LSi7 Crossover Upgrade - SoniCaps and Mills

Well, SonicCraft finally had another sale on (20% this time - Thanks go out to Face for the heads up) so I ordered the parts for my LSi7 upgrade. I still need to do my LSi15's, but am still unsure exactly how I want to tackle that one, so LSi7's it is....

Everything was ordered from SonicCraft using their gen1 caps and mills resistors. (since I had good luck with them in my LSiC upgrade)

Anyway - Here is my total....

PHP Code:

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parts    Location    Price    Manufacturer    Description    Quantity
                    
12uf      C1        $20.45    SoniCap           Gen1         2
12uf      C2        $20.45    SoniCap           Gen1         2
16.5uf    C3        $25.40    SoniCap           Gen1         2
                    
2.5ohm    R1         $3.85      Mills          12 watt       2
0.5ohm    R2         $3.85      Mills          12 watt       2
                    
    Sub Total    $148.00            
    Discount      $29.60            
    Shipping       $9.95            
    Total        $128.35 


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They said it should ship Monday (since I asked for the custom Value of 16.5) and I will post more when I get them in.

Can't wait.

Michael

No problem, looking forward to your impressions.

Cool your able to get around to them. The LsiC came out really nice.

I really have high expectations for this one. The LSi7 has the simplest crossover in the LSi line and due to all fairly low values - I will be able to replace all the caps with the higher quality Sonicaps...

With this change, I will have modded rear speakers and center channel. The channels - other than the sub - that are most often boosted in many home theater setups.

Another myth I hope to break is that rear channel speakers are somehow "not worthy" of high quality sound.

By this time next week, we should be close to getting an idea...

Michael

Please post pics, tips etc. I have a pair of LSi7's I got for $150.00 so I have some $ for the mod. Thanks in advance.

How are you making out with the crossover upgrade? I can't wait to see what you say about the sound difference.

Parts were ordered on Friday. Due to the custom value I asked for - (the 16.5uf) it is not going to ship out until Monday. (still very good in my opinion)

Parts should be here late next week and I plan to do the upgrade next weeend. The upgrade should go pretty quickly as there are not really huge remote caps to work with - but it will take a little longer as I plan to compare modded to unmodded once one gets completed.

I am really looking forward to it and anxious to get started.

Michael

Good luck with it! I cannot wait for the results.

Micheal
Are you familar with Fluke Multimeters ? I picked up a 8060A for $20.00 yesterday.It's my first multimeter.

Got the tracking info today - Parts should be here Wednesday. (I will be busy Wednesday night, but may be able to get one speaker done thursday and play with them (with only one speaker done) for a few days to compare them...

Michael

Well - package is still on track to arrive today. I did want to relay something interesting that happened last night with my center though (it was the first time I really noticed this happening).

Was watching the movie Bolt with the family at a pretty low level (-25 to -30) everything in the center channel was plenty loud and clear. As sounds expanded from the center channel to the fronts - I could clearly hear things getting more garbled and muddy sounding. I am unsure if it was the movie (maybe there were more center to front speaker pans than normal) or the lower volume, but it was really annoying.

The surrounds will be nice to have done, but I don't think I will be waiting as long as I thought to get the fronts completed.

on a side note, the capacitor upgrade definately lets you enjoy the movie with full (increased actually) clarity 5-6db lower than you typically would listen to it. That may be an important fact to keep in mind for apartment and condo dwellers....

Michael

Due to a power surge through my cable line, my modem is down. (surfing via phone right now).

Anyway, speaker one is done. I took lots of pics and will upload them as soon as I get a connection.

As much as I like sonicaps when broken in, I just do not see alot of change when first installed. I only have about 5 min. on the speaker (playing one stock, one modified) modded is more clear, but not really much louder.
I will post more tomorrow after I get more time on them. I will do the other speaker this weekend. I will try to get some time on the caps before I draw to many conclusions though.

Looking foward to your completed project and pics...I'm considering a pair of 7's for my small listening room...

Well, wanted to give a little more clarification on last nights "demo" with the modded LSi7 now that I have a keyboard and am not trying to type a message on a phone..... :rolleyes:

Anyway - like I said, I did one crossover - total time was about 3 hours with pictures, desoldering, deciding on placement, fitting parts, feeding animals and putting kids to bed... I expect the other one to take me 1.5 - 2 hours just because I am slow and know I will screw something up if I get in a hurry. I am sure someone who is better and more sure with soldering would be able to pound it out in an hour or less.

Their was a decent amount of glue on all the parts and it was stiff, but not rock hard like I have heard some of the other LSi's have. It kind of had the consistancy of aged tree sap. (I was able to cut it with multiple swipes of a razor - Just go slow)

All the parts except the iron-core inductor are on the bottom of the board (twords the terminal cup) I ended up putting the all the parts on that side of the board (where they started) with the caps on end like little towers(extension wire from the top of the cap back to the board). I just flipped the board the same way i did with the LSiC. the iron core inductor does not touch anything when put on the bottom and it worked out really well. You do have to solder the connection wires to the trace side of the board (so they are not really through hole any more) but it did not present a problem. There are no clearance issues with anything on the crossover being to tall due to the LSi7 speaker design, I did not - but plan to tonight - add some zip ties to the caps so the solder joints do not have to carry the caps weight in the speaker. I did hot glue the three caps to each other so there is a little more support than you would think. (that will make more sense when I post the pics - hopefully later tonight)

Regarding the sound - When I first did my LSiC, I was a little underwhelmed with the change but the sound just kept improving the more time I listened to it. Based on that history and the fact that this time I at least had another speaker to compare it to - it was easier to form some initial impressions. Take this as a first impression only - the speakers were sitting on top of my LSi15's and I just stuck my head in front of one then the other to hear if there was any difference. Total time of this impression was only about 3-5min as my wife was trying to watch TV and not happy about me standing in front of it with my head in front of a speaker.... I was also bummed to find out my NAD pre/pro does not have a balance control so I could not really test fading the sound from one speaker to the other.

So to the nitty gritty - what did I hear. I was playing a Michael Buble CD (No wisecracks - it was in the player) anyway - I hooked up both 7's as my front speakers full range - stereo only and began listening. I stood back at first and listened for any imaging or volume differences. I did not notice any. The speakers sounded pretty similar in volume and the image was between the speakers with placement in the image where I expected to hear things.

Since I could not find a balance control on my Pre-Pro (guess I never looked for one before) I just stuck my head in front of one speaker then the other while playing the CD to see if I could hear any differences. I have heard this CD a number of times and always thought it sounded pretty good.

Through the unmodded speaker - everything sounded like I expected it to and remembered it -

through the modded speaker everything sounded more clear and distinct. There was no background noise at all, just the voice and instruments playing.

back to the unmodded - now everything sounds like it has an electronic haze around it. Like the voice and instruments have been eletronically generated and processed. There is a definate edge of distortion around everything that I did not notice until it was gone. All the sounds are artificial in this speaker and I can't believe I did not hear it before.

back to the modded speaker everything is clear and lifelike sounding. A subtle but huge improvement.


This exchange went back and forth for a few min. Total time on the caps was (and still is) under 5 min. From the LSiC project I know the sonicaps changed quite a bit for 20-30hours and then the changes slowed a lot but did continue over the next 100+ hours. It is to early to draw any conclusions from this, but so far I am happy with the upgrade. I will try to get a little more time in front of each speaker comparing them before I mod the other crossover. I will post more impressions as I get them.

Michael

Thanks for the great post,"sounds" promising...I will keep an eye out for your "burned in" impressions.

Ok - here is the photo show and upgrade description as promised....

To start - disconnect your speaker and bring it over to an easy work area. (I used the kitchen bar) I set a towel down and put the speaker on that so it would not get scratched. Tools I ended up using were these....

Wire cutters
needle nose pliers
soldering iron
Cardas silver solder (purchased from Sonicraft when I did my LSiC upgrade)
solder wick. (a desoldering bulb would also be helpful, but I do not have one)
screwdrivers
razor blade (used to cut the parts off the crossover)
Heat shrink tubing
hot glue gun (to fuze caps together or to board)
long Zip ties (to help couple the caps to the board so the solder joints are not carrying the weight of the caps)


Set the speaker on the towel (or work surface) and take the 4 screws out of the terminal cup on the back where you plug the speaker wire into. It will come off with a slight pull. (it is connected via wires to the speakers still in the LSi7 so don't expect it to come off very far.) If you lay it down behind the speaker it will look like this...
http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/o...soverstart.jpg

The reason it looks almost empty is beacause all the parts are on the other side. (the bottom side) The first thing I do is unscrew the 4 screws holding the board to the stand-offs and remove the solder from the four wires holding it to the board. (remove solder at the crossover, not on the terminal) You will end up with the terminal cup looking like this...
http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/o...lcup-empty.jpg

Then you can flip over the crossover and see the parts you are going to replace. They look like this....
http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/o...back-stock.jpg

The new parts are larger than the old - so you cannot place them in exactly the same place the old parts were.... When you first look at it, it seems like there is no way, but with a little creativity - you can come up with something. Here is a parts comparison of new to old...

http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/o...ew-oldcaps.jpg
http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/o...wtooldcaps.jpg

The board is well labled so there is no problem removing all the parts and knowing where the new ones need to go. Time to clear the board of the parts you are replacing. I find the easiest way to do this is to:

• -- Grab a lead with a pair of needlenose pliers (small needle nose vice grips would actually work a little better for this).
• -- Melt the solder on the other side of the board from the lead you are holding.
• -- Pull the leg out of the melted solder.
• -- Use solder wick to remove the excess solder left on the board - leaving a nice hole.
• -- Repeat for each leg of each part you are replacing.

Once this is done - you would think the parts would just fall off the board. Not so says polk while holding a large glue gun. The parts are glued down with glue that is very thick (almost solid) and gooey - like thick sap that has set for a long time. It can be cut with a razor blade, but takes quite a few swipes and the blade dulls quickly. Cut one side of the part from the board, tilt the part up on its edge that is still glued down (lean it over actually), and cut the other side. Go slow and it is not alot of problem. Be careful though because the razor slips easily and it would be pretty easy to cut yourself with force put on the razor. When the parts are cut off, the board looks something like this....
http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/o...ncrossover.jpg

I put my hand in through the hole the crossover board goes into to see how much room I have. It appears that I have alot and there is no real height requirements I have to hold to when placing the parts. I cannot hang over the board though as the board will not fit back through the hole if I hang parts over at all. Long story short - build up, not out.

I decided by moving the .5watt resistor more to the edge of the board, I could put the caps on end and fit them all. I put both resistors in place and bent the wires so they would stay there. No soldering yet. When putting the caps on end like this, they cover some of the holes that I need though - also the wire lead on the top of the cap is not long enough to reach the crossover board.

To get around this issue, I used an extension wire from the board to the top of the cap. (one per cap) Set the caps in place, decide what wires need to go where and solder the wires in place (not the caps yet, just the extension wires) I then covered where the wire meets the board with some electrical tape just to be safe. Make sure you do not cover any holes you will need later though) Then place the caps and after you verify that they are not covering any holes you need - flip the board and ensure there are wires coming through all the parts holes where they should be. (you did not foget one)

Solder the extension wires to the top of the correct cap. (you may need to cut the leads some and I used a little heat shrink tubing to cover the solder joint

I pressed the caps together at this point and hot glued them together. Not alot, just a bead between each cap to help hold them together. (this is with the leads already through the holes on the crossover board and they are pretty much where I want them to end up) Once done, flip the board and solder the caps and resistors in place. This is what mine looked like at this point....
http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/o...ountedleft.jpg


Obviously, the board will not fit back on the terminal cup with the parts facing down anymore, so you have to surface mount the leads onto the trace (or copper) side of the board. Expose a little extra wire from the leads coming off the terminal cup (maybe 1/4" more or so).

The board is marked Hin (think of high - these are the top row of wires connecting to the top wire nuts) and Lin (think of low - these are the bottom row of wires connecting to the bottom wire nuts). you will have to cross the wires (so the red wire goes to the Hin or Lin + side and the black wire goes to the Hin or Lin - side) and push them through the holes. Back the wire out some (so you can still feel the wire on the other side of the board, but there is about 1/8"-1/4" of wire exposed on the copper side - the insulation cannot be against the crossover board). Now just solder the wire in place. Take your time and the solder should wick almost all the way up to the insulation on the wire and will make a tight hold. Give the wire a slight tug to make sure it is secure before going on to the next one.

Where the wires connect to the terminal cups - I bent the bottom row slightly to keep them away from the inductor that is now right above it. It was not required, but just done for peace of mind. Screw the crossover back on to the terminal cup and it should look like this...
http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/o...eadytogoin.jpg

I did not take a picture of this, but at this point I wrapped two large zip ties around the crossover board and Sonicaps (the ones on each end). I did not apply a ton of force, but I made sure they were snug and the zip ties would hold the caps in place, not the solder joints....

Now just set the speaker on its face, set the crossover cup into the speaker (make sure the terminal cup is right side up) and screw it down.

You are done - plug it in and see what you think.....

Good luck,

Micheal

Very nice.
As you know give it time. I like the way you mounted those caps:)

Nice documentation, Michael.

Jay

Great job and documentation...you make it look and sound sooo easy...although I know for myself this little task would be daunting.

Well, I ran the speaker for about 30 hours and it ended up about the same as my initial impression. It was no louder, but was much more clear. One additional thing that started to come through was increased bass response. The entire speaker seemed more balanced from bottom to top.

I modded the other speaker, waxed both of them - and put them back up. I loaned my SPL meter out to a friend of mine. While I assume everything is still in correct balance - I will want to verify it.

Since they are rear channels, it will take awhile to get back in balance, so it will be a few months before I really start getting the full benefit of the increased clarity in the rear channels. I will keep updating this thread as new revelations come about.

When push comes to shove - did this upgrade meet my expectations - I have to say no. I am guessing at least in part because it was a more simple crossover so all the caps in the signal path were of higher quality design. I really thought with having the other LSi7 to compare to stock - I would be bowled over with the change. Instead, what I got was an LSi7 - but better.

That brings me to the next question - Is the upgrade worth the money invested - yes, absolutely. If you don't like the LSi7 before the upgrade, you probably won't like it after, but if you DO already like it - you will get much more for your money than the upgrade cost.

Michael

As a quick update - the speakers are breaking in well and I am really starting to enjoy the sound of them.

One thing I will say about SoniCaps - When still new, they almost give me a "I was waiting for that??" type feeling, but once they get some time on them, man do they sound great.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by McLoki

As a quick update - the speakers are breaking in well and I am really starting to enjoy the sound of them.

One thing I will say about SoniCaps - When still new, they almost give me a "I was waiting for that??" type feeling, but once they get some time on them, man do they sound great.

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I agree with that statement....the more time they get on them the better they sound.

Nice Review and Great Job on the LSi7s' XO upgrade!

I;ve said it before, I'll say it again nice work Michael. If they start to sound anything like your center channel you should be very happy.

Sonicaps take awhile to fully break-in and the rewards are great when they finally "get there".

H9

Biggest change besides clarity is the increase in the amount of bass present in the speaker....

Mine sonicaps took over 400 hours to break in.

Well...the garantee on my JBL-s312 II is up.So...I decided to open them up.And ...you know what I found ????



1. 99 cents resistors. Are you kidding me????

2. Electrolitic capacitors ... Are you serious???

3. Iron core inductors . No way !!!! No even air core inductors on the woofer ????

4. Cheap bypass capacitors. Go figure.

5. Cheap conector cables. is a must no, no.

I decided to upgrade all the parts and after i did it....they did not sound the same.

I chage all the components with better ones...that's all i did. The only thing that is not the same are the bypass capacitor that were next to the electrolitics caps. hum....Thats the only thing i can think of.Other than that I am lost man.

Do you believe is nessesary to apply the bypass caps on my crossovers to see them playing back again? They actually sound laid back ..and I have to rise up the volume to see them play at the same volume like they use to do before.


I am kind of dessapointed at JBL. One thing for sure. These JBL s312 II can reproduce some serious ,sound, and 3 dimensional image. I have not idea how these guys did to achieve such a great sound with such crappy components. very admirable.

But.............

I payed $ 950 when these babies came out at J&R.

Anyway....



I want to give these speakers the Quality in crossovers they deserve.I personally feel that the guys in JBL own me that after analysing my crossovers networks.(Dirty cheap).



I need a list of parts for my upgrade. I willl not change any of the values on my crossovers networks because i know that if i do so...i will also alter their sound signature.. I juts need a guidance in what components should i use for my upgrade.

All the caps on my crossovers are electrolitics and bypassed with littles blue polypropylene caps.



Please..... if you can not help me I know that you may know the right person who can help me.

I already got in touch with skiing ninja site.They willing to work on my upgrade.


Hum...maybe i did something wrong on my upgrade???

Thanks in advance....

sincerely

Gio

Quote:

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Originally Posted by McLoki

Well, SonicCraft finally had another sale on (20% this time - Thanks go out to Face for the heads up) so I ordered the parts for my LSi7 upgrade. I still need to do my LSi15's, but am still unsure exactly how I want to tackle that one, so LSi7's it is....

Everything was ordered from SonicCraft using their gen1 caps and mills resistors. (since I had good luck with them in my LSiC upgrade)

Anyway - Here is my total....

PHP Code:

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parts    Location    Price    Manufacturer    Description    Quantity
                    
12uf      C1        $20.45    SoniCap           Gen1         2
12uf      C2        $20.45    SoniCap           Gen1         2
16.5uf    C3        $25.40    SoniCap           Gen1         2
                    
2.5ohm    R1         $3.85      Mills          12 watt       2
0.5ohm    R2         $3.85      Mills          12 watt       2
                    
    Sub Total    $148.00            
    Discount      $29.60            
    Shipping       $9.95            
    Total        $128.35 


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They said it should ship Monday (since I asked for the custom Value of 16.5) and I will post more when I get them in.

Can't wait.

Michael

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Bumping this as I will be trying to do it to my LSi7 rears very soon...

What kind of wire did you use to extend from the caps back to the board? Did you think about replacing the wire from the binding posts to the board while you were at it? WHat about replacing the binding posts with something like Eichmann Cable Pods?

nice job.:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by praedet

Bumping this as I will be trying to do it to my LSi7 rears very soon...

What kind of wire did you use to extend from the caps back to the board? Did you think about replacing the wire from the binding posts to the board while you were at it? WHat about replacing the binding posts with something like Eichmann Cable Pods?

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The wire I used to extend from the caps to the board was "House Brand 18ga - Mil spec" hookup wire that i purchased from SonicCraft when I did my LSiC conversion. (I got about 14' of it for $5) It appears to be silver coated copper, but I could be mistaken on that. Anyway - it worked out just fine. (BTW - in the pics, I have red heat shrink around the connection point of the wire and caps. I just have not shrunk it yet in the pic... :) )

The wire from the binding post to the board could be replaced, but it is not that long and I would have to make the hole larger in the board to fit a larger guage through it. I thought about doing it so I could have the wire wrap around the board (so I would not have to surface mount it) but in the end, did not think it would be worth the trouble. I would guess the stock wire is 16 or 18 guage.

The LSi binding posts seem to work fine for my application and I wanted to keep a stock outside appearance. (well, ok - except the fact they are gloss black :p) Anyway - if you were unhappy with the stock binding posts or just like others better, this would be an excellent time to switch them.

All in all, I am very happy with the upgrades i have done and am really looking forward to doing the crossovers in my LSi15's.