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  1. #1

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    Default Laserdisc vs DVD Audio Quality Test Part 1.

    After months (almost a year) or researching Dolby Stereo vs Dolby Digital and DVD vs Laserdisc sound I finally was able to borrow a Pioneer CLD-3090 and a hand full of discs. Having spoken with people within the field of recording and those who owned and serviced LD players 'back in the day' I wanted to confirm something that I had heard as rumor, myth and folklore for years: Laserdisc used Theatrical mixes that were louder and more explosive then those found on BD and DVD. The notion is that while BD certainly uses higher bit rates, and DVD uses digital neither format could compete in the 'you're at the theatre' sound dynamics. BD and DVD releases are often remixed or re-Eq'd for home use often watering down the soundtracks to comply with the crappy speakers often found in HTIB's and televisions. Laserdisc never had this issue as the format was entirely marketed to enthusiasts, with the idea being that the consumer would have a screening room and equipment able to handle the dynamics of a theatrical cut. What you heard on Laser was EXACTLY the level heard at a local Cinema with no water down effect. This is part 1 of hopefully an on-going process.

    The two discs used were THX editions of Empire Strikes Back and Top Gun. I happen to own Empire on DVD and did side by side comparisons. The equipment included 1 pair of Dynaudio Speakers, a Yamaha RXV3900 receiver with Sim Audio amplification and a rather crappy 32" Toshiba LCD television. The BD player was connected via HDMI into the receiver. The LD player was connected via S-Video and analog connection into the receiver and the picture was output using HDMI to the display. ONLY the analog tracks were used when comparing the Laserdisc's, both LD discs had AC-3 tracks however I don't have a demodulator and could only use analog.

    First up was Empire Strikes Back. I actually had planned on watching the movie simply on LD first but was enticed to dig up the DVD quickly as I was hearing things at a much higher dynamic then I expected. Two scenes stuck out. The Hoth battle scene and the carbon freezing scene. For the Hoth battle I noticed that when the AT-AT's walked you could hear/feel the impact of the feet pounding the ground, it was clear but huge sounding. I had my gain on the Yamaha set to -30db and the impact was present, the drama intensified. I popped my DVD into a BD player and quickly searched for the same scene. I compared using the DVD's default DD EX soundtrack. The thump was there but it sounded like the volume had been choked out. Certain things were louder then others, soft sounds appeared louder but those dynamic loud lifts were missing. Everything seemed somewhat watered down. I then selected the Stereo analog track on the DVD, this actually sounded as good if not better on only a two speaker system, but again something was missing. The LD seemed like Cola while the DVD was Diet. The sheer volume, peaks and dynamic of the LD was lost when I switched to the DVD counterpart. Same for the Carbon freezing scene, as the action ramped up and the scene came to a crescendo the LD had me pinned back, I felt like was I was at a movie theatre, things got loud quickly. The DVD was simply there, the climax of Han being frozen was almost lost, it wasn't nearly as dramatic, the LD simply blew it out of the water. All the information was there but on just such a small scale.

    Next up I put in Top Gun, THX. I don't have the standard DVD version but I will be purchasing on Blu Ray. The opening tittle sequence is as dynamic as I've ever heard my system on any material. It literally energized the room and it was VERY loud but very very clean. I stopped turning the volume up at -20db as I feared the wrath of my neighbours. And this was simply the two channel PCM soundtrack. While I can't do a direct comparison yet I hope to in the coming weeks. The opening scene of Top Gun on LD is demo worthy of any material I've come across. It simply ignites a smile across ones face. The power of the soundtrack is so clear, the bass response so dynamic.

    I will continue to try and run these tests when I have time, I won't be running out to buy a LD player just yet as the picture quality is a real let down. Part of the problem I imagine is that most flat panel televisions have likely gutted any attempt to put in even decent comb filters to help the performance of the picture. It is a fun little test however and I encourage anybody with an LD player to dig it up and pop in a few discs, you might be surprised on what you have had tucked away for many years.

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    Interesting test you have done, great work. On your issue with S-Video if your TV can input this do it that way, I have a satellite DVB Ku dish with I watch some shows that way one of those channels looks very nice almost like like HD for 480i input. If I use my AVR to upgrade to HDMI to tv something is lost, it works but not the same.

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    Interesting tests. My dad has a LD player and as a kid I used to watch movies on that all the time. The movies always sound incredible. He had carver amps and a Polk Rm3000. It would not surprise me at all to see LD out preform DVD
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    Sorry Lush, I know I promised to do a comparison of LD and DVD. I will get to that and see if my results are the same as yours.

    My equipment would be a Denon AVR-4802 reciever. My Denon DVD-5910 DVD player, a Pioneer LD-S2 laserdisc player and a pair of Polk 3.1TL speakers. I will give a listen maybe Tues. or Wed. and get back to the thread afterwards.

    Greg

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    I owned Laser Disk for years and never do I remember the sound quality being better then DVD let alone now Blu ray. I don't buy it.

    I had a RF demodulator inside my Pioneer Elite receiver back then so I got to hear it in it's full quality. I had a full RT polk system and I thought it was damn good. Video quality however was not on par with DVD no way no how. Better then VCR is what I always thought of Laser Disk.

    Now I wish I still had my player and all my disc's. I want to compare. Hell I think we have a player at the shop , I'm gonna look around and see if I can put this together and give it a real test.

    Thanks now I have a new thing to test.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.

  6. #6

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    Mantis,

    Take Empire or Top Gun and do an A/B. In terms of sheer volume and dynamics it won't be a contest. I've heard people using Jurassic Park DTS LD vs DVD come away with the same impressions. I first heard about the differences when listening to Apocalypse Now LD vs DVD years ago. It's all about how LD is a theatrical EQ vs DVD's home remixed EQ. Don't take my word for it. Try it.

    Also note, LD was lossless audio...two channel PCM re-encoded, not a lossy format like DD on DVD. Regardless as noted the main differences were in the sheer volume and grunt in the actual mix.
    Last edited by LuSh; 05-09-2010 at 08:06 PM.

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    I believe the Yamaha RX-v 1800 has AC-3 capabilities, or they are called something else today. If you have 5.1 analog out from the LD player and got to the 7.1 inputs on the Yammy, that will automatically be AC3 or the equivalent. I plan in getting my LD back in the rack here soon.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Monoblocks, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds, Dodd Audio MLP, Pioneer Elite SC-65, Peachtree I-DAC, Oppo BDP-93, Yamaha PX-3 Turntable, with Sumiko BPS EVOIII, Pioneer PDD 9MkII SACD Player, SimAudio moon 110lp phono preamplifier

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  8. #8

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    Hi Nooshinjohn,

    AC-3 is/was basically Dolby Digital in it's earliest form. On Laserdisc however it was carried through an RF frequency and was only output in RF format. One would have to purchase an RF Demodulator OR have a receiver with AC-3/RF input which could then demodulate the signal.

    Output of LD players included optical (for DTS) analog or RF.

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    Maybe using a THX DVD isn't the best plan... considering they typically have the THX rolloff pre-applied before encoding (which is a practice that annoyed the hell out of me).

    Not that it negates your results. Just sayin'. I used to hate getting DVDs that had the THX logo, 'cause you never knew how much they were going to muck up the sound.
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  10. #10

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    Default Laserdisc blows away the dynamics of DVD

    OK, I just got done doing a comparison of the Yessongs Laserdisc to the Yessongs DVD.

    I chose this title because they are both in PCM stereo and are both exactly the same master (the remastered version). I started with the DVD and put on "Yours is no disgrace" and listened to it (Ok, I watched too;)). Immediately afterwards I put in the LD and listened to the same song. I immediately noticed that the LD had a more open sound, including better stereo separation. More importantly though, the DVD sounded very compressed compared to the LD. All instruments sounded at exactly the same level compared to the LD. That is through the entire song it sounded this way. The LD had much better dynamics with more instrument separation. Chris Squires bass sounded more separated from Steve Howe's guitar and they were at different volume levels. They were not this way on the DVD. Sorry, I gotta go. I will continue this in about 45 minutes.

    Greg

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    Hey Headrott,

    If you can try any of the following:

    Jurassic Park
    Apocalypse Now (I really REALLY wish I had this on LD)
    Empire Strikes Back
    Saving Private Ryan
    The Rock
    Mission Impossible

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuSh View Post
    Hey Headrott,

    If you can try any of the following:

    Jurassic Park
    Apocalypse Now (I really REALLY wish I had this on LD)
    Empire Strikes Back
    Saving Private Ryan
    The Rock
    Mission Impossible
    Sorry, I don't have any of those on both LD AND DVD. I have Jurassic Park on LD, but not DVD and the same with Empire (I refused to buy the DVD of any of episodes 4 through 6 until they are released remastered).

    I can compare the DVD of The Matrix and LD of it. Also, the other LD and DVD to compare that I had out was Contact. I also have the LD and DVD of Top Gun to compare. I probably have quite a few others to compare, but will have to look through them. Yessongs was a perfect example to compare because they are both the exact same master of the movie and they both are only in PCM stereo so the sound is in exactly the same format on the LD and DVD.

    I remembered that the LD sounded better than the DVD as far as dynamics go, but I was really amazed after listening again and comaring how much better the LD was compared to the DVD. It's not even a contest between the two as far as dynamics go. Also, since the dynamics are better, the clarity of the the instruments are much better too. I will try a few more comparisons and report back.

    Greg

  13. #13

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    Hey Greg,

    I found myself shaking my head with Empire. The DVD was just soooo watered down. For fun listen to Jurassic Park. I really wish I had that disc, it is said to be one of the best ever in terms of dynamics. I will be shocked if Top Gun on LD doesn't destroy the DVD, I was amazed at the output on two speakers via LD. I might actually purchase an LD player now for giggles. I wish the picture was better (very very bad) but I think that's more to do with my panel not doing a good job of filtering and the LD player itself.

    Reading various blogs and forums I've come to understand that while small subtle differences can be had when improving your source via DVD player, the differences on LD were night and day and only a small handful of Pioneer and two Panasonic's really offered close comparisons to DVD. If I could get the picture even remotely close to DVD I think I'd pull the trigger. The picture currently is VHS quality (at least on my setup).

    Please post back. I haven't had this much fun tweaking since my early days of audio...I think part of the reason is because it's so cheap and innocent. Most of this stuff is just lying around abandoned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuSh View Post
    Reading various blogs and forums I've come to understand that while small subtle differences can be had when improving your source via DVD player, the differences on LD were night and day and only a small handful of Pioneer and two Panasonic's really offered close comparisons to DVD. If I could get the picture even remotely close to DVD I think I'd pull the trigger. The picture currently is VHS quality (at least on my setup).

    Please post back. I haven't had this much fun tweaking since my early days of audio...I think part of the reason is because it's so cheap and innocent. Most of this stuff is just lying around abandoned.
    Real quick, I recommend getting a Pioneer LD-S2 LD player. The picture quality is very very good and the audio is very very good. It's (IMO) the best LD player ever made.

    Greg

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuSh View Post
    I wish the picture was better (very very bad) but I think that's more to do with my panel not doing a good job of filtering and the LD player itself.
    I don't think you're going to be able to improve the picture much. You're dealing with an analog low resolution signal that your panel has to scale to its native resolution. And HDTV scalers are pretty poor in the first place.

    Approximate pixels:

    VHS: 330x480
    Laser Disk: 560x480
    DVD: 720x480
    Blu-ray: 1920x1080

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuSh View Post
    Hey Headrott,

    If you can try any of the following:

    Jurassic Park
    Apocalypse Now (I really REALLY wish I had this on LD)
    Empire Strikes Back
    Saving Private Ryan
    The Rock
    Mission Impossible
    I have the last 4 on Laser and DVD.Will have to check it out this weekend when i have some time.

    This might be fun
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    Hey Cheddar,

    I've come to understand the LD player I'm using isn't very good. From what I've read Pioneer's of at least the CLD-7 series are the ones where picture quality becomes tolerable. The scaler in my receiver is decent (ABT2010) but I think the LD player is holding me back, the quality of video varies greatly from player to player unlike DVD which results in a fairly good picture regardless of price.

    Headrott is probably viewing a picture much better then mine, however he's also using a very high end player that retailed for $3,500 back in the day which was designed only to work with LD and no other optical format. I've been told that these types of players through a DVD Edge scaler results in a picture almost as good as DVD. The picture I get now is far worse.

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    Yes, I've read that not only is video quality varied but also audio options and compatibility from player to player.

    I guess there's some good retro fun in playing around with a LD player if you've got the gear. But it seems like a lot of trouble to go through to get a picture 'almost' as good as DVD.

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    Yah, I'm not really after the picture however...it's more for me the sound. I'm just looking for a picture I can tolerate.

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    Lush, if you get the LD-S2 you will be satisied with the picture. Still not quite as good as DVD, but it is relatively close. If DVD was a "10", I would say the LD-S2 is about a "7". I was amazed at how close the picture quality was to DVD that was even upscaled to hi-def considering the LD was made many many years before DVD. I am using the top of the line Denon DVD player (DVD-5910) and the top of the line Pioneer LD player (LD-S2) for comparison. The sound is without question better. Period.

    Flyfisher, I used to live in Manteca (just south of Stockton). Is it getting in to the 90 degree weather yet there?

    Greg

    P.S. I will still need to do the other comparisons and then post the results.

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    Hey,

    If you see any 703/704...99 or S2's on the web or locally let me know. I'm game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuSh View Post
    Hey Headrott,

    If you can try any of the following:

    Jurassic Park
    Apocalypse Now (I really REALLY wish I had this on LD)
    Empire Strikes Back
    Saving Private Ryan
    The Rock
    Mission Impossible
    I have all of those, along with Apollo 13, the collectors edition Star Wars Trillogy, Red October, Goldeneye, and a bunch of others.

    Is the Pioneer CLD-D504 a decent player, or should I give up on the idea of adding this format to my stack of stuff?
    Last edited by nooshinjohn; 05-14-2010 at 12:00 AM.
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    The 7 series and up from what I've read are the ones that offer close to DVD video quality. Connect your LD player up. I think you will be surprised to what you hear. Might be fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuSh View Post
    The 7 series and up from what I've read are the ones that offer close to DVD video quality. Connect your LD player up. I think you will be surprised to what you hear. Might be fun.
    Mine has the built in RF modulator for AC-3...
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Monoblocks, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds, Dodd Audio MLP, Pioneer Elite SC-65, Peachtree I-DAC, Oppo BDP-93, Yamaha PX-3 Turntable, with Sumiko BPS EVOIII, Pioneer PDD 9MkII SACD Player, SimAudio moon 110lp phono preamplifier

    "The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living." Brad Shurett

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuSh View Post
    Hey,

    If you see any 703/704...99 or S2's on the web or locally let me know. I'm game.
    Lush,

    This one is somewhat expensive, but it does look to be in fairly good shape. No remote though. It seems the remotes for these always disappear..... It does have a best offer for it though.

    Greg

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Pioneer-LD-Laser...item5ad95d110f

    Or a CLD-99:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/PIONEER-ELITE-CL...item19bb9255b2

    I recommend the LD-S2 though by far.
    Last edited by headrott; 05-14-2010 at 01:52 AM.

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    I'm taking my borrowed LD player to a friends tonight. He has a proper 5.1 setup where as I only have 2 channel. I think he's in for a shock as he's into the latest and greatest gadgets. We'll be using his Pioneer Elite SC-05 with Energy reference connoisseur. I picked up Top Gun on Blu Ray. I have no doubt that the resolution will be higher on the DTS-HD Lossless tracks (16bit LD vs 24bit BD) however I'm interested to hear if the BD has been watered down in terms of sheer volume and impact. I like hot recordings for movies. We'll also be using his Sony PS3 for BD and DVD. I'm going to try and use an optical connection between the LD and Receiver in order to ensure the receivers DAC's are being used in both situations.

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    Might want to take over an SPL meter too. Just to level match the two tracks in case one is just recorded louder. That way you won't be substituting volume for quality.

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    Hey Cheddar,

    That's the whole point of Laser...they didn't suck out the volume that was in the Theatre...they left it. The DVD and BD content we listen has the volume sucked out in order to make it sound decent on HTIB's and flat panel televisions.

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    Was the CLD-99 and the LD-S2 top of the line LD players from pioneer?I had a DVL909 from 1998 I just gave to my Brother and picked up a DVl919 from ebay at a reasonable price.
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    Interesting results tonight:

    Top Gun LD (Digital PCM w/ Prologic II) vs Top Gun Blu Ray (DTS HD MA)...the separation was to BD's favor with ease. Clarity was overall better as was dynamics with the BD, but it was close. (we both agreed that the LD had better overall levels as we found the BD Subwoofer output too hot). Picture quality was surprisingly close. The BD beat it mind you but the pq of the LD was a lot better then expected.

    Empire Strikes Back LD (Digital PCM w/ Prologic II) vs Empire Strikes Back DVD (DD 5.1). The picture of the DVD DESTROYED the LD, the picture was so good it was a slight step below BD, on a proper setup you can really tell that Empire was a late release on DVD and boy did they ever beef up the picture. The audio on the other hand was a different story. Comparing PCM Prologic II vs the DVD DD 5.1 was almost as bad as CD vs MP3. The DVD sounded HARSH, almost nasty in comparison to the LD. The LD's dynamics were a complete opposite of what I expected. I was thinking big loud sound...instead it was a matched level but cleaner. You could turn it up louder...it had a real ease to its nature. Separation was in DVD's favor but not enough to make me want to listen to it. If I could get DVD quality picture with LD sound I'd be happy.

    That's it for now. I'll try and post more tests when I have time.

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