LSiC upgrade - Caps and Resistors.

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10-09-2008, 06:37 PM
McLoki

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LSiC upgrade - Caps and Resistors.

Put in my order to see if my LSi's really do suck.... :p

Goals of the project are to make the vocals of a movie more pronounced and easier to understand while keeping the SPL balanced with the rest of my speakers. From what I have read about others LSi upgrades, both of these goals should be attainable. The placement of my LSiC limits my sound quality right now (it is to close to my ceiling), but I hope that this change will help the situation.

I put in an order at SonicCraft today. This is how it turned out....

PHP Code:

parts Location Price Manufacturer Description 18uf C1 $28.60 SoniCap Gen1 12uf C2 $20.45 SoniCap Gen1 18uf C3 $28.60 SoniCap Gen1 100uf C4 $18.76 Aeon 100uf C4 $18.76 Aeon 62uf C4 $12.98 Aeon Solder $6.00 Cardas Hookup Wire 14 $5.04 House Brand 18ga - Mil spec 1.5ohm R1 $3.85 Mills 12 watt 1.0ohm R2 $3.85 Mills 12 watt Sub Total $146.89 Discount $22.03 Shipping $9.95 Total $134.81

I asked about the 260uf cap in the LSiC and they suggested the Aeon caps mentioned above. They said they were very similar (made at the same plant) to the Solens - but came out to be about $30 cheaper.

As you can see my total came out to $134.81 and the parts should be here mid next week.

BTW - I got the Schematic from polk and for those interested in the differences in the crossover between the LSiC and LSi9 - here they are.....

Tweeter Circuit
LSi9 = 3ohm resistor in signal path, paralleled with a 1.0uf Cap.
LSiC = 1.5ohm resistor in signal path - No cap paralleled.

Upper Driver - No Difference

Lower Driver:
LSi9 = 9mH inductor with a DCR of 1.6ohms
LSiC = pair of 4mH inductors in series with a combined DCR of 2 ohms.

Here is a copy of the LSiC schematic if anyone needs it...

Michael
10-09-2008, 06:48 PM
zingo

Thanks for posting that and I'll be interested to hear your review when you finish them. I'll have to look into those Aeon caps.
10-09-2008, 08:11 PM
ben62670

Very interesting. I will have to look into those Aeon caps.
Ben
10-15-2008, 12:10 AM
McLoki

Parts came in tonight and the upgrade is now complete.... I will post pics later tomorrow after work. Flipping the board worked fine (I did have to tape the inductor just to be safe) and made for a pretty clean install.

It was my first crossover upgrade and there are certainly things that I could have done smoother. (Should have spent a little more time planning out parts placement before I started glueing things down.)

Speaker seems to be working fine after the upgrade with no real issues.....

I may have to reserve judgement on the upgrade until I can get to someones house who has an LSiC (Opus). To be honest, when I first hooked it up, it did not seem as loud as what I remembered and the voices seemed different. (hard to tell if it was better or worse, but it was definately different.

Worth $135? I don't know. Once I am able to compare to an exising LSiC (and have more than 15min of voices running through it) I am sure I will have a better formed opinion. It does seem to have better detail, but at this point, it could just be because I am paying more attention to it. Will report back in a few days when it has a few more hours under its belt (but will post pics tomorrow)....

Michael
10-15-2008, 01:39 AM
F1nut

It'll take at least 200 hours for the caps to burn in. Don't pass judgement until then.
10-15-2008, 01:49 AM
brettw22

Maybe not a good thing to have the schematic permanently attached? I don't know how proprietary that stuff is.....granted if they sent it to you I guess they could send it to anyone, but I don't know if that translates to being openly accessible like that.........just a thought..........
10-15-2008, 01:51 AM
ben62670

I am very surprised by your findings. Even just freshly done they were a night, and day difference right off the bench. The only difference is the Aeon caps. Did you listen to music through it?
Ben
10-15-2008, 01:54 AM
ben62670

Quote:

Originally Posted by brettw22

Maybe not a good thing to have the schematic permanently attached? I don't know how proprietary that stuff is.....granted if they sent it to you I guess they could send it to anyone, but I don't know if that translates to being openly accessible like that.........just a thought..........

Polk has posted the LSI 7, 9, and 15. Maybe one of the mods can remove it if inappropriate, or add it to the others if it is cool.
Ben
10-15-2008, 02:05 AM
brettw22

Was just thinking out loud....if they've posted others say la vie.......

I'm off to bed.........
10-15-2008, 08:55 AM
Face

Quote:

Originally Posted by brettw22

Maybe not a good thing to have the schematic permanently attached? I don't know how proprietary that stuff is.....granted if they sent it to you I guess they could send it to anyone, but I don't know if that translates to being openly accessible like that.........just a thought..........

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38755
10-15-2008, 11:47 AM
McLoki

I have sent the Crossover Schematic to Doro so he can update his listing of LSi Schematics. I also let him know that I had posted it here. Either way - it is now out of my control as I cannot edit my original post even if I wanted to. (Doro can though and will if needed)

I do not have a lot of time listening (about an hour) but here are my thoughts and observations (or at least a better explanation of them).....

The sound was much better the end of the hour than it was at the beginning. At least some of the issue I was experiencing was due to the nature of a center channel. (It is mainly voices, not music, which plays through it - and I only have one of them so there is no good way to compare back and forth)

Music does sound fantastic played through it, but I still don’t have a good basis to compare since I never really listed to music though it before the update. I wish I had an additional LSiC to compare to but I don’t.

The pitch of voices changed slightly (more bass now) and I was not really sure if it was better or not (since I have no idea what their voice sounds like in real life). I got used to it pretty quickly though. It was not enough to be considered better or worse – just different.

I was initially disappointed that it did not seem louder than before. It turns out this was the wrong way of looking at it. It is much more detailed than it was before and is also much clearer. While I can clearly understand everything at my normal listening levels (and even about 5 db or so lower than that) I find myself listening at my normal levels just for the increased detail that is present. It is a similar effect to what happened when I added the amp to my system (from a detail perspective) but much more so.

My NAD pre/pro does have a setting that sends stereo signals to the center channel and surrounds (for background music) and that is what I used to test the music with my system and the center channel sounded much better than my LSi7’s. I don’t use this mode often though so I don’t know if the LSiC was always better or not.

I definitely think some additional time with the system is needed and once it gets at least 10 or 20 hours through it should start getting a decent idea for how it’s going.
10-15-2008, 08:52 PM
McLoki

5 Attachment(s)

Ok - here are the pics I promised last night....

Pic one was of the AEON caps I purchased. Like I said before, they are supposed to be a Solen clone (made on the same line by the same parent company) but are 250volt rather than 400volt the solens would be. They were really large caps, thats for sure totaling 262uf.

Pic two was how I connected the AEON caps together. I used a 20" lead wire and ended up needing all of it. The caps are velcro'd down (for easy removal if needed) behind the left woofer (as seen from the front). There was not room to put them on the right side at all. In the last pictures you see the white wire running running out of the hole in the back of the speaker to the Crossover board - those wires are going to this cap. There was one "Oh ****" moment when I had everything connected together with the lead wires and it would not fit through the crossover hole. Ended up not really mattering as I had to remove the left woofer to fit it on that side anyway. (the ports run behind the tweeter almost dividing the enclosure in half) It did fit through the speaker hole just fine, but not with a ton of extra room.

Pic three is how I ended up taping the inductors and wires so I could flip the crossover board over. It worked just fine, but I did have to bend the wire ends back a bit. (the tape was more for peace of mind than anything) I used the same wires that were already there and just surface mounted them rather than run them through from the other side.

Pic four is a side view of the board ready to be remounted into the speaker. Due to tolerace on the back cap - I was only able to attach 3 of the 4 screws to the crossover. (I may have thought of a way around that, but have not repulled the crosssover to put in the fourth screw yet)

Pic five is a top view of the same shot. The middle cap is resting against the tweeter inductor. If I would have thought things out a little better, I would have put both 18's very close on each side of the inductor and the 12uf resting between them on top. Oh well - live and learn. There is a nice glob of hot glue the 12uf cap is resting in now so it is staying where it is at.

Thats what I have - what do you all think for my first crossover upgrade ever and first soldering job since high school?

Michael
10-15-2008, 09:39 PM
ben62670

Thanks for the pics. I will do the next LSI's with the boards flipped. As you mentioned on the phone I think I will use some spacers, and longer screws. I have to try those Aeon caps. I would like to compare them to the Dayton's.
Ben
10-16-2008, 01:56 AM
Polksaladanni

Stick with the Daytons Ben. They are about as nuetral as they get & No Grit.
10-16-2008, 04:24 AM
ben62670

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polksaladanni

Stick with the Daytons Ben. They are about as nuetral as they get & No Grit.

I agree, but one thing I have learned in the last two years here is there are brand wagon types(I did the same) who recommend without trying; so I feel compelled to try the new kid on the the block:) So far I have to say the Dayton's far exceeded my expectations for caps in their price range, but I am semi reluctant to recommend them over the sonicaps because myself, and many others may feel "am I missing something by going a step further?".
Thanks Paul
Ben
10-16-2008, 09:29 AM
heiney9

Nice work Michael!!! Wish I would have done this upgrade when I still had my Lsi 9's. I still would have sold them to fund my SDA's, but perhaps I could have gotten rid of the prominent mid-bass hump.

If I get LSi 7's or 9's again I will be doing this mod/upgrade :).

Once I get time I am swapping out the Solen for a Clarity cap on the high pass of my 5b's.

H9
10-16-2008, 10:11 AM
mmadden28

Quote:

Originally Posted by heiney9

Nice work Michael!!! Wish I would have done this upgrade .... but perhaps I could have gotten rid of the prominent mid-bass hump.
...
H9

What song can be played to reproduce the Mid Bass hump you're referring to? I'll see if I can reproduce it on my LSi9 upgrade (before and after).
10-17-2008, 04:32 PM
Pepi28

Does it make a difference on the type of solder to use? I am going to do these mods to my entire LSi system and I purchased SILVER solder last night from home depot.
10-17-2008, 04:34 PM
ben62670

For cheap local solder that is easy to work with I really like the Rat Shack Silver Bearing solder on a spool. The stuff in a tube is junk! It's about $6
Ben
10-17-2008, 04:51 PM
Pepi28

I only paid about $5 for the silver stuff at the depot. Didn't come in a tube either. It came packaged wrapped around a tube of FLUX. The package said this solder was great for wiring up circuit boards and the like.
10-17-2008, 04:56 PM
McLoki

I purchased cardas solder from SonicCraft when I made my order. 24' for about $6.00. Seemed expensive, but I think I will be able to do all my LSiC as well as my 15's (and maybe my 7's) with it. (it goes a really long way)
10-17-2008, 04:56 PM
ben62670

Try it on an old computer board or any other circuit board. It's good practice, and will let you know if you like it. I really recommend flux core. The use of a separate flux can be messy, and much harder to work with.
Ben
10-17-2008, 05:54 PM
Pepi28

The price of solder does not bother me. I will pay more for better stuff. I just haven't done any soldering in a very long time. So all the diff. types is a bit confusing. I think I am going to call Sonic Craft now and order what I need.
11-01-2008, 07:12 PM
Pepi28

Here is the suggestion the guy from Sonic Craft emailed me about my LSi15 mod. This is the exact email he sent.

My "budget" recommendations:

-Replace C1 with a Sonicap G1 18uF/200VDC (for custom cap values, price
the next larger value) and bypass (connect in parallel) with a Sonicap
G2 0.1uF/400VDC.
-Replace C2 with a Sonicap G1 12uF/200VDC and bypass (connect in
parallel) with a Sonicap G2 0.1uF/400VDC.
-Replace C3 with a Sonicap G1 30uF/200VDC paralleled with a Aeon 100uF
($18.76 each) and bypassed (connect in parallel) with a Sonicap G2
0.1uF/400VDC. The Aeon is identical to a Solen, but we do not have them
on our website.
-Replace C4 with a Sonicap G1 10uF/200VDC.
-Replace C1 with a Sonicap G1 18uF/200VDC (for custom cap values, price
the next larger value) and bypass (connect in parallel) with a Sonicap
G2 0.1uF/400VDC.
-Replace C5 with a Sonicap G1 5uF/200VDC (for custom cap values, price
the next larger value) paralleled with a Aeon 33uF ($7.74 each).
-Replace C6 with a Aeon 33uF ($7.74 each) paralleled with a Aeon 100uF
($18.76 each).
-Replace R1-R4 with the same value in the Mills MRA-12 (12 watt).
*I would also consider using Cardas Quad-Eutectic solder.

All the prices on our site are current. You may deduct 15% if you make
your purchase today or tomorrow (Oct. Sale).

http://www.soniccraft.com/sonicaps.htm

http://www.soniccraft.com/sonicap_gen_2.htm

http://www.soniccraft.com/mills_resistors.htm

http://www.soniccraft.com/products/c...der/cardas.htm

http://www.soniccraft.com/orders.htm

Best regards,
Jeff

Does anyone know what he meant by bypassing some of the caps?
11-01-2008, 07:25 PM
Face

I don't know if I would use bypass caps, and I'm not a fan of Solen. Bypass caps can create artifacts and don't always sound natural. And Solen caps in my experience don't sound totally tonally correct either, they made certain vocals sound nasal, but it could have been because I used them in the high pass of a 2 way speaker.

I'm sure you'll have a few different opinions on that setup, but you should start your own thread though.
11-01-2008, 08:49 PM
ben62670

Quote:

Originally Posted by Face

I don't know if I would use bypass caps, and I'm not a fan of Solen. Bypass caps can create artifacts and don't always sound natural. And Solen caps in my experience don't sound totally tonally correct either, they made certain vocals sound nasal, but it could have been because I used them in the high pass of a 2 way speaker.

I'm sure you'll have a few different opinions on that setup, but you should start your own thread though.

Exactly what he said. I have some Solen's here I won't even give away. The Aeon I have not had any experience with, and from experience I would suggest Dayton's. As for solder you can get it locally from Rat shack pretty cheap. Get the Silver solder on a spool. It is easy to work with, and makes real nice joints. The stuff in a tube sucks.
Ben
11-01-2008, 09:48 PM
dracoskeeper

When you say "don't use bypass caps" do you mean to install a jumper on the board where they originally were?
11-01-2008, 11:34 PM
F1nut

I agree with Face, forget the bypass caps and forget the Solens. Just leave the holes empty.
11-01-2008, 11:37 PM
ben62670

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1nut

I agree with Face, forget the bypass caps and forget the Solens. Just leave the holes empty.

Yep.
11-07-2008, 03:04 PM
shadowofnight

Quote:

Originally Posted by ben62670

Exactly what he said. I have some Solen's here I won't even give away. The Aeon I have not had any experience with, and from experience I would suggest Dayton's. As for solder you can get it locally from Rat shack pretty cheap. Get the Silver solder on a spool. It is easy to work with, and makes real nice joints. The stuff in a tube sucks.
Ben

I have used the Aeon caps in both new builds and redoing my SRS's....worked out well...still have a bunch leftover as a matter of fact. Used this solder..... http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=370-038

http://www.parts-express.com/images/.../370-038_L.jpg

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/atta...7&d=1226083286

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