BluRay FAIL

[Micah Cohen]

My name is Micah, and I have failed at BluRay. This is my story.

Since 1995, when I was an "early adopter," I have had four DVD players. The first was one of the original Panasonic DVD players, and cost over $400. But since then I've learned that even the cheaper players do just fine, and for about the last five years I've been using a $39 Pioneer progressive-scan DVD player that I probably bought at Wal-Mart.

It's connected to my stupendous Sony RPTV; component video direct to TV & optical audio to an antique (circa 1995) Denon processor. The picture quality is close to perfect. Calibrated regularly with AVIA, films from SD-DVD are rendered incredibly film-like. Lines are sharp, black is black, there's no jitter, and while there is natural film grain there is no artifacting, smearing, or mosquitoing. All is right with the world.

And then my wife says, "I'll get you a BluRay player for your birthday!"

I have no real interest in BluRay discs. I already own most of the great films on DVD. I wouldn't rebuy them. I'm not interested in superduper extras, Internet streaming, chat-while-watching bonus features. (All I want is the film.) But I was under the impression that a BluRay player would be a good investment. I thought the blue laser would read SD-DVDs much better than the older DVD player technology (red laser?). SD-DVDs would bloom into high definition! Brighter brights, whiter whites! I also thought that the all-digital HDMI video connection would be a great thing (and I'd keep the optical audio connected to the processor).

So we went to buy a new Sony BluRay player, the newest thing (recommended by you!). I brought it home and connected it just the way I thought I would; HDMI video direct to TV & optical audio to the processor. Then, I set about calibrating the HDMI input on the TV. After about a week of fiddling around and many A-B comparisons, I came to the startling conclusion that my $39 Pioneer DVD player looked much better than the new BluRay player.

Images rendered by the BluRay player were everything that DVD images were not. Even after multiple calibrations, changes and adjustments, increases and decreases in resolutions, the BluRay player delivered jittery, smearing pictures filled with artifacts. Yes, brights were brighter. But even after calibration, film images were just too bright, and began to look like video games! I couldn't understand it. Everybody's talking about how BluRay players make everything look fantastic, realistic, amazing! And yet, I didn't see anything I liked at all. Nothing looked film-like. Everything looked cold and digital. What was I doing wrong?

Was it merely that I was playing SD-DVDs on the BluRay player? Could this really be it? Was everything I thought I knew about how the blue laser makes SD-DVD "look better" wrong? Was HDMI just too good, rendering defects instead of images?

(At this point in the story I returned the BluRay player, and exchanged it for a newer Sony DVD player, one that also had an HDMI out. But when I got this new Sony DVD player home I discovered, to my horror, that it did not have an optical audio output. Since I didn't have a coax cable for the audio out, I ended up returning the Sony DVD player also. I reconnected my $39 Pioneer... and all is right with the world again.)

I'm the only person in the world unhappy with BluRay technology, aren't I? I'm the only person in the world happy with a six-year-old progressive scan DVD player outputting 480p via component video and optical audio outs, aren't I?

Why me?

MC

[Conradicles]

Hang it up dude and get a black and white tube tv...they are cool too.

[dudeinaroom]

I don't know, but your problem may be related to my problem with Sony. Every product I have had from them has turned into a useless collection of silicon fortified paper weights.

[F1nut]

Micah, you should know by now that the latest and greatest isn't always so.

[Face]

Micah, you should know by now that the latest and greatest isn't always so.

Let me put it into terms you can relate to.

It's like buying a SACD player and bitching that it doesn't sound any better, meanwhile the comparison was done with only a redbook disk. :D

[Nicknice]

I may have missed it but did you actually play a blueray movie? I'm guessing that the blue ray player was up converting the dvd's to 720p or 1080i. Maybe it was converting the dvd's to a resolution other than your tv's native resolution, which could lead to degradation of the picture.

[F1nut]

It's like buying a SACD player and bitching that it doesn't sound any better, meanwhile the comparison was done with only a redbook disk.

Yeah, but he's saying the DVD was worse on the new player than it was on the old one and since he has a lot of DVD's, that is important to him.

[dkg999]

Put me in the Bluray is a marginal improvement over SD DVD's category. It's certainly not the level of improvement to justify all the hype. It is an improvement, just a somewhat disappointing one.

[disneyjoe7]

I was one to say Blu-Ray play back of DVD I didn't like, and a DVD player could be better.

[Demiurge]

First, if you don't really care about better PQ, be it from Blu-Ray discs or upscaled SD-DVDs, why did you buy one (accept the gift) in the first place since it was inevitably going to be returned?

Second, I have a hard time believing that your Sony Blu-Ray player is putting out a poorer picture than your SD-DVD player unless you have some setting wrong. In fact, other than that it doesn't make any sense. I can only compare my Oppo BDP-83 to my old SD-DVD player and there isn't an SD-DVD in my collection it doesn't make look better and I'm projecting onto a 120" screen.

Probably the same reason my mom says her early 80s Goldstar TV puts out the best image she's seen to date. Insanity. :)

[Toolfan66]

Well I have done some A/B Test with DVDs and BluRays not only the disks but players as well. And the DVD's look better on my BluRay player then the 3or4 DVD players I have, also doing the A/B test with the movies I have on DVD and BluRay the BluRays kill the DVD's in PQ and SQ. now some of the BluRays they put out of older movies I feel look worse on BluRay then DVD it's like they did nothing to bring the movie to life. That's why I am very picky about what BluRays I buy. Some movies I still buy on DVD cause I don't care about the visual effects of the movie, plus I save $10 in doing so.

[Demiurge]

Yep! There is no doubt there are some terrible Blu-Rays out there for PQ and SQ. Most of them are night and day difference in quality Blu-Ray over SD-DVD, though.

I was blown away by the first Blu-Ray I played in my system and I was very happy with what I had prior.

[BlueFox]

Either the BR player was broken, or your eyes are broken. ;)

I had (still have) a great DVD player, the Sony DVP-9100ES. It did a great job of upconverting DVDs to 1080i, and only cost $1299 new. My $499 Oppo BD83 is equal or better for DVDs, and Blurays are fantastic in both picture quality, and sound. There is no way the $1299 Sony could equal BR audio or video, let alone a $39 DVD player.

[George Grand]

Tough room eh son?

What's blu-ray?

[shack]

What's blu-ray?

George, that is something the kids think is cool (maybe not for us old guys).

If you had taken the time you could have looked it up on your iPad. :D

I don't have a blu-ray either. I'm sure I'm missing something...but since I don't have it...I don't know what I'm missing. Ignorance is bliss.

[Micah Cohen]

Tough room indeed.

Fact is, everyone's got an opinion, eh?

The most important thing to me is PQ. Most important. My Sony TV has one of the best rated upscalers inside it already. I ended up setting the BluRay player to output 480i -- interlaced! -- so the TV could upconvert the image to 1080p with no conflict. The PQ -- a BD player playing SD-DVD, don't forget -- was crapola. Smeary, digital, over-bright.

Believe me, I made every possible calibration setting change, and change back, between the player and the TV, which I admit has such a deep settings menu that I probably only got to 30% of the possible settings on it. (Which begs the question: if this new technology requires such deep menu setting over days and days to make it look ok, what's the pernt? And if I need to pay someone hundreds of dollars to come professionally calibrate my TV, what's the pernt?!)

Bad player? Pshew! How many players am I supposed to go thru to get one that works? New technology is supposed to be easier, isn't it?

Now, I just have to find a simple cheap SD-DVD player with an optical audio out, and I'll be ready for when my antique Pio quits in the middle of my Halloween Movie Marathon.

George!

MC

[ohskigod]

I snagged a Sony Playstation 3 as a blueray player for the theater, and actually like the picture quality for DVD's over my old Oppo, but not by much. I'll say this, I still buy DVD's, the only Blue ray I will get is if it's a effects laden movie or something where the bit of extra clarity will pay off. I am not buying "The Notebook" on frikkin blue ray.

so I am in the "I like the player but the format itself isnt the biggest deal to me" camp. While I'm not on the same page as you in terms of thinking it's worse than DVD, I feel where you are coming from on the "whats the big whoop" front.

[Keiko]

This has been discussed. Some BD players don't upscale SD as well as others. The PS3 is said to do well at upconverting SD DVD. I have an earlier 80g PS3 and it's a good machine, but I still prefer my Yammie for SD upconversion. I own a few blu-ray titles and they are nice. There is an improvement in PQ and SQ, but a decent SD player w/upconversion works just as well for me. Consider the costs of BD discs vs previewed DVDs that can be had dirt cheap....I'm with Micah and will continue to camp with SD.

Besides, 2ch, vinyl, SACD and tubes is where it's at anyway. :p



Rock Steady! ;)

[Toolfan66]

Besides, 2ch, vinyl, SACD and tubes is where it's at anyway. :p
Rock Steady! ;)

Yep!!! I put so much in my HT,now its chop liver as my wife calls it..

When I want to watch a movie it's fantastic but I don't put any more money into it..

[Conradicles]

Could it be your TV is outdated? What is the model #?

[tonyb]

The quality of the video on alot of BRD are suspect IMHO. Sure,you have some that stand out,but for the most part, my Pioneer 59 AVI looks just as good on standard discs. I have some movies in both formats and to tell the truth, not much difference,if any. My suggestion to the OP is to try and pick up a used 59 avi,great up conversion,HDMI,optical,SACD, and for under 175 bucks used, still a steal. I'll never part with mine.

[vc69]

Yeah, but he's saying the DVD was worse on the new player than it was on the old one and since he has a lot of DVD's, that is important to him.

Which is exactly why he is going to have to spend some cash for a decent player.

Micah, I know I have posted the reasons behind what you are seeing in another of your threads regarding this issue. Have you disregarded that information? I ain't bs'n ya man.

[Keiko]

I don't think blu-ray has delivered on some of it's promises either. 7.1 audio? How many BR titles out there that are actually 7.1 and is it really necessary? You do get the BD Live and discs extras, but for the most part I find all of that useless. Firmware updates I find to be an inconvenience also. I just wanna watch the dang movie for Pete's sake.

[Demiurge]

Tough room indeed.

Fact is, everyone's got an opinion, eh?

The most important thing to me is PQ. Most important. My Sony TV has one of the best rated upscalers inside it already. I ended up setting the BluRay player to output 480i -- interlaced! -- so the TV could upconvert the image to 1080p with no conflict. The PQ -- a BD player playing SD-DVD, don't forget -- was crapola. Smeary, digital, over-bright.

Thanks for the clarification. This lead to the assumption you don't care much about PQ:

I have no real interest in BluRay discs. I already own most of the great films on DVD. I wouldn't rebuy them. I'm not interested in superduper extras, Internet streaming, chat-while-watching bonus features. (All I want is the film.) But I was under the impression that a BluRay player would be a good investment.

If PQ was most important, and cost was no concern, you would have an interest in Blu-Ray discs and you would rebuy your movies on Blu-Ray. At least in the instances where they did a good job in upgrading the image quality over SD-DVD. There are several trustworthy websites out there that detail all of this for you so you don't even have to guess.

I'm all for better PQ myself, but to me it isn't worth the cost to upgrade all of my old movies. I only did that for a select few, besides....I get the bulk of my movies on Blu-Ray through Netflix.

You didn't say whether or not you checked out a Blu-Ray disc on this player before you sent it back. If PQ is most important to you and you didn't check out a Blu-Ray I can't help but find that odd. If I were you I would get a BDP that upscales better, but alas if you're satisfied with your $39 DVD that's cool. Just know there are players out there that don't cost all that much and will put out a much better image.

[tonyb]

Once Micah gets a newer TV, he may have more use for Blu-ray, newer technologies cost money. Go to a standard best buy and see a display with a BDP on a newer 1080p LCD or plasma. I came from a Sony 60 inch HD RPTV just like you,and believe me,my pioneer plasma smoked it so bad,it ain't even funny.

[cstmar01]

I have both a blue ray player the Pio BDP-05FD and then a DVD player the Pio 58AV. Personally I do see a difference in terms of picture quality from a blue ray than a SD DVD. But then again I think calibration is important, and also the larger the image the more I notice things. Such as when I hooked it all up to my 46" TV things looked good on both. Then I used an old DVD player and it still looked pretty good.

Then move to a projector, and man that older DVD player looked like crap to me. artifacts ect all over and just terrible. Pop the same movie into the blue ray player and it looked a lot better.

Also you stated you were using the TV to upconvert the picture, did you also try the player itself to upconvert? I ask as to me there should be a very noticable difference between a 480i picture and a 720P or 1080P and if there is not with the player, then its a pile of crap IMO.

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

It's pretty simple really...

Your Pio player likely doesn't do any upconverting, allowing your TV to do all the work. The new BDP is now doing the upconversion, and most likely it has a chip that's inferior to the one in the TV.

You have 3 options:

1 - Buy a better Blu Ray player to use as your Blu Ray / DVD player. One of the Oppo players, or one of the better Panasonic or Pioneer players should do the job quite nicely. There's not a Sony player that I'm aware of (mine included) taht's going to do a real good job at upconverting.
2 - Keep your Pioneer DVD player and buy a Blu Ray player strictly for blu ray playback. Although the players vary significantly on DVD upconversion, they're often alot closer in BD playback. I'm not sure which Sony you have, but mine is an excellend BDP.
3 - Just kee-p your current player and give up on blu ray altogether.

FWIW, I don't really think you can claim to have failed at Blu Ray when you have not actually tried playing a blu ray disc, don't you actually have to try something before you can fail at it?

[concealer404]

For what it's worth, my Pioneer DV-50A that Coolsax now has looked better playing SD-DVDs than my BDP-51FD does.

But on the other hand, i didn't buy a Blu-Ray player to make my SD-DVDs look better, either.

[George Grand]

Do they use blu-ray in the movie theaters?

[cnh]

Good point Mr. Grand.

And +1, Concealer,

I'm pretty sure what Micah is experiencing is the less than cinematic quality of most BDP upconversion. If you haven't seen much upconversion and are used to the softer/darker movie theater image...then an Upconverted SD-DVD may look worse to you. I know I sometimes 'prefer' Not to BDP my SD-DVDs for similar reasons. Though I'm NOT going to tell you that an actual Blu-ray disc is not a real step up in picture and sound quality.

cnh