Classical Music Junk...Beethoven Missa Solemnis

[Pycroft]

Hi,

I just wanted to share something with the group. Listening to music for me is more than just enjoyment. Since I am a classical musician, and have performed many pieces of music, sometimes listening goes beyond the mere enjoyment factor - it reminds me of a performance I did, or a moment I've had in my life.

I just finished listening to the most difficult work I have ever performed, and the greatest work I have ever performed - The Beethoven Missa Solmenis. If you are not familiar with it, it may be because it is rarely performed because of its difficulty. The fugues are ridiculous to perform, the tessitura for the singer is RIDICULOUS. We practiced most of it down an entire octave due to the great high range required. I was delighted to perform the work in (I believe) 2000 with the Philadelphia Orchestra. As their last performance at the Academy of Music (Before the Kimmel Center opened) they decided that the last performance at the venue would be the Missa Solemnis - a fitting exit. It was conducted by Wolfgang Sawalich, and it was amazing.

Listening this morning, I was transformed back to the performance - the beginning movement where Beethoven takes the word Amen to a new height. The second movement - my favorite - the Gloria, where the choir takes the word high, loud, and sustained to new heights, and the end where it goes from the meter of 3/4 to 3/8 - a masterful genius move. The Credo movement that has the most ridiculous fugue. The Sanctus with an outstanding violin solo, with vocal solo work that is to die for, and the Dona Nobis Pacem - with the most ridiculous orchestral modulation section I have ever experienced played live. I still have goose bumps.

[hearingimpared]

James, you are such a tease . . . how about a link to your favorite performance of this piece?

[Pycroft]

Here are the ones I own:
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Sole...8505950&sr=8-1 - Good performance on period instruments. I'm not a huge Gardiner fan, but this is a decent performance.

Here's the one I listened to this morning - I'm not a fan of some of the tempi used, but I really liked the Gloria movement and the sactus movement. http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Van-...8506120&sr=8-1

Here's are two I have for sentimental reasons - my college performed them (Well before I was there)

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Miss...06184&sr=301-1

Damn - Can't find the other but it is a two disc live recording.

Many of the others I have are rare recordings I picked up from Princeton record exchange.

James

[hearingimpared]

Here are the ones I own:
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Sole...8505950&sr=8-1 - Good performance on period instruments. I'm not a huge Gardiner fan, but this is a decent performance.

Here's the one I listened to this morning - I'm not a fan of some of the tempi used, but I really liked the Gloria movement and the sactus movement. http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Van-...8506120&sr=8-1

Here's are two I have for sentimental reasons - my college performed them (Well before I was there)

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Miss...06184&sr=301-1

Damn - Can't find the other but it is a two disc live recording.

Many of the others I have are rare recordings I picked up from Princeton record exchange.

James

You know, I'm just thinking with all the Beethoven LP box sets I have I'm willing to bet I have a performance or two of this.

[Pycroft]

Possible, but often the box sets are all nine symphonies, all piano sonatas, etc. If you have one with choral works, or Beethoven masses, it may be in there. If so, let me know what recording it is. I don't have any on vinyl yet (Not that I have a turntable yet, but I still have quite a few vinyl).

James

[hearingimpared]

Possible, but often the box sets are all nine symphonies, all piano sonatas, etc. If you have one with choral works, or Beethoven masses, it may be in there. If so, let me know what recording it is. I don't have any on vinyl yet (Not that I have a turntable yet, but I still have quite a few vinyl).

James

James I have so many different box sets by Ludwig V that I'm sure there are choral works in there. I was a member of the Musical Heritage Society and they were famous for putting out LPs of the master's not-so-well-known pieces. Plus I've collected quite a bit of classical over the years so I think the chance are good that I have a copy. However, the chance of me finding it slim as my record collection is all over the place and in a couple of different states!;)

[fatchowmein]

I just wanted to share something with the group. Listening to music for me is more than just enjoyment. Since I am a classical musician, and have performed many pieces of music, sometimes listening goes beyond the mere enjoyment factor - it reminds me of a performance I did, or a moment I've had in my life.

How do you reconcile your live performances in a concert hall with the audio output of a 2 channel stereo in your home? No offense nor any intent of trolling here. I'm completely serious. If I can reproduce Beethoven's Shepherd Song and feel the full orchestra at home, I'll be ecstatic. There's just something magically about a live orchestra.

Thx

[Pycroft]

Fatchowmein -

That's a very fair question, and one I have contemplated often - how can I most accurately produce the sound I want from my system to feel like live music. That actually has a musical tern - mimetics or something like that - it's an interesting concept that follows the line of thinking that a musician (Particularly a conductor) has a 'perfect sound' predetermined in his or her mind and strives to get there with the ensemble. You will most likely never reach that sound since no performance is perfect - so the music will always be disappointing.

In this case - what I was talking about was not based on the actual music production, but just hearing the music made me, in a way, feel what it felt like to perform. I can close my eyes and remember telling the tenor section - "Alright tenor's - GO" and us, for the first time, singing the Gloria up the octave and the rush it gave. I remember what Sawallich looked like conducting the violin solo in the fourth movement, and I remember what it felt like to sing the fugue in the Credo. Singing, and any music performance when done at a higher level, is more enjoyable than anyone who just listens - it becomes part of who you are. I know this may sound hokey to people out there that have never experienced it, but it's true for those of us who experience the art of music.

I hope that answered the question - in a not so roundabout way. To sum up - I don't think I will ever be able to create a 2 channel stereo system that will accurately reproduce the music that is made in a live performance - but for those who have performed music, it can still take us back to the time in which we did, and help us experience it again in some small, yet meaningful way.

James

[Pycroft]

Also,

I know that you are a classical music lover - are you familiar with the Missa Solemnis at all?

James

[fatchowmein]

Also,

I know that you are a classical music lover - are you familiar with the Missa Solemnis at all?

James

Thanks for the great reply.

I've only recently listened to Missa Solemnis in the past year because you recommended it before. As a layman, the music is a bit complex for my ears like Calculus 3. I have similar problems with Mozart but I love Mahler and Beethoven because I think they write music for the unwashed masses like me. lol

[Pycroft]

Remember, all music is meant to be enjoyed when listened to - I'm not sure Beethoven was thinking about the 'unwashed masses' when he wrote any of his music. Trust me, as a musician, just looking at the music, we knew it was going to be a huge challenge. I agree that some of it is perhaps difficult to listen to, to an untrained ear. Some of the subtle things that happen are amazing. For example (For those that know the piece well) - I learned something when listening to a historian speak about it. The first movement - Kyrie Eleison (Literally - Christ has mercy) is ALWAYS done with on the down-beat to make it feel very strong and secure. Beethoven starts it on the upbeat and then accents the down-beat which is in the middle of the word, which gives the listener a feeling like something is just 'off'. The historian I heard lecture on this spoke for 20 minutes that Beethoven perhaps did this to start the piece and prepare the listener for a tension filled ride. Everytime I listen, it amazes me that he wrote it while completely deaf (Unlike most of his other works when he was fine, or going deaf). It just proves the genius.

James

[Toolfan66]

Well now you have me wanting to get some Beethoven.

[John K.]

James, I enjoyed reading of your experiences and views. I played clarinet in school bands and orchestras many years ago, but my present active musical life involves singing in the choir(four women, two men)of the Eastern Rite church I belong to. The singing is more nearly that also heard in Orthodox churches, rather than in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, and no, nothing quite on the scale of the Missa Solemnis.

My own listening is almost entirely classical(about 1000 discs)and my favorite Missa Solemnis performance is the Solti in Berlin(not the Chicago), available here as used copies for very reasonable amounts.

For TOOL and others who might be interested in getting into Beethoven, the symphonies would probably be a better starting point, and I'd especially suggest the Kleiber performances of the 5th and 7th, and the Wand performance of the great 9th, all of these being available at scandalously low prices.

[Pycroft]

John-
Thanks for the great recommendations of discs - I haven't heard any of those. I always like Kleiber, but don't

I own many of his recordings. Also, I love the Chicago Symphony - they have my favorite Brahms Requiem recording ever - and i'll search for the Solti in Berlin.

In my short time, I've heard a few Orthodox services - very cool.

James

[hearingimpared]

James, I enjoyed reading of your experiences and views. I played clarinet in school bands and orchestras many years ago, but my present active musical life involves singing in the choir(four women, two men)of the Eastern Rite church I belong to. The singing is more nearly that also heard in Orthodox churches, rather than in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, and no, nothing quite on the scale of the Missa Solemnis.

My own listening is almost entirely classical(about 1000 discs)and my favorite Missa Solemnis performance is the Solti in Berlin(not the Chicago), available here as used copies for very reasonable amounts.

For TOOL and others who might be interested in getting into Beethoven, the symphonies would probably be a better starting point, and I'd especially suggest the Kleiber performances of the 5th and 7th, and the Wand performance of the great 9th, all of these being available at scandalously low prices.

John-
Thanks for the great recommendations of discs - I haven't heard any of those. I always like Kleiber, but don't

I own many of his recordings. Also, I love the Chicago Symphony - they have my favorite Brahms Requiem recording ever - and i'll search for the Solti in Berlin.

In my short time, I've heard a few Orthodox services - very cool.

James

I never agree with John on his views of cables and gear but he has ALWAYS made wonderful classical music suggestions and he's always spot on.

[fatchowmein]

For TOOL and others who might be interested in getting into Beethoven, the symphonies would probably be a better starting point, and I'd especially suggest the Kleiber performances of the 5th and 7th, and the Wand performance of the great 9th, all of these being available at scandalously low prices.

The Kleiber Beethoven Symphonies No. 5 & 7 on hybrid SACD is amazing.

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symp...9203750&sr=1-1