sounds now compared to the Onkyo.. I also got my SC-25 from Hi-fi Heaven in Green Bay i believe (via Videgon)

Hope this is helpful..

Jason

Thanks for the suggestion. This is one I'm definitely considering if I decide to spend $1000. With this receiver, the class D amp caught my attention. You've got a setup similar to mine, and the RC160 that I've currently got is similar to the SR607 (I believe), so I suspect your 601 was similar. Can you describe the difference in the sound you get from the SC-25 versus the 601?

[britay]

There's an Onkyo TX-SR 805 on sale used on this site right above your post at the moment....450. If you're willing to go used and the unit is in good shape it's worth considering!

https://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98006

cnh

I'm definitely willing to go the used route if it looks like the receiver has been taken care of and the price is right. Thanks for the suggestion.

[punk-roc]

Can you describe the difference in the sound you get from the SC-25 versus the 601?

While I'm not very good at using the normal audio jargon, i'll try to describe why i like the pioneer more =)

I actually really liked my setup with the Onkyo 601, but wanted an AVR with HDMI switching and pre-outs and started shopping around. I expected to use some M2200 Outlaw Audio monoblocks to help power my RTi8s once i found a receiver i liked.

After reading as much as i could (largely reading what the people here had to say with their extensive experiences), I decided the SC-25 had all the features i wanted in an AVR and its amplifier was probably plenty for my setup.

And for the record, i've only logged probably 10-15hours total on the SC-25 since its still really new. I seem to hear a "cleaner" sound out of my RTi8s and CSi5, the Onkyo seemed to struggle more powering the speakers when compared to the easy at which the SC-25 does.

While the sound with the Onkyo was never fatiguing or anything, it just seems that the SC-25 does the same job with far less effort and the speakers produce crisper and cleaner sound. There seems to be more definition within the sound as well. I've only watched a couple movies and played some Mass Effect 2 on the setup, so i haven't listened to any music or extensively listened to movies with intense sound tracks..

Hopefully that's helpful Britay.

Jason

[renowilliams]

+1 on checking used units out. There are times when you can find a real gem. I bought my avr used and have been very happy with it.


Good Luck

[xcapri79]

Thanks for the suggestion. This is one I'm definitely considering if I decide to spend $1000. With this receiver, the class D amp caught my attention. You've got a setup similar to mine, and the RC160 that I've currently got is similar to the SR607 (I believe), so I suspect your 601 was similar. Can you describe the difference in the sound you get from the SC-25 versus the 601?

The Pioneer SC-25 or 27 would be a great choice of an AVR for the RTi's.
M\y last years model SC-07 drives my RTi12's very well. Athough they are relatively easy to drive, the RTi's simply perform better with more power.

A comparison between any of the Pioneer Elite SC receivers and the Onkyo TX-NR1007 would be interesting.

[rcrook317]

feel i need 2 comment here,,,,,i owned those speakers for about a yr w a denon avr then i got a hk 354 w preouts.
1st i used a old kenwood amp....was blown away w the improved sound and improved bass response
then i got a xpa-2 from emotiva and i am blown away every time i play music or do ht...these speakers need an amp.......trust me

[leroyjr1]

feel i need 2 comment here,,,,,i owned those speakers for about a yr w a denon avr then i got a hk 354 w preouts.
1st i used a old kenwood amp....was blown away w the improved sound and improved bass response
then i got a xpa-2 from emotiva and i am blown away every time i play music or do ht...these speakers need an amp.......trust me



The Pioneer SC series is in a totally different league than your HK.

[britay]

Hopefully that's helpful Britay.

Jason

That was definitely helpful and I appreciate your taking the time to respond! I got a chance to listen to the SC-25 this weekend and was impressed. I am seriously considering this receiver - the main question is whether it is so much better than the VSX-23THX that it justifies the additional cost. I couldn't tell much difference between the two, but that may have had a lot to do with how Best Buy had them set up.

[britay]

The Pioneer SC series is in a totally different league than your HK.

Leroy, or anyone else who may know:

When i got a chance to listen to the SC-25 and the VSX-23THX, I couldn't tell much difference between them. I suspect part of the reason was due to the way Best Buy had them set up. Based on what I heard, I'm not sure that the SC-25 was worth the additional cost. Do you know whether the difference (in sound) between these two receivers is a subtle difference or should it have been more pronounced?

It doesn't make sense to spend more for a difference I can't hear, but I think there must have been more of a difference than Best Buy's set up demonstrated.

[cnh]

As pointed out above, the fair comparison between a Pioneer Elite and an Onkyo would involve the 1007 or even higher series.

The SC-25 is FAR more powerful than an Onkyo 600 series...no contest.

The ICE amps will also give you more power, cleaner sound and better dynamic levels than the cheaper VSX-23...you'd need to turn up the sound a bit to hear that. But you will hear it under the right conditions!

The ICE amps are very very 'clean', lots of detail and have an 'almost' inexhaustible reserve of power! The 23 will clip a lot earlier...though it is a FINE AVR for the price.

cnh

[hearingimpared]

Just throwing this out there. If you are willing to go used you can get an NAD T765 or similar for under $1K.

I use a T765 and they are conservatively rated at 125 wpc. It can be used in both 5.1 or 7.1 configurations. It effortlessly drives my RT2000Ps, CS350LS, and Rt/Fx's. I use it for HT duty only and it has plenty of power to shake the house. Not once have I driven it to clipping and I listen to movies very loud. It also has pre-outs.

I would describe the house sound of NAD as warm.

There is another member here pearsall001 that uses the T765 as his preamp in his two channel rig and has compared it to some of the higher end preamps he has ever used and I can attest to the fact that he has used some really great preamps. Take that for what it is worth musically.

[dvran]

+1 on the Onkyo 707.

I think the 707 has the "brains" you need for your setup, plus has pre-outs. I recommend getting a cheap receiver (707) with pre-outs and get a 3-channel pre-amp to drive the fronts. Also, Denon has the model 1910 which has the features you're looking for an also pre-outs.

You'll need to spend some serious dough to get a receiver that will fill in the job of a pre-amp.

[britay]

As pointed out above, the fair comparison between a Pioneer Elite and an Onkyo would involve the 1007 or even higher series.

The SC-25 is FAR more powerful than an Onkyo 600 series...no contest.

The ICE amps will also give you more power, cleaner sound and better dynamic levels than the cheaper VSX-23...you'd need to turn up the sound a bit to hear that. But you will hear it under the right conditions!

The ICE amps are very very 'clean', lots of detail and have an 'almost' inexhaustible reserve of power! The 23 will clip a lot earlier...though it is a FINE AVR for the price.

cnh

I don't listen to music at ear-bleeding levels, and I only listen to movies as loudly as I do because at lower levels I don't hear the more subtle sounds in the movie (the best way I can describe it is that the sound seems to be better balanced at higher volume). I don't know if this means much to anyone that doesn't have a setup similar to mine, but on my HT-RC160 I listen to movies between 45 and 52 usually - I think the volume range is 0-79. When you say that I'll need to turn the sound up a bit, are we talking really loud? My main reason for wanting more power was for better sound in the mid- to low-range frequencies that my RTi8s will reproduce, not so much for more volume. My current receiver gets loud enough, I'd just like for it to sound better at the volumes I listen at. From what I've read, power isn't all about volume (and if I understood correctly, that is part of what you were saying above).

I'm not trying to be a pain here, and I know you know a lot more about this than I do. I'm just trying to get an idea whether the SC-25 will be worth the extra money based on what I'm looking for out of an upgrade. I do think that the SC-25 will be "enough" receiver for me for a long time and will likely eliminate the need for an external amp (in my case). At this point I'm mostly trying to decide whether the VSX-23 might do the same for less. I'm not looking to get out of spending more, I just want to feel comfortable that I'm getting enough more receiver to justify the cost difference.

I don't think I'm supposed to discuss prices here (or maybe that was a different forum?), but part of the issue here is that if I purchase the VSX-23 I will probably get it online, and if I get the SC-25 I will probably get it locally because it's on sale and even though I can get it cheaper online, the price difference is such that I'd prefer to do business with the B&M. But the 25 will be 2.5x the price of the 23 in this scenario.

One other thing, if you don't mind. ;) Will my RTi8s limit the amount of sound difference I might hear between the two? I'm sure you read this a lot, but I don't intend to upgrade my speakers any time soon. I've been very happy with them, and if music reproduction is something less than desired even after upgrading the receiver, I can live with that, because right now it's pretty good. Besides, it may be a while before I could convince my wife that we need something better. :D

I do appreciate all the responses I've gotten, and I hope I'm not exhausting anyone's patience!

[cnh]

To be clear....I'll give an example. I have an Onkyo 605 and an Onkyo 805 among other things. When I compare the 90 watt 605 with the 805 at similar volume levels...the 805 puts out more detail, tighter bass, better imaging and sound stage than its little brother. I don't need to blast the 805 to hear that difference.

When I add a 200 watt power amp to the Onkyo 805 and bypass its internal amps (130 watts/channel) everything I just said about the 605 and the 805 is even better with the power amp in charge at the same volume.

I do believe you should hear a difference between the two Pioneers at similar volumes..I've demoed both models.

However, your question is still relevant. Is the VSX23 good enough?

YES! In its price range it's one of the best and it has a lot of trickle down technology from its more expensive and bigger brothers....like Wolfsen DACs and anti-jitter digital tech, etc.

You'd be fine with that unit if you don't want to break the bank. And since it does have pre-outs..you could always buy a cheap power amp and increase the power to your speakers for a few hundred dollars on the used market.

cnh

[cstmar01]

I personally would say go with the SC-25. If you are looking for a more detailed sound it will do it. I have the A9's hooked up and it does a GREAT job with them. It helps bring out the bass and is very detailed. I personally would save and get the SC-25 for the fact that its very hard to beat at its price. I heard the Onkyo at a dealer powering Def Techs and it was very good as well. However did not do a A/B comparision of them in my set up. The 23 is a good AVR however I think it does lack a bit in the amp section in terms of detail from what I've heard.

[britay]

To be clear....I'll give an example. I have an Onkyo 605 and an Onkyo 805 among other things. When I compare the 90 watt 605 with the 805 at similar volume levels...the 805 puts out more detail, tighter bass, better imaging and sound stage than its little brother. I don't need to blast the 805 to hear that difference.

cnh, THANKS! That's exactly the type of improvement I'm hoping for!

This may be a dumb question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. ;) Will an AVR like the SC-25 "out-class" my speakers? Or should that not even be a consideration?

[britay]

I personally would say go with the SC-25. If you are looking for a more detailed sound it will do it. I have the A9's hooked up and it does a GREAT job with them. It helps bring out the bass and is very detailed. I personally would save and get the SC-25 for the fact that its very hard to beat at its price. I heard the Onkyo at a dealer powering Def Techs and it was very good as well. However did not do a A/B comparision of them in my set up. The 23 is a good AVR however I think it does lack a bit in the amp section in terms of detail from what I've heard.

Another vote for the SC-25. I'm starting to get the idea. :D

[cnh]

I wouldn't worry about that. Rti-A5s are a solid HT speaker that can handle ALL the power the SC-25s have to offer. It can only make them sound better like cstmar01 says above. You're good!


cnh

[britay]

hearingimpaired:

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll have to do some research on that model. I hadn't considered NAD up to this point.

dvran:

I'm still considering the 707, 807, and even 1007. But I'm leaning towards Pioneer because I really like some of the features of the Advanced MCACC funtions.

Are you sure that the Denon 1910 has pre-outs? I looked at a picture of the back and didn't see any. I listened to (and liked) the Denon 2310 and the 3310 at the same time that I listened to the Pioneers, but the 2310 did not have pre-outs and I was told that none of the lower Denon models did either.

[cnh]

You're right.

Only the Denon AVR 3310 and above have pre-outs. I also second hearingimpaired's recommendation of NADs...one thing NAD delivers is a lot of headroom. So tons of reserve power! I'd listen to everything and decide what 'you' like best.

Happy listening!

cnh

[britay]

I wouldn't worry about that. Rti-A5s are a solid HT speaker that can handle ALL the power the SC-25s have to offer. It can only make them sound better like cstmar01 says above. You're good!


cnh

Thanks again, cnh. I really appreciate your input.

[britay]

One last question, and then it's time for me to sit back and decide what I want to do. How much weight should I give the fact that the SC-25 has the network connection? I have an AppleTV for streaming music from iTunes, but would I get better quality sound by streaming directly to the receiver and letting it decode the music? Also, I think that it would be nice to be able to update the AVR's firmware myself. But in real-world usage, is this really a big consideration? What would I have to do to have the VSX-23's firmware updated? Take it to a service center? Will I get charged for that? Do they even provide firmware updates for the 23?

I guess that was more than one question, but it's just one topic.

[hearingimpared]

You're right.

Only the Denon AVR 3310 and above have pre-outs. I also second hearingimpaired's recommendation of NADs...one thing NAD delivers is a lot of headroom. So tons of reserve power! I'd listen to everything and decide what 'you' like best.

Happy listening!

cnh

I think the reason why more people here don't own NAD AVRs is because of the price tag. However, they are well worth it.

[britay]

I think the reason why more people here don't own NAD AVRs is because of the price tag. However, they are well worth it.

I was just looking at that AVR. Looks like a really nice one. Now I have one more to add to my list of "finalists", although I would have to get a used one (or refurbished).

[Demiurge]

another vote for the sc-25. I'm starting to get the idea. :d

Get the SC-25

[hearingimpared]

I was just looking at that AVR. Looks like a really nice one. Now I have one more to add to my list of "finalists", although I would have to get a used one (or refurbished).

That's what I was suggesting. A refurb would be even better if a used one is out of warranty. If you do plan on buying a used one make sure the seller has the original receipt and it is from an authorized NAD dealer. NAD will honor the warranty in that case.

BTW I had purchased a T773 in the past that had factory defects in it. It was long out of warranty but NAD replaced it FOR FREE with the T765 with free shipping, that bad boy is beast heavy. The T773 was their flagship model at the time (before the Master Series) and the T765 had more features and more power than the T773.

Just a thumbs up for NAD customer service and their policies.

[britay]

That's what I was suggesting. A refurb would be even better if a used one is out of warranty. If you do plan on buying a used one make sure the seller has the original receipt and it is from an authorized NAD dealer. NAD will honor the warranty in that case.

BTW I had purchased a T773 in the past that had factory defects in it. It was long out of warranty but NAD replaced it FOR FREE with the T765 with free shipping, that bad boy is beast heavy. The T773 was their flagship model at the time (before the Master Series) and the T765 had more features and more power than the T773.

Just a thumbs up for NAD customer service and their policies.

Good to hear about the customer service. I thought I had found a good deal on a refurbished T765, but it turned out to be the first version that did not decode DTS-HD MA or Dolby TrueHD and was not MDC (and therefore not upgradeable).

I'm still looking because the MDC version would be sweet!

[hearingimpared]

Good to hear about the customer service. I thought I had found a good deal on a refurbished T765, but it turned out to be the first version that did not decode DTS-HD MA or Dolby TrueHD and was not MDC (and therefore not upgradeable).

I'm still looking because the MDC version would be sweet!

The search continues . . . but is well worth the wait.

[Demiurge]

If you're going HT/Games, the Pioneer Elite line is really the best bang for the buck. I listened to a lot of receivers before I finally made my decision on a new AVR, which was only a few weeks ago now.

Short of spending several thousand dollars, the Pioneer Elite line can't be beat and will rival many of the AVRs you'd spend much more for. They aren't the best for music (not bad at all, either), but plenty enough for me through the LSi line.

[cstmar01]

Also I'm not sure where you are located but check out even best buys Magnolia areas. Often they will have the Onkyo (or at least I thought they did) and the Pio recievers set up so you can listen to them and play with them a bit to get a feel. Normally also there will be the Denon. The last Magnolia at least had them set up so you could listen to them and play around but others I've been to were not like that or at least the guy didn't know if they could be pulled to listen to.

Also I've heard the NAD is pretty good as well, if I think its the model I read about, lots of headroom but they tend to be more on the expensive side.

[britay]

Get the SC-25

Yet another vote for the SC-25. Do all you guys have the 25 or do you just like spending my money? :D

[britay]

Also I'm not sure where you are located but check out even best buys Magnolia areas. Often they will have the Onkyo (or at least I thought they did) and the Pio recievers set up so you can listen to them and play with them a bit to get a feel. Normally also there will be the Denon. The last Magnolia at least had them set up so you could listen to them and play around but others I've been to were not like that or at least the guy didn't know if they could be pulled to listen to.

Also I've heard the NAD is pretty good as well, if I think its the model I read about, lots of headroom but they tend to be more on the expensive side.

That's where I went last weekend to listen to the Pioneers and Denons. I didn't listen to the Onkyo except to compare the Pioneers to the model of Onkyo I have - just for comparison. And the difference was striking, although there may have been other factors that weren't obvious to me (such as interconnects, how they blend with the speakers we were listening to, etc.).

[drselect]

britay I had a chance recently to listen to a Pioneer SC-25, Pioneer SC-27, Pioneer VSX-23TXH and an Onkyo TX-NR3007 at a Magnolia. IMHO the SC-25 and SC-27 stood out. I don't have the RTIs but did listen to different pairing of the AVRs with different speakers and still liked the sound of the SCs on all the speakers I listened to.
Shepard suggested (thanks by the way) that I check out http://www.valueelectronics.com/ and talk to Robert. I never got a chance to talk to Robert (didn't have a lot of technical questions just price) instead talked to Wendy who talked me into a SC-27 and a BDP and based on my experience so far I would also recommend giving them a call if you are looking at getting an Pio.

[britay]

britay I had a chance recently to listen to a Pioneer SC-25, Pioneer SC-27, Pioneer VSX-23TXH and an Onkyo TX-NR3007 at a Magnolia. IMHO the SC-25 and SC-27 stood out. I don't have the RTIs but did listen to different pairing of the AVRs with different speakers and still liked the sound of the SCs on all the speakers I listened to.
Shepard suggested (thanks by the way) that I check out http://www.valueelectronics.com/ and talk to Robert. I never got a chance to talk to Robert (didn't have a lot of technical questions just price) instead talked to Wendy who talked me into a SC-27 and a BDP and based on my experience so far I would also recommend giving them a call if you are looking at getting an Pio.

I see you're in AR and their website says "Elite receiver sales limited to a 250 mile radius of our store". I take it that wasn't a problem? I'm definitely not within 250 miles of NY.

[Sherardp]

britay I had a chance recently to listen to a Pioneer SC-25, Pioneer SC-27, Pioneer VSX-23TXH and an Onkyo TX-NR3007 at a Magnolia. IMHO the SC-25 and SC-27 stood out. I don't have the RTIs but did listen to different pairing of the AVRs with different speakers and still liked the sound of the SCs on all the speakers I listened to.
Shepard suggested (thanks by the way) that I check out http://www.valueelectronics.com/ and talk to Robert. I never got a chance to talk to Robert (didn't have a lot of technical questions just price) instead talked to Wendy who talked me into a SC-27 and a BDP and based on my experience so far I would also recommend giving them a call if you are looking at getting an Pio.

Passing on the good deals. Excellent. All I can say is +1.

Check out the Pioneer, they are excellent performers.

[drselect]

I wish I could say it had something to do with my southern charm but since I am not orignally from the south I figured that didn't come into play at all. Give them a call the only thing I would warn you about is you might walk away with more than what you planned on buying.

[Gulfstrings]

britay - Just a step or two ahead of you in putting a new system together in a room of similar dimensions. Already have made all choices up to adding a power amp, and still giving the current stuff time to 'change my mind.'

I did match an Onkyo SR707 with the RTi A7s, and agree with those above that the combination yields a warmer sound. Certainly warmer than I had previously with my Yamaha/RTi10s.

The 707 provides several HDMI inputs, has two sub outs (which I use) and is ready for the addition of a power amp. I paid $599 from One Call and feel I have a decent 'switchgear' at the ready if I bring in bigger power. At this point ... as things are burning in, still not sure it's necessary.

Dave

[AGUERRA]

To be clear....I'll give an example. I have an Onkyo 605 and an Onkyo 805 among other things. When I compare the 90 watt 605 with the 805 at similar volume levels...the 805 puts out more detail, tighter bass, better imaging and sound stage than its little brother. I don't need to blast the 805 to hear that difference.

When I add a 200 watt power amp to the Onkyo 805 and bypass its internal amps (130 watts/channel) everything I just said about the 605 and the 805 is even better with the power amp in charge at the same volume.

I do believe you should hear a difference between the two Pioneers at similar volumes..I've demoed both models.

However, your question is still relevant. Is the VSX23 good enough?

YES! In its price range it's one of the best and it has a lot of trickle down technology from its more expensive and bigger brothers....like Wolfsen DACs and anti-jitter digital tech, etc.

You'd be fine with that unit if you don't want to break the bank. And since it does have pre-outs..you could always buy a cheap power amp and increase the power to your speakers for a few hundred dollars on the used market.

cnh

i have both the 605 and 805 and boy does the 805 sing. man this thing is a beast and can be found at a good price used .

[britay]

Okay. I think I've got it narrowed down to the following:

Pio VSX-23
Pio SC-25
NAD T765

I'll hopefully get to listen to the NAD today, but there is only one dealer within 120 miles of my location. I think that after listening to the NAD I'll have it narrowed down to two - either the two Pioneers or the NAD and the SC-25.

From what I've read, the NAD should produce a better quality of sound than the two Pioneers, but the Pioneers have more "features". That started me thinking about the following scenario, and I wanted to run it by you guys to see if it made any sense. Can I get the VSX-23 now and then get a NAD amp later and get sound similar to what I'd have if I purchased the NAD T765? Or does it not work that way?

[cvpartridge]

I haven't heard anyone mention any Marantz products for the polk. I have a similar setup, Polk RTI8, CSI5, Monitor 40 (Rear), MFW-15 Sub, and just replaced an Onkyo 605 with a used Marantz SR-8001 for $400. The Marantz is much more balanced than the Onkyo. Not too mention much more powerful. I always thought the polks were way too harsh with the Onkyo. The Marantz tamed them down a bit. Accessories4Less.com has good prices on refurbished Marantz Receivers. You may want to consider these as well.

That being said, no mid-high end receiver will match the output that a good external amp can produce. Dynamics, SPL, and Sound quality are all improved with the addition of an amplifier. My vote, cheaper receiver with a nice used external amplifier.

[pietro944]

Thanks for the suggestion. This is one I'm definitely considering if I decide to spend $1000. With this receiver, the class D amp caught my attention. You've got a setup similar to mine, and the RC160 that I've currently got is similar to the SR607 (I believe), so I suspect your 601 was similar. Can you describe the difference in the sound you get from the SC-25 versus the 601?

hi britay........stumbled on the thread.....thought I might help.

I have the Pio Elite VSX-74TXVI in Retro Billet Silver..........It's beautiful ......7Ch.....140w per,Burr-Brown Dacs.

I used to have the ONK-805(ran hot,didn't like the sound)....the Elite blows it away.I have the RTi8's in the front and the M70's in the rear.

I didn't have much dough,at the time,so I did a ton of internet shopping.....this is what I did:

1.)I got the 74TX for $438(shipped)
2.)I paid $386 for the M70's-Polk refurbs on their Ebay auction site.(shipped).
3.)I paid $250(shipped) for the Zhalou 2.5 DAC

The Dac was the key to my whole system on the cheap.......it's wondrous.....all 2ch thru the Dac.....5.1 thru the Elite.Tons of power,terrific sound.

This was 2 years ago.......I just jumped on the Polk Refurb deal on the RTi8's for $459 and the 505sw for $250(Newegg).So now I have the RTi8's in the front and the M70's in the rear.

I live on SSI......never pay retail and get refurbs,if possible,never had a problem with Polk refurb speakers.

You can build a powerhouse system for about $1000+.........just research and take your time and have a plan...........A decent DAC was the key,for me.............hope this helps........Peter

[britay]

Peter, thanks for the response. I'm completely unfamiliar with the Zhalou 2.5 DAC, so I'll have to do some research on that.

I bought the SC-25 a week ago, but haven't updated the thread yet because I haven't been very happy with it and I'm not sure that I'm going to keep it. I think that music sounds better that the Onkyo I had before, but movie audio has been a big step backward so far. I've calibrated and recalibrated, but haven't found any combination of settings that I like yet.

I think the problem is with the acoustics in my living room, and I think that MCACC is having difficulty with the calibration because of it. When I look at the reverb chart (the before chart), the 63hz and 125hz bars are almost vertical, where the other frequencies flatten out at 30-50 milliseconds (63 and 125 are off the chart before 30ms). If I leave it at MCACC's setting of 30-50 ms, the sound is bright and the mid- and low-range frequencies are anemic. If I change it to 10-30 ms, the mid- and low-range is stronger, but it sounds a little muddy and flatter.

Another issue that I'm having is that I don't get as much detailed sound from the L/R surround channels as I did with my previous receiver. I don't even have a good idea why that is happening.

So, I'm still trying to find something that works because I mostly like the receiver. But if I can't find a solution to these two problems pretty soon, it will have to go back and I'll probably be looking at a refurbished NAD T765 or an Onkyo 807 or 1007.

[britay]

I don't feel right posting the bad without noting some of the things I really like about the SC-25, so here goes:

1) This thing really runs cool - very nice
2) Music is significantly better than what I had before
3) I love the ability to change the volume of each channel using the remote control while the movie or music is playing (with the Onkyo, I had to go three levels deep into the menu and pause the movie/music while doing it)
4) I like the amount of configurability that MCACC gives me
5) The clarity of the dialogue in TV shows and movies is very good

I'm sure there are things I'm missing, but this is what has stood out to me (so far).

[britay]

I think the problem is with the acoustics in my living room, and I think that MCACC is having difficulty with the calibration because of it. When I look at the reverb chart (the before chart), the 63hz and 125hz bars are almost vertical, where the other frequencies flatten out at 30-50 milliseconds (63 and 125 are off the chart before 30ms).

One thing that just occurred to me is that I've moved my front speakers closer to the corners of the living room (I think it was at the same time that I connected the SC-25), which may be contributing to the 63hz and 125hz reverb characteristics. I'll move them away from the corners tonight to see if it makes any difference. That might help with that issue.

[hearingimpared]

Speakers in corners are no no's. It will give you boomy bass amoung other nasties.

[britay]

hearingimpared:

Thanks. I was trying to put more distance between them to get better separation L to R. My L and R fronts were about 6 feet apart before I moved them, and the center channel speaker occupied 2 of those 6 feet. Hopefully getting them out of the corners will help the MCACC calibration.