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  1. #61

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    Wire is not wire. And crap does equal crap.

    If the price is to good to be true then you're getting ripped. It could be built using copper clad aluminum. Use of extra thick insulation so they can use less copper. Less than optimal amount of strand count. The price of copper went way up. Even knuconcepts sells the cheap arse copper clad aluminum stuff unless you buy their top of the line wire. You don't buy products from some fly by nite made in tawain company. Look for deals from reputable companies. You'll get ripped off every time if you don't. There are lots of good deals out there that are made by reputable companies. Just gotta search a bit.
    Last edited by catch22atplay; 08-17-2010 at 09:12 AM.
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  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by catch22atplay View Post
    Wire is not wire. And crap does equal crap.

    If the price is to good to be true then you're getting ripped. It could be built using copper clad aluminum. Use of extra thick insulation so they can use less copper. Less than optimal amount of strand count. The price of copper went way up. Even knuconcepts sells the cheap arse copper clad aluminum stuff unless you buy their top of the line wire. You don't buy products from some fly by nite made in tawain company. Look for deals from reputable companies. You'll get ripped off every time if you don't. There are lots of good deals out there that are made by reputable companies. Just gotta search a bit.
    Quote Originally Posted by arun1963 View Post
    Unless its really crappy, wire is just wire. So, as long as the Hitron is 4gg it may solve Mizike's issues.

    My worst audio spend was $ 150 on 15' of Pear Comice 12gg speaker cable. I heard no difference over my $ 40 Kicker 12gg. I was pissed as hell. ;)
    I think I covered the points you raised. If it is 4gg and the metallurgy is consistent, its fine.

    Ok, assuming the hitron is 100% consistent in its metallurgy, could be any metal and is 4gg, why would it sound different from the top of the line, 100% copper, Knu power cable?

  3. #63

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    Talking watts here, not sound quality. An unregulated amp would look like this with 80% efficiency.

    14.4vX70aX.8=806watts

    Same amp with a voltage drop to amp to 12.5 volts.

    12.5vX70aX.8=700watts

    700 watts to speakers using 20 gauge speaker wire 6 feet in length combined is -100 watts approx.

    700-100=600 watts real power to subs.

    Note that changing to 4 gauge may not solve the problem. The alt and battery are important as well. I'd be swapping that speaker wire 1st for sure.
    Last edited by catch22atplay; 08-17-2010 at 03:19 PM.
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  4. #64

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    Default yeah

    Yeah Im really hoping chaning the wire fixes this. The amp overheated in 15 minutes today on the way home, it is hot as hell out and hot in the trunk im sure but damn thats insane. I will lower my gain. Yes it is 4volt out, I will turn it up with no sub, I think it is close though with no distortion to go up to 20 to 21 anytihng higher gets distorted though.

    What does the wattage, battery, alternator have to do with it heating up? If my battery is not strong enough will it make my amp overheat? I can have the AC on and sitting still bass cranking and it does not drop. My U.S. Amp would lose its bass with ac blowing full power and bass up though.

    I think my old wire was high quality but it is 8 guage. I know the Hitron is not phoenix gold wire but it is oxygen free copper and from what I have read, really close to actualy 4 guage size from the reviews on ebay, not a bunch of insulation. Not sure about the strand count though. Im sure its not close to the 100 dollar kit, but wasnt trying to put that out yet.

    And with your theory of the gain setting and 4 volt voltage only being 2volts at the lower volume, so lower the gain, but I play the radio at high volume 90 percent of the time, so wouldnt it then be a lot closer to 4 volts 90 percent of the time so gain should match the 3.5v to 4 volt range?
    Last edited by mizike; 08-17-2010 at 05:09 PM.

  5. #65

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    You still keep saying that distortion sets in at 20-21. With a max volume of 35, you are getting 60% of maximum volume before you have to back off. Your gains are still set improperly.

    You should be able to get to 28 MINIMUM before you start to hear distortion. Thats 80% of your volume. If you throw on bass boost and all that stuff it will lower that number a bit, but you say you don't have that on (and you shouldn't). Reset your gains properly and see how it sounds. Modify your EQ settings if its not to your liking.

    I mean no offense, but we really are beating a dead horse now. If you need to know how to set them properly, we can help you with that. I think it has already been mentioned before, but at this point I don't remember and don't care to read back through everything.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSkip View Post
    Start with upgrading that power/ground. The amp is straining to produce the power it should with that size cable. I'd be willing to bet that your previous amp wasn't producing what you thought it was with 8 ga wire ran to it.

    Please understand that everything I say isn't meant to pick on you, so please don't get defensive. I keep mentioning you blowing subs, its because of your gain settings. With gains set where you can't get above 60% volume, theres a good chance you or someone else in the car might unknowingly crank it up and destroy the subs. Setting a proper gain helps ensure that you won't be making mistakes with the volume knob that could send you to the local best buy/car audio shop.

    Everyone is at different levels here, and everyone is wanting something different with their sound. Kaos and I talked quite a bit about that when he listened to my system. He loved the sound, but he wanted heavier bass. Sometimes, he likes to be noticed, and thats fine. My bass is very level with the rest of the music, with only a small amount of the bass actually escaping the cabin of the car. It's nothing that would turn heads by any means.

    Your HU doesn't put out enough power to those components. Look at an entry level amp. Compare it to the size of your head unit. Know that the HU has a cd player, decoder, and all the electronics in there to make it run. Also know that the amp is all about power. Once you get them amped, you will hear a world of difference.

    A/B amps do run hotter than D amps, and that might be another concern.
    Yes we are all different in what we are wanting, and yes Dskip's speaker were so clean, and nice (which is what I am looking for in the highs), but thought that the mid bass could be a little more, but that is just me. Dskip is all about the SQ, and let me tell you what...... It sounded so goood. It was like candy for my ears. Man...... At anyrate. I like to be heard when I want to be a bass head, but I also am looking to get the SQ when I listen to bands like Tool. They have a very complex sound stage, and you need to have that clarity to hear all of what the indended you to hear to get the full understanding of the music.

    Now with you amp over heating, you should not be surprised about this at all considering where you have it placed. I mean think about it for a second.. Lets place you in a trunk, and we say that you have lift 50 lbs for the next hour consitantly. Now, with the weather outside being hot, that heat is also going into the space where you are. You are already creating your own heat, by lifting that 50lbs (or what I will call doing work). So combinded with the heat outside that is being obsorbed by the trunk your in, and the heat that you are creating yourself, by doing work. You would over heat in no time as well. So, the same concept here for you amp. Not to mention all the other things you have in front of you, power wire being to small etc etc. So, yeah you should not be surprised that it over heats.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by KaosTsoc; 08-17-2010 at 06:01 PM.

  7. #67

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    Default Not sure

    Not sure what you mean by I keep saying distortion sets in at 20 to 21, yes that is A FACT. I just went outside turned the bass off, turned my head unit up and it is loud and clean and comfortable at 20 to 21, nothing to do with the gain at this point because there is no amp and sub in the equation. Yes I can turn the volume higher on the HU but it gets too tinny and does not sound great, that is why the PG amp is going in for the components, but my gain is not set improperly because I can only go to 20 to 21 on my HU, the gain had nothing to do with that at this point.

    I have my gain set at a 1/4 now, the bass hits damn hard at a 1/4 and volume on the head unit at 20, and clear but it did heat up in about 15 minutes which is not good.

    Yes I thought maybe its because of the trunk but where the heck else do I put the amp, and every amp I have had has gone in the trunk. Maybe I am putting more wattage then I ever have into my subs now so the heat is increasing. I am confident that my gain is set properly and as low as you could possibly want to go.

    Volume is not distorting at 20, gain is at 1/4 and sounds good, just overheats. I will rerun the wires this weekend. I also had the amp on the top of my box, I have now put it on the trunk floor. Maybe any amp at that wattage will overheat in a freaking trunk in summer lol. not sure.
    Last edited by mizike; 08-17-2010 at 06:10 PM.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizike View Post
    Not sure what you mean by I keep saying distortion sets in at 20 to 21, yes that is A FACT. I just went outside turned the bass off, turned my head unit up and it is loud and clean and comfortable at 20 to 21, nothing to do with the gain at this point because there is no amp and sub in the equation. Yes I can turn the volume higher on the HU but it gets too tinny and does not sound great, that is why the PG amp is going in for the components, but my gain is not set improperly because I can only go to 20 to 21 on my HU, the gain had nothing to do with that at this point.

    I have my gain set at a 1/4 now, the bass hits damn hard at a 1/4 and volume on the head unit at 20, and clear but it did heat up in about 15 minutes which is not good.

    Yes I thought maybe its because of the trunk but where the heck else do I put the amp, and every amp I have had has gone in the trunk. Maybe I am putting more wattage then I ever have into my subs now so the heat is increasing. I am confident that my gain is set properly and as low as you could possibly want to go.

    Volume is not distorting at 20, gain is at 1/4 and sounds good, just overheats. I will rerun the wires this weekend. I also had the amp on the top of my box, I have now put it on the trunk floor. Maybe any amp at that wattage will overheat in a freaking trunk in summer lol. not sure.
    Wow you had your amp on your box. Me I would not do that ever. The reason for this is when you bass hits the whole box is shakeing, and so is you amp. It is being shook to death with it being on your box, and this will also cause some of wiring in the amp to become disconnected. I mean setting it on the floor is good, and yes there will still be vibrations getting to it, but at least with it stuck on the floor the foundation will be a lot more stable.

    I think what is being said about the gain is that if it is not set to the correct voltage of HU then you are putting to much power to the amp, which could also explain why it is getting so hot. Plus like has been said the wiring is also key here as well.

    As for placement of the amp you could set it under the seats, or behind the seats on the floor, and if you did that you power cable run would alot shorter, and at least you amp would be in a climate controlled area.

    Thanks.

  9. #69

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    I feel like the dead horse now....

    When you get the component amp installed, I'll help if there are still issues.

  10. #70

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    Default ayight

    Ayight DEAD HORSE lol. I got it at 1/4 gain so it should be on point for that setting, gonna have to amp the components and change the wires and pray that fixes the heat issue.

    Yeah wasnt thinking right with the amp on top I guess, but I did have it lifted off of the box with 4 pegs covered with felt to keep air going all around the amp, but didnt think about the bouncing. I think I will put it under the seat when I rewire to keep it in a cooler environment too.

  11. #71

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    @arun Of course i refer to getting ripped off by buying junk brand wire and it ending up being all insulation and no actual internal wire. Like i said have a run of Absolute 0ga sitting here that is closer to actual 8ga than anything else.

    @mizike Think of the power/ground/speaker/battery/alt (IE power system) as an asthmatic. Throw the amp trying to draw an extra 80amps of power from the system is like having the asthmatic run laps without an inhaler. Without the proper tools neither your amp nor the asthmatic will last very long.

    With improper wiring/power system on an amp that is admittedly less efficient and thus more power hungry then your previous amps you are essentially choking it.

    It also sounds like you are finally beginning to understand the need for proper gain setting, just make sure you go through the same process when you amp your components. Unlike with your HU running the comps you will end up having an actually balanced system. You will notice that you will have to set your volume at a higher level then previously most likely but it will be loud AND clear instead of loud and distorted.
    Last edited by Roswellien; 08-17-2010 at 09:46 PM.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizike View Post
    Yeah wasnt thinking right with the amp on top I guess, but I did have it lifted off of the box with 4 pegs covered with felt to keep air going all around the amp, but didnt think about the bouncing. I think I will put it under the seat when I rewire to keep it in a cooler environment too.
    No worries. That what the forum is for, to help you understand etc. Yeah you did right with the peg's, and I would suggest that you do the same when you mount the amp under the seat if you can, or where ever you decide to put it. So, it sounds like the fog is starting to clear here for you, and that is good. Plus (please correct me if I am worng) with you upgradeing the wires it should also help with the heating up issue as well.

    Thanks.

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by catch22atplay View Post
    Talking watts here, not sound quality. An unregulated amp would look like this with 80% efficiency.

    14.4vX70aX.8=806watts

    Same amp with a voltage drop to amp to 12.5 volts.

    12.5vX70aX.8=700watts

    700 watts to speakers using 20 gauge speaker wire 6 feet in length combined is -100 watts approx.

    700-100=600 watts real power to subs.

    Note that changing to 4 gauge may not solve the problem. The alt and battery are important as well. I'd be swapping that speaker wire 1st for sure.
    how did we go from talking about expensive wire is better, to talking about something thats purely a battery issue?

    Most stock alternators wouldn't feed your amps with 70A.

  14. #74

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    Default ok

    So on top of all this madness, should I also get a capacitor, or better battery?

    Its getting a little clearer lol. Thanks for all the help. Im telling you I never went through any of this all my life though, just threw and amp in, turned gain 3/4s and cranked my head unit, always banged and sounded pretty damn clear and good lol. But this is the most wattage I have put in a system.

  15. #75

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    Don't waste money on a cap.

    It takes a while for things to sink in when what you have been doing "works". As with everything though, if its done right, it not only works, it shines.

  16. #76

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    As Dskip says don't waste money on a cap, its a bandaid for a problem instead of a cure. A battery would help, but first I would upgrade your power/ground wiring and do the big 3. After that you may want to look at a battery but with this wattage unless you are going to constantly push it hard you should be alright (assuming the battery you have now isnt 5yrs old and is of decent quality).

    Just remember like i said when the wire comes in compare the internal wire gauge to what you have run now, if its the same or smaller it would be a waste of time and if you can't return it a waste of money.

    Keep the runs as short as possible, the longer the run of wire the more resistance. If you can underseat mount your amp/amps great. Running a 12ga speaker wire from the seats to the trunk is also much easier then running a 4ga power cable. If at all possible also ground your amps back to the negative terminal of the battery with the same gauge wire you have for power. If not make sure the ground you go to is part of the chassis and you have sanded it down to bare metal.
    Last edited by Roswellien; 08-18-2010 at 04:49 PM.

  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizike View Post
    So on top of all this madness, should I also get a capacitor, or better battery?

    Its getting a little clearer lol. Thanks for all the help. Im telling you I never went through any of this all my life though, just threw and amp in, turned gain 3/4s and cranked my head unit, always banged and sounded pretty damn clear and good lol. But this is the most wattage I have put in a system.
    Do not waste your time or money on a cap. What should do is get your alt tested to see how many amps it is producing. Depending on how may amps it is currently producing will determin if you need to get a new alt or not. Also take into account that you will be running you A/C, and or heater, and head lights, power doors etc etc as well, which demands power from you alt. Also you need to take into account the voltage that the alt produces, the two common volts are 12v, and 14.4v. The more electircal demand you put your alt means that the voltage will drop as well.

    Example:

    I have a stock alt that only produces about 80 amps. Now, since I plan on running a 1700-2000 watt rms system I would have to get a HO (HO=Highout put) alt that produces no less than 140 amps. There is a formula that you would need to know to figure it out. (Note: W=watts, V=Volts, A=Amps) I think it is W/V = A, and V*A= W I think I am close, but look it up on the net, and you will find it. So, with that said if you take 1700/12= 141.66666666667. Which means that if I want to charge my battery at 12 volts, and in order for me keep up with demand of my system I would need an alt that will produce 141 amps. Now ( to make things evern more confusing LOL sorry) if I wanted to charge my battery at 14.4 volts then I would take 1700/14.4= 118.05555555556. Which means that I would need an alt that charges at 14.4v, that will produce 118 amps. So, in order for me to prevent the head light diming problem, and the draining of batteries, and burning up the alt. I have to get a HO alt.

    Kind of confusing I know, but you dont want to take any chances with your electrical, believe me I know all about that. I have fried some many fuses, and almost fried my HU case I did not pay attention to these things.


    Then once you have that figured out, then look at getting a new DEEP CYCLE battery. Optima makes one, get the yellow top if do get one, or look at Stinger, and Kinetic. There are some many different brands out there, you just have to look, and do some research. Also if you do look at kinetic, give them a call, and they will have a guy named David that will you back. He has a bunch of info that he can give you on how to choose your battery, and what you are looking for etc. So, that would be helpful. You also have to have to I repeat one more time HAVE TOO do the big 3 upgrade as well, if you are running that much power as well. I think for every 1,000 watts of power you need to add 70 amps to your current alt. Hope this helps.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by KaosTsoc; 08-18-2010 at 05:12 PM.

  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roswellien View Post
    Keep the runs as short as possible, the longer the run of wire the more resistance.
    Everything else is spot on except this bit. The resistance of a wire is constant and yes, voltage drops the longer the run. However, with reference to all car audio installs this difference is insignificant.

    Power Cable:

    On a run length of say 12 feet of 4awg cable, at a load of 25 amps (most stock alternators would give you about this much) your voltage drop would be to the tune of 0.16 volts. Most equipment is rated for 14.4 volts. Most batteries won't give you this voltage, not with all the other duties it's doing. So 13.5-13.8 volts would be average from normal batteries in good condition. Now apply this to the formula catch22 gave earlier.

    25A x 13.6v x 0.75 (amps efficiency) = 255 watts
    25A x 13.44v(with voltage drop) x 0.75 = 252 watts.

    Lowering power by 127.5 watts (half of 255 watts) would lower volume by 3db. Lowering it by 3 watts would equal a difference of 0.07db. Even the most sensitive human ear would not hear that difference.

    Same rules apply for the voltage drop on the speaker wires. As long as you're using the right gauge, run lengths don't matter.

  19. #79

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    Default okl

    Yeah I will get a new battery had been looking at the optima yellow top when I was thinking of either a cap, battery or both. Mine is old genral battery so need a new one for sure. My lights on the dash dim each time the bass hits, so need to do that, and then this weekend I will also rerun all the new wires, ground, battery and speaker. I will mount the sub amp under the seat, the surround sound amp will have to go in the trunk but that one shouldnt get that hot.

    I got my Phoenix Gold amp in today. Just for kicks I hooked it up bridged to the fosgates and that thing hits harder then the polk. I have no clue what wattage it puts out though since I cant find anything online about the damn amp, but it is called QX350.2 so maybe 350 watts x 2? Not sure, but I bridged it and its running the fosgates. The subs are in parallel 1.6 ohms so probably 2ohms. Does bridging the amp drop it to 1 ohm if the subs are in parrallel?

    Its a 2 channel amp, not sure if it could push 1 ohm stereo. Im going to see if it overheats tomorrow on way to work and back. If not I might use that one for my subs and throw the Polk on my MB Quart components, since the Polk is really clear. I would assume the PG will overheat as well though.

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    PA880.1 will not run your components. Unless you picked up the PA660.4 and I had been thinking wrong the home time...

    The PA880 is a mono (read no stereo seperation) amp without the capability of properply processing the High frequencies your components will want. As far as the PG goes I can't find any info on it specifically (didnt search long though). But I can say generally amps are named after their MAX wattage and not their RMS. IE the current PG 2ch amp the 250.2 is rated at 76x2 RMS, so if I were to make a guess the amp is most likely a 120-130Wx2 at best.

    So lets do the math

    PG 350.2 = 130Wx2 for a total of 260w RMS @2ohm
    PA880.1 = 600Wx1 for a total of 600w RMS at @2ohm

    If the PG is blowing the polk out of the water it is beginning to sound like the amp was either bad out of the box, or now has issues do to being overheated multiple times.

  21. #81

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    You are correct and the PG bridged mono should be 350 watts rms based on their current model numbering anyways. Assuming old model numbers were similar the Polk amp should be hitting harder then the PG amp. If it isn't, something may be wrong here. I'd call tech support or RMA it personally.
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    Default well

    Yeah I forgot I couldnt put the mono amp on the components, gonna have to use the PG for the surround sound, but yes with out a doubt the PG is stronger then the Polk on the subs, but I am bridging it and running 1.6 ohm in parallel fosgates with it. Not sure the wattage, cant find nothing, it is the QX which was a really decent amp, its an older amp so higher quality, higher wattage then reported, but I would have thought the Polk would beat this PG for sure.

    I got my cables in today too, the ground and power are much larger then What I have now, the wires not the insulation, but the speaker wire 12 guaage is a joke, it is mostly insulation and just a little larger then what I got, so will have to buy that seperatly.

    The PG still overheated so it has to be too low of ohms and the small wires.

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    Yeh, I personally feel you will be surprised once you get proper power to the amp/amps.
    Last edited by Roswellien; 08-20-2010 at 08:44 PM.

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    Default hey

    AT 1ohm I would love to see you keep it cranked up for 40 minutes and see if it freaking overheats, make me feel better if it does lol

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    Can say I could never even attempt it because its far to loud cranked like that, have a headache within 5 minutes with it cranked like that. I can say I've done it reasonably cranked for 2 3 hour trips so far. And like my original review says amp gets hot but never drops into protect.

    Like I said it sounds like your amp may have already been damaged from improper settings and supporting equipment.

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    Default nah

    Nah, the amp hasnt been damaged, it did it from the start with damn close to proper gain and got hot on first drive but I crank mine the whole time. Moderate level it will play all day but not cranked up at 1ohm. I dont think its even one ohm stable. My wires might be too small though and when I change them hopefully it wont get hot but the PG amp one channel runs cranked all day n night this week since I got it, but I think its once you go past 200 watts that might be when I just need thicker better wire, the SAS amp never overheated at 250 watts max, and the PG with one channel is probably 150 watts RMS, I think Im just getting up there in wattage and need better cables. Will see this week when I get a chance to run the new wires. But my friend has the Polk amp and said the same thing, his gets too hot in about an hour running at 1ohm cranked up, 2 ohms his is running all day now but he has proper wiring.

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    Default Well

    Well im part way there, I swapped out all the speaker wire, now the 12 gauge they provided was proably 13 gauge but pretty close when using the wire strippers so not a bad deal. Just swapping them out, the bass is harder, cleaner and my amp did not turn off going to work and back, but it is colder outside. Hoping that is one of the big fixes, the amp was still hot but stayed on cranking. My box also sounds better by putting it to the back of the trunk facing me the driver, which loses trunk space, but the bass hits better and sounds better in the car, sort of a wierd choice though. This weeken will replace the rest of the wires and give it a good couple hour smashing see if she holds up for me.

  29. #89

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    Default Just bought this amp PA880

    Quote Originally Posted by Roswellien View Post

    So I wanted to know how your amp is holding at 1ohm. Debating whether to wire my subs to 4ohms or 1

  30. #90

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    Default

    Can't tell if I like the plastic vs the solid aluminum(?) body of the old PA line. I guess I'll find out when it gets here. Cost is nice though and so is the size.

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