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  1. #1

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    Default Three types of record cleaning machines-which is best?

    Hello,

    I posted this question over at Vinyl Engine, but I would sure like Polkies feedback as well.

    I am starting to get serious about getting an RCM and have begun narrowing down my choices by reading through this forum. I am still unsure which type to choose, the immersion bath like the Spin Clean, the vacuum type like the KAB EV-1 or PHK, or the pressure washer G.E.M. Dandy. My budget is under $200 for the foreseeable future so the higher priced VPI or Nitty Gritty models are out of the question. Meanwhile, due to gifts and inheritance I have added about 1100 LPs to my own collection of 400. I have also renewed my flea market hunting.

    So here are my thoughts and questions for each type:

    Spin Clean: http://www.needledoctor.com/Sp.....ord-Washer

    Immersion tub allows a good soaking and scrubbing with the brushes submerged. Simple design, quiet, and a great price ($80). But is there really no residue left behind after just wiping and air drying or is a vacuum pickup really required?

    KAB EV-1: http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/rcleaner.htm
    PHK: http://www.maquinaphk.hpg.ig.com.br/home.html

    These two vacuum type RCMs would make use of my home vacuum. Is either one clearly better than the other at getting the gunk out? Are the vacuum heads finicky or as troublesome as George Merrill thinks?

    G.E.M. Dandy: http://www.gmanalog.com/gem.aspx

    This is a brushless, pressure washer type designed by George Merrill, who believes that brushes damage the lands at the top of the groove which, in turn, distorts the groove and therefore the sound. Is he right? He also doesn't like the drying effect of the vacuum which can dry out the washing fluid before it gets sucked up. Is this really a problem? What bothers me about this RCM is that it uses tap water in the pressure washer. Given the scale encrusted around my faucets it seems like a bad idea to allow even tiny amounts of tap water dry in my records' grooves.

    So can anyone comment on the relative merits of these three types of record cleaners. It can't be easy to make a fair comparison since no two records are going to be dirty in exactly the same way.

    Thanks for reading this far.

    Jim
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    I pick Mine but it's not on your list ;)
    No Way But The Hard Way, So Get Used To It!!!

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    Save your money and get a VPI when you have enough. In the meantime, try this method. It's cheap and effective.

    http://www.gallagher.com/clean_records.htm

    I'd also recommend investing in a hand held steam cleaner and integrate it in the above process.

    Edit: Jim, if hard water is a problem in your area, you can try using one of those Brita filters that screw on the tap. That should work well enough as long as you wipe up as much water as possible with a micro fiber cloth.
    Last edited by Keiko; 07-09-2010 at 01:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOOLFORLIFEFAN View Post
    I pick Mine but it's not on your list ;)

    Well they blew the horns. And the walls came down. They'd all been warned. And the walls came down. They stood there laughing. They're not laughing anymore.
    ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiko View Post
    Save your money and get a VPI when you have enough. In the meantime, try this method. It's cheap and effective.

    http://www.gallagher.com/clean_records.htm

    I'd also recommend investing in a hand held steam cleaner and integrate it in the above process.

    Agreed!!!!
    No Way But The Hard Way, So Get Used To It!!!

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    [QUOTE=Keiko;1377293]Save your money and get a VPI when you have enough.... QUOTE]

    +1
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    I bought my Nitty Gritty 2.5Fi used for $125 and sent to Gayle @ NG for refurbishing - another $75. With 1100 LPs you definitely need a vacuum based system.
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    Unfortunately, jimbo1421 you get what you pay for. I would only recommend a VPI or Nitty Gritty RCM in combo w/ the Shark or other non-spitting steam cleaner using purified water with both would be your best bet. The technique and process of cleaning can do wonders as well.
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    Vacuum system for that many records. Save your money now and you will be much more satisfied in the long run.
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    http://www.teresaudio.com/haven/clea...eaner.html#use

    Disclosure: I have no experience with this unit, but I use somewhat the same process. Strictly posting this as an FYI.

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    My budget of <$200 means I can order sooner rather than next year; waiting for more money means 6-9 more months of dirty records. Although I like the idea behind the GEM Dandy, I am pretty much ruling out any method that uses tap water.

    I think that the Spin Clean system relies on the massive dilution and rinsing power of 1-2 pints of distilled water, versus vacuuming up a few tablespoons of concentrated crud.

    Jim

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    Here is another thought on the vacuum type RCM. I live in a desert climate. Evaporation occurs rapidly here. Is it possible that the tablespoon or two of dirty cleaning fluid would be drying out faster than the vacuum could suck it up, thus redepositing the crud back on the record. Immersion systems seem to use a pint or two of liquid which would massively dilute the crud, flocculate and precipitate it, and provide a good rinsing action. After removing the record from the bath, whatever liquid evaporated while hand drying would be relatively clean compared to the liquid in the vacuum system. Is my thinking here correct?

    Jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo1421 View Post
    Here is another thought on the vacuum type RCM. I live in a desert climate. Evaporation occurs rapidly here. Is it possible that the tablespoon or two of dirty cleaning fluid would be drying out faster than the vacuum could suck it up, thus redepositing the crud back on the record. Immersion systems seem to use a pint or two of liquid which would massively dilute the crud, flocculate and precipitate it, and provide a good rinsing action. After removing the record from the bath, whatever liquid evaporated while hand drying would be relatively clean compared to the liquid in the vacuum system. Is my thinking here correct?

    Jim
    Isn't the vacuming process also used to removed the dirt that has surfaced? Some to keep in mind. It was mentioned before and I would to like to see a cleaning machine using sonic wave rather than using a vacume. Also, Keiko and many have suggested a portable steamer, wouldn't that be a risk of warping the vinyl? If not, this could also elimnate the need for vacuming, right?

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    I think that the dirt lifted in the Spin Clean process is either suspended in a quart of fluid or precipitated to the bottom of the tank. Its concentration would be a lot less than in the few tablespoons of fluid used in vacuum systems. Therefore, my thought is, dirt residue left behind after the Spin Clean process would be much less than that left behind by the vacuum process, especially if I have evaporation problems here in the southwest desert.

    From my reading here, pre-steaming an LP just helps loosen the grime before the washing.

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    re: "Also, Keiko and many have suggested a portable steamer, wouldn't that be a risk of warping the vinyl? If not, this could also elimnate the need for vacuming, right?"

    I borrowed a Wagner 905 portable steamer from someone recently. They go for about $75 street price. By the time the steam comes out the end, with the heat losses in the hose, it's only 180 degrees F at the tip, about 170F 1" away, and cools off pretty abruptly with larger distances.

    I'm guessing these temperatures are typical for the sub-$300 steamers, and since you're several inches away from the LP surface (and equally important you don't hold the steam in one place very long) I think the chances of warp are slim (unless the LP is very cold to begin with).

    You could always "pre-warm" the LP with a couple swirls of the steam across the whole LP from about a foot away, if you're worried about warping. But I tested a "don't care" LP that was at room temperature by putting the steam nozzle maybe a quarter inch away and held it in one place for about 10-15 seconds and no warping was seen. Since you never hold the steam nozzle in one place for more than a second or so when you're cleaning with it, I tend to think warping isn't a big concern. Probably even less so on thicker vinyl.

    As far as eliminating the need for vacuuming, you'd still need to towel dry it, which takes just as much work or maybe a littler longer than vacuuming it dry. But if you aren't able to rig up a vacuum, and as long as you're using a particle-free cloth, I think you'll get most of the advantages of vacuuming, and anything left after it drys should probably sweep out with a carbon fiber brush (I'm just guessing on this. I didn't try the no-vacuum method).

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    Thanks :)

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    With my Nitty Gritty 1.5FI I use a cleaning solution first, then vacuum, then one or two rinses in distilled or reverse osmosis purified water vacuuming again after each rinsed. If really dirty, a rinse first, clean and then one or two rinses after. Outstanding results everytime.
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    +1 on the VPI. Eventually, I plan to pick on up myself. But if you just can't afford it now and you just can't wait, I made one from an old turntable and a vacuum. Add some felt and a couple of brushes, and you can have a manual vacuum system for well under 200. Takes me about 5-6 minutes to clean an album, and they come out very clean and quite. There are also DIY formulas. I have recipes for a couple I could send you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo1421 View Post
    So here are my thoughts and questions for each type:


    PHK: http://www.maquinaphk.hpg.ig.com.br/home.html

    These two vacuum type RCMs would make use of my home vacuum. Is either one clearly better than the other at getting the gunk out? Are the vacuum heads finicky or as troublesome as George Merrill thinks?

    Jim
    Jim, althought I have no experience with the PHK, I like the way it is setup with one wand for automatic scrubbing and one wand for vacuuming. The vid was cool and Frank Zappa in the backround was great.

    If I had to buy one of them myself it would definitely be the PHK although I didn't see a price.

    My only complaint is the turntable platter the record is placed on. Nitty Gritty and KAB use this type of platter and I use to own a Nitty Gritty both their manual and automatic machines.

    Complaint; the platter only makes contact with the record label so any additional downforce on the record causes it to tilt and not allow the brush to make contact from the lead in bead on out to the run out groove. Minor problem but you have to be careful not to put extra presure on the record.

    Positive; the platter only makes contact with the label so when you flip the clean side of the record over, you don't have to worry about cross contaminating the cleaned side. With my VPI before I flip the record I have to put a clean cork platter mat over the first one to ensure no cross contamination.

    I would contact the manufacturer of the PHK and find out how well their motors are made, how hot they get, how many records in a row you could clean in one session, how long the motor is expected to last. Also ask if you can buy extra scrubbing brushes and vacuum tubes and how easy or difficult it is to swap them out as you may want to go through a step method as I described in another thread, especially considering you have and will be buying flea market and used records. Hopefully both tubes just pop off for quick switching. One last thought I have ask how many records each tube will clean before the felt or velvet wears out.

    I don't like the pressure washer machine because it doesn't seem to allow for a vacuuming mechanism.

    I don't like the KAB because it is manual spinning and will cause the record to tilt on the platter because you have to spin with one hand and scrub with the other. It does allow for vacuuming however.

    That's all I can think of now, I just started my first cup of coffee.
    Last edited by hearingimpared; 07-11-2010 at 08:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiko View Post
    Save your money and get a VPI when you have enough. In the meantime, try this method. It's cheap and effective.

    http://www.gallagher.com/clean_records.htm

    I'd also recommend investing in a hand held steam cleaner and integrate it in the above process.

    Edit: Jim, if hard water is a problem in your area, you can try using one of those Brita filters that screw on the tap. That should work well enough as long as you wipe up as much water as possible with a micro fiber cloth.
    Mike I know you've used this method for many moons but I just don't like it! To many things have to be done with both hands at the same time, and they are air dried which to me is a HUGE no no! No matter how much you rinse or whether you use ultra pure distilled water, there is still going to be residue and nasties deep in the grooves without a vacuum system.

    Although many people use dishwasher soap with success, the thought of it makes me cringe, can you say "residue" no matter how much you rinse?

    Not only that but could you please tell Jim how your back felt after a good record cleaning session with that gizmo?
    Last edited by hearingimpared; 07-11-2010 at 08:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo1421 View Post
    Here is another thought on the vacuum type RCM. I live in a desert climate. Evaporation occurs rapidly here. Is it possible that the tablespoon or two of dirty cleaning fluid would be drying out faster than the vacuum could suck it up, thus redepositing the crud back on the record. Immersion systems seem to use a pint or two of liquid which would massively dilute the crud, flocculate and precipitate it, and provide a good rinsing action. After removing the record from the bath, whatever liquid evaporated while hand drying would be relatively clean compared to the liquid in the vacuum system. Is my thinking here correct?

    Jim
    First off I'm not going try to talk you into a VPI or Nitty Gritty as you've stated you intentions and budget . . . you can always save up for one of them and still be cleaning and listening to your vinyl.

    To answer your question about evaporation . . . no worries there no matter how dry the climate. Just to go a little further, the typical record cleaners don't evaporate that fast plus the time from scrubbing to vacuuming goes by so quickly that evaporation is not an issue especially if you use a step cleaning method.

    I've gone back and forth with Billbillw on this about the spin cleaner. He still hasn't convinced me that using the bath over and over again WON'T take the crud from the previous record(s) and deposit it on the fresh record to be cleaned. I don't care how much fluid is in that bath, there has to be the possibility for cross contamination. One biggy that comes to mind is nicotene smoke residue, it is very difficult to break down thus keeps floating around in the bath . . . the same with finger prints. The oil once part of the vinyl is very difficult to dislodge and break down.

    I've already given you my opinion in the previous post as to what I would buy. I can tell you this, NOTHING could convince me that the spin cleaner with the record emersed in a bath won't foul up the next record to be used, thus I would never even consider buying one. Just my humble opinion. I know Bill will vehemently disagree with me.

    I've been cleaning records since the mid '70s and have tried all kinds of cleaning methods hand manually, manual machines, automatic machines, and automatic scrubbing and vacuuming machines. The scrub and vacuum systems are the best.
    Last edited by hearingimpared; 07-11-2010 at 09:02 AM.

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    BTW a steamer cleaner is an excellent idea for pre cleaning and loosening the crud and improves the cleaning process as it doesn't take as much work scrubbing and vacuuming.

    So that begs the question; Why don't I use it? I'm very heavy handed, I've used a steam cleaner many many times but still have a propensity to scorch the record. That's just me, the other guys must have a lighter touch and have using the steamer down pat.

    How do I get around not using a steamer? I use full strength Viny-Zyme Gold enzyme cleaner as my first step; full dose, i.e., ten to twelve sprays. I apply it with a 4" foam paintbrush and let it set on the record a minimum of one minute. Then I go onto my other three steps. I've very content and confident with this method as I've experimented for hours and hours trying to come up with a fool proof cleaning method that gets my records pristine clean all the way down deep into the grooves.
    Last edited by hearingimpared; 07-11-2010 at 09:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hearingimpared View Post
    Not only that but could you please tell Jim how your back felt after a good record cleaning session with that gizmo?
    That's why I invested in a VPI. FWIW, this method is effective, but also a pita. oWch! MY BACK! :p

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiko View Post
    That's why I invested in a VPI. FWIW, this method is effective, but also a pita. oWch! MY BACK! :p
    . . . um and scrapple doesn't contain pigs private parts!:p:D

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    That's disgusting, Gus. :p :D

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiko View Post
    That's disgusting, Gus. :p :D
    Yes but scrapple is very, very tasty and one of my favorite breakfast foods. Some fried eggs, scrapple, heavily butter wheat toast and I'm in heaven.

    SOS (creamed chipped beef) on toast, topped with fried eggs and then the SOS . . . yummmeffineee!!!

    I don't want to derail any further.

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    Thanks, HI, for taking the time to write such lengthy replies. I have become more persuaded that the Spin Clean method is the best way to clean a record and that vacuuming is best for removing the fluid. So I am going to order the Spin Clean tomorrow and keep an eye out for a used vacuum or build one whose sole purpose is vacuuming. Perhaps a hand held upholstery attachment modified with a microfiber slot.

    My thanks to all who replied.

    Jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo1421 View Post
    Thanks, HI, for taking the time to write such lengthy replies. I have become more persuaded that the Spin Clean method is the best way to clean a record and that vacuuming is best for removing the fluid. So I am going to order the Spin Clean tomorrow and keep an eye out for a used vacuum or build one whose sole purpose is vacuuming. Perhaps a hand held upholstery attachment modified with a microfiber slot.

    My thanks to all who replied.

    Jim
    Anytime Jim, let us know how you make out.

    Joe

    PS: I'm still skiddish about that bath immersion solution though being used over and over.

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    I hear you, HI. I am even considering getting a second Spin Clean tub with nothing in it but fresh distilled water for a real rinse cycle, followed by a fast hand dry.

    Jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo1421 View Post
    Thanks, HI, for taking the time to write such lengthy replies. I have become more persuaded that the Spin Clean method is the best way to clean a record and that vacuuming is best for removing the fluid. So I am going to order the Spin Clean tomorrow and keep an eye out for a used vacuum or build one whose sole purpose is vacuuming. Perhaps a hand held upholstery attachment modified with a microfiber slot.

    My thanks to all who replied.

    Jim
    Let me know of your impressions (some form of review) as I've been interested in a low budget cleaning appartus for a while. Like you I am budget concerned but would love to put my old collection of vinyls back in operation and slowly upgrade once I'm sure getting back into vinyls is actually for me.

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