Ortofon 2M Red Cartridge

[Huck344]

So, over the last couple of months, I have gotten back into Vinyl. My wife bought me a Audio Technica AT-LP120 TT which is basically a knock off of the Technics SL-1200.

Overall, I thought it sounded ok (can't expect much for a $200 TT). I got a clamp for it and it definitely improved the sound. I decided to change out the cartridge as everything I've read about the turntable indicates that the cartridge that it came with was more geared towards DJing (required 3.5g of down force). After much research, I purchased an Ortofon 2M Red cartridge and protractor from LP Gear. I got it yesterday and installed it. My first impression is that music and bass sound much better than the stock turntable. But voices sound hollow. My wife described the sound of voices as if they were in a tunnel. I think it would be more like the music was in front of the singers.

Anyway, did I install this incorrectly? Is there something I can do to make it better? Do cartridges need break in time? I appreciate all help, but please DO NOT recommend that I purchase a more expensive cartridge. I know many of you are big fans of the Denon DL-160. I really don't want to spend $180 on a cartridge for a turntable that cost $200.

One other thing, the TT is now MUCH more sensitive to footfalls than with the previous cartridge. I don't know if that has something to do with 1.8g (new cartrdige) vs. 3.5g.

Eric. . .

[Fongolio]

Eric, yes cartridges need a break in period. Typically 50 to 100 hours. As for the hollownes, I'm not sure. Sounds a little weird. What are you using for a pre-amp. Some have different load settings for MM cartridges. As for the sensitivity that's probably just the much lower tracking setting making it overly sensitive. Some isolation may be required. The Ortofon 2M's are supposed to be quite good cartridges. Can you swap it for another red from LP Gear. Or perhaps phone them and tell them the issue. It may just be that it needs a break in period and the vocals will move forward more. It's not much but I hope I helped a little.

Kelvin

[Huck344]

Kelvin, thanks for your response. I re-calibrated everything this evening. Sound is a bit better, but still a bit muffled. i sent LP Gear an email, but am waiting to hear back from them. They don't have their phone number listed on their website.

I connect the unit to my phono input on my Onkyo TX-SR803, so I'm not using a pre amp. The TT does have a built in pre-amp that I can turn on and connect to a line in.

Anyway, it's a bit better. Something I do notice is that it definitely likes records in good condition. Anything that is dirty, etc. and it sounds like crap. I guess it's not a very forgiving cartridge!

[jrgoswick]

Make sure the cartridge is a moving magnet(MM), and not a moving coil(MC). My Grado is an MC and while it sounds ok(I was shocked, though it would make the angels come down from heaven kind of deal), my Azden sounds MUCH better due to the fact that the output impedance is closer matched to the input impedance of the AVR. Other option(and I'm debating it) is to build a Wien bridge pre/selector for my MC cartridges.

[billbillw]

Check to see that you have the right tracking angle and have everything aligned properly. Headshell should be parallel to the vinyl when playing. If its angled up or down, it might have bad results like you are saying. Double check the wiring leads too because having something out of phase might cause a problem like that also.

[Huck344]

Thanks for the advice guys. It is indeed a MM cartridge. I didn't have a chance to mess with it last night. But, will probably try and tweak it some more tonight. LP Gear already issued me a RMA, but I told them I wanted to tweak it a bit more. Does the headshell need to be parallel or does the tone arm? The reason why I ask is that I have the tone arm parallel (less than 1mm off), but the headshell does angle down a bit. I don't think I can lower the tone arm any more to flatten the angle of the headshell.

[billbillw]

The mounting surface of the head shell (where the cartridge fits flush) should pretty much be parallel. This usually occurs when the tonearm is parallel. Of course, this will vary slightly when different thicknesses of vinyl. Just try to set it when you have a record that is average thickness.

EDIT: Wait, I am assuming that your TT has adjustable VTA (ie: tonearm height) like the SL-1200mk2, but I can't seem to verify this.

If you don't have a VTA adjustment for tonearm height, then don't worry about it. If the alignment is good, then you should be fine.

Now, alignment: Do you have the cartridge mounted perfectly in line with the center line of the head shell? Some people when they are new, do not fully understand the process of aligning a cartridge. They will angle the cartridge to get it to meet the null points. This is wrong. The cartridge should stay at 0 degrees angle with respect to the headshell and it should be moved forward or back in the headshell until you can match both null points.

[hearingimpared]

Huck after doing all of the above, you need to know that most cartridges take 35 hours for the cantilever to loosen up and will start sounding good i.e., the hollow sound diminishes. At 70 hours it should be right on in most cases some take longer depending on the manufacturer. Mine took about 120 hrs before I could realize its full potential.

Good luck!

[Huck344]

Thanks Joe and Bill. Does it really improve that much?

[danger boy]

i'm thinking the hollow sound is coming from something else... i have installed new carts (as many of you have as well) and I don't remember a hollowness to the point of that Huck344 describes. something ain't right.

is it the same on all albums? add a little more weight to the arm. my cart actually sounds better with a bit more weight on it.. still within the recommendations.. but if I go to light on the arm, i lose to much mids and bass. so play around with the gram weight.

other than that.. be sure the stylus is seated properly on the cartridge.

[hearingimpared]

Thanks Joe and Bill. Does it really improve that much?

Yes, yes, & yes! Hard to believe but when it is fully broken in you will swear you are listening to a different cartridge.:)

[billbillw]

Thanks Joe and Bill. Does it really improve that much?

In my experience, things do improve with break-in, but the change is subtle. Reduced harshess, fuller bass, more open mid-range, etc.

It should not sound like voices are in a tunnel no matter what. (make sure you see my edits in my previous post)

[erniejade]

"I connect the unit to my phono input on my Onkyo TX-SR803, so I'm not using a pre amp. The TT does have a built in pre-amp that I can turn on and connect to a line in."


Have you tried using the built in preamp to a line in instead of the onkyo's phono pre? If so, was there a sound difference?

[hearingimpared]

i'm thinking the hollow sound is coming from something else... i have installed new carts (as many of you have as well) and I don't remember a hollowness to the point of that Huck344 describes. something ain't right.

is it the same on all albums? add a little more weight to the arm. my cart actually sounds better with a bit more weight on it.. still within the recommendations.. but if I go to light on the arm, i lose to much mids and bass. so play around with the gram weight.

other than that.. be sure the stylus is seated properly on the cartridge.

Agreed Al but different cartridges will be tighter than others and can get that hollow sound. If Huck goes through all the exercises and the problem remains then I would have to go with catridge breakin. I've heard cartridges sound harsh, bassless, brassy, hollow, smeared image etc before they broke in.



Also off topic here;

Harry Pearson and Michael Fremer have found that you can go up to a gram over the manufacturerer's recommended down pressure without causing any wear or damage isssues to the record. I've experimented with this concept (after talking to my cartridge manufacturer) and found it to be true. I tried all different weights up go a gm over. I have my cartridge running at a weight of between .25 & .33 gms over the manufacturers rec. and that is where the cart sounds its best.

[dkg999]

I've got the 2M Blue mounted on a Pro-ject 7C arm on a Music Hall MMF 5.1SE turntable and it sounded great from the beginning. I really haven't noticed any changes with break in and I use it with mainly with headphones.

[hearingimpared]

Well the last three I've owned; a Dynavector 10 x 5 sounded screechy and lifeless and hollow until I hit 35 hours; a ZYX FUJI sound dull and bloated bass with intermittent harshness and hollow sounds until that hit over 60ish hours; and, the cartridge I use now ZYX Airy 3 SB sounded like absolute ass to the point where I had to call Sorasound because I thought it was damaged. He told me they take a long time to break in . . . .it took over 100 hours atleast and then it just came to startling life.

I've noticed that on previously owned MM carts that I've purchased sounded almost right on, right out of the box.

[hearingimpared]

I've got the 2M Blue mounted on a Pro-ject 7C arm on a Music Hall MMF 5.1SE turntable and it sounded great from the beginning. I really haven't noticed any changes with break in and I use it with mainly with headphones.

Doug is that an MC or MM cartridge?

[dkg999]

It's a MM cart! It's one step up from the 2M Red the OP is using.

[hearingimpared]

It's a MM cart! It's one step up from the 2M Red the OP is using.

Hmmmmm. . . . maybe it isn't a breakin issue at all.

I've been thinking on this; Doug Or Huck, do you know if it is low, medium or high compliance?

[Huck344]

Hmmmmm. . . . maybe it isn't a breakin issue at all.

I've been thinking on this; Doug Or Huck, do you know if it is low, medium or high compliance?

I apologize for my ignorance, but I don't know what you mean by "compliance"

I am going to try and add some weight. Right now, I have it at the recommended 1.8g. One of my wife's first comments was that it sounded like the needle wasn't down in the grooves. I always go to her to confirm my findings because sometimes I am almost trying to find something wrong in the sound.

On vinyl that is in really good condition, it sounds pretty good (not great), but on cheap used vinyl that I bought at a local shop for $0.99 it sounds like absolute ass. Totally unlistenable.

I guess that what frustrates me is that the cartridge that came with the TT sounded very decent, but it had a down force of 3.5g. Everything I read about the stock cartridge was that it needed to be changed in order to avoid possible damage to the vinyl. Other users of this TT had good results with the 2M Red which is why I went with Ortofon.

To ask another dumb question (just to make sure that I am doing it right). When I am using the protractor to do the alignment, the cartridge must be parallel to the lines on the side when it is on point A and B, correct? Does the front of the cartridge also need to be perpendicular to the lines? I can get it parallel, but in order to make sure it is parallel at both points, it sits slightly off square in the headshell.

[hearingimpared]

I apologize for my ignorance, but I don't know what you mean by "compliance"

I am going to try and add some weight. Right now, I have it at the recommended 1.8g. One of my wife's first comments was that it sounded like the needle wasn't down in the grooves. I always go to her to confirm my findings because sometimes I am almost trying to find something wrong in the sound.

On vinyl that is in really good condition, it sounds pretty good (not great), but on cheap used vinyl that I bought at a local shop for $0.99 it sounds like absolute ass. Totally unlistenable.

I guess that what frustrates me is that the cartridge that came with the TT sounded very decent, but it had a down force of 3.5g. Everything I read about the stock cartridge was that it needed to be changed in order to avoid possible damage to the vinyl. Other users of this TT had good results with the 2M Red which is why I went with Ortofon.

To ask another dumb question (just to make sure that I am doing it right). When I am using the protractor to do the alignment, the cartridge must be parallel to the lines on the side when it is on point A and B, correct? Does the front of the cartridge also need to be perpendicular to the lines? I can get it parallel, but in order to make sure it is parallel at both points, it sits slightly off square in the headshell.

In simple terms compliance is how easy (low, medium or high) or stiff the cantilever moves up and down, side to side in the mounting (usually a rubber composite) of the cantilever just as it enters the cartridge body. The reason I asked is low compliance carts definitely need more break-in time than high compliance carts. This also makes a difference in mating your cartridge to a tonearm. You can usually find this info in the spec sheet that came with the cartridge.

As long as you get the sides of the cartridge body paralllel at both null points you're good.

BTW you really don't want to use a DJ cartridge in a home application.

[Huck344]

In simple terms compliance is how easy (low, medium or high) or stiff the cantilever moves up and down, side to side in the mounting (usually a rubber composite) of the cantilever just as it enters the cartridge body. The reason I asked is low compliance carts definitely need more break-in time than high compliance carts. This also makes a difference in mating your cartridge to a tonearm. You can usually find this info in the spec sheet that came with the cartridge.

As long as you get the sides of the cartridge body paralllel at both null points you're good.

BTW you really don't want to use a DJ cartridge in a home application.

Thanks Joe. I'll play around with it some more to see if it breaks in a bit. I knew when I got the TT that I was going to change the cart because I didn't want a DJ cartridge.

Either way, it's great getting back into vinyl. Had a friend come over the other day. He's not into vinyl anymore but brought over about 50 albums from the 80's that he had. All of them in perfect or close to perfect condition. Many rare. Even though he doesn't listen to vinyl, he refused to sell me any of them. I actually think I'm going to enjoy the searching and collecting part of vinyl almost as much as the listening part!:D

[billbillw]

To ask another dumb question (just to make sure that I am doing it right). When I am using the protractor to do the alignment, the cartridge must be parallel to the lines on the side when it is on point A and B, correct? Does the front of the cartridge also need to be perpendicular to the lines? I can get it parallel, but in order to make sure it is parallel at both points, it sits slightly off square in the headshell.

This is what I was trying to say earlier. Yes, it really should be square. To get it parallel at both null points, you just have to move it further or closer to the tonearm pivot. You will find a point eventually that works.

[hearingimpared]

Thanks Joe. I'll play around with it some more to see if it breaks in a bit. I knew when I got the TT that I was going to change the cart because I didn't want a DJ cartridge.

Either way, it's great getting back into vinyl. Had a friend come over the other day. He's not into vinyl anymore but brought over about 50 albums from the 80's that he had. All of them in perfect or close to perfect condition. Many rare. Even though he doesn't listen to vinyl, he refused to sell me any of them. I actually think I'm going to enjoy the searching and collecting part of vinyl almost as much as the listening part!:D

Hahaha, I carried my over 1000 LP collection around with me for 20 years keeping them in a climate controlled environment because I knew that I would be back into setting up a rig eventually. There was no way in hell I was going to sell them off during that period.

Although, when my condo was robbed back in 1997 these smart thieves stole many rare and irreplaceable records such as my full UHQR collection from MFSL and some other MFSL pressings.

I'm glad things are coming together for you.:)

[billbillw]

Even though he doesn't listen to vinyl, he refused to sell me any of them.

I've got a friend I work with that is exactly the same way, although, I don't think his collection is more than a hundred or so. I've even offered a couple times to give him one of my spare turntables so he could listen to his collection, but he doesn't seem interested. According to him, most of the albums have only been played once or twice to dub to cassette. I think he believes that they will be worth a fortune some day. I told him to watch out for mold and warping.

[hearingimpared]

I've got a friend I work with that is exactly the same way, although, I don't think his collection is more than a hundred or so. I've even offered a couple times to give him one of my spare turntables so he could listen to his collection, but he doesn't seem interested. According to him, most of the albums have only been played once or twice to dub to cassette. I think he believes that they will be worth a fortune some day. I told him to watch out for mold and warping.

I use to think the same way and even with a lot of rare LPs in my collection, I don't think it would bring in some major coin. A few I've seen on ebay for some decent cash but you know what, they are only worth a fortune to me and I'll never let them go. Too much love and care has gone into the collection.

[Huck344]

Just as an update, I played around with the cartridge a bit more over the weekend. It definitely sounds much better. Actually, instrumental music sounds pretty awesome. I'm still feel that singers voices are a little held back or withdrawn. Not exactly muffled. Just not as loud as the music. Does that make any sense?

In general, I am satisfied. I'm hoping that the cartridge breaks in a bit more. I guess I'm just kind of perplexed that voices are sounding as open as I think they should. . . Then again, maybe it's my system!!!

[hearingimpared]

Just as an update, I played around with the cartridge a bit more over the weekend. It definitely sounds much better. Actually, instrumental music sounds pretty awesome. I'm still feel that singers voices are a little held back or withdrawn. Not exactly muffled. Just not as loud as the music. Does that make any sense?

In general, I am satisfied. I'm hoping that the cartridge breaks in a bit more. I guess I'm just kind of perplexed that voices are sounding as open as I think they should. . . Then again, maybe it's my system!!!

Give it more time Huck. I was getting freaked out when my latest cartridge was new and each time I listened to music after several more hours, the sound improved intermittently, but as times just sounded like ass, until the cartridge was fully broken in. That does seem like the issue here as you are getting improvements in the SQ.

How many hours do you have on it? If by 35 hours you don't hear a marked improvement give it 15 more hours before looking at something else in the chain as a problem. Just my humble opinion based on experience.

[HB27]

Huck,
You're getting some great trouble shooting advice here.
Here's one more thing you might look into. I've got basically the same issue here on my "test system".
I'm running an Onkyo TX-DS656 receiver and the phono section is a bit weak for TT use. Yes, it will play TT's just fine but it is weak in sound quality in the Phono section.
You're describing the same issues I have with mine. Since this system is not a major use system I havent' been too concerned with the sound quality but....I did borrow a cheapie DJ microphone/Phono line preamp from a close buddy and the difference is noticable.
While the borrowed unit was noisy the difference in sound showed me quick the Onkyo needs help in the Phono section.
Here's a link to browse I got here off Club Polk. I don't remember who posted it but they said even the lower priced phono pre was a major improvement.
http://www.phonopreamps.com/tc750lcpp.html
I'd continue to burn in the cart AND TT for a while before I started switching things around. ONE CHANGE AT A TIME so you're not chasing ghosts.
Harry

[Huck344]

Thanks for the advice guys. The cartridge has maybe 15 hours on it now and does sound better.

I have an Onkyo Tx--SR803. I have it connected through the phono input and I do have to jack up the volume much greater than when playing CD's through the CD input. My TT does have a built in pre-amp section that I can switch on, so I will probably try that and connect through Aux connection on the AVR.

But, I do want to buy an independent pre-amp. Thanks for the link HB27. Those pre-amps look like a good starting point for me. . . Of course knowing myself, I'll own it for 2 months and then want to upgrade!!!