Cheap "Tube" stage?

[c_corie]

Is there a cheap tube stage that you can insert between CD/pre and power/reciever? Does it actually do anything? Also are there any "vintage" sounding speakers out there, that are new? I mean warm/softer top end just sort of mellow sounding. I've been listening to lots of older stuff, the Beatles, The Who, and stuff and some of their recordings through an average/cheap stereo sounds sort of.....annoying, and thin and harsh. I want to construct a smaller setup specifically for pleasing sounds from older recordings, not so much about detail and super hifi clarity.

[fishbones]

Is there a cheap tube stage that you can insert between CD/pre and power/reciever? Does it actually do anything? Also are there any "vintage" sounding speakers out there, that are new?

You're a little confusing on what you are actually asking?

And....what's your equipment? Hard to give advice when we don't know the whole story.

[vc69]

I think he must be referring to a tube buffer. I have nothing to offer on that subject except to say that I am a fan of "little as possible" in the the signal path. Period.

[Timothy Smith]

My suggestion is to try a tube buffer.

I bought a Grant Fidelity tube buffer about 1-1/2 yrs ago. One of the better $150 purchases I have made.

I have wired it between my preamp and power amp. I am on the 3rd version of tubes and it got better sounding each time.

Once in a while I will go into the basement to do some listening on my main system, and I notice that it doesn't sound as good as it usually does. Each time I discovered that I forgot to turn the tube buffer on.

It is a subtle difference, but noticable and always (in my experience) a good difference.

I know what tubes sound like since I also have tube componets.

Using a tube buffer gets you into a tune-able (tube-rolling) system at a small cost. You can also use it to give a tube sound to a large amp (200 wpc Rotel 1080 in my case) without the cost, heat, expense for replacing expensive tubes etc..

Try it.....go to the DARK SIDE....feel the power of the DARK SIDE.....

[organ]

Before going out to purchase a buffer, first tell us what you're running at the moment. Without knowing this, there is no guarntee a tube buffer will help.

[Timothy Smith]

Before going out to purchase a buffer, first tell us what you're running at the moment. Without knowing this, there is no guarntee a tube buffer will help.

Oh...I see, the old "get all the facts before offering an opinion approach"....like that ever works.

[organ]

True, most people will end up buying what they want anyways:).

So for my opinion... a tube buffer will add tube sound and can be fine tuned by tube rolling. I didn't want to post this because he said the thing he wasn't satisfied about his system is the "thin and harsh" sound in some recordings. If his source is the cause of this, a tube buffer or any speakers with a linear freq response will not solve the problem. Garbage in, garbage out.

[Timothy Smith]

True, most people will end up buying what they want anyways:).

So for my opinion... a tube buffer will add tube sound and can be fine tuned by tube rolling. I didn't want to post this because he said the thing he wasn't satisfied about his system is the "thin and harsh" sound in some recordings. If his source is the cause of this, a tube buffer or any speakers with a linear freq response will not solve the problem. Garbage in, garbage out.

I don't think he has garbage in, or garbage out. He just said that some vintage recordings can sound harsh (and some of them are harsh).

Have you ever tried a tube buffer?, or ever experimented with tube equipment?

I didn't think my system sounded "thin and harsh" before experimenting with a tube buffer, and I don't think it sounds thin and harsh when I turn the tube buffer off. I just think it almost always sounds better, more natural, more like music than equipment, with the tube buffer on.

Even with a complete list of his equipment, and even with measurements and specifications, you couldn't really predict/judge how his system sounds (you could guess), and then determine a tube buffer wouldn't sound better to him (anymore that I can be sure it will) I just said it would be something to try, at a realtively low cost, that he might like.

My advice: Keep an open mind and try to focus on the music and not the equipment, that will help you find better equipment (not necessarily more expensive) and improve your system.

[organ]

EXCUSE ME????? You're asking me if I have experience with tube gear????? Asking me if I ever tried a tube buffer??? You gotta be kidding me!
You signed up here in 09 with 96 posts, so it's obvious you have no clue! Let's see....and you've only experimented with a tube buffer?

I was one of the few who started using tubes in this forum, bud. I've gone through so many tube gear and I can't keep track of them all. You name it: push/pull, single ended, single ended triode, tube buffers, directly heated triodes, indirectly heated, pentode, EL34, EL84, 2A3, 300B, KT66, KT77, 6L6GC, and the list goes on and on. Do I need to mention I'm using a custom tube cd player?

This is an open forum. He doesn't have to listen to any of us. He's looking for opinions. If you don't like what I have to say, too bad.
My post wasn't a response to yours in any way. What if he could get better performance by upgrading the source instead of adding a tube buffer?

You're obviously desperate to get him to purchase a tube buffer by saying: "Try it.....go to the DARK SIDE....feel the power of the DARK SIDE....."

Why did you tell him this when you don't even know what he's running?

And don't give me any advice. I don't need it.

[BuckeyeTim]

I vote for the Tube buffer. I currently have a Grant Fidelity buffer between my pre and amp and really like it. My hearing isn't the best and I immediately noticed a difference. For me, that says a lot. I saw an increase in depth and width of the soundstage. I also notice more seperation between instruments.

This alone has convinced me that I want a tube pre.

"The **** be callin' me man!"

[Loud & Clear]

Might consider a tubed CD player. I have the Jolida JD-100 and I can highly recommend it. It made me feel as though I were on the DARK SIDE.

[c_corie]

I have a older Yamaha Natural Sound (late 90s) stereo reciever like 50wpc. And use either Polk Monitor 11s, or Boston HS450s, or sometimes polk Monitor 30s. And I am currently using an older sony CD player, forgot the model but it was early 90s but "good" at the time.

What I'm actually trying to do is construct a new....mini? vintage rig. With tubes somewhere in there and more mellow speakers. I'd like to stay with the Yamaha reciever but am looking for a mellow mini monitor or something, and a tube stage of some sort.

[sucks2beme]

Start with the source. So many CDP's sound like crap, it's always a good
place to start. Next up, YAMAHA. I never met a Yamaha that didn't
sound a bit off. There must be good units, but whatever models I've ever heard weren't anything to get excited about.
Watch the flea market for a better source, or maybe an external DAC.
Try a NAD integrated amp, or something similar. Tubes are for the next
step up. Or, just buy that 50wpc tube integrated and save all the countless
hours of mulling over what would sound better!.

[Timothy Smith]

You're obviously desperate to get him to purchase a tube buffer
Why did you tell him this when you don't even know what he's running?

And don't give me any advice. I don't need it.

Whaaaaa?

I'm "obviously desperate to get him to purchase a tube buffer?", I have exactly one tube buffer and it is not currently for sale. As I recall, when I bought it, Grant Fidelity had a 100% refund policy if you didn't like it, and I did not send it back.

After my last post I did look at your profile info because I wondered why the attitude.

You are obviously into tubes. That mystifies me even more. Why the "tubes for me but not for thee" attitude.

Are other people not smart enough?, didn't spend enough money on their systems, didn't suffer enough?

Does 4,473 posts actually make you smarter that someone with 96 (me), or does it mean that I "have no clue" as you so kindly put it?

As for "not needing any advice" (you probably mean just from me that is). I love music and HiFi has been a hobby since I was about 15, I'm 52 now. Many people have given me help and advice along the way and I appreciate it. I would like to think that I have given help and advice to others. It's a pretty obscure hobby, and I automatically respect anyone who shows interest in both recorded music and HIFi equipment. It is just pure harmless fun, you my friend....not so much (today).

I know that you have already instructed me not to give you any advice but here goes...."TRY NOT TO TAKE YOURSELF TOO SERIOUSLY".

[fishbones]

Thanks for listing your gear. Experience says that making recommendations without knowing where your starting from will probably end up wasting YOUR time and money, not ours.

Mid-fi solid state gear (like your using) is notorious for being a bit bright and harsh on bad recordings. There can be exceptions (like some favorites posted in this forum), but for the most part, bright. Higher end SS gear of course is in a different league, but with the question you posted and equipment listed, it doesn't sound like that's what your goal is. If you step up to tubes, you will definitely notice a difference, and you can do it with vintage gear at a reasonable cost, provided you get help along the way if you don't know what you're doing, like me (there's a lot to know).

Adding more equipment is usually not the answer. The more equipment you add, the more your original signal gets processed (deteriorates). I recommend starting with your source, like sucks2beme mentioned. If you got the Jolida tube CD player that is listed in the classifieds here, you will notice a HUGE difference. When you're ready for the next step, I would start researching on the amplification.

my 2 cents...
Welcome to the forum! We love spending other people's money!

[tonyb]

Everything the Op listed as gear is the reason for what he's hearing. You want a warmer, seperate, but cheap, 2 channel system ? Start with some used polk monitor 7's.a tube intergrated amp, and a better cd player like the Jolida. In another thread, there's discussion on a Grant tubed pre that has volume control also. Before you do anything though, decide on a budget, decide if you really want a second system or if you want to just redo the first, which may entail selling what you have and starting over.

[sucks2beme]

[/I]


Whaaaaa?

I'm "obviously desperate to get him to purchase a tube buffer?", I have exactly one tube buffer and it is not currently for sale. As I recall, when I bought it, Grant Fidelity had a 100% refund policy if you didn't like it, and I did not send it back.

After my last post I did look at your profile info because I wondered why the attitude.

You are obviously into tubes. That mystifies me even more. Why the "tubes for me but not for thee" attitude.

Are other people not smart enough?, didn't spend enough money on their systems, didn't suffer enough?

Does 4,473 posts actually make you smarter that someone with 96 (me), or does it mean that I "have no clue" as you so kindly put it?

As for "not needing any advice" (you probably mean just from me that is). I love music and HiFi has been a hobby since I was about 15, I'm 52 now. Many people have given me help and advice along the way and I appreciate it. I would like to think that I have given help and advice to others. It's a pretty obscure hobby, and I automatically respect anyone who shows interest in both recorded music and HIFi equipment. It is just pure harmless fun, you my friend....not so much (today).

I know that you have already instructed me not to give you any advice but here goes...."TRY NOT TO TAKE YOURSELF TOO SERIOUSLY".

The point he was making was based on experience. Adding a tube buffer might
not buy you anything. Too many people throw money at a problem
and decide all high end audio is hocus pocus. Sometimes there's a
weak point, sometimes it's a lost cause, start over. Are tubes always a good idea?
No. As one wise man told me, buy the best sounding gear you can afford. SS or Tube?
Don't get too hung up on that part of it. Good gear is
good gear. SS and tube both bring good qualities to the table.
Go with what sounds good and don't go into hock to do it.
It doesn't do anyone any good to buy big $$$ gear and have to sell it
two months later to pay bills.

[Timothy Smith]

The point he was making was based on experience. Adding a tube buffer might
not buy you anything. Too many people throw money at a problem
and decide all high end audio is hocus pocus. Sometimes there's a
weak point, sometimes it's a lost cause, start over. Are tubes always a good idea?
No. As one wise man told me, buy the best sounding gear you can afford. SS or Tube?
Don't get too hung up on that part of it. Good gear is
good gear. SS and tube both bring good qualities to the table.
Go with what sounds good and don't go into hock to do it.
It doesn't do anyone any good to buy big $$$ gear and have to sell it
two months later to pay bills.

(insert sound of the beating of dead horse here)
I agree about not throwing money at a problem, but telling c_corie that everything he owns is likely deficient and that he should buy some combination of a new receiver, CD player, outboard DAC, a tube integrated, maybe new speakers is throwing a lot more money around than the $100 used or $150 new that a tube buffer would cost.

Go back and look: The first sentence in his first post was "Is there a cheap tube stage that you can insert between the CD/pre and power/reciever?"

That sounds an awful lot like a "tube buffer" which I have tried for similar reasons, but mostly just curious and open-minded, and really like. Just (honestly) trying to help.

Tim

[organ]

Sorry, Mr. Smith, but can you point out where I said that everything he owns is likely deficient??? Where did I tell him to buy some combination of a new receiver, cdp, etc?

All I asked him was for a list of his gear, then you snapped because you thought my reply was directed at you. You told him to go ahead and get the buffer, while on my post I told him to hold on first and tell us what he's running. In fact, I didn't even read your post before replaying. YOu're the one that snapped and showed a bad attitude and now you're trying to make me look bad?

Now that he's given us a list of his gear, do you see anybody else recommending a tube buffer?



Sucks2beme,
Thanks for understanding. It seems nobody else have an issue with my replies except for Tim.

[Timothy Smith]

Mr Organ.

Where/when did I snap?

You are the one who said "I have no clue", referred to me as "bub", and told me that you don't need any advice from me.

When I mentioned that others had suggested buying other equipment I was not referring to you.

Try being polite. This is an interesting subject. Please don't take it personally if someone has a different opinion, a different approach, or different experiences than you.

Please lighten up.

Thanks,

Tim

[organ]

Of course I will lighten up. Constant arguing is no fun in this forum.

[sucks2beme]

A good budget cdp like a AMC cd8 or a Nad c521 series cdp
can be had for under a $100 all day long. Same with a number of
NAd or other integrateds. The only way to
find the weak link is a little trial and error. If you can borrow a
source or other component from another member, that would help.
We are troubleshooting blind here. We know he's not happy with the sound.
So at least one or more of the components aren't up to snuff.
A tube buffer is a tweak, not a fix. Adding a tube buffer to less than good
components is like putting headers on a Ford Pinto.

[organ]

+1 on the AMC and NAD. Very good cd players and integrateds at excellent prices if you buy used.

[cstmar01]

I have to agree with Organ. Look to see other problems of where he is getting the sound. Source then down the chain. I really don't think a tube buffer would change everything just like that. If other things are off its just still going to sound the same just a little bit more tuby.

If he's also looking to do a mini new system you could start over and do a vintage system for not a lot of money into it. Take your time and get the sound YOU want, experiment a bit have fun and just play, thats the fun part of the hobby. Yes some records ect could be the problem, however if the source (be it a TT or CDP) is not up to par it could cause the chain to fall flat and sound like butt.

[organ]

cstmar01,
Thanks. That's what I was trying to say.

Yeah, he did mention he wanted to start another "vintage" system. Good thing about going vintage is spending a lot less $$$ and still get very good sound.

[cstmar01]

cstmar01,
Thanks. That's what I was trying to say.

Yeah, he did mention he wanted to start another "vintage" system. Good thing about going vintage is spending a lot less $$$ and still get very good sound.

bingo. have to agree there. Great sound, not a lot of coin and always easy to resell normally.

If looking on the forum check out offerings by HB27 he often has a lot of nice vintage stuff that he will sell and finds.

[Timothy Smith]

Adding a tube buffer to less than good
components is like putting headers on a Ford Pinto.

That's amazing. My first car was a 1976 2-door Ford Pinto with a 2.3L 4-banger/4-speed manual on which I installed a header (among other mods). A real sleeper until someone smashed into the back of it and I didn't burst into flames in a fiery death.

I grew up in the Detroit area in the 70's and it was an assumed drag race away from almost any stoplight. I surprised (and even humiliated) more than a few V6's and even V8's in cars that looked faster.

I guess I have alway been a bang for the buck kind of guy.

Boy, we should talk about something less controversial like politics and guns.

Tim

[mhardy6647]

Everything the Op listed as gear is the reason for what he's hearing. You want a warmer, seperate, but cheap, 2 channel system ? Start with some used polk monitor 7's.a tube intergrated amp, and a better cd player like the Jolida. In another thread, there's discussion on a Grant tubed pre that has volume control also. Before you do anything though, decide on a budget, decide if you really want a second system or if you want to just redo the first, which may entail selling what you have and starting over.

FWIW, my 7As don't like any of the vacuum tube amps I've tried on them very much. They actually do sound better with soiled state amps (believe it or not).

[Timothy Smith]

For vintage speakers, also consider Dahlquist DQ-10's (I currently have 2 pairs, maybe disconnect the piezo "supertweeter"), or ADS (I currently have L-420's, L-570's, L-910's, Vandersteen 1's, Spica TC-50's, or even Original Advents, and (of course) Polks.

They all can be had for a small fraction of the original prices if you have patience and keep your eyes open you can find some in good condition since they originally sold in relatively large quantities new. A lot less $'s than new/modern speakers. All are enduring designs with devoted followings and support.

They all sound nice/sweet (to my ears) with either tube or SS, and on all kinds of music.

Tim

[heiney9]

FWIW, my 7As don't like any of the vacuum tube amps I've tried on them very much. They actually do sound better with soiled state amps (believe it or not).

I don't believe it ;).

H9